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Recon_609IAP
12-30-2003, 05:27 AM
Or is it just my bad aim?

I figure it's both. I especially notice this when flying the 109G2, but I have a feeling it's more than just the 109G2, it's the 20mm in general?

S!
609IAP_Recon

http://www.leeboats.com/609/sig/609_recon3.jpg
Agnus Dei, Qui Tollis peccata mundi, Miserere nobis. Dona nobis pacem

Recon_609IAP
12-30-2003, 05:27 AM
Or is it just my bad aim?

I figure it's both. I especially notice this when flying the 109G2, but I have a feeling it's more than just the 109G2, it's the 20mm in general?

S!
609IAP_Recon

http://www.leeboats.com/609/sig/609_recon3.jpg
Agnus Dei, Qui Tollis peccata mundi, Miserere nobis. Dona nobis pacem

Fennec_P
12-30-2003, 05:32 AM
I dunno. The 190A8 seems to have more than enough bang. The 109G2 might seem bad, just because it has one.

Same idea with the Yak-1 and so forth.

kubanloewe
12-30-2003, 07:26 AM
Yep, compared with these "GodÔ┬┤s own cal.50" in the P40 which can kill a B17 from behind faster and at long range than the 20mmÔ┬┤s from front.
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

http://mitglied.lycos.de/kubanskiloewe/loveponysig.jpg
"Finde den Feind und schiesse ihn ab alles andere ist Unsinn"
Rittmeister Freiherrr Manfred von Richthofen

clint-ruin
12-30-2003, 07:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by kubanloewe:
Yep, compared with these "GodÔ┬┤s own cal.50" in the P40 which can kill a B17 from behind faster and at long range than the 20mmÔ┬┤s from front.
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

http://mitglied.lycos.de/kubanskiloewe/loveponysig.jpg
"Finde den Feind und schiesse ihn ab alles andere ist Unsinn"
Rittmeister Freiherrr Manfred von Richthofen<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Can't say I find them underpowered - 2 MG151/20 shots in the engine block is enough to get thick black smoke pouring out of just about anything in the game.

As for the .50 vs the 151/20 - as far as I know the effective range of the .50 was around 1.2/1.5KM, whereas the effective range for the 151/20 was around 800/900m. Perhaps Skychimp can chime in with info from his nice new book on that :>

http://home.iprimus.com.au/djgwen/fb/leninkoba.jpg

WUAF_Badsight
12-30-2003, 07:56 AM
German 20mm has never seemed to hit as hard as other 20mm in FB to me

when i found out exactly what the MG151/20 label was representing i was amazed

also the were accurate guns as well

VW-IceFire
12-30-2003, 08:20 AM
The .50cals should have a slightly better effective range because of the good balistics provided by the heavy MG that you don't normally get with cannon shells. One of the reasons why the USAAF and the USN used .50 cals for so long as primary fighter armament.

I find nothing wrong with the German 20mm's. The MG-FF is a bit inaccurate and slow moving but then thats the way it was and the MG151/20 is quite effective. It doesn't always seem to pack the same punch as the ShVAK but that may be due to muzzle velocities or rate of fire...not sure - will have to check that one.

- IceFire
http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/spit-sig.jpg

Huckebein_FW
12-30-2003, 08:20 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by clint-ruin:
Can't say I find them underpowered - 2 MG151/20 shots in the engine block is enough to get thick black smoke pouring out of just about anything in the game.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you can show me a track with an Yak hit with 2 20mm shots from G2, got smoked without exploding, and crashland before landing you proved your point.
But we all know that it's impossible to damage Yak's engine without detroying it entirely. That makes it twice as tough, it lacks at least one step in damage modeling.

http://home.comcast.net/~bogdandone/me262_steinhoff.jpg

clint-ruin
12-30-2003, 08:57 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Huckebein_FW:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by clint-ruin:
Can't say I find them underpowered - 2 MG151/20 shots in the engine block is enough to get thick black smoke pouring out of just about anything in the game.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you can show me a track with an Yak hit with 2 20mm shots from G2, got smoked without exploding, and crashland before landing you proved your point.
But we all know that it's impossible to damage Yak's engine without detroying it entirely. That makes it twice as tough, it lacks at least one step in damage modeling.

http://home.comcast.net/~bogdandone/me262_steinhoff.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi Huckles.

http://home.iprimus.com.au/djgwen/fb/hucklesdarling.zip

Thanks.

Chalk another one up for the "incedible" indestructible Yak-3 as well there, too.

http://home.iprimus.com.au/djgwen/fb/leninkoba.jpg

Korolov
12-30-2003, 09:04 AM
Well I fiddled with it myself, a hit from the rear and thick smoke was pouring out of the top of the engine of a Yak-9.

Rest of the structure seems incredibly vulnerable though - using a G-6, I fired a burst of 13mm into the tail of a Yak-9, then one 20mm hit took it clean off.

http://www.mechmodels.com/images/klv_ubisig1a.jpg

clint-ruin
12-30-2003, 09:13 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Korolov:
Well I fiddled with it myself, a hit from the rear and thick smoke was pouring out of the top of the engine of a Yak-9.

Rest of the structure seems incredibly vulnerable though - using a G-6, I fired a burst of 13mm into the tail of a Yak-9, then one 20mm hit took it clean off.

http://www.mechmodels.com/images/klv_ubisig1a.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The rudder - not just the moving control section, but the entire vertical portion of the tailplane with it - can be taken out with one 151/20 hit. Heh.

The 13mm guns just don't seem to have the punch to break through to the engine. 151/15, .50 cal AP, UBS/UBK, are about it in terms of "weapons with enough punch to go through the tail and gut the engine out" - at least, ones that will do it easily, or before they blow the plane to bits altogether.

http://home.iprimus.com.au/djgwen/fb/leninkoba.jpg

Huckebein_FW
12-30-2003, 09:17 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by clint-ruin:
Hi Huckles.

http://home.iprimus.com.au/djgwen/fb/hucklesdarling.zip

Thanks.

Chalk another one up for the "incedible" indestructible Yak-3 as well there, too.

http://home.iprimus.com.au/djgwen/fb/leninkoba.jpg
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi ****,

This is not what I requested, that engine was destroyed. I requested a track with an smoked Yak, but with engine still running, capable to fly for at least another minute (until oil pressure drops completely). That happens for most planes in the game, but it does not happen for Yaks. This alone makes their engines very strong.

And please don't recommend me head-on passes, show me a track employing a valid tactic not nooblike lack of experience.

http://home.comcast.net/~bogdandone/me262_steinhoff.jpg

JtD
12-30-2003, 09:26 AM
Maybe this is good enough for you:

http://mitglied.lycos.de/jaytdee/burninyak.trk

Checking with arcade=1 I found no hit to the engine.

Anyway, there are different damage models for different planes. The Yak is not harder than other planes, just different.

Back to the original question: Basically all guns in FB are a bit to weak, meaning that planes take a bit more than they historically did. But I like it the way it is. The 20mm are in proportion with other guns. The MG151/20 is second in hitting power, only the Hispano is stronger.

clint-ruin
12-30-2003, 09:29 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Huckebein_FW:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by clint-ruin:
Hi Huckles.

http://home.iprimus.com.au/djgwen/fb/hucklesdarling.zip

Thanks.

Chalk another one up for the "incedible" indestructible Yak-3 as well there, too.

http://home.iprimus.com.au/djgwen/fb/leninkoba.jpg
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi ****,

This is not what I requested, that engine was destroyed. I requested a track with an smoked Yak, but with engine still running, capable to fly for at least another minute (until oil pressure drops completely). That happens for most planes in the game, but it does not happen for Yaks. This alone makes their engines very strong.

And please don't recommend me head-on passes, show me a track employing a valid tactic not nooblike lack of experience.

http://home.comcast.net/~bogdandone/me262_steinhoff.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi Huckles,

You requested - and I repeat:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>If you can show me a track with an Yak hit with 2 20mm shots from G2, got smoked without exploding, and crashland before landing you proved your point.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is exactly what is in the trackfile.

Yak.

2 x 151/20 shots.

In the engine.

Smoked, without exploding.

Crash lands, before landing.

I have, indeed, proved my point.

