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Dimensionaut_
08-16-2004, 01:57 AM
Viikate posted a D.XXI update at il2skins.com:

http://forums.il2skins.com/viewtopic.php?t=4909

<A HREF="http://www.1java.org/sh" TARGET=_blank>
http://www.uploadit.org/1javaserval/images.php
</A>

Dimensionaut_
08-16-2004, 01:57 AM
Viikate posted a D.XXI update at il2skins.com:

http://forums.il2skins.com/viewtopic.php?t=4909

<A HREF="http://www.1java.org/sh" TARGET=_blank>
http://www.uploadit.org/1javaserval/images.php
</A>

SUPERAEREO
08-16-2004, 03:12 AM
Very nice model!

But is it for FB or BoB...?

Either way I shall look forward to it, it's one of the planes we missed most for the early FAF, and it goes without saying that it would be nice to have some Dutch planes if BoB has a continent-based campaign.

S!



"The first time I ever saw a jet, I shot it down." - Chuck Yaeger

"Ja, Hunde, wollt ihr denn ewig leben?" - Friedrich der Große

"Timeo Danaos, et dona ferentes" - *neid

F19_Ob
08-16-2004, 03:43 AM
a beaty http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif
I just love that crapplane.
more of those plz.

Dimensionaut_
08-16-2004, 05:13 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SUPERAEREO:
Very nice model!

But is it for FB or BoB...?

Either way I shall look forward to it, it's one of the planes we missed most for the early FAF, and it goes without saying that it would be nice to have some Dutch planes if BoB has a continent-based campaign.

S!



"The first time I ever saw a jet, I shot it down." - Chuck Yaeger

"Ja, Hunde, wollt ihr denn ewig leben?" - Friedrich der Große

"Timeo Danaos, et dona ferentes" - *neid<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Viikate made three models: Sarja 3 (Mercury), Sarja 4 (Wasp) and the Dutch (Mercury) version. All three of them for FB.

<A HREF="http://www.1java.org/sh" TARGET=_blank>
http://www.uploadit.org/1javaserval/images.php
</A>

Extreme_One
08-16-2004, 05:16 AM
Nice!

Can't wait to fly it - I love cra@p planes.

S! Simon
'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''

http://server5.uploadit.org/files/simplysimon-Ex_1_sig.jpg

Submit your files to the IL2 website (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=23110283&m=788102065)
il2submissions@ubisoft.co.uk

McCallaway
08-16-2004, 05:17 AM
Superb model !

Buster82
08-16-2004, 05:38 AM
Amazing, a true beauty. i can't wait to finally fly this Dutch/Finnish plane. mainly the Dutch version ofcourse, as me beeing a Dutchie http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
great skins too

http://www.endlager.net/fis/pix/banners/fis_euro_us_02.gif

Buster82
08-16-2004, 06:44 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>The 234 was involved in the only fighter to fighter dogfight that occured.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

i assume you were talking about the dogfight over De Kooy. you've got any idea who flew this plane during that particular dogfight?

http://www.endlager.net/fis/pix/banners/fis_euro_us_02.gif

KGr.HH-Sunburst
08-16-2004, 09:37 AM
very very nice http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gif
i sure hope this plane would make it flyable
it would give me a good reason to fly more red http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
as i love to have a plane from my own country http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

http://www.hell-hounds.de
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v94/sunburst/FW190A6sigHH.jpg
''All your Mustangs are belong to us''

LeadSpitter_
08-16-2004, 10:10 AM
looks very cool, i wonder how hes allowed to show those screens.

http://img14.photobucket.com/albums/v43/leadspitter/LSIG1.gif

Viikate_
08-16-2004, 10:21 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LeadSpitter_:
looks very cool, i wonder how hes allowed to show those screens.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have no NDA and those pics are just rendered over FB screenshots.

-Viikate

Dimensionaut_
08-16-2004, 12:54 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Buster82:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>The 234 was involved in the only fighter to fighter dogfight that occured.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

i assume you were talking about the dogfight over De Kooy. you've got any idea who flew this plane during that particular dogfight?

http://www.endlager.net/fis/pix/banners/fis_euro_us_02.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The 219 was flown by Bob van der Stok (you all might know the name as one of the very few (3 i.r.c.) who actually DID get away and reach the UK with the great escape, later he commanded 322 Dutch fighter squadron). He was leader of the Mina flight (234, 223 (Van Zuylen got seperated while chasing bombers to the south and shot by bombers over Wassenaarsche ****) and 244 (Hateboer).
Upon landing the total of 8 D.XXI's got jumped by 9 109's. In that fight Bob claimed 1 shot down: crashed into the sea (Waddenzee) and one damaged.
Though German records show only one lost and some damaged. The one lost was the commander of Tr.Gr 186: Hptm Robitsch who bellied on De Kooij and send the rest of his years in Canada. (skin http://www.il2skins.com/?action=display&skinid=24 ). But he was shot by Van Overvest flying the 219 as part of the 'Kleuter' flight
Kurt 'Kuddel' Ubben claimed his first victory in this fight. (skin http://www.il2skins.com/?action=display&skinid=784 ) That must have been the 241 (lt. Bosch) which was shot to fire while rolling out from landing. The pilot escaped by letting himself fall out of the cockpit.

