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XyZspineZyX
07-09-2003, 04:33 PM
Yes, you guessed the results: all F4 shot down usually for the loss of one Yak1 (not lost by enemy action though).
I'd like to hear a reasonable explanation for this. And please don't come with the usual AI knows only turnfighting, because F4 was a better turnfighter than Yak1.

XyZspineZyX
07-09-2003, 04:33 PM
Yes, you guessed the results: all F4 shot down usually for the loss of one Yak1 (not lost by enemy action though).
I'd like to hear a reasonable explanation for this. And please don't come with the usual AI knows only turnfighting, because F4 was a better turnfighter than Yak1.

XyZspineZyX
07-09-2003, 04:36 PM
Hmmmm...just one word to explain it all: AI...
Try that online...I bet the results wouldn´t be the same.

<center>PATRIA Y HONOR
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XyZspineZyX
07-09-2003, 04:39 PM
It's a secret Communist plot to undermine the confidence in our armed forces. I recommend a pre-emptive strike!

/slush

(Why bother? There's a patch on it's way that will adress DM, FM and AI issues)



http://dk.groups.yahoo.com/group/aktivitetsdage/files/Eurotrolls.gif

You can't handle the truth!
Col. Jessep

XyZspineZyX
07-09-2003, 04:46 PM
cueceleches wrote:
- Hmmmm...just one word to explain it all: AI...
- Try that online...I bet the results wouldn´t be the
- same.


What do you mean? AI is driving all the planes, and Yak1 is a poorer turnfighter than F4 (in fact is outperformed in any performance characteristic).

I tried the same for Lagg3 '41 on average against F4 on ace. Of course I got the same results: all 4 F4 shot down for the loss of one.

XyZspineZyX
07-09-2003, 04:50 PM
I mean that the AI is not fully reliable...Make the same example with real people, and I´m sure you would be surprised...Real people are smarter, fly smarter (well, most of the time) and can bring much more from their planes. Even though, I think the Yak 1 is a good counterpart to the F4...when flown properly.

<center>PATRIA Y HONOR
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XyZspineZyX
07-09-2003, 04:51 PM
What makes you think the F4 is a better turn fighter than the Yak? The F4 may have been a good turn fighter for a 109, but that doesn't make it better than the Yak.

In RL the F4 was flown like any other 109. Sneak attack, fight in the vertical, always with an advantage. They fought nothing like the AI do.

Da Buzz
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XyZspineZyX
07-09-2003, 04:53 PM
I agree with Buzzu, the 109 was a B&Z plane, all of its versions, even though some of them turned better than others...

<center>PATRIA Y HONOR
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XyZspineZyX
07-09-2003, 04:55 PM
cueceleches wrote:
- I mean that the AI is not fully reliable...Make the
- same example with real people, and I´m sure you
- would be surprised...Real people are smarter, fly
- smarter (well, most of the time) and can bring much
- more from their planes. Even though, I think the Yak
- 1 is a good counterpart to the F4...when flown
- properly.


Yak1 was no match for a F4. But if you look what's happening online, you'll see that Yak1 is one of the most popular planes. FM as it is right now is poor especially for early planes, all of them including F4. All turn too fast sustained. I can turn sustained in 16-17 sec with F4 (test right above the sea at 300kph sustained), which of course is too good. Others are much worse.

XyZspineZyX
07-09-2003, 04:59 PM
So we should maybe wait until the patch comes out to see if they are corrected, and then do another test concerning those two planes.
But the F4 should take advantage of its speed and dive superiority over the yak...at least with the right FM.

<center>PATRIA Y HONOR
<img src=http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0SgC0BAYXu3Ft4dbPEzs6M4eZf0A!qec0t1WkurDrK6Q0TV0lY fpkeHHrD5LuaVzXJQ6qOkKtYgnXXYbwSV39vh30VyRPTjG81fM rhMoRCs4YRhDD5Qo3Og/Cueceleches0.jpg?dc=4675424998946727344"></center>

XyZspineZyX
07-09-2003, 05:03 PM
I just did your little test, and the Yak was dead pretty fast.
Take the Yak1 yourself, and try and beat 4 F4's. You don't have enough ammo to begin with.


btw.. The Yak was a match for the 109. Show me where it wasn't? I just started reading Black Cross Red Star, and it says the Yak was the only plane equal to the German planes in 42. These are quotes from German leaders.

