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BennyMoore
05-04-2004, 12:53 AM
In a real plane, you have two brakes, one on each wheel. You can operate them seperately to assist your steering, idependently of your rudder. In IL-2, however, you can only operate them seperately by also using the rudder.

Now, I have CH Pro Pedals. I have the main axis designated to rudder, of course, and one of the sliders to brakes. But IL-2 does not have differential brakes! One of my sliders is unused. There should be a left brake and a right brake in IL-2.

I have removed the part about parachuting.

[This message was edited by BennyMoore on Thu May 27 2004 at 10:01 PM.]

BennyMoore
05-04-2004, 12:53 AM
In a real plane, you have two brakes, one on each wheel. You can operate them seperately to assist your steering, idependently of your rudder. In IL-2, however, you can only operate them seperately by also using the rudder.

Now, I have CH Pro Pedals. I have the main axis designated to rudder, of course, and one of the sliders to brakes. But IL-2 does not have differential brakes! One of my sliders is unused. There should be a left brake and a right brake in IL-2.

I have removed the part about parachuting.

[This message was edited by BennyMoore on Thu May 27 2004 at 10:01 PM.]

BennyMoore
05-08-2004, 09:08 PM
Bump...

Puck1
05-09-2004, 07:35 AM
Those are two very good suggestions. I wouldn't hold my breath getting them implemented though. I wish that rather than smothering us with new aircraft they would assign 1 guy to work on implementing these types of improvements.

FltLt_HardBall
05-09-2004, 08:23 AM
Use the rudder in combination with the brakes. This activates differential braking.

BennyMoore
05-09-2004, 12:55 PM
Yes, I do that all the time and even pointed out that you can do this in my first post here. But that's not anything like the way you do it in real life. I've flown just enough in real life to feel the wrongness of that (I took flight training for a very short time, and have about thirteen or fourteen hours).

In addition, it's difficult to stop quickly while landing which the current, incorrect arrangement. If you tap your brakes to slow you down while you are applying a bit of rudder to keep your plane on the runway, it refuses to apply the brake pressure equally and instead nearly grounloops you. In real life you could tap both brakes equally even when applying full right rudder. In IL-2, when you tap brakes while applying full right rudder, the game considers your pilot to have merely tapped the right brake. This is a huge problem.

Airscrue
05-09-2004, 02:02 PM
Hi Benny! Granted some US planes used toe or heel brakes in WWII, but there were those models of US and other a/c (even today) that used a brake lever in conjunction with rudder pedal input. Do some further research and you will see it depends on the make and model. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

BennyMoore
05-18-2004, 12:33 AM
Will you point out which ones used the method you are talking about? I doubt that the majority did, especially the American planes.

Anyway, what about the parachute deployment? I probably should have made a seperate thread for that.

SeaFireLIV
05-18-2004, 04:56 AM
The parachute idea is very good. Good way to escape chute-shooters and flak. i`d use it. I can imagine new guys bailing and just sitting there until they hit the ground wondering why their chute never opened! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Anyway, with the patch delay already and everything else holding it up I doubt this will be implemented.

SeaFireLIV...



http://img12.photobucket.com/albums/v31/SeaFireLIV/Impatient3.jpg

We`re coming for that Patch ready or not!

p1ngu666
05-18-2004, 06:58 AM
be nice if a pilot was tougher too, hes more fragile than me atm,
also when a tb3 is stuck on its nose and u bail the crew dies http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif
pilot/crew cant survive even a short drop

http://www.pingu666.modded.me.uk/mysig3.jpg
<123_GWood_JG123> NO SPAM!

BaldieJr
05-18-2004, 10:36 AM
DiffBrakes!

Left brake = axis
Right brake = axis

Also:
Mixture = axis

Ultimate:
Split throttles/ pitch/ mixture to indvidual axis so I can have 6 levers to control P-38 engines seperately!

Also, seperate start buttons for each engine. Oh boy I could go on all day about controler options!

<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">
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* Fully programmable 24 hours in advance
* Brew Pause feature lets you enjoy a cup before brewing has finished
* Automatically shuts off when brewing is complete
* Grind-off feature for brewing ground coffee
* 1-4 cup feature to accommodate coffee for one
* 10-cup double-wall insulated thermal carafe to keep your coffee hot long after brewing
* Gold tone commercial-style permanent filter eliminates the need to buy coffee filters
* Charcoal water filter removes impurities from the water
* Separate grinder chamber and filter area allow for easy cleanup
* Limited 3-year warranty
</pre>

ELEM
05-19-2004, 09:28 AM
Oleg has modeled differential braking correctly. Every a/c I have flown that had brakes (some had none!) worked the way they do in this sim and it was also the method used on most WWII a/c that I know of. To apply both brakes together, depress both toe (or heel) bars. Pull brake lever to lock them on. To turn using differential braking push rudder bar fully left or right and apply brake lever at the same time to turn in that direction. Works fine in the sim just as it does in R/L.