Thankyou for your time.

http://home.iprimus.com.au/djgwen/fb/leninkoba.jpg

Huckebein_FW
12-30-2003, 09:46 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JtD:
Maybe this is good enough for you:

http://mitglied.lycos.de/jaytdee/burninyak.trk

Checking with arcade=1 I found no hit to the engine.

Anyway, there are different damage models for different planes. The Yak is not harder than other planes, just different.

Back to the original question: Basically all guns in FB are a bit to weak, meaning that planes take a bit more than they historically did. But I like it the way it is. The 20mm are in proportion with other guns. The MG151/20 is second in hitting power, only the Hispano is stronger.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi JtD,

I cannot download the track, but if you say that it was no damage done to engine and engine died it is of course a bug. This happens rarely enough though, I observed that mostly for PKs, cockpit was untouched but the pilot was killed. Anyway..

About the MG151/20 power I stronlgy disagree. First in hitting power in FB is Hispano, then Zero's 20mm, I forgot they name, they almost always hit twice in the same spot, making a huge ball with arrows (try it!), then ShVAK, and at the end the german cannons. I did not try Ki84 systematically.

Now why this hierarchy? FB calculates shell power simply by adding muzzle energy with a generic HE energy (all shells are modelled with the same mixture power and mixture quantity). This is also valid for bullets, their hitting energy is always muzzle energy which is not correct, they speed should decrease with distance.

Ballistics is simplified but tolerable, hitting power on the other hand is completely incorrect.

http://home.comcast.net/~bogdandone/me262_steinhoff.jpg

[This message was edited by Huckebein_FW on Tue December 30 2003 at 08:55 AM.]

Huckebein_FW
12-30-2003, 09:53 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by clint-ruin:
That is exactly what is in the trackfile.

Yak.

2 x 151/20 shots.

In the engine.

Smoked, without exploding.

Crash lands, before landing.

I have, indeed, proved my point.

Thankyou for your time.

http://home.iprimus.com.au/djgwen/fb/leninkoba.jpg
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Maybe I wasn't very clear on the first time, I explained better on the second post. What I'm interested in is to see a Yak engine damaged but not destroyed, that flies until oil pressure drops completely. I can show you this behaviour for most planes in the game, but I cannot reproduce it with Yaks.

This means that you have to destroy (stop it from running) Yak's engine, you can't just damage it. This is an unfair advantage.

http://home.comcast.net/~bogdandone/me262_steinhoff.jpg

JtD
12-30-2003, 10:35 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Huckebein_FW:
Hi JtD,

I cannot download the track, but if you say that it was no damage done to engine and engine died it is of course a bug.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, there certainly was damage done to the engine. Arcade mode is just a little inaccurate, possibly some shell fragments caused the damage. I wonder why download is impossible...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>About the MG151/20 power I stronlgy disagree. First in hitting power in FB is Hispano, then Zero's 20mm, I forgot they name, they almost always hit twice in the same spot, making a huge ball with arrows (try it!), then ShVAK, and at the end the german cannons. I did not try Ki84 systematically.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Take a look here:

http://mitglied.lycos.de/jaytdee/fbg/weapons.html

This is my opinion on the subject.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Now why this hierarchy? FB calculates shell power simply by adding muzzle energy with a generic HE energy (all shells are modelled with the same mixture power and mixture quantity). This is also valid for bullets, their hitting energy is always muzzle energy which is not correct, they speed should decrease with distance.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Is this your opinion or an offical statement?

JG14_Josf
12-30-2003, 11:00 AM
"Checking with arcade=1"

Is it possible to view track files in arcade mode?

Here:

C:\Program Files\Ubi Soft\IL-2 Sturmovik Forgotten Battles

I found a file called:

conf

The file called "conf" is described as:

Type of file: Configuration Settings
Opens with: Notepad
Size: 5.48 KB

With "conf" openned I found:

[game]
Arcade=0


I changed the above to read:

[game]
Arcade=1

Save and exit.

Run IL2

Play tracks.

Tracks play the same i.e. no arcade mode.

I'd like to see for myself where the hits occur.


http://mysite.verizon.net/res0l0yx/Close.jpg

CARBONFREEZE
12-30-2003, 11:53 AM
What I have noticed while doing comparison tests of 20/37mm cannons between the LA5/F/FN Yak1b/3/9u/9t/9k P39N/Q and the Fw190 a4/5/8 is that the Yak's 20mm cannons (shVAK) generally only take one to two bullets to shear a wing off (almost stronger than the Mk108 at close range) in a deflection shot. LA5 is capable of disconnecting the He111 wing with two 20mm if they hit the correct area in the wing root. Fw190 generally takes 4x as much ammunition to do any significant damage to equal that of the Yak/La cannon power.

Russian aircraft require skill to fly.
German aircraft require ten times that skill, and one hundred times the patience!

WUAF_CO_CRBNFRZ on HyperLobby

JtD
12-30-2003, 12:15 PM
Josf, I did exactly the same and it worked.

(You have to start the game with arcade=1, if you change it while running FB it won't work.)

JG14_Josf
12-30-2003, 12:45 PM
JtD,

I just tried rebooting, then checking to make sure arcade was still set to 1.

Still no Arcade mode for tracks.

What is really odd is that Arcade mode works from the QMB.

I recorded a QMB track in Arcade mode. I saw the little arrows and the dialog balloons while recording the track but the Arcade features are missing when playing the track file.

I am using a .dll no CD crack file.

Could that be the cause?

A.K.Davis
12-30-2003, 01:20 PM
This has been stated repeatedly before, but I'll reiterate it again:

All MG151/20's in game carry a "typical" Eastern Front loadout of 50% AP shells. This loadout was often carried because the frequent need to intercept heavily-armored Il-2s. German aircraft on the Western Front typically carried a loadout with a much higher percentage of HE shells. In fighter vs. fighter combat, a 20mm AP round is not going to have a signficantly greater effect than a .50 cal. AP round, whereas a 20mm HE round is many times more destructive than a .50 AP.

This is why the other 20mm cannons in the game appear so much more effective than the MG151/20. Given a similar ammo loadout, the MG151/20 and Russian Shvak would compare closely, with the edge probably going to the Shvak.

--AKD

http://www.flyingpug.com/pugline2.jpg

faustnik
12-30-2003, 01:59 PM
Recon,

The 20mms seem pretty good to me, in fact the weapon effectiveness in 1.21 seems very good in general. A couple a/c have wierd DMs but, most are really good.

You're just used to shooting things with the 37mm on your Cobra! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

http://pages.sbcglobal.net/mdegnan/_images/FaustSig

clint-ruin
12-30-2003, 05:23 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by A.K.Davis:
This has been stated repeatedly before, but I'll reiterate it again:

...

This is why the other 20mm cannons in the game appear so much more effective than the MG151/20. Given a similar ammo loadout, the MG151/20 and Russian Shvak would compare closely, with the edge probably going to the Shvak.

--AKD

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think the other thing that contributes to the reputation of the ShVAK is the La5/7s nose mount. It seems that the rounds stagger so that one gun fires AP, the other HE, in each burst. Both usually hit at the same point on a planes damage model due to the nose mount. To do the same shot as I showed in the 109/Yak3 track takes almost twice as long, which can seem to be a long time at 900m/s closure :>
To do the same shot in a BF-109 requires you to hold the nose over the target firing the rounds one at a time.

As you probably know, from the FW-190A it's quite easy to set up good looking shots where each of the weapons hits a different section of the DM, if your shots hit outside of convergence. Almost all of the planes in FB can walk away from one in the left elevator, one in the right elevator, one in the left wing root, and one in the right wing root.

http://home.iprimus.com.au/djgwen/fb/leninkoba.jpg

Fillmore
12-30-2003, 11:28 PM
I think arcade mode only works on .trk, and not on .ntrk.

Ruy Horta
12-31-2003, 03:43 AM
Does FB use a MIXED ammo load, or a generic combined round? As in every gun having its generic shell, its damage value (table) based on calculations (based upon HE, AP and INC).

Ruy Horta

clint-ruin
12-31-2003, 04:09 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rhorta:
Does FB use a MIXED ammo load, or a generic combined round? As in every gun having its generic shell, its damage value (table) based on calculations (based upon HE, AP and INC).