Da Buzz
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XyZspineZyX
07-09-2003, 05:09 PM
Yes, the Yak lacks the punch of the 109 in terms of firepower and ammo...but it is a good standing opponent to the 109, at least when in equal terms of numbers...

<center>PATRIA Y HONOR
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XyZspineZyX
07-09-2003, 05:19 PM
BuzzU wrote:
- What makes you think the F4 is a better turn fighter
- than the Yak? The F4 may have been a good turn
- fighter for a 109, but that doesn't make it better
- than the Yak.
-
- In RL the F4 was flown like any other 109. Sneak
- attack, fight in the vertical, always with an
- advantage. They fought nothing like the AI do.


Both stalled at about 90mph which means that turn radius for instantaneous turns is the same. Also the instantaneous G.

Now let's check wing loading:

F4: 171 kg/m^2
Yak1: 172 kg/m^2

power loading

F4: 2.04 kg/hp
Yak1: 2.81 kg/hp

Cd0 on both is 0.0235, bigger flat plate area for Yak1 (more parasitic drag)
Aspect ratio: F4 6.15, Yak1 5.83 (Yak1 produces more induced drag)

In short in all factors affecting turn F4 is better than Yak1. It has the same wing loading but power loading is 1/3 better meaning that it can sustain much more induced drag in turn. That if it was necessary but it wasn't because F4 produces less induced drag than Yak1 (also less parasitic drag). F4 made a complete turn in 18.5 sec and Yak1 in almost 20sec, just like Lagg3 '41. Yak1b/9 were a little bit better but not better that F4.

In fact F4 outturned everything in european air war (both eastern and western) except I-153 and Spitfire (F4 had the same turnrate with early Hurricane and better than later Hurri).

XyZspineZyX
07-09-2003, 05:26 PM
BuzzU wrote:
- btw.. The Yak was a match for the 109. Show me where
- it wasn't? I just started reading Black Cross Red
- Star, and it says the Yak was the only plane equal
- to the German planes in 42. These are quotes from
- German leaders.


No it wasn't. Not only that F4 outturned Yak1, but outrun, outaccelerate and outclimb it by a large margin. Now for some misterious reason Yak1 keeps the energy better than F4, which of course is absurd.


- I just did your little test, and the Yak was dead
- pretty fast.
- Take the Yak1 yourself, and try and beat 4 F4's.
- You don't have enough ammo to begin with.

I didn't try that, by I tried to kill AI F4 and Yak1b with F4 respectively Yak1b, and of course it much much easier with Yak. And aiming is a breeze in Yaks, no sideslip, super flat trajectory for bullets, all in all the dream cheat plane.



Message Edited on 07/09/0311:28AM by Huckebein_FW

XyZspineZyX
07-09-2003, 05:29 PM
Have you beat 4 ace F4's in a Yak yet?

I was willing to admit the F4 was equal to the Yak in turning. I knew of course you never would. Arguing with you is always a losing battle. I should have known better. Have a nice day.

Da Buzz
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XyZspineZyX
07-09-2003, 05:55 PM
Len Deighton in"Fighter" has turning rate figures for bob 109's and spitfires with the 109 able to turn inside a spit.His explanation is with the 109 you were flying closer to the envelope and most 109 pilots would not take the chance(the 109 being a trickier airplane to fly than spit).I have shelves and shelves of books and each one list different top speeds turning radius's etc.I have never read anything that has stated that germany didn't have easy air superiority in the early years.As a matter of fact even during Kursk they had complete air superiority.

XyZspineZyX
07-09-2003, 05:57 PM
I thought we were talking about the EF, not BOB.

Da Buzz
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XyZspineZyX
07-09-2003, 06:39 PM
OK, All this arguing turning circles etc. is interesting but do not make the mistake of saying that the LW s performance against the VVS in the early war should be reproduced when you pit Ai of equal abilities in each plane.

