PDA

View Full Version : @ Robban and Kyrule -- 190 Question



Zen--
02-05-2004, 10:26 AM
S~ Gentlemen, hoping you can help me out here.

What are the details on the version of the 190 with added armor used to attack B17 formations? I believe this was an A7 variant that was approx 200 kg heavier, had the additional armored windscreen...but thats about all I know or can recall. (I think a long time ago I even knew it's name, but 20 years makes everything seem hazy lol)

If either of you could enlighten me, I would be most appreciative. You are two of the forum members I enjoy reading the most and I trust your information, as well as the way it is presented.


S!!

-Zen-
Formerly TX-Zen

Zen--
02-05-2004, 10:26 AM
S~ Gentlemen, hoping you can help me out here.

What are the details on the version of the 190 with added armor used to attack B17 formations? I believe this was an A7 variant that was approx 200 kg heavier, had the additional armored windscreen...but thats about all I know or can recall. (I think a long time ago I even knew it's name, but 20 years makes everything seem hazy lol)

If either of you could enlighten me, I would be most appreciative. You are two of the forum members I enjoy reading the most and I trust your information, as well as the way it is presented.


S!!

-Zen-
Formerly TX-Zen

p1ngu666
02-05-2004, 10:29 AM
extra armour around cockpit and engine too maybe
think atleast some had the mg's removed on the engine cowl

robban75
02-05-2004, 12:40 PM
Thank you for those kind words Zen, I sure hope I can help you out here! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Perhaps the version you are looking for is the Fw 190A-7/R2s or the Fw 190A-8/R8 Sturmbock, perhaps more known as Rammjager.

The Focke-Wulf Fw 190A-8/R8 variant was designed as the ultimate heavily armed and armoured anti-bomber aircraft. The heavy cowl ring and air-cooled engine already suited the Fw 190 to the task. Typical additional equipment included 30mm cannon fitted to the wings; with additional steel plates on the fuselage and thick armoured glass secured to the canopy. Some R8s had the cowl armament removed and the cowl troughs faired over, while others were fitted with air-to-air rockets.
However, there were a number of variations in armour and armament to this basic configuration. Also, many Fw 190A-8/R2s and Fw 190A-7/R2s were fitted with similar equipment.

Is this it?

http://members.chello.se/unni/Dora-9-3.JPG

When it comes to aircombat, I'd rather be lucky than good any day!

A.K.Davis
02-05-2004, 12:52 PM
Rammjager referred to the volunteer units that committed themselves to pressing home attacks to the point of ramming. Sturmbock ("battering ram") was a nickname for the heavily armed and armored 190. Sturmbocks were typically used by the sturmgruppen, which specialized in heavy bomber interception. I assume sturmjager would be a sturmgruppen fighter. Not sure if rammjager and sturmjager are interchangeable. Sturmgruppen, however, were not necessarily equipped only with sturmbocks, nor was there consistency in the modifications applied to the unit's aircraft. Some had more armor, some had more armament. Some had both.

From A-6 on:

/R2 - mk108 cannons in the outer wing position

/R7 - additional armor

/R8 - combination of R2 and R7

There were many variations on these modifications, however. For example, it is not uncommon to see photos of Antons with the applique armor on the fuselage sides, but without the additional armored glass panels. And, as noted, some had the cowl 13mm's removed while others did not.

http://www.jg300.de/images/IIJG300/Staffel6/Gelbe5.jpg

In this photo, you can see the line of the armor plate just to the left of the man on the right's left arm. But there does not appear to be additional armor on the canopy or windscreen.

--AKD

http://www.flyingpug.com/pugline2.jpg

[This message was edited by A.K.Davis on Thu February 05 2004 at 12:08 PM.]

Zen--
02-05-2004, 02:56 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by robban75:
Thank you for those kind words Zen, I sure hope I can help you out here! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Perhaps the version you are looking for is the Fw 190A-7/R2s or the Fw 190A-8/R8 Sturmbock, perhaps more known as Rammjager.

The Focke-Wulf Fw 190A-8/R8 variant was designed as the ultimate heavily armed and armoured anti-bomber aircraft. The heavy cowl ring and air-cooled engine already suited the Fw 190 to the task. Typical additional equipment included 30mm cannon fitted to the wings; with additional steel plates on the fuselage and thick armoured glass secured to the canopy. Some R8s had the cowl armament removed and the cowl troughs faired over, while others were fitted with air-to-air rockets.
However, there were a number of variations in armour and armament to this basic configuration. Also, many Fw 190A-8/R2s and Fw 190A-7/R2s were fitted with similar equipment.

Is this it?

http://members.chello.se/unni/Dora-9-3.JPG

When it comes to aircombat, I'd rather be lucky than good any day!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Yes, that is exactly what I was looking for! Thanks very much. For some reason I couldn't clear the cobwebs out of my mind on this one. As always, the information you have is spot on robban, ty.

AK, thanks also for posting your information and that excellent photo. Part of the reason I was having difficulty recalling the details was because of how many ad-hoc variants of FW there are...production changes, field modifications etc. I knew there was some form of 'semi-official' heavy attack version of the 190, but couldn't recall what basic model the type was.

Thanks to both of you gentlemen, S!!!!

-Zen-
Formerly TX-Zen

kyrule2
02-05-2004, 09:19 PM
Doh, sorry I missed this one Zen.



Just some additional info on armor:

-4mm plates above and below outboard 30mm cannon magazines.

-20mm plate in front of outboard 30mm cannon magazines.

-30mm bullet-proof glass on sides of canopy, often referred to as "blinkers."

