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View Full Version : Blenheim wing gun, ever used?



Captain_Avatar
07-28-2004, 04:09 PM
Is see that the Blennies had a single .303 MG mounted on the port wing. Was it ever really used? Wouldn't seem to be too terribly effective against most targets. Did the Blennies used as ad hoc nightfighters sport more guns?

Captain_Avatar
07-28-2004, 04:09 PM
Is see that the Blennies had a single .303 MG mounted on the port wing. Was it ever really used? Wouldn't seem to be too terribly effective against most targets. Did the Blennies used as ad hoc nightfighters sport more guns?

El Turo
07-28-2004, 04:25 PM
In my other life as a virtual Blennie pilot elsewhere, I use the wing-gun pea shooter as measely as it may be for strafing infantry and other soft targets. In three years of simulation play, I've even managed to get 19 air to air kills in the MkIV. Hehe..

As for the night fighter variant, it has a gunpod/pack on the belly with 4 machine guns.

Yay for **** planes and the whackos that love them!

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/53.gif

edit: LOL.. c rap is a censored word? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif


Callsign "Turo" in IL2:FB & WWIIOL
______________________
This place
was once
a place
of worship
I thought,
reloading my rifle.

~V.

Rab03
07-30-2004, 01:33 AM
Yes, it was used.
Yugoslav Royal Air Force had bomber groups equipped with Savoia Marchetti SM 79s, Dornier Do17Ps and Bristol (Zmaj) Blenheims. When Germany attacked Yugoslavia on April 6, 1941, starting wth devastation of capital Belgrade and valiant defense of 6th Fighter group, YRAF bombers were ordered to attack advancing Panzer columns and to start counterattacks on enemy airfields and military installations in Austria, Dalmatia, Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria and Albania.
Special bravery was performed by bomber groups that bombarded German airfield in Szeged, Hungary. After initial surprise bomb run, wild melee developed. Yugoslav Blenheims flew at tree top level, avoiding Messerschmitts that managed to take off, under intense AA fire and strafed (!) enemy planes and troops on ground. Many of the crews were lost.

Never seen it used in game http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif.

Post war government (pro-communist) never really appreciated valor of royal crews. This injustice was corrected in 2000/2001, when the first democratic president of Yugoslavia knighted many of YRAF personnel that showed exceptional courage in defending Yugoslavia 1941.

ednavar
07-30-2004, 02:37 AM
Do not whant to start a flame, but what do you mean by pro-communist? Wasn't it just a communist regime?

S!

E.

Rab03
07-30-2004, 04:01 AM
I'm afraid Yugoslav history is much more complicated than that.
After the war, Yugoslavia had a government which consisted of represantatives of both sides-communists and King's delegates (Yugoslavia was to be divided concerning the influence 50:50, as agreed by Churchill and Stalin). I think it was in 1946 when King's return was forbidden, all of royal and private industrial property was confiscated and republic was declared-Federal People's Republic of Yugoslavia. In those first years you can say there was communist government. But, in 1948, Tito (leader of People's liberation army of Yugoslavia-NOVJ which fought Axis 1941-1945), president of Yugoslavia defied Stalin and the country was totally isolated from the East.
It was in the early fifties when the Lend-lease armament was for the third time given to Yugoslavia (just planes to mention-P-47s, Thunderjets and Sabres). In 1953 Yugoslavia was unofficially in NATO.
After Stalin died and Nikita Hruschov took his place, Yugoslavia started turning to USSR again, but not completely. Yugoslavia was never in the Warsaw pact, but founder, together with India and Indonesia, of the Non-alignment movement, which had more than hundred countries as members. This movement was intended as anti-imperialist movement in a way that consisted of countries which didn't want to be under neither NATO nor Warsaw pact, but kind of neutral.
Like I've said Yugoslavia was never purely communist, but was far from non-communist country. Politicaly, Yugoslavia was balancing between great powers, acting as buffer zone.

The most important aspect of Tito's "dictatorship" was high living standard, much, much higher than in any of the eastern European countries and higher than in some of today's EU countries. People from Warsaw pact countries thought of Yugoslavia as of wealthy West.
This was the case until the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia disintegrated in bloodshed 1991-1995. Since the disintegration started, Serbia (which by size and population constitued more than half of Yugoslavia) and Montenegro stayed together declaring Federal Republic of Yugoslavia under some kind of socialistic regime which developed corrupted free-trade economy. It was in year 2000 when the socialists were throughn from power, and truly democratic parties took over.