Teh Germans had several advantages in real life that FB doesn't take into consideration:

1. Pilot experience in a real shooting war (or 2 in some cases)

2. The best tactical doctrine of any airforce in the world.

ex. Pair & schwarm formations & tactics.

3. Gunsights. Hartman states that early in the war many VVS aircraft had no gunsights, just a circle painted on the windscreen !
-
Many also say the best thing about P-39s may have been the gunsights. However it was really ....

4. Radios radios radios!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

One VVS pilot described thier radios as copies of captured Japanese models from 39. With circuits pressed into a cardboard like material. They were next to wrthless when it was damp out. Also only every other yak even came with a radio.

Radio changed the nature of aerial fighting. Without radios open formations could not be used without sacrificing the ability to use hand signals.
Try it online with L using voice coms & VVS only using chat text when within short range of each other & see what happens....

5. Many VVS pilots were afraid of their aircraft breaking up due to poor construction. Aircraft also performed worse than they should have if properly constructed.

6. The LW had a huge Psychological advantage. In Real Life this is hard to over rate. " It ain't the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog."

So perfectly model aircraft will NOT yield Historical results in this game!


"Anytime you have an opportunity to make things better and you don't, then you are wasting your time on this earth." -Roberto Clemente

XyZspineZyX
07-09-2003, 09:53 PM
Someone had posted that the spit had a shorter turning radius than the 109(that would have been an "E" model)that's why I brought it up.I do have a ?.I've read that all the early war japaneses planes didn't have radios (because of the added weight).Do you have the source available on the russian radios?Thanks.

XyZspineZyX
07-09-2003, 10:30 PM
Have any of you whiners ever even flown the Yak? Seriously, have you? You get pilot killed so often it is unbelievable, but I'm not complaining, I accept it. I can live ten times longer offline in LW planes than VVS planes. When flying the slow Yak, it is only a matter of time until you are chased down and sniped from faster, or better climbing plane. Ever try attacking a bomber or any plane with a rear gunner in Yak? You have very little firepower and rarely even get close enough to shoot. In 109 you have the speed and 1 hit power to take down a bomber, in FW-190 you have super tough plane and great firepower. It is so much easier to survive in a 109 online or offline, and the 190 is easily the BEST plane in the game offline IMHO. I started using the 190 in offline campaigns and smashed all of my previous records, you really have to goof up to die in a 190 offline. Fly the Yak exclusively for awhile and come back and tell me how "uber" it is, you'll be crying for your 109 back in no time. I think alot of the problems here come from tests with QMB, as the Yak certainly has superior AI, even to all other VVS planes. This was addressed in the "test" version I had, but anything can change. Still, the fact is that all planes have exaggerated AI flight models, fly the Yak yourself and see what happens. Don't fly 1 vs. 1 either, in multiple plane engagements the FW-190 is king and hammers the crap out of Yaks. I have a feeling after the patch that things will be even easier for LW during any year.

After the months of whining I don't think I can fly LW planes any more out of principle. People can ruin anything. I wonder if it is this way on the Russian forum, I doubt it. What I really want is a damn "anti-people" plane. Did anybody ever name a plane the "human exterminator" or something to that effect, because that would be the plane for me.

http://user.tninet.se/~qbc513r/jn766.jpg


Message Edited on 07/09/0309:35PM by kyrule2

XyZspineZyX
07-09-2003, 10:35 PM
kyrule2

Just fly the plane in your sig. I don't believe anybody will ever call it a uber/noob plane.

Da Buzz
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<center.
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XyZspineZyX
07-09-2003, 10:43 PM
Buzz, I intend to fly that baby until my eyes bleed. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

But I'm sure it will be tagged a "noob" plane and join the ranks of the I-16, La-5FN, Yak-3, La-7, Hurricane IIc, 109K-4, etc. The title of "uber" plane changes more often than your sig Buzz. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

By the way, what is the "noob" plane of the week anyway? Is it alphabetical or do they use some other method?

http://user.tninet.se/~qbc513r/jn766.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-09-2003, 10:44 PM
every time was forgotten that finns,rumaina,ungarn,bulgaren etc

have too good killratio against russia,they have not more experience as russia pilots

it was not only more experience early war

f4 was certain very good doghfighter,
with better wingloading as yak3 and better powerloading

oleg mentioned k4 with 250kg more weigh as g6/as turn same good, because has better powerloading,

powerload is important for sustain turn

underrate she not at doghfight,therefore is she not the fastest at selaevel

mig3 am-38 is faster at sealevel from 41 plane


Message Edited on 07/10/0302:12AM by Skalgrim

XyZspineZyX
07-09-2003, 10:53 PM
The Russian radios were mentioned in a 3 part interview with a VVS pilot host at a Finnish site. I found the articles from a link someone provided here. Atleast i think that is where I read it. I' try to check at home tonight. If I don't post back PM me & remind me.