Ruy Horta
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Tables of what which guns fire, and how strong the ammo is have been posted here before. But the most recent one is only for IL-2. Wish we could get one posted for FB 1.21.

Basically the damage boils down to Mass, Speed, HE content for each kind of round fired. Different rounds also have different speeds - typically heavier HE or APT rounds will travel slower than a straight AP from the same gun.

I can't find my text file of the table right now, if someone else wants to post it.

http://home.iprimus.com.au/djgwen/fb/leninkoba.jpg

kubanloewe
12-31-2003, 04:10 AM
AP AP HE HE AP AP for MG151/20 at the Ostfront ?

OK Oleg and why shot my Dora which was used mainly against Westallies the same **** ! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

"Finde den Feind und schiesse ihn ab alles andere ist Unsinn"
Rittmeister Freiherrr Manfred von Richthofen

JtD
12-31-2003, 04:46 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by clint-ruin:
Different rounds also have different speeds - typically heavier HE or APT rounds will travel slower than a straight AP from the same gun.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Usually HE rounds are lighter than AP rounds. They therefore have a higher muzzle velocity (but less energy retention).

clint-ruin
12-31-2003, 06:39 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JtD:

Usually HE rounds are lighter than AP rounds. They therefore have a higher muzzle velocity (but less energy retention).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It would be interesting to see the table from Il-2 again, since I'm fairly sure the 151/20 HEs came out slower than the APs. But again, can't be sure til I see it - perhaps something that has been corrected since the version of Il-2 the table was for.

http://home.iprimus.com.au/djgwen/fb/leninkoba.jpg

clint-ruin
12-31-2003, 06:54 AM
Here we go. Don't want to even mention how many searches I had to run to find this message, search function seems fairly stuffed on the new board.


http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=23110283&m=26610215&r=56610215#56610215
_______
Author:
Oleg_Maddox
Rank:
Creator of IL-2
Sturmovik
Date:
08/14/02 12:56PM



Here is the direct table of shells and bullets from source code of IL-2.
Comments:

power - here is the TNT, that also modelled (as well as pices of shells).

T - Tracer bullet
AP - Armor-Piercing bullet
APT - Armor-Piercing with Tracer
API - Armor-Piercing Incendary
APIT - Armor-Piercing Incendary Tracer
HE - High-Explosive shell
HEI - High-Explosive Incendary shell
HET - High-Explosive with Tracer
HEIT - High-Explosive Incendary Tracer
MG - M-Geschoss, thin-shell High Explosive

such line destinated the sequence of shells/bullets:
// APIT - AP - AP - APIT - API - API


Table itself.
==========================


Browning .303
// APIT - AP - AP - APIT - API - API

API/APIT
mass = 0.010668491403778
speed = 835.0
power = 0.0018

AP
mass = 0.010668491403778
speed = 835.0
power = 0

Browning .50
// APIT - AP - HE - AP

APIT
mass = 0.0485
speed = 870.0
power = 0.002

AP
mass = 0.0485
speed = 870.0
power = 0

HE
mass = 0.0485
speed = 870.0
power = 0.00148

Hispano-Suiza Mk.I
// HET - AP - HE - AP

HE/HET
mass = 0.129
speed = 860.0
power = 0.012

AP
mass = 0.124
speed = 860.0
power = 0

M4
// HET - (APT/HET)

HET
mass = 0.604
speed = 612.0
power = 0.044

MG 131
// HET - AP - HE - AP

HE/HET
mass = 0.035
speed = 710.0
power = 0.00148

AP
mass = 0.034
speed = 750.0
power = 0

MG 15
// AP - AP - APT

AP/APT
mass = 0.0128
speed = 760.0
power = 0

MG 151
// HET - AP - HE - AP

HE/HET
mass = 0.057
speed = 960.0
power = 0.0019

AP
mass = 0.072
speed = 859.0
power = 0

MG 151/20
// APIT - HE - HE - MG - MG
APIT
mass = 0.115
speed = 710.0
power = 0.0036

HE
mass = 0.115
speed = 705.0
power = 0.0044

MG
mass = 0.092
speed = 775.0
power = 0.0186

MG 17
// AP - AP - APT

AP/APT
mass = 0.010
speed = 810.0
power = 0

MG 81
// AP - APT

AP/APT
mass = 0.010
speed = 920.0
power = 0

MG/FF
// APIT - HE - HE - MG

APIT
mass = 0.115
speed = 580.0
power = 0.0036

HE
mass = 0.115
speed = 585.0
power = 0.0044

MG
mass = 0.092
speed = 690.0
power = 0.0186

MK 103
// APT - MG - MG - HE

APT
mass = 0.502
speed = 752.0
power = 0.0

MG
mass = 0.330
speed = 900.0
power = 0.072

HE
mass = 0.455
speed = 800.0
power = 0.024

MK 108
// HEIT - MG

HEIT
mass = 0.455
speed = 500.0
power = 0.024

MG
mass = 0.330
speed = 525.0
power = 0.072

NS-37
// HEIT - APT

HEIT
mass = 0.735
speed = 900.0
power = 0.0406

APT
mass = 0.760
speed = 880.0
power = 0

NS-45
// HEIT - AP

HEIT
mass = 1.065
speed = 780.0
power = 0.052

AP
mass = 1.000
speed = 850.0
power = 0.0

PaK40
// HEIT

HEIT
mass = 6.800
speed = 770.0
power = 0.680

ShKAS
// APIT - API - T - API

APIT
mass = 0.0096
speed = 869.0
power = 0.0005

API
mass = 0.0096
speed = 871.0
power = 0.0005

T
massa = 0.0096
speed = 869.0
power = 0

ShVAK
// APIT - HE

APIT
mass = 0.096
speed = 800.0
power = 0.001

HE
mass = 0.0676
speed = 800.0
power = 0.0068

UBS / UBT
// APIT - AP - HEI

APIT
mass = 0.0448
speed = 850.0
power = 0.001

AP
mass = 0.051
speed = 850.0
power = 0

HEI
mass = 0.0428
speed = 850.0
power = (0.00114+0.00128)

VYa
// SIT - API - API

SIT
mass = 0.195
speed = 890.0
power = 0.0156

API
mass = 0.201
speed = 890.0
power = 0.008

API
mass = 0.201
speed = 890.0
power = 0.008


-------------

If you'll ask why some bullets has TNT, its because they had explosive in warhead.



Oleg Maddox
1C:Maddox Games

http://home.iprimus.com.au/djgwen/fb/leninkoba.jpg

JtD
12-31-2003, 07:36 AM
Thx a lot, clint. Interesting to see that many weapons have the same muzzle velocity for different rounds.

Some data I have for the real MG151/20 (internet, but different sources):

AP: 117g, 720m/s
HE: 115g, 735m/s
MG: 96g, 755m/s

clint-ruin
12-31-2003, 07:58 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JtD:
Thx a lot, clint. Interesting to see that many weapons have the same muzzle velocity for different rounds.

Some data I have for the real MG151/20 (internet, but different sources):

AP: 117g, 720m/s
HE: 115g, 735m/s
MG: 96g, 755m/s<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As I mentioned in the thread I grabbed the list from, what's missing is:

Speed dropoff
Trajectory of the round
Dispersion
and again, most importantly, what it hits. A 303 is obviously going to have a harder time making it through cockpit armor than a NS45 shell.

About the masses and speeds - I don't know what unit of measurement they're done in or what data sources Oleg used to compile the list. It is quite possible that we have another "Il2 Compare" situation where there's a number that's used as a starting point by the game engine, and then adjusted by other factors later. Without those adjustments we don't have the whole story either.

A lot of your tests help fill in the missing info there.

Hopefully by the time I have my tests finished the last point [hit location / specific round type] should become a bit clearer.

But yes, the posts stating that each gun fires a generic 'mixed' round, or that all HE mixes are the same, would seem to be incorrect.