BTW, Federal republic of Yugoslavia (now Serbia and Montenegro) is the Basketball world champion (Vlade Divac, Peja Stojakovic & team defeated US Dream Team and Argentina in the finals of the Basketball World Championship) and multiple European basketball champion.

AWL_Spinner
07-30-2004, 04:29 AM
Must admit it made me chuckle when, in an offline campaign and outnumbered I issued a call for help over the radio.

Not only was I ably assisted by some other Hurricanes, but also the Blenheim I was supposed to be escorting came swooping in to mix it with the 109s using it's wing gun.

Cheers, Spinner

http://www.alliedwingedlegion.com/members/signatures/spinner_sig.jpg

Hawgdog
07-30-2004, 04:42 AM
Rab, stay free buddie!
Fight for it!

Whoot!

http://img5.photobucket.com/albums/v22/HawgDog/sharkdog.gif
When you get to Hell, tell 'em HawgDog sent you!

Rab03
07-30-2004, 05:00 AM
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Every right was fought for-Serbian people overthrown the dictator by itself.

I've seen bombers attacking bombers when no other planes were around. Blenheim did that? Wow.

ednavar
07-30-2004, 05:02 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Rab03:
I'm afraid Yugoslav history is much more complicated than that. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks for the explanation, very interesting. I think there is quite a difference between how people from Yugoslavia perceived themself and how it was seen from the west.

It was perceived as an integral part of the Warsaw Pact and it was really difficult for a westener, still during the 80s, to see huge differences in the living standards of Zagreb, Prage of Budapest. But I suppose that living inside a system make someone more sensible to the relevant details. S!

E.

F19_Ob
07-30-2004, 05:23 AM
If U have an interest for Blenheims , u might want to read these fantastic articles? :

Blenheim gunner:
http://www.virtualpilots.fi/en/hist/WW2History-ViljoLehtinenEnglish.html

Blenheim and ju88 pilot:
http://www.virtualpilots.fi/en/hist/WW2History-RautavaAijoEnglish.html

Night of the bombers....(this is incredible):
http://www.virtualpilots.fi/en/hist/WW2History-NightOfTheBombers.html


There were additional Blenheim articles from same site:
http://www.virtualpilots.fi/en/hist/
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Rab03
07-30-2004, 06:48 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ednavar:
I think there is quite a difference between how people from Yugoslavia perceived themself and how it was seen from the west.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Maybe, but did you know that Yugoslavia during 70s and 80s received large loans and credits from US, World bank, IMF, etc. There was no computer and other high tech export ban for Yugoslavia, unlike WP countries. Believe me, till the 90s, differences between cities (in which I've been, BTW) stated above were realy big. And I don't speak from inner perspective, but from perspective of people living in Warsaw pact. Average tourist from Yugoslavia just couldn't spend his pocket money in Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Poland, Romania and Bulgaria. Economic/production cooperation with Italy, West Germany and other EU, African, Asian and WP countries flourished.

Winston Churchill, Agatha Christie and many other celebrities had been visiting Yugoslav coast after WWII.
After all, Republic of Croatia had a developed tourism since early 70s with really many West German, Austrian and other tourists freely coming (no visas) to Dalmatia. Did they go to Odessa, Mamaia, or anywhere else in Warsaw pact? Don't think so.

Great articles, F19_Ob! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

SUPERAEREO
07-30-2004, 07:07 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ednavar:
I think there is quite a difference between how people from Yugoslavia perceived themself and how it was seen from the west.

It was perceived as an integral part of the Warsaw Pact and it was really difficult for a westener, still during the 80s, to see huge differences in the living standards of Zagreb, Prage of Budapest.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not entirely true: from an Italian perspective we always knew that Tito's major military worry was a possible invasion from the Warsaw Pact, and before the unexpected civil war that ensued Tito's death exploded we were very conscious of Yugoslavia as a lively cultural and economical entity that seemed to have found its own "third way" between East and West.

I guess that it was easier to see from Italy because we were neighbours.

S!



"The first time I ever saw a jet, I shot it down." - Chuck Yaeger

"Ja, Hunde, wollt ihr denn ewig leben?" - Friedrich der Große

"Timeo Danaos, et dona ferentes" - *neid

p1ngu666
07-30-2004, 07:27 AM
thats cool that 3rd way http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

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&lt;123_GWood_JG123&gt; NO SPAM!