As for Japanese planes I believe in the case of the Zeros' cases the pilots themselves removed the radio, preferring to save weight as the radios were very unreliable.
Got this from Saburo Sakai's book.

i recall hearing that during the attack on Pearl Harbor the flight leaders planes had radios but the radio man (Vals & Kates) had to tekegraph the mesages to the ships.
Hence TO-RA-To-RA-TO-RA were 2 syllables easily distinguished in Japanese morse code.

"Anytime you have an opportunity to make things better and you don't, then you are wasting your time on this earth." -Roberto Clemente

XyZspineZyX
07-10-2003, 03:46 AM
turenne, I was wrong about the radio's being copies of Japanese radios it seems, i can't find this mentioned in any of the stuff I have been reading lately..
Do look at http://airforce.users.ru/lend-lease/english/articles/golodnikov/part1.htm


Of the radios in I-16s he says"They were poor excuses for radios.Garbage! ..."

But I think you will find the entire interview very interesting & an enjoyable read.
turenne wrote:
- Someone had posted that the spit had a shorter
- turning radius than the 109(that would have been an
- "E" model)that's why I brought it up.I do have a
- ?.I've read that all the early war japaneses planes
- didn't have radios (because of the added weight).Do
- you have the source available on the russian
- radios?Thanks.
-
-



"Anytime you have an opportunity to make things better and you don't, then you are wasting your time on this earth." -Roberto Clemente

XyZspineZyX
07-10-2003, 04:19 AM
Yes, a good I~16 pilot could hang with Emil, but not F.

We need to try massive QMB with 4 flights each Yak~1 and FB109F4 and then see what happens. That's a total of 32 aircraft furball. Fly in furball and you won't laugh so much at AI.

4 Emils and 4 I~16s heavily favor VVS, but 16 Emils and 16 I~16s heavily favor Emil. Minimap with turns blue with icons as the reds vanish.

XyZspineZyX
07-10-2003, 04:32 AM
The AI is porked in FB. Still, there are many problems with the way FB interprets history.

http://home.cogeco.ca/~jkinley/rcafpost.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-10-2003, 04:34 AM
I flew a long campaign in the Yak-1. That plane is barely equal to the Bf-109F-2. It has a slight manuverability edge against the F-4, because of the F-4's greater mass, but that is about it.

Even when the Yak-1 was a much more powerful fighter, earlier in Il-2, it was inferior to the Bf-109F-2, but you won't see this in QMB dogfight missions due to odd things about the AI.

QMB missions are useless for gauging relative aircraft performance. Different wings react differently to opposing wings, aircraft have a tendancy to pay more attention to the human, than to the enemy aircraft, so if you are on one of the sides, you will influence the battle, just by introducing your wing into the dogfight. Even having the two groups both on the second flight, and crashing your aircraft in the first few minutes will influence the AI behavior.

The only time I have been able to get any sort of relative information from the QMB has been by flying both planes against eachother, and leading both squadrons against eachother, and there, my relative experience in each aircraft plays a signifigant role.

For example, if I lead a wing of P-47's against Bf-109G-10's, I can bring three out of four planes back, for all four Bf-109's destroyed, disabled, or lost. If I lead the 109's, I am lucky to bring back two 109's for all four P-47's lost. However, my extensive experience in the P-47 plays a signifigant role here. I can often kill two or three of the 109's, or set my wingmen up for kills, but in the 109, I can't hit anything. That is a big factor in the relative success rates. I am certain that an experienced 109 pilot could just as easily bring back three of four 109's, but would be just as hard pressed to bring two P-47's home.