I think there have been a lot of adjustments to round speed and round mix between Il-2 and FB 1.21, but we're still waiting for Oleg to provide the exact listing.

edit: of course the other big thing in terms of 'gun power' is the ROF, UBKs and UBTs are always going to appear to do more damage than UBS's simply due to the lack of any prop sync issues. Another factor missing from the list.


http://home.iprimus.com.au/djgwen/fb/leninkoba.jpg

Vipez-
12-31-2003, 09:45 AM
HUck, No point in arguing with Clint, he is an invincible VVS-whiner http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif


__________________________


http://www.leosk.org/tiedostot/sig-pieni.jpg

clint-ruin
12-31-2003, 12:00 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Vipez-:
HUck, No point in arguing with Clint, he is an invincible VVS-whiner http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, I just don't like it when people are wrong, are proved wrong with a track, and still want to argue in a legless black knight fashion. Of course, you know all about that first hand, don't you Vipez?

From which side of the gunsights do you think I discovered you need two 20mms in a Yaks engine to kill it? What a clever little laddie you are.

http://home.iprimus.com.au/djgwen/fb/leninkoba.jpg

JG14_Josf
12-31-2003, 06:36 PM
Are 20mm undermodelled?

I think that the following should, at least indicate the possibility that yes the 20mm are undermodelled.

This is the first of 4 passes required to keep the Yak from threatening high g maneuvers:

http://mysite.verizon.net/res0l0yx/1stpass.jpg

This Yak is being shot at by an FW190A-4 equiped with 4 20mm cannons.

I am not able to run the track file in Arcade mode.

Here is the second pass:

http://mysite.verizon.net/res0l0yx/2ndpass.jpg

Notice how the 1st pass did nothing to indicate any damage on the Yak.

Here is pass number 3:

http://mysite.verizon.net/res0l0yx/3rdpass.jpg

The Yak appears to have a few small holes in the right wing after pass #2

But as you can see even after pass #3 the Yak continues to pull enough g to create those wing tip condensation trails:

http://mysite.verizon.net/res0l0yx/Still%20pulling%20g%20force.jpg

Nice looking Yak!

p1ngu666
01-01-2004, 07:58 AM
that a AI yak? then things will be differernt for it http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif
if u slow down to 1/4 speed and blip fire, u can see tracerless rounds, but u only see them hit, not in flight, so there is mixxed ammo

VW-IceFire
01-01-2004, 09:08 AM
That is an EXTREMELY lucky Yak. I've never seen such a thing happen...my wings always get torn off or my target always gets blasted away.

I don't doubt what happened there happened from the pictures (definately a good way to visually point something out) but that is something I haven't seen fighting Yak's since 1.0.

- IceFire
http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/spit-sig.jpg

Huckebein_FW
01-01-2004, 09:27 AM
Thanks clint, I missed this table when it was posted. It shows perfectly the errors in modelling.


1)HE energy in real life:

MG151/20: 18g * 2.21(PETN factor) = 39.78g TNT
HS MkI: 10.2g TNT

39.78/10.2 = 3.9 times more powerful

HE in game:

MG151/20: 0.0186
HS MkI: 0.012

0.0186/0.012 = 1.55 times more powerful

so HE power of MGeschoss shell is 2.5 times!!! undermodelled relative to Hispano shell. This is a huge mistake that has to be corrected.

2) the composition of the ammo belt is incorrect; what we have now is the ammo belt used on Western Front against bombers, we find it with FW-190 and MG151/20 gun pods (with correction that HE round was in fact HE/I or simple incendiary). The engine mounted MG151/20 had a very simple belt composition: 1 MGeschoss and 1 AP, much more effective against fighters than the incendiary rounds used against bombers.

http://home.comcast.net/~bogdandone/me262_steinhoff.jpg

Recon_609IAP
01-01-2004, 11:01 AM
Don't turn this into a yak vs 109 argument.



My question is about 20mm's.


"Basically all guns in FB are a bit to weak, meaning that planes take a bit more than they historically did. But I like it the way it is. "

I like historical accuracy - why would you want it weaker?

Maybe if it more effective you'd have less tnb'ing out of fear - similiar to how flying a 109 can be http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif It damages so easily.

However, many times in 109G2 with 20mm I can unload a whole clip with nothing but a slightly damage bandit, and other times he instantly explodes.

But those times I unload a whole clip I feel very frustrated as to why I had to use all my 20mm on one aircraft only to have him fly off and land at base - lol

S!
609IAP_Recon

http://www.leeboats.com/609/sig/609_recon3.jpg
Agnus Dei, Qui Tollis peccata mundi, Miserere nobis. Dona nobis pacem

Recon_609IAP
01-01-2004, 11:05 AM
I saw that post above, that I missed before:

" posted 30-12-03 12:20
This has been stated repeatedly before, but I'll reiterate it again:

All MG151/20's in game carry a "typical" Eastern Front loadout of 50% AP shells. This loadout was often carried because the frequent need to intercept heavily-armored Il-2s. German aircraft on the Western Front typically carried a loadout with a much higher percentage of HE shells. In fighter vs. fighter combat, a 20mm AP round is not going to have a signficantly greater effect than a .50 cal. AP round, whereas a 20mm HE round is many times more destructive than a .50 AP.

This is why the other 20mm cannons in the game appear so much more effective than the MG151/20. Given a similar ammo loadout, the MG151/20 and Russian Shvak would compare closely, with the edge probably going to the Shvak.

--AKD


"

Good post, thanks.

Question then: was the 109G2 20mm that ineffective in the eastern front then?

I just wonder if it's all undermodelled period. We have a Russian ace saying they removed all but 2 .50's because 2 50's were more than adequate.

S!
609IAP_Recon

http://www.leeboats.com/609/sig/609_recon3.jpg
Agnus Dei, Qui Tollis peccata mundi, Miserere nobis. Dona nobis pacem

Recon_609IAP
01-01-2004, 11:09 AM
Nice picture show above Josf.

I have had this same experience.

What is extremely frustrating is that after all that, the yak will come back, hit you with a short burst and your engine will stop working, your windshield will be full of oil, and your pilot will be dead.

Then you shake your head wonder how the f*** that yak survived all that - LOL

S!
609IAP_Recon

http://www.leeboats.com/609/sig/609_recon3.jpg
Agnus Dei, Qui Tollis peccata mundi, Miserere nobis. Dona nobis pacem

JG14_Josf
01-01-2004, 11:15 AM
"That is an EXTREMELY lucky Yak"

All I can say is that we must not be playing the same game. I can post this type of picture and send as many tracks as required to show how the above Yak not unusual.

I've taken a lot of hits too, much too many to be believable. These weapons were made to destroy things and airplanes are not tanks, well except maybe the IL2 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Don't get me wrong, I think the game is fantastic. But if the question is if the 20mm cannons are undermodelled my answer is that there is evidence to support that conclusion.

Since the subject of damage modeling resurfaced as of late I've taken to recording all my game play both off-line practice and on-line serious fun.

On-line I don't usually stick around for the multiple passes required to down planes so my track files are often one pass examples of my need to practice gunnery more often.

Off-line it is common to require at least 6 visible explosions with 20mm. This has it's advantages since each practice session lasts longer.

JG14_Josf
01-01-2004, 11:21 AM
Recon,

I also prefer accuracy over game play.

JtD
01-01-2004, 01:01 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Recon_609IAP:
I like historical accuracy - why would you want it weaker?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hope you read the phrase "a bit".

Imho it wouldn't get historically more accurate if you increased the power of the guns. Just different oddities. You need a more detailed damage model (maybe something like three hit zone for every single spar and a surface resolution of pieces as small as 100 square millimeters). If you want to give Oleg a helping hand with this, I'm sure he is going to accept that.

To put it short: It's not that easy.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>However, many times in 109G2 with 20mm I can unload a whole clip with nothing but a slightly damage bandit, and other times he instantly explodes.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What's wrong with that? Many times you miss, other times you hit. It's the same with me. I hardly ever see a bandit that survives more than 20 hits, usually 10 do the job.

Recon_609IAP
01-01-2004, 04:54 PM
Oleg has said before that it would take alot of system to have a DM that we want.

However, we aren't going to get that right now.

So - what is the alternative?

Certainly isn't to make 20mm weaker is it?

S!
609IAP_Recon

http://www.leeboats.com/609/sig/609_recon3.jpg
Agnus Dei, Qui Tollis peccata mundi, Miserere nobis. Dona nobis pacem

Recon_609IAP
01-01-2004, 04:56 PM
FYI: These weren't misses - believe me, I've been playing long enough to know a hit.

Would 'explosions' on many passes as Josf has shown enough indicator of inflicted damage?