SUPERAEREO
07-30-2004, 07:43 AM
Well P1ngu, at the time we had only two Superpowers in the world and I guess anything that didn't fit one scheme or the other was likely to be called a Third Way.

Now of course we only have one Superpower... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gif

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/784.gif

S!



"The first time I ever saw a jet, I shot it down." - Chuck Yaeger

"Ja, Hunde, wollt ihr denn ewig leben?" - Friedrich der Große

"Timeo Danaos, et dona ferentes" - *neid

ednavar
07-30-2004, 12:54 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SUPERAEREO:
Not entirely true: from an Italian perspective we always knew that Tito's major military worry was a possible invasion from the Warsaw Pact, and before the unexpected civil war that ensued Tito's death exploded we were very conscious of Yugoslavia as a lively cultural and economical entity that seemed to have found its own "third way" between East and West.

I guess that it was easier to see from Italy because we were neighbours.

S!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is a bit difficult to talk about third way when dictatoriship is involved. There were contrast regarding the egemonic power of URSS but still it was a variant of a communist regime.

The perspective you have expressed was more rappresentative of italy's left wing and I doubt the 400.000 italian refuges from Istria and their families shared your same positive outlook.

Anyway, this is not firm ground and is getting a bit OT, but I'll be more than pleased to continue it on PM.

S!

E.

SUPERAEREO
07-30-2004, 06:57 PM
You may be right in saying that the POW I expressed was perhaps typical of the Italian Left, but in the '80s most Italians both on the left and on the right preferred not to think too much of a war that ended 40 years earlier, and even on the far right there was some grudging respect for the statesman and undoubtedky relief at seeing Tito's artillery firmly pointed to the common enemy in the East.
At the time one extra ally against the Soviet Block counted a lot more than our refugees from a previous war, and we knew very well that troops from the Warsaw Pact would have to fight the Yugoslavian army before reaching our eastern borders.

And let's not forget that Istria had been Austrian for hundreds of years and Italian only for about twenty five, even if large Italian (or should I say Venetian?) communities had lived there since the middle ages.

While it's a tragic fact that more people died around Trieste in forty days of occupation by Titoist forces in 1945 than during the rest of the war and that the assassins who killed them were never brought to justice, we cannot condemn the whole of Yugslavia for it more than we can condemn Germany for the actions of German troops.

Nations lose territory when they lose a war and Italy should never have entered World War Two. Ultimately the loss of Istria was the fruit of Mussolini's misplaced ambitions.

I agree it was an unspeakable tragedy for the refugees, but even this tragedy gets dwarfed by other tragedies that took place in Europe and elsewhere during the war: think of the extermination camps, the bombing of Japanese and German cities, the obliteration of Eastern Prussia...

I'm also not sure about the number of refugees you quote:they could have been between 200000 and 350000 but nobody knows for sure.

I'm originally from NE Italy and I am not blind to the suffering that went on in the region during WW2, but regarding the tragedy of the Istrian exodus, we Italians should have spoken up at the time: if we decided to ignore it, it was out of political and strategical convenience and a strong desire to frget the war and get on with our own lives.


S!



"The first time I ever saw a jet, I shot it down." - Chuck Yaeger

"Ja, Hunde, wollt ihr denn ewig leben?" - Friedrich der Große

"Timeo Danaos, et dona ferentes" - *neid

[This message was edited by SUPERAEREO on Sat July 31 2004 at 06:17 AM.]

[This message was edited by SUPERAEREO on Sat July 31 2004 at 06:19 AM.]

[This message was edited by SUPERAEREO on Sat July 31 2004 at 06:20 AM.]

ednavar
08-01-2004, 02:06 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SUPERAEREO:
You may be right in saying that the POW I expressed was perhaps typical of the Italian Left, but in the '80s most Italians both on the left and on the right preferred not to think too much of a war that ended 40 years earlier, and even on the far right there was some grudging respect for the statesman and undoubtedky relief at seeing Tito's artillery firmly pointed to the common enemy in the East.
At the time one extra ally against the Soviet Block counted a lot more than our refugees from a previous war, and we knew very well that troops from the Warsaw Pact would have to fight the Yugoslavian army before reaching our eastern borders.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly, but this is just realpolitik. The same reason that allowed NATO to have a friendly relation with Franco's Spain for well over 20 years, and I doubt you would define Franco's governmentship a third way of any sort.
Not thinking of what happened 40 years before in pre 90s Italy was not an option, it was the only official position of the left intelligentia.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
And let's not forget that Istria had been Austrian for hundreds of years and Italian only for about twenty five, even if large Italian (or should I say Venetian?) communities had lived there since the middle ages.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm not sure where did you get this information. If you are talking about modern Slovenia and Croatia it is true that large part of these lands had been under Austria-Hungary control, but defently we are not talking of hundreads of year for Istria. Here you can find some details regarding this issue: http://www.istrians.com/istria/maps/historic/
Both Venice and then Austria favoured Slavic immigration: the former to revitalise agriculture, the latter to lessen the percentage of Italian (you could say Venetian of course, but that kind of approach could be used to neglect the existance of an Italian Country tout court..), but even after a century of Austrian Governament more that 75% of the population was of italian language (90% in Fiume at the beginning of the century).