I wouldn't join any club that would have ME as member!

http://img35.photobucket.com/albums/v107/Elem_Klimov/I-16_desktop.jpg

lindyman
05-19-2004, 09:41 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BennyMoore:
Will you point out which ones used the method you are talking about? I doubt that the majority did, especially the American planes.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Almost all, if not all, the soviet planes have a brake handle (you can see it on the stick on the IL-2,) the the differential part controlled by the rudder pedals.

If you want an American design with the same construction, look at the trusty old Piper Cherokee (the original, not the later PA28 versions.) True indeed, it's not a warbird, but none the less.
_
/Bjorn.

BennyMoore
05-19-2004, 10:10 PM
I just watched the P-38 Lighting video from Zeno's Warbird Videos, comprised entirely of live footage of the original warbirds, and the P-38, at least, uses differential brakes the way a Cessna does ("my" way).

I'm creating another thread for the parachute deployment and pilot fall damage. My apologies...

ELEM
05-24-2004, 03:32 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BennyMoore:
I just watched the P-38 Lighting video from Zeno's Warbird Videos, comprised entirely of live footage of the original warbirds, and the P-38, at least, uses differential brakes the way a Cessna does ("my" way).

I'm creating another thread for the parachute deployment and pilot fall damage. My apologies...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You misunderstand the meaning of differential braking. It is simply the application of the left or right brake independantly of the other. HOW this achieved is slighly different from one a/c to another but it is ALL differential braking. IL-2/FB has, and has always had, differential braking.

I wouldn't join any club that would have ME as member!

http://img35.photobucket.com/albums/v107/Elem_Klimov/I-16_desktop.jpg

BennyMoore
05-27-2004, 11:00 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ELEM:
You misunderstand the meaning of differential braking. It is simply the application of the left or right brake independantly of the other. HOW this achieved is slighly different from one a/c to another but it is ALL differential braking. IL-2/FB has, and has always had, differential braking. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I clearly understand that, as you would see if you had read my posts better. I am merely stating that differential braking is not implemented correctly. Now, I've been told that the IL-2 braking was actually used. That is news to me; I was not aware of it until now. But the fact remains that some, if not most, of the aircraft used "my" braking. Thus, it's still mostly, or at least partially, incorrectly implemented.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BennyMoore:
[in real life,] the P-38, at least, uses differential brakes the way a Cessna does ("my" way).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Emphasis is on "the way a Cessna does." That is as opposed to the "IL-2 way," which is how it does it in IL-2. I did not indicate that the P-38 in real life uses differential brakes and the P-38 in IL-2 doesn't, I stated that the methods are different and therefore unrealistic.

Am I difficult to understand? No, really, I want to know!

By the way, you said you have flown real life aircraft with brake levers and rudder-linked brakes like those in IL-2. You said that you've never flown planes without this system. I, on the other hand, have never heard of a brake lever on an aircraft or knew about the rudder-linked brakes until playing IL-2. In real life, I've only flown Cessnas, which use the braking system I advocate in this thread. What aircraft are you talking about?

BSS_Vidar
06-01-2004, 09:21 AM
I to have the CH Pro Pedals and am a pilot. I made this exact same request in the Pacific Fighters forum in hopes they emplement "true" differential braking in its initial release. The single axis braking with rudder input in IL-2 is depicting the Russian braking system which is NOT true differential braking.
Elem, you stated it yourself... "It is simply the application of the left or right brake independantly of the other." The Russian system is not independent, meaning you sacrifice pressure from one side to get pressure to the other.
They didn't need it in the wide open airbase environment they operated from. So I wouldn't expect a new axis in IL-2.

I do like the idea of the addition of a mixture axis. The release of CH Products new multi-axis Throttle quad is very close. It will be capable to support full twin-engine ops for throttle, prop pitch, and mixture.

On the flight deck, however, "indepentent" braking will be crucial for precision taxi on the confined space of a flight deck. The difference in this single axis braking set-up is the locking of one wheele by full deployment of the rudder to the side you wish to be your pivot point. The only way to slow a swing about one pivot point with the current model is to relese brake pressure to get pressure to the other side, therefore, lossing your pivot point. That could be a bad thing on the flight deck. True differential toe braking gives a pilot FULL contol on either wheel by allowing you to maintain that pivot point, and slow the swing side of a ground loop by appying brake pressure "independantly". This is what I'm really hoping for in PF. It really doesn't concern me anymore in FB/AEP.