I'm sure many could attest that my aim isn't too bad http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

S!
609IAP_Recon

http://www.leeboats.com/609/sig/609_recon3.jpg
Agnus Dei, Qui Tollis peccata mundi, Miserere nobis. Dona nobis pacem

Huckebein_FW
01-01-2004, 05:05 PM
After much comparative testing between the 20mm cannon in FB I'm beginning to believe that the 20mm Minengeschoss is not modelled for the MG151/20, but we strangely find it in Zero's ammunition. Half of the HE shells from Zero's ammo belt has twice the power. Anyone can check this with arcade = 1. For MG151/20 there is no difference in explosive power between HE shells, which is incorrect.

Here you can see a sectional view through German 20mm shells. The three from the right make the standard composition of MG151/20 belt for antibomber missions. The engine mounted MG151/20 fired only the last two from the right. Unfortunatelly Minengeschoss does not seem to be modelled at all for MG151/20.

http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/WW2aircart.JPG


http://home.comcast.net/~bogdandone/me262_steinhoff.jpg

BfHeFwMe
01-01-2004, 05:06 PM
Much depends on who's hosting and locations of combatants to host. You can reverse the situation by swapping who's hosting. Why I like being the host, draw back is your the magnet for every punk AI sharpshooter, but you get the most lethal bursts on target and good damage yield against all the humans.

SkyChimp
01-01-2004, 07:46 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Huckebein_FW:
After much comparative testing between the 20mm cannon in FB I'm beginning to believe that the 20mm Minengeschoss is not modelled for the MG151/20, but we strangely find it in Zero's ammunition. Half of the HE shells from Zero's ammo belt has twice the power. Anyone can check this with arcade = 1. For MG151/20 there is no difference in explosive power between HE shells, which is incorrect.

Here you can see a sectional view through German 20mm shells. The three from the right make the standard composition of MG151/20 belt for antibomber missions. The engine mounted MG151/20 fired only the last two from the right. Unfortunatelly Minengeschoss does not seem to be modelled at all for MG151/20.

http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/WW2aircart.JPG


http://home.comcast.net/~bogdandone/me262_steinhoff.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


You may be right about the 151/20's 20x82 (HE(M)) not being modelled. Anthony William's book "Flying Guns WWII" does show it to have a little more destructiveness than the Hispano's 20x110 HE round, but only a little. Because the former's higher HE content was offset by the latter's harder striking power and better penetration.

If Oleg did not model the 20x82 (HE(M)), and just modelled the 20x82 (HE), then it should be less destructive than the Hispano - significantly less.

It will also be signifcantly less destructive than the 20x101RB fired by the Zero's Type 99 cannon. This round sits neatly between the 20x82 (HE) and the 20x110 (HE) in terms of destructiveness.

Regards,
SkyChimp
http://members.cox.net/rowlandparks/skychimp.jpg

Korolov
01-01-2004, 08:04 PM
From my experiences, *all* 20mm cannons do not perform as they should.

Take the Yak-1B up sometime and use its cannon - it feels more like a machine gun rather than a cannon. Theres a similar case with just about every other 20mm cannon in the game.

If you've ever personally seen and handled a 20mm cartridge before and compared it to a HMG round, you know what I'm talking about.

http://www.mechmodels.com/images/klv_ubisig1a.jpg

JG14_Josf
01-02-2004, 12:41 AM
Hail,

For the Greategreen server I've found the need to practice specific matchups.

On my second run at the 109G6 Late v LA5 QMB match the following occured.

The first picture is the first 30mm hit:

http://mysite.verizon.net/res0l0yx/First%20hit.jpg

The second picture is the second 30mm hit:

http://mysite.verizon.net/res0l0yx/Second%20Hit%20.jpg

The third picture is the third 30mm hit and note that this is the second hit on the right wing:

http://mysite.verizon.net/res0l0yx/Third%20Hit.jpg

The fourth picture is the fouth 30mm hit:

http://mysite.verizon.net/res0l0yx/Fourth%20Hit%20.jpg

Next is a picture of the same LA5 that has endured one 30mm explosion behind the cockpit, one 30mm explosion on the left wing, two 30mm explosions on the right wing, and who knows how many non HE 30mm and 13mm rounds. Notice the LA5 is pulling g force. The LA5 was combat capable. This picture is a moment before the Fifth 30mm cannon round:

http://mysite.verizon.net/res0l0yx/Fifth%20Hit%201.jpg

Next is the straw that broke the camel's back, and this is one of the reasons why the game is so addictive:

http://mysite.verizon.net/res0l0yx/Fifth%20Hit%202%20.jpg

http://mysite.verizon.net/res0l0yx/Fifth%20Hit%203%20.jpg

JtD
01-02-2004, 05:37 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Huckebein_FW wrote:

1)HE energy in real life:

MG151/20: 18g * 2.21(PETN factor) = 39.78g TNT
HS MkI: 10.2g TNT

39.78/10.2 = 3.9 times more powerful

HE in game:

MG151/20: 0.0186
HS MkI: 0.012

0.0186/0.012 = 1.55 times more powerful
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What exactly makes you think that the chemical energy of the round transfers 1:1?
After all the most of the energy is used for light and heat, which hardly matter. Kinetic is most important and with kinetic comes the shrapnell. Shell case weight is about 77g for MG151 and 120g for Hispano. I think that makes up for some of the reduced explosives.
The numbers for FB don't have to be wrong, just because the chemical energy doesn't match.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Recon_609IAP wrote:
Was the 109G2 20mm that ineffective in the eastern front then?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, it certainly wasn't. It had the MG 151/20 used with almost all German planes, except for Bf 109-E/F-2 and FW 190 A4/A-5 outer wing cannons. Hartmanns planes were armed with MG151/20 and he shot down 350 planes with that gun. So there is no way to call it an ineffective weapon.

In one offline career I fly 109 F-4 and usually shoot down 3 planes per sortie, maximum is 6. Given the fact I only have 150 rounds and worthless MG's, this makes me believe the MG151/20 is not that bad.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Recon_609IAP wrote:
Oleg has said before that it would take alot of system to have a DM that we want.

However, we aren't going to get that right now.

So - what is the alternative?

Certainly isn't to make 20mm weaker is it?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Okay, let me rephrase it: The 20mm aren't to weak, but the damage model is still not complex enough. 10 hits for a fighter are said to have been a standard, from my testing in FB it's 11. I haven't tested this much, though. It's an average of only 60 tries. This margin would easily be compensated by a more complex DM (in fact, I am convinced that the introduction of structural limits would be enough).
After all, what do you expect from 20mm? A projectile as big as your thumb hits a machine four times as big as your car. It won't rip of a wing with one hit nor cut the plane in half (for the odd moments it would do you'd need a more complex DM). A really good hit makes a hole of maybe 400 cm^2...compared to the size of the plane this is next to nothing (for a small fighter this is something like 0,2% of the wing area).
In this regard the DM is okay. It's very hard to cause total airframe failure. However, a more detailed DM would not only register fuel tank and engine hits better than it is done now, but could also register hit's to other, smaller pieces of structure and equipment and could therefore calculate more critical hits, making the fight more lethal.
I am waiting for BoB for this to happen. The internal model for the Dornier looked very promising. I just hope I don't expect to much.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Recon_609IAP wrote:
Would 'explosions' on many passes as Josf has shown enough indicator of inflicted damage?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sure, but looking at the Yak pictures I can only count something like 9 20mm hits spread over the entire plane...again: what do you expect? That's no 100%-it-must-be-dead situation. If controlled by human it would fly like a wet towel by now, but wouldn't neccessarily crash. Only thing really missing is a smokin engine. (DM should be more complex, or just better.)

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Huckebein_FW wrote:
After much comparative testing between the 20mm cannon in FB I'm beginning to believe that the 20mm Minengeschoss is not modelled for the MG151/20, but we strangely find it in Zero's ammunition. Half of the HE shells from Zero's ammo belt has twice the power. Anyone can check this with arcade = 1. For MG151/20 there is no difference in explosive power between HE shells, which is incorrect.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Did you have a look at my testing? (link is still http://mitglied.lycos.de/jaytdee/fbg/weapons.html) Can you give detailes about your tests, please?
To my knowledge the Type 99 shells are heavyweight. Something like 140g compared to only 90g for the MG151/20. It should make a big hole. Still, it does less damage than the MG 151/20 in FB.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Skychimp wrote:
You may be right about the 151/20's 20x82 (HE(M)) not being modelled. Anthony William's book "Flying Guns WWII" does show it to have a little more destructiveness than the Hispano's 20x110 HE round, but only a little. Because the former's higher HE content was offset by the latter's harder striking power and better penetration.