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>

While it's a tragic fact that more people died around Trieste in forty days of occupation by Titoist forces in 1945 than during the rest of the war and that the assassins who killed them were never brought to justice, we cannot condemn the whole of Yugslavia for it more than we can condemn Germany for the actions of German troops.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm not condemning the people from that region but I do condemn Yugoslavia as I do with Fascist Italy: dictatoriship is just plain wrong. At least 30.000 people died by the hand of Titoist forces and while many war criminals have always been known, even in recent years Yugoslavia has never persecuted any of them.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>

Nations lose territory when they lose a war and Italy should never have entered World War Two. Ultimately the loss of Istria was the fruit of Mussolini's misplaced ambitions.

I agree it was an unspeakable tragedy for the refugees, but even this tragedy gets dwarfed by other tragedies that took place in Europe and elsewhere during the war: think of the extermination camps, the bombing of Japanese and German cities, the obliteration of Eastern Prussia...

I'm also not sure about the number of refugees you quote:they could have been between 200000 and 350000 but nobody knows for sure.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

400.000 is the Red Cross figure for the italian refugees from Istria between 1944 to 1956 (the last big exodus of 60.000 during 1954-56)


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
I'm originally from NE Italy and I am not blind to the suffering that went on in the region during WW2, but regarding the tragedy of the Istrian exodus, we Italians should have spoken up at the time: if we decided to ignore it, it was out of political and strategical convenience and a strong desire to frget the war and get on with our own lives.

S!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm from Venice and I had plenty of first hand contacts on this subject plus I exstensivly
visited Istria during my youth. Italy did not spoke at the time for many different reasons starting form Churchill's hope to secure Tito to the west block, De Gasperi silence regarding Istria during the Peace talks in Paris and his particular attention to SudtTirol and most of all the need to avoid conflict with the extreme left that was extremely powerful in post ww2 in Italy. We did not decided to ignore it; the refuges were ignored for the same realpolitik that can help define a communist regime as a third way.

My father was one of those refuges and it is true, it was just one of the many tragedies that took place during the war. Remebering is the only form of justice remained, and the only useful to our generation.

S!

Rab03
08-02-2004, 01:36 AM
You are absolutely right. During and immediately after liberation by Tito's partisans, many (not all) "collaborating/hostile" nations were subjected to maltreatment and forced to leave. My uncle fought side by side with Italian soldiers after Italy capitulated in 1943. Furthermore it makes very strange situation that the least hostile occupators of Yugoslav soil were treated as the worst.

SUPERAEREO
08-02-2004, 08:30 AM
@ Ednavar: I do fondamentally agree with most of what you say and I surely have no love of dictatorships, so I presume what you object most to was my definition of Yugoslavia's reality as a "Third Way".

That definition wanted to reflect the perceived reality of the country in the 1980's and was not a justification of the actions of the Titoists during the war.
Countries do change in time and go trough phases and periods dominated by different trends and politics.
Take the USA: nobody would deny they are one of the cradles of democracy, but they still lived through the years of senator McCarthy's witch hunt. Yugoslavia might have been a dictatorship, but towards the end of the cold war that country seemed to enjoy a cultural and economical renaissance, a phenomenon that now we know was sadly to be short-lived.

You say I talk of Realpolitik: yes I do.

It's the only real option in these cases.

If we start talking of Istria then we should also mention Südtirol, and how the number of inhabitants of the town of Innsbruck more than doubled after 1919.

To be contended is the fate of border lands, unfortunately, and the ones who suffer are their peoples.

S!



"The first time I ever saw a jet, I shot it down." - Chuck Yaeger

"Ja, Hunde, wollt ihr denn ewig leben?" - Friedrich der Große

"Timeo Danaos, et dona ferentes" - *neid