Same thing happens with the Yak-1 vrs 109F-2. If the player is well experienced in one, or the other's best fighting style, then they will invariably win with that aircraft. A different pilot will win with another.

Harry Voyager

Addendum: I almost forgot, turn rate does not matter in a massive furball: the fight turns at the rate of the *slowest* turner in the fight. That is why a P-47 wing can dogfight with a Yak-3 wing, and come out 4:0 nearly every time, despite the Yak-3s having considerably higher turnrate. The fight only turns as fast as the P-47 in the lead. The trailing Yaks can turn faster, but it breaks them off of their target, and is only suitable for defensive manuvering. Most of it comes down to which side covers eachother better, and which aircrfaft drop first under the continual pounding. That is why the Bf-109's often lose to the Yak-1's. The Yak-1's are somewhat more durable, and the ShKAS is a more capable weapon than the MG 17. The Yaks do somewaht moe damage, and can take somewhat more damage than the 109's, hence they live nd the 109's die.

Air warfare was not about who could turn fastest; it was about who could do the most damage and take the most hits.

http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0YQDLAswcqmIpvWP9dLzZVayPXOmo6IJ16aURujNfs4dDETH84 Q6eIkCbWQemjqF6O8ZfvzlsvUUauJyy9GYnKM6!o3fu!kBnWVh BgMt3q2T3BUQ8yjBBqECLxFaqXVV5U2kWiSIlq1s6VoaVvRqBy Q/Avatar%202%20500x500%20[final).jpg?dc=4675409848259594077

Message Edited on 07/09/0310:43PM by HarryVoyager

XyZspineZyX
07-10-2003, 08:21 AM
Slush69 wrote:
- It's a secret Communist plot to undermine the
- confidence in our armed forces. I recommend a
- pre-emptive strike!
-
- /slush


By doing so, we will be in Moscow before christmas, and are able to save our winterequipment for the real battles./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
07-10-2003, 01:30 PM
HarryVoyager wrote:

Lots of good things including:

- Air warfare was not about who could turn fastest; it
- was about who could do the most damage and take the
- most hits.

This reminds me of a snippet of information I came across recently reading an interview with some Finnish Bf 109 pilots who had fought in WWII. One of them describes how shocked he was on the one occasion when the leading-edge slats automatically opened on his 109. The other pilot said he had never had this happen to him. Yet in typical FB furballs a 109 pilot will see the slats opening all the time. It sounds like the Finnish pilots almost never pulled tight turns in combat.

I think this is yet another bit of evidence that real fighter pilots just didn't fight in the TnB fashion that is common in FB, except as a last resort. The emphasis was always on maintaining a high speed - which means gentle sweeping turns.

It also shows that the interest with turning times and climb rates we see on the boards is probably not that relevant to the actual combat effectiveness of a real aircraft. Features such as visibility, radios, cockpit workload, endurance and pilots trained in teamwork were most likely far more important.

Regards,

RocketDog.

XyZspineZyX
07-10-2003, 01:53 PM
VEry good point, thanks for sharing. This kind of thing brings a new level to my thinking about dogfights and how to engage in combat in FB. The Yak 3 pilot in this scenario really needs to think about how he's going to fight, even though as a pure dogfighter his aircraft is superior.
If he doesn't USE the superior turn rate,climb & acceleration of his aircraft he should not be surprised to be shot down by the "inferior" P-47.

See this is a thinking man's game!
S!
HarryVoyager wrote:
- -
- Addendum: I almost forgot, turn rate does not
- matter in a massive furball: the fight turns at the
- rate of the *slowest* turner in the fight. That is
- why a P-47 wing can dogfight with a Yak-3 wing, and
- come out 4:0 nearly every time, despite the Yak-3s
- having considerably higher turnrate. The fight only
- turns as fast as the P-47 in the lead. The trailing
- Yaks can turn faster, but it breaks them off of
- their target, and is only suitable for defensive
- manuvering. Most of it comes down to which side
- covers eachother better, and which aircrfaft drop
- first under the continual pounding. That is why the
- Bf-109's often lose to the Yak-1's. The Yak-1's are
- somewhat more durable, and the ShKAS is a more
- capable weapon than the MG 17. The Yaks do somewaht
- moe damage, and can take somewhat more damage than
- the 109's, hence they live nd the 109's die.
-
- Air warfare was not about who could turn fastest; it
- was about who could do the most damage and take the
- most hits.
-
-