If Oleg did not model the 20x82 (HE(M)), and just modelled the 20x82 (HE), then it should be less destructive than the Hispano - significantly less.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You might find the Hispano to be a poor comparism, since it is overmodelled in FB (in comparism with other 20mm). It hits as hard as the YVA 23mm cannon and 60% harder than a ShVAK- too much for my taste.

VW-IceFire
01-02-2004, 07:57 AM
JG14_Josf , I admit thats another impressive set of screen captures and although I have not yet seen a Yak take that much consecutive damage from a MG151/20 (at least not when I'm flying a Yak) I have indeed seen similar performance out of the MK108. Very strange indeed....the first hit probably should have done it in but the second definately should have torn the plane apart. But I agree that the final hit is indeed why we keep coming back http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Just a thought but the MG151/20 doesn't seem to have nearly as much trouble against the USAAF fighters. I've never heard anyone complain...whats the opinion there?

- IceFire
http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/spit-sig.jpg

Recon_609IAP
01-02-2004, 08:35 AM
I respect that reply JtD, thanks for the good feedback.

I've never seen a 20mm fired - so, I really don't know what it's lethality should be.

I do find that there is a big disparity between a 109 getting hit and, ie. the la5 above. Perhaps the 109's DM is better than the la5. Your comments about DM would be right on then - I think as a FB pilot, I simply want to see an aircraft hit hard to fly as such afterwards - not engage me in a scissor fight and win http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Then again, maybe the la5 was a tougher aircraft, I don't know much about it. I assumed it was the 109G2 20mm, but now I agree that it is more to do with the DM.

That makes it tough to 'fix' I would imagine because every single DM would have to be reexamined - unless they use inheritance http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

S!
609IAP_Recon

http://www.leeboats.com/609/sig/609_recon3.jpg
Agnus Dei, Qui Tollis peccata mundi, Miserere nobis. Dona nobis pacem

JG14_Josf
01-02-2004, 08:41 AM
JtD wrote:

"After all the most of the energy is used for light and heat, which hardly matter. Kinetic is most important and with kinetic comes the shrapnell."

Is the above statement meant to apply to the game or reality?

Here:
http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/WW2guneffect.htm

Is found this:
"The comparison between kinetic and chemical energy is the most difficult and complicated subject to tackle. This complexity is revealed by the example of a strike by a delay-fuzed HEI cannon projectile. This will first inflict kinetic damage on the target as it penetrates the structure. Then it will inflict chemical (blast) damage as the HE detonates. Thirdly, the shell fragments sent flying by the explosion will inflict further kinetic damage (a thin-walled shell will distribute lots of small fragments, a thick-walled shell fewer but larger chunks), and finally the incendiary material distributed by the explosion may cause further chemical (fire) damage."

Here:
"http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/ideal.htm"

Is this:
"The Germans developed a new type of shell made by drawing from a disk of steel, just as cartridge cases are made. These projectiles were thin-walled and much lighter overall, yet had far more room for chemicals. Their large capacity led to them being called "mine shells", or Minengeschoss (M-Geschoss for short). The standard 20mm M-Geschoss weighed only 92g yet held 18-20g of HEI chemicals, doubling the blast/incendiary effect."

Here:
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/8217/fgun/fgun-fi.html

This:
"Occasionally, firepower effectiveness was measured experimentally. The Germans famously determined that a large sturdy bomber such as a B-17 or B-29 could be shot down with 20 hits of 20mm ammunition, three hits with 30mm HE ammunition, or one single 55mm hit."



JtD wrote:

"Sure, but looking at the Yak pictures I can only count something like 9 20mm hits spread over the entire plane...again: what do you expect?"

How many actual hits does the Yak take including any AP, incindary etc.?


JtD wrote:

"A projectile as big as your thumb hits a machine four times as big as your car."

When an explosion occurs inside a contained area the result is a pressure increase. How much pressure increase can the aluminum or delta wood airplanes contain?

A small entry hole is not going to allow much room to relieve the pressure build up.

Something gives and I think that that is what makes explosive shells effective against aircraft.

Small hole in.

Big explosion.

Too much pressure for the Aircraft to contain.

Something gives that causes the plane not to fly so good anymore.

I think an ME109 is slightly larger than a Yak.

The two Me109s I saw are small airplanes. They have less room to contain large explosions than the cab in my F150 pick up truck.

P.S. I would not want to be in my F150 pick up truck as a 20mm M-Geschoss round goes off inside.
I suspect the windows would blow out before the doors would blow off and then the heater wouldn't work so good anymore.

WUAF_Badsight
01-02-2004, 08:50 AM
JG14_Josf id love to see the pics you posted but mysite doesnt work for me when someone uses it here

dunno why , even using the pics URL doesnt take me to the pic just "The page cannot be displayed"



<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JG14_Josf:
Are 20mm undermodelled?

I think that the following should, at least indicate the possibility that yes the 20mm are undermodelled.

This is the first of 4 passes required to keep the Yak from threatening high g maneuvers:

http://mysite.verizon.net/res0l0yx/1stpass.jpg

This Yak is being shot at by an FW190A-4 equiped with 4 20mm cannons.


http://mysite.verizon.net/res0l0yx/2ndpass.jpg



Here is pass number 3:

http://mysite.verizon.net/res0l0yx/3rdpass.jpg

The Yak appears to have a few small holes in the right wing after pass #2

But as you can see even after pass #3 the Yak continues to pull enough g to create those wing tip condensation trails:

http://mysite.verizon.net/res0l0yx/Still%20pulling%20g%20force.jpg

Nice looking Yak!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

JG14_Josf
01-02-2004, 08:55 AM
WUAF_Badsight,

Have you tried to cut and past the URL to a new browser window?

They work for me when clicking on the URL in your post above.

Does your copy of IL2/FB allow track playing in arcade mode? Mine does not. Do you use a No CD crack .dll file?

I can send the track files that generated the pictures posted. I can even send the .jpg files directly if you wish:

josf.kelley@verizon.net

IVJG51_Swine
01-02-2004, 09:17 AM
I have to say that after reading Black Cross/Red Star I was really surprised at the descriptions given by LW pilots in regards to their kills. Throughout the book they described giving IL-2s and other aircraft, "short bursts" from their F models resultng in their destruction. Thats definitely not the case in your typical day to day IL-2/FB HL arena.

[This message was edited by IVJG51_Swine on Fri January 02 2004 at 08:38 AM.]

JtD
01-02-2004, 01:37 PM
2 JG14_Josf:

I have a copy of a very detailed German test report on my computer. I'll just post some facts from it.
They tested a 20mm HE shell of MG C 30 (I have no idea what that is exactly, but it's 20mm.)
Some noted effects:

Entry side: Small, projectile sized holes only.
Exit side: Different results depending on distance and material.

Blast: Will only do significant damage to textile surfaces, if the surfaces are close. (200mm and less)
Won't damage 0.6mm low quality steel metal sheet even if surfaces are only 100mm apart, like in thin wings. (Duraluminium used for plane construction can take about the same stress.)
Will do significant damage to plywood if it's close together. No damage if further apart.

From all the test they did there was none where blast actually damaged metal.

Shrapnell: Makes holes basically nondependent on material. Fuse has high AP capabilities. Can damage up to 400 cm^2 of surface. (15 times the shells surface area.)

Looking at it from the physics side: If all the Energy in the explosive of the MG 151/20 HE shell was used to heat up the air, you could increase the temperature of 1 m^3 by about 100K. Assuming the temperature was around 300K this would increase total air preassure by 1/3. So don't worry about your car. :-)

SKULLS_LZ
01-02-2004, 01:42 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by IVJG51_Swine:
I have to say that after reading Black Cross/Red Star I was really surprised at the descriptions given by LW pilots in regards to their kills. Throughout the book they described giving IL-2s and other aircraft, "short bursts" from their F models resultng in their destruction. Thats definitely not the case in your typical day to day IL-2/FB HL arena.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

On the other hand, in RL LW pilots might only get 1 or 2 or 3 kills in a week of flying, but when I go online almost every sortie, or every other sortie, results in a kill or two. My examples from yesterday:

Flew Coop with Blitzpig_Zip (hope I got that name right). 1942 historical scenario, I flew 109 F4: 2 kills (AI, not sure what AC type).