About the strange Dutch gunsight: this was a temporary (and not very good) solution, while awaiting gyroscopic gunsights like the Finnish D.XXI's had. Unfortunately those were not delivered (in time?).

<A HREF="http://www.1java.org/sh" TARGET=_blank>
http://www.uploadit.org/1javaserval/images.php
</A>

Billy_BigBoy
08-16-2004, 01:40 PM
[/QUOTE]

i assume you were talking about the dogfight over De Kooy. you've got any idea who flew this plane during that particular dogfight?

http://www.endlager.net/fis/pix/banners/fis_euro_us_02.gif [/QUOTE]

The 219 was flown by Bob van der Stok (you all might know the name as one of the very few (3 i.r.c.) who actually DID get away and reach the UK with the great escape, later he commanded 322 Dutch fighter squadron). He was leader of the Mina flight (234, 223 (Van Zuylen got seperated while chasing bombers to the south and shot by bombers over Wassenaarsche ****) and 244 (Hateboer).
Upon landing the total of 8 D.XXI's got jumped by 9 109's. In that fight Bob claimed 1 shot down: crashed into the sea (Waddenzee) and one damaged.
Though German records show only one lost and some damaged. The one lost was the commander of Tr.Gr 186: Hptm Robitsch who bellied on De Kooij and send the rest of his years in Canada. (skin http://www.il2skins.com/?action=display&skinid=24 ). But he was shot by Van Overvest flying the 219 as part of the 'Kleuter' flight
Kurt 'Kuddel' Ubben claimed his first victory in this fight. (skin http://www.il2skins.com/?action=display&skinid=784 ) That must have been the 241 (lt. Bosch) which was shot to fire while rolling out from landing. The pilot escaped by letting himself fall out of the cockpit.

About the strange Dutch gunsight: this was a temporary (and not very good) solution, while awaiting gyroscopic gunsights like the Finnish D.XXI's had. Unfortunately those were not delivered (in time?).
[/QUOTE]

Thanks for this story Serval, as a dutch-flyer i'm really interested in those facts.
BTW, any chance the G-2 will be involved in feature patches on add-ons?

http://www.forumsigs.com/users/Billy_BigBoy586/Billy_mod.jpg

Dimensionaut_
08-16-2004, 03:21 PM
Plans for the G.1 were never started since Finland only tested it, but never bought it (though many think otherwise, the confiscated G.1B's were meant for Spain and not Finland). So, we thought the G.1 was not valid for IL-2. But if you see what aircraft are in FB nowadays...

So, no G.1 for FB.
But if the Battle of France add-on for BoB will be realized, it will also contain a Dutch and Belgian part. With the G.1 being an important aircraft it should be there.

You can follow the progress of the Battle of France project here: http://battle-of-france-add-on.france-simulation.com/ (for me it sometimes won't load the first time, so retry if it does not work)

<A HREF="http://www.1java.org/sh" TARGET=_blank>
http://www.uploadit.org/1javaserval/images.php
</A>

[This message was edited by Serval_1JaVA on Mon August 16 2004 at 11:23 PM.]

Billy_BigBoy
08-16-2004, 03:31 PM
Thanks,
And you're right, it's the Fokker G1, not the G2 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif

http://www.forumsigs.com/users/Billy_BigBoy586/Billy_mod.jpg

Ki_Rin
08-17-2004, 07:47 AM
pass the dutchie pon the left hand side

"Consequences are for lesser beings; I am Ki-Rin...that is sanction enough"

RJNewly
08-17-2004, 11:28 AM
We have a saying in the Fox Velley here in Wisconsin where at least 50% of us are of Dutch heritage. "If you ain't Dutch you ain't much!"

Good info on the Dutch pilots, I didn't realize that any of them escaped the Nazi onslaught. This forum really gets some great contributions from some very intellegent people.

Salute!

Atomic_Marten
08-17-2004, 12:17 PM
Cannot believe this.... I would be telling you a big lie if I say that I'm just a fan of this bird. Man I just love Fokker D.XXI more than any other A/C we currently have in the game, and in several times I was wondering if someone maybe doing D.XXI model for FB.

To say it is a cr@p plane is pretty much correct statement, but majority of Soviet aviators during Finnish Winter War wouldn't think so.

And if we're going to have the D.XXI modelled for this game (or BoB) also in version with 2x20mm Oerlikon cannons underwings it would be more then awesome.

Cheers http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/93.gif

[This message was edited by Atomic_Marten on Tue August 17 2004 at 01:16 PM.]