"Anytime you have an opportunity to make things better and you don't, then you are wasting your time on this earth." -Roberto Clemente

XyZspineZyX
07-10-2003, 02:15 PM
Saburo_0 wrote:

- If he doesn't USE the superior turn rate,climb &
- acceleration of his aircraft he should not be
- surprised to be shot down by the "inferior" P-47

How can you NOT use the superior turn rate, climb and acceleration? The Yak3 simply can't be flown incorrectly in FB by anyone whose played the game more than an hour or so.

http://home.cogeco.ca/~jkinley/rcafpost.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-10-2003, 03:14 PM
Buzz, Huckebein_FW may be wrong but that's no reason for you to skirt the issue.

His argument is simple: the wingloading, powerloading and drag numbers all say the F4 should out-turn the Yak1. Frankly, at least in my uninformed eyes, if his numbers are correct, then it should. It appears that it doesn't.

So, unless you can disprove his numbers or come up with some other variable that favours the yak in turn-performance, you have no legs to stand on. Instead of changing the subject, I suggest you either research your own numbers/aeronautics or stop jumping all over everyone else's.



For example, when I read his post, I knew I didn't know enough to argue for or against his point and decided to just read and hold my tongue, err keyboard - might even learn something. That is, until I saw your daft post! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

You do know that the universe will not unravel if you fail to respond to every single post on this board, right? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

<hr width="400">Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes.
That way, when you criticize them, you're a mile away and have their
shoes!
http://members.rogers.com/teemaz/sig.jpg (http://www.jagdgeschwader1.com)

XyZspineZyX
07-10-2003, 03:53 PM
BuzzU wrote:
- I just did your little test, and the Yak was dead
- pretty fast.
- Take the Yak1 yourself, and try and beat 4 F4's.
- You don't have enough ammo to begin with.


I tried your little testhttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif. Yak1b against 4 F4 on ace. You guessed the result. In hard turn after one F4, another comming from somewhere in front sawed my wing with a single shot. I watched the track, I was turning hard, he shot blindly with an impossible deflection and scored. So I changed AI to veteran (there is no difference in ability to fight between ace and veteran, except for super sniper shots).

On vet all went smooth (and boring): I turned and turned and turned until I shot down all (track available). You might say pretty good for one week experience, but I don't think so. Yak1 has just unreal performance.



cueceleches wrote:
- Yes, the Yak lacks the punch of the 109 in terms of
- firepower and ammo...but it is a good standing
- opponent to the 109, at least when in equal terms
- of numbers...

Completely untrue. Usually it take one short burst to down any enemy in Yak1b. Trajectories for cannon shells and MG bullets are the same. If you look at dispersal at 300m you'll see that cannon shells are surrounded by MG bullets, having virtually the same trajectory (on all the path to target, not just at 300m - I was using default convergence for Yak1b, not a convergence set at 300m). Do you think that is possible?

XyZspineZyX
07-10-2003, 04:09 PM
Buzz check you PM please.

ZG77_Nagual
07-10-2003, 05:09 PM
SLight shift in topic. I usually fly the 190a5/4 or the p39n1 (lately on 42/43 server) so last night I tried first the 109g6 then the g2 with pods. What a vacation! Of course you fight energy - but what a great plane - great acceleration, dive, climb, turn and top speed as long as you stay off the deck. I did get stalked by a Hurrican - the thing is, I entered a climb at 700 k - he entered a climb to intercept around 640k - I was initially pulling away, then he started to gain, and kept gaining climbing vertically through probably at least 1000 meters. The early Lagg3s will come close to the same vertical performance. Obviously some fm problems there, but anyway - the g2 with pods is a real world-beater in 42/43.

I think the patch will fix most, if not all the problems.
Hope the p39 stays cool - I quite like it. Gotta say the g2 rules though in the performance realm - you really have to fly the 39 smarter - 190 even more so.

http://pws.chartermi.net/~cmorey/pics/p47janes.jpg