Flew in VFC*Host, 1942 Axis v Allies, I flew 190 A4: ~8 sorties (about 2 hours total), 5 or 6 kills.

So I'm really confused. We seem to have proof that the 20mm's are too weak, yet people are able to consistently get more kills with it in FB than in RL. Personally I think for game balance purposes, FB has it just right. As JG14_Josf observes, whatever inaccuracies there are sure don't seem to make it less addictive!

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.jwilliamsmusic.it/belushi.jpg
Yeah I vulched ya. Now put a cork in it and pick another base before I bust a c@p in your sorry @ss.

Recon_609IAP
01-02-2004, 01:55 PM
Actually, I don't think we have any proof that 20mm are too weak.

We just have proof that the DM is not as complex for all aircraft as we'd like.

I'd say the most complex DM is for the 109 right now.

Perhaps in BoB, we'll see a more complex DM.

S!
609IAP_Recon

http://www.leeboats.com/609/sig/609_recon3.jpg
Agnus Dei, Qui Tollis peccata mundi, Miserere nobis. Dona nobis pacem

JG14_Josf
01-02-2004, 02:37 PM
JtD wrote:

"So don't worry about your car. :-)"

For all I know you have much more knowledge on the subject than I do however I will continue to delude myself into believing that explosives going off in my truck will tend to make a mess of things, even insignificant explosions like the ones that a 20mm HE round from a WWII German fighter plane could manage.

Am I to conclude from your post that in fact a typical 20mm HE round fired from a German fighter plane in WWII did not cause any significant damage due to internal pressure increases resulting from the release of chemical energy?

Does your post prove that in order for the chemical energy of an HE 20mm round fired from a typical WWII German fighter plane to cause any damage due to pressure increases the target area must be less than 100mm (3.94 inches) apart and be weaker than low quality steel, duraluminium or ply-wood?

I am sceptical.

If your post is intended to prove how ineffective 20mm HE chemical explosive power was for WWII German fighter planes then in my opinion it is lacking.

Can you define "German test report" a litte better and is it possible to find out what is: MG C 30?

I want to learn.

JtD
01-03-2004, 03:55 AM
"Am I to conclude from your post that in fact a typical 20mm HE round fired from a German fighter plane in WWII did not cause any significant damage due to internal pressure increases resulting from the release of chemical energy?"

I'd say yes. But most of all I am trying to say: it's not that easy. There are to many factors involved.

"Does your post prove that in order for the chemical energy of an HE 20mm round fired from a typical WWII German fighter plane to cause any damage due to pressure increases the target area must be less than 100mm (3.94 inches) apart and be weaker than low quality steel, duraluminium or ply-wood?"

I am not proving this. I can only say the test result is like that. Most damage done was by shrapnell.

"If your post is intended to prove how ineffective 20mm HE chemical explosive power was for WWII German fighter planes then in my opinion it is lacking."

I pesonally am convinced that 20mm cannons were the best air to air weapons in WW2 and the German weapons compare well in this class. I am far from saying they were ineffective. However, it's wrong to expect frequent one shot kills from 20mm.

"Can you define "German test report" a litte better and is it possible to find out what is: MG C 30?"

Forschungsbericht FB 505, "Beitr├┬Ąge ├╝ber die Geschosswirkung an Flugzeugen und Flugzeugbauteilen unter besonderer Ber├╝cksichtigung der 20mm Sprenggranate" from "Zentrale f├╝r wissenschaftliches Berichtswesen ├╝ber Luftfahrtforschung". I am convinced you can find it on the web.

MG C 30 was a AAA gun, i.e. mounted on German Ships. It fired a 115g projectile. Same gun as KwK (Kampfwagenkanone-Tankcannon) version was also used in tanks and armored vehicles, i.e. Pz. II and Sd.Kfz. 222 and 231. Muzzle velocity for this version is about 850 m/s.
(Wow, didn't expect to find anything in my very few books. To lazy to search the web at the moment.)

JG14_Josf
01-03-2004, 12:32 PM
JtD wrote:

"However, it's wrong to expect frequent one
shot kills from 20mm."

Yes, I too suggest that you do not expect frequent one shot kills from 20mm in IL2/FB.

As to your post concerning the tests of the AAA weapon; I do not speak German.

From here:
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/8217/fgun/fgun-am.html

is this:

"HE. High Explosive rounds were traditionally made by boring out the core of a solid projectile, then filling it with explosive. The German Minengescho├č rounds introduced a different manufacturing technique: A thin shell was drawn, in the same way as a cartridge case is drawn. This resulted in a much larger explosive capacity for the same calibre, and became widespread after the war. It is commonly assumed that HE ammunition is really effective only in calibres of 20mm or larger, but it was also made for 12.7mm and even rifle-calibre weapons."


Did the AAA gun test test the same type of HE round as the one used by German WWII fighter planes? It appears to me that the Fighter aircraft weapon was made for blowing things up, not penetrating, not burning things, and not producing a lot of schrapnel. If you have specific information that can confirm my error then please post it. I will look around myself.

Thanks.


From this book:

Fighter Aces of the Luftwaffe
by Raymond F. Tliver and Trevor J. Constable
USBN: 0-88740-909-1

page 124-125

Chapter 6: The 300 CLUB

"My only tactic was to wait until I had the chance to attack the enemy and then close in at high speed. I opened fire only when the whole windshield was black with the enemy. Wait! Wait! - until the enemy covers your windshield. Then not a single shot goes wild. The farther you get away from the enemy, the less impact and penetration your projectiles have. With the tactic I have described, the enemy aircraft absorbs the full force of your armament at minimum range, and it doesn't matter what your angle is to him and whether or not you are in a turn or any other maneuver. When all your guns hit him like this, he goes down! And you have saved your ammunition."

file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Joe/My%20Documents/My%20Webs/Guncam.jpg

The above is a close in attack firing all guns from a 190A-8 on a Yak. The Yak continued to present a formidable threat after this attack.

In my opinion there is evidence that suggests to me an undermodeling of 20mm destructive power in the game.

When shooting close in high aspect shots from 2 13mm machine guns and 4 20mm cannons and hitting a light weight fighter plane from nose to tail my limited understanding suggests that something bad should happen to the plane being shot.

Here is a picture of a plane that withstood another close in hail from all guns. This one eventually went down.

http://mysite.verizon.net/res0l0yx/Close.jpg

JG14_Josf
01-03-2004, 02:09 PM
http://pages.zdnet.com/vancell/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/talflakx.jpg

The above picture was found here:
B-26 (http://pages.zdnet.com/vancell/b26tailgunner/id12.html)

The caption reads:

"Tail damaged by an enemy fighter's 20mm cannons."

and this sobering quote:

"Unfortunately the tail gunner was killed in this attack by enemy fighters."

http://pages.zdnet.com/vancell/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/320blu4z.jpg

"Attack by a Me 262 jet on this 320th Bomb Group B26 left wing is damaged by 20mm cannon"

Hey, I didn't write the caption. The pictures seem to indicate something.

If anyone is interested go here:
Unforgetable mission (http://pages.zdnet.com/vancell/b26tailgunner/id18.html)

Look up the Captain Lew Case 1944 mission story

War doesn't have to be Hell, all the time.

SkyChimp
01-03-2004, 03:51 PM
If it was an attack by an Me-262, that's not 20mm damage.

I suspect the top picture is 30mm damage, the lower is 20mm damage.

Regards,
SkyChimp
http://members.cox.net/rowlandparks/skychimp.jpg

Aaron_GT
01-03-2004, 05:40 PM
Huckebein - the MG151/20 MG round may have
nearly 4 times the TNT in it, whilst the
'power' factor in the game may only be 1.55
times that of the Hispano round, but this
may be accurate. For one thing, we don't know
all the factors that the 'power' factor encodes.
Secondly, even if it is just a measure of
explosive power, quadrupling the amount of
explosives in the round doesn't necessarily
mean that it blows things up four times as well.
It is more likely to a much lower order
relationship.

Ugly_Kid
01-04-2004, 12:33 AM
This is normal 20 mm Minengeshoss hit, without "Zerleger" and normal detonator:

http://people.freenet.de/hausberg/0123.jpg
This is then with Zerlegerdetonator (ZZ1505) left and even more improved latewar design with delayed explosion right:

http://people.freenet.de/hausberg/0122.jpg
(Interestingly it also says that the accuracy was extraordinary good, from 100m distance 50% of all the shots where within an area of 15x15 cm)

Jippo01
01-04-2004, 02:47 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Aaron_GT:
For one thing, we don't know
all the factors that the 'power' factor encodes.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


In fact we know that the power is the explosive force translated in to TNT. Germans used "higher" explosives, so higher "power" value is the amount of explosive times the power of the explosive in TNT (relative number).


-jippo

LeLv28 - Fighting for independency since 2002
http://www.lelv28.com

Falkster's Ju-88 fan site:
www.ju88.de.tf (http://www.ju88.de.tf)

Jippo01
01-04-2004, 02:50 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JtD:
What exactly makes you think that the chemical energy of the round transfers 1:1?
After all the most of the energy is used for light and heat, which hardly matter. Kinetic is most important and with kinetic comes the shrapnell. Shell case weight is about 77g for MG151 and 120g for Hispano. I think that makes up for some of the reduced explosives.
The numbers for FB don't have to be wrong, just because the chemical energy doesn't match.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Power doesn't transfer 1:1, but I very much disagree with this one. I don't think you are right about light and heat bit. Pressure is very important factor too along the shrapnel.


-jippo

LeLv28 - Fighting for independency since 2002
http://www.lelv28.com

Falkster's Ju-88 fan site:
www.ju88.de.tf (http://www.ju88.de.tf)

Vipez-
01-05-2004, 10:12 AM
This is a nice read about 109 Ammo effectiviness: http://www.virtualpilots.fi/hist/109myths/#weapons


__________________________


http://www.leosk.org/tiedostot/sig-pieni.jpg

A.K.Davis
01-05-2004, 10:33 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Recon_609IAP:
I saw that post above, that I missed before:

" posted 30-12-03 12:20
This has been stated repeatedly before, but I'll reiterate it again:

All MG151/20's in game carry a "typical" Eastern Front loadout of 50% AP shells. This loadout was often carried because the frequent need to intercept heavily-armored Il-2s. German aircraft on the Western Front typically carried a loadout with a much higher percentage of HE shells. In fighter vs. fighter combat, a 20mm AP round is not going to have a signficantly greater effect than a .50 cal. AP round, whereas a 20mm HE round is many times more destructive than a .50 AP.

This is why the other 20mm cannons in the game appear so much more effective than the MG151/20. Given a similar ammo loadout, the MG151/20 and Russian Shvak would compare closely, with the edge probably going to the Shvak.

--AKD


"

Good post, thanks.

Question then: was the 109G2 20mm that ineffective in the eastern front then?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Versus Il-2s? Yes. (This is not to say many Il-2s were not shot down with single 20mm, but it was not adequate for such a heavily armored target). Versus other fighters? NO. A single MG151/20 was more than adequate in the hands of a good marksman.

--AKD

http://www.flyingpug.com/pugline2.jpg

aGunfighter
01-05-2004, 10:43 AM
In regards to the pictures of the Yak above-- I see that all the time online flying an FW.
I also switched to the red side to even up teams and took a headon 30mm hit from a 109 while flying a p-51 with absolutely NO effect.

JtD
01-05-2004, 12:35 PM
I am getting tired of this discussion.

Someone on the German forum posted this link, it has a lot of info.

http://prodocs.netfirms.com/index.htm

Enjoy reading.

JG14_Josf
01-05-2004, 01:40 PM
Thanks JtD that is a very good site.

http://www.axishq.wwiionline.com/~ring/info/damagepics/108vsbrit.GIF

Aaron_GT
01-06-2004, 04:07 AM
jippo01 - without a statement from Oleg
on exactly what 'power' represents, or a look
at the code, I stil don't think we can say
exactly what the 'power' factor encodes.
I would suspect that it is more likely to
be a combination of all factors (but not
necessarily limited to) relating to explosive
power, rather than just a measure of the
amount of explosive in a projectile. Explosive
effectiveness is not linearly related to the
amount of explosive in a projectile, nor
are all explosives the same, so it would
make most sense in terms of the coding
for the power factor to be an overall
measure for a particular projectile, with
the effectiveness calculated outside the
sim itself. In addition there is no
'fragmentation power' either, so the
power factor also has to take into account
the difference between many small fragments
powerered by a larger explosive charge
(e.g. MG151/20 MG round) and larger
fragments powered by a smaller charge (Hispano
round). So a 1.55x relationship between
MG151/20 MG and Hispano rounds, even given
4 times the amount of explosives in the MG151
round would not necessarily be unreasonable -
it would all depend on an assessment of
round effectiveness from tests.

Jippo01
01-06-2004, 04:20 AM
I think that was Oleg's statement when he posted the gun efficiency listing. Explosive power is counted in relative number counting in the different types of explosives used in different rounds.


-jippo

LeLv28 - Fighting for independency since 2002
http://www.lelv28.com

Falkster's Ju-88 fan site:
www.ju88.de.tf (http://www.ju88.de.tf)

Ring-
01-06-2004, 03:42 PM
the prodocs page is mine...


Ugly_Kid
do you have any info on the delays on the fuse's??


also the HE KE info on the shells

http://www.axishq.wwiionline.com/~ring/info/ammo/ww2ol-weapons.htm

MG 151-20
20mm AP 30326.40
20mm HEI with 3.6g PETN 52703.26
20mm Minengeschoss with 18g PETN 135277.79
20mm Mine XM "Compresed" with 25g PETN 176125.30


(from "Principles of Naval Weapons Systems", edited by D.R.Frieden)
Strength of TNT: 2.72*10 to the power of 6,(in Joules per Kilogram),
the following values are with respect to TNT.

TNT= 1 2720000
RDX: 1.94 RDX= 1 5276800
Amatol(80/20): 1.24 AM 80/20= 1 3372800
PETN: 2.21 PETN = 1 6011200
Pertite (= Picric Acid): 1.11 Pertite = 1 3019200
MDN (Melinite {= Picric Acid} / Dinitronaphthalene 80/20): 0.88 MDN = 1 2393600
DD (Dinitronaphthalene/Dinitrophenol 60/40): 0.75 DD = 1 2040000
MMN (Melinite {= Picric Acid} / Mononitronaphthalene 70/30): 0.82 MMN = 1 2230400
Tetryl: 1.39 Tetryl = 1 3780800
Comp A: 1.6 Comp A = 1 4352000
Torpex: 1.5 Torpex = 1 4080000

JtD
01-07-2004, 01:59 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ring-:

the prodocs page is mine...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Very good page. Where did you get all the documents from?

Ugly_Kid
01-07-2004, 08:10 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ring-:
the prodocs page is mine...


Ugly_Kid
do you have any info on the delays on the fuse's??


<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No sorry it only says in the text that with delay fuse VC the ignition flame got directed via different channels to the actual charge, which produced the desired delay. With VC it was possible to reach delay for all cases, which means also wings with thick skin, so that explosion occured inside the structure. How long this delay time was is not mentioned.

Ring-
01-07-2004, 03:00 PM
JtD
i have colected all over for a few years now in doing research for www.wwiionline.com (http://www.wwiionline.com) chully and smallwoy from ww2ol live near the PRO and have benn going there now for the last month getting more info..

when i have time ill put up a german ammo page..

BigganD
04-09-2004, 04:09 PM
Guys Dont worry, i have news from beta testers (2.01 beta3) they say that the 20mm are very good and they are fixed now.. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

No one is an ace!

609IAP_Recon
04-09-2004, 04:17 PM
Thanks everyone - I have found out since that some of this had to do with a online issue that will be addressed in the patch as stated above.

I did notice a big difference in AEP vs. 1.22, and I am glad to see it being rectified in the patch.

Salute!

JG50_Recon

----
http://www.thepassionofthechrist.com