-5mm plates on side of cockpit on fuesalage, as seen in pics above.

-5mm plate just below windscreen inside fuesalage, basically protecting the pilots torso area.

-4mm plate extending from base of 5mm plate mentioned just above. Seems this would protect the lower torso/leg area from shots from above.

-Increased armor around nose-ring.

-Increased armor behind pilots head.

-In total it was about 440lb.s heavier than standard A-8.


"....with our extra armor, suprisingly few of our aircraft were knocked down by the bomber's return fire. Like the armoured knights of the middle ages, we were well protected."

Lt. Walther Hagenah of IV(Sturm) Gruppe of JG3.



Thanks for the kind words also Zen, sorry I didn't see this earlier.


http://www.brooksart.com/Icewarriors.jpg

"Ice Warriors" by Nicolas Trudgian

kyrule2
02-06-2004, 01:03 AM
Bump for Mr. Zen.

http://www.brooksart.com/Icewarriors.jpg

3./JG51_Hunde
http://www.jg51.com/

robban75
02-06-2004, 08:38 AM
While on the topic of the A's, has anyone here bought the latest book by Dietmar Hermann, the one about the Fw 190A? I've been thinking of getting it. Skychimp I believe said that it was much more focused on the earlier versions. Would be interesting to see if there's anything good on the A-9 in it. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

http://members.chello.se/unni/Dora-9-3.JPG

When it comes to aircombat, I'd rather be lucky than good any day!

JG26Red
02-06-2004, 09:00 AM
Iam still having troubles getting used to the D series... i dunno what it is, but i just cant tame it.. find myself jumping back into the As and having success..

Zen--
02-06-2004, 09:56 AM
Kyrule,

Thanks for the extra details and don't worry about not responding yesterday, I figured that sooner or later you'd see this and bring up some good details, which you did http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


This is why I asked you guys in the first place....this is spot on with what I was looking for and I'm happy that I actually got a couple of the details right. Maybe my memory isn't as shot as I recalled it was (pun intended).


Thanks guys, I really do appreciate this. I find that my enthusiasm for the minute details of WW2 aviation is returning and it's good to know that the community can count on gentlemen like yourselves (and you too AKD!)

S!!

-Zen-
Formerly TX-Zen

Zen--
02-06-2004, 10:03 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JG26Red:
Iam still having troubles getting used to the D series... i dunno what it is, but i just cant tame it.. find myself jumping back into the As and having success..<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


What kind of problems Red...can you give a bit more detail?

-Zen-
Formerly TX-Zen

JG26Red
02-06-2004, 10:21 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Zen--:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JG26Red:
Iam still having troubles getting used to the D series... i dunno what it is, but i just cant tame it.. find myself jumping back into the As and having success..<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


What kind of problems Red...can you give a bit more detail?

-Zen-
Formerly TX-Zen
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

it seems more finicky, twitchy than the A... it tends to make my shooting worse and with the lovely cockpit i need all the help i can get, which is where the 108s come in lol... i tend to switch periodically, A up D up... off and on... iam sure it will take time... there was a time i wouldnt fly the 190 at all, but have gotten used to the As and sure the
Ds will come around

Ankanor
02-06-2004, 10:29 AM
If I am not mistaken, the Sturmbocks had also more fuel, allowing for almost 3 hours of flying.

http://server4.uploadit.org/files2/101203-delphinche.jpg
Some things are worth fighting for.
And most of them wear miniskirts...

Zen--
02-06-2004, 10:39 AM
A few people have posted joystick config settings that have helped them with the 'twitchier' planes in the game, though unforunately I don't have a link. (I bet someone else does though)

I had the same problem but I guess enough practice has done the trick, for me it's the other way around now...I find the Dora smooth as silk and the Antons seem to flounder all over the place. In fact for me everything BUT the Dora seems to flounder lol.

Partly you must be careful with the roll rate, that is often the cause of bad gunnery because any input tends to make the plane roll one way or the other.

To counter this I almost constantly use a touch of rudder when shooting (though to be honest I can't say the exact details of it, it's more of a feeling of what to do to control the twitchy-ness) and that has really helped me alot.

I think that unless you are very careful with precise pitch input, some amount of aileron roll happens with the D9 and this is why it gets that unstable reputation. Dampening some of your JS inputs might help and so might using the rudder. I tend to fire in a diagnal pattern anyway, for some reason I hit more often if I rake the target at an angle rather than lead him in one axis of motion only...if that makes any sense. I am a snap shot gunner out of habit, I fire very very short bursts (like 1/4 second) in part because of the sensitivity of the D9.



Hope this helps...keep asking questions if you have them, I'm sure that the high speed FW jocks will be glad to lend a hand and I'll answer anything I can.

-Zen-
Formerly TX-Zen

FW190fan
02-06-2004, 11:15 AM
Here you go Zen...


www.msu.edu/~mccar130/FW190armor1.png (http://www.msu.edu/~mccar130/FW190armor1.png)


www.msu.edu/~mccar130/FW190armor2.png (http://www.msu.edu/~mccar130/FW190armor2.png)

http://people.aero.und.edu/~choma/lrg0645.jpg

A.K.Davis
02-06-2004, 11:24 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by robban75:
While on the topic of the A's, has anyone here bought the latest book by Dietmar Hermann, the one about the Fw 190A? I've been thinking of getting it. Skychimp I believe said that it was much more focused on the earlier versions. Would be interesting to see if there's anything good on the A-9 in it. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, I got it, but its stops discussion rather abruptly at the A-3. Almost feels like half a book.

--AKD

http://www.flyingpug.com/pugline2.jpg