BTW ALL American heavy fighters had independant toe braking. The light little crates/trainers are another story. Russians used this system all the way to their modern fighters, but have emplemented true differntial toe braking on their carrier based non-VSTOL aircraft for deployment on the Kuznetzov. i.e. SU-33 Super Flanker, and MiG-29 Naval varient. They found the refinement was needed for deck ops.

S!

BSS_Vidar

[This message was edited by BSS_Vidar on Tue June 01 2004 at 01:18 PM.]

ELEM
06-02-2004, 07:52 AM
I think what we are seeing here is the difference between an American braking system and a European one. The differential system used in IL-2 is not Russian per se, but European. It is the method used on French a/c like the Jodel and Druine designs and most Britsh light a/c use the same. Spitfires and Hurricanes certainly used this method. But it tends to be replaced by the American system in anything larger than light to medium twins.

I wouldn't join any club that would have ME as member!

http://img35.photobucket.com/albums/v107/Elem_Klimov/I-16_desktop.jpg

BennyMoore
06-03-2004, 10:39 PM
Also, the American system is clearly superior. Don't get all anti-American on me, please, I'm talking about brakes.

For instance, using the European brake system in IL-2, I cannot apply both brakes after landing while I am using rudder to keep myself on the runway. Vidar has explained other advantages better than I can. The European system, on the other hand, has not a single advantage over the American one, unless it's something minor that is not modelled in the game, like ease of maintainance.

lindyman
06-04-2004, 03:30 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BennyMoore:
Also, the American system is clearly superior. Don't get all anti-American on me, please, I'm talking about brakes.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is not really true. This is not to say that the opposite is true either. They're different, that's all, with different advantages and disadvantages.

One thing that is more difficult with toe brakes is steering while braking. Try a gusty crosswind short field landing. You (or at least I) veer all over the place with toe brakes.

Also, it's not entirely true to call it a European system vs. an American system, since German planes had toe brakes.
_
/Bjorn.

BennyMoore
06-04-2004, 11:34 PM
Well, I'd like to see one advantage of the Russian system over the American one.

I've never had a problem in real life with any sort of veering while braking and steering simultaneously. I've only had about thirteen hours in real life (medical and monetary problems are keeping me on the ground for the present), but every time my instructor and I have come in for a landing, it's been nasty crosswinds. I've never had any problems with the toe brakes, even while steering. Well, the first time I ever taxied I had this weird notion that pushing left pedal steered right and such, like on a bicycle. So I almost hit a parked helicopter. Not cool... But I got over that in a hurry!

BSS_Vidar
06-05-2004, 12:28 PM
My concerns are with the development teams that claim they try to be as accurate as possible with their sims. That is truely reflected in using this braking system in the IL-2 series for Russian planes, and my hat's off to them for doing it that way. However, I am worried about having the correct braking system (for accuracy's sake) in PF with the American and Japanees planes. Precision taxi characteristics will be a paramount issue for flight deck ops. Being able to lock one wheel and independantly control the other brake will be the key.
I've seen some argue that braking isn't that big of a deal because pilots don't taxi on their own on deck. They have directors... True, but I don't think we're gonna have the luxury of flight deck directors in PF. We're gonna have to do it on our own. It isn't that big of a deal... The Blacksheep have been successfuly taxing on flight decks in CFS2 even with that rediculous collision bubble for over 2 years.

http://www.blacksheep214.com/screenshots/cfs2/Stootn%20in%20the%20Groove.jpg

Adding another axis can't be that big of an issue. LOMAC's new patch will have 6 new axis for weapons systems and trim. Adding a second (independant) brake axis shouldn't be a big issue.
Let's hope they stick to "accuracy" in PF. My right CH Pro Pedal toe brake axis hasn't seen action since we quit CFS2. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

BSS_Vidar

[This message was edited by BSS_Vidar on Sat June 05 2004 at 05:29 PM.]

BSS_Vidar
06-05-2004, 12:50 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BennyMoore:
Well, I'd like to see one advantage of the Russian system over the American one.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Keep in mind, I am a full advocate for the Independant Differential Braking System. But their IS one disadvantage of independant brakes. Loss of braking pressure to one brake. That is a VERY bad thing. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif The Russians system is very hardy, dependable, easy to maintain, and perfect for what they needed it for... Just don't use it on the flight deck. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif

BSS_Vidar