IV|JG51Flatspin
08-17-2004, 08:57 PM
These 'cr@p' planes did a pretty good job fending off Russian attacks in Finland -- and in pitifully small numbers to boot. I can't wait for an opportunity to fly it...esp in a career that mimics RL as close as possible!!

Excellent skins BTW!! http://www.jg51.net/forums/images/smilies/thumbup2.gif

.- .- .-.- .- .-
IV/JG51_Fl@spin (http://www.jg51.net)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v222/Flatspin/FSbanner.bmp (http://www.forgottenskies.com/ForgottenWars/default.aspx)

JR_Greenhorn
08-17-2004, 09:28 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Atomic_Marten:
To say it is a cr@p plane is pretty much correct statement, but majority of Soviet aviators during Finnish Winter War wouldn't think so. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by IV|JG51Flatspin:
These 'cr@p' planes did a pretty good job fending off Russian attacks in Finland...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>You guys just don't "get" the whole "cr@p planes" thing, do you?

http://www.fargoairmuseum.org/F2G-1D.jpg

Atomic_Marten
08-17-2004, 09:49 PM
JR_Greenhorn I'm waiting. I don't know why you don't explain that to us in your initial post. So please enlighten us m8... what kind of plane should be attributed as "cr@p plane"? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Fly high http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/93.gif

JR_Greenhorn
08-17-2004, 10:34 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Atomic_Marten:
JR_Greenhorn I'm waiting....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Sorry for the delay then, but here goes:



"Cr@p planes" is an affectionate nickname used for various planes that fall well below the uber or even famous planes categories that get all the attention.

What qualifies a plane for cr@p status is hard to pin down, but fixed gear, no cannons, carburetted engine, open cockpit, hopelessly outclassed by the time it entered service, etc. are the usual types of qualifactions. Usually cr@p plane status has very little to do with actual historical performance, but rather the apparent lacklustre performance implied by the spec sheets, etc.

Those of us that are into "cr@p planes" like the fact that a technologically inferior plane was used beyond its ablilites on paper. In Il-2, some of the classic cr@p planes are the I-16, B-239, , P-11, etc.

If you ever see someone here say that they love cr@p planes, or that a particular type is a great cr@p plane, its not a negative reference at all. On the contrary, the cr@p plane enthusiast likes the fact that when he scores kills, no one will blame it on the plane.

Many of us find cr@p planes more fun to fly also. We like to work for those kills, or at least make the pursuer regret going for "easy prey." This most certainly goes for anything with a carburetted engine that can't be thrown around with reckless abandon.

If you want to hear more from the cr@p planes camp, search or dig up an old thread on the subject or start a new one like "Cr@p Plane lovers untie!" or something similar, and see what kind of responses you get.

I hope that suffices.

http://www.fargoairmuseum.org/F2G-1D.jpg

[This message was edited by JR_Greenhorn on Tue August 17 2004 at 09:45 PM.]

WTE_Galway
08-17-2004, 11:05 PM
i remember fondly shooting down a p39 online in a P11c and getting abused for flying a "overmodelled heap of sh@t that should not be allowed in the game"

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

JR_Greenhorn
08-17-2004, 11:18 PM
There's always an exception, isn't there?

Still, surely comments like that don't rear their ugly heads as often they would if you shot something down with a Ki-84.

Just read Leadspitter's recent thread about folks whining about a P-51.

http://www.fargoairmuseum.org/F2G-1D.jpg

actionhank1786
08-18-2004, 12:47 AM
I dont know if any of you read it or not, but in the issue of World War II Magazine, i have. They talked a lot about this D.XXI, and talked about if i remember right, a certain pilots fights through the war. I can't believe this guy was taking down all kinds of Russian fighters, and DB-3's in this thing. It looks so lightly armed and armoured. What is the armament on this beauty? By the way to the modeler, beautiful work!

http://img18.photobucket.com/albums/v54/Halfwayhank/Actionsig.png

Actionhank
~Aaron White

WTE_Galway
08-18-2004, 12:53 AM
very early models apparently had a pair of .303 class brownings and a pair of 20 mm cannon in gondolas

but i think almost all the operational ones were 4 x .303 brownings

LeLv30_RedWing
08-18-2004, 02:07 AM
Just to remind you what this bird did piloted by J.Sarvanto in Winter War...6 kills in 4 minutes http://www.sci.fi/~fta/finace92.htm

Dimensionaut_
08-18-2004, 07:47 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WTE_Galway:
very early models apparently had a pair of .303 class brownings and a pair of 20 mm cannon in gondolas

but i think almost all the operational ones were 4 x .303 brownings<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Finnish Mercury: 2 7.7 mm Browning in the nose and 2 in the wings
Finnish Wasp: 4 7.7 mm in the wings

Dutch: 7.9(!) mm Browning M36 in the wings. (7.9 mm was a Dutch modification for the browning)

Both the Danish and Finnish air forces tested 20 mm canons, but it has never been operational due to technical issues like the wooden wings not being stable enough for the canons.

<A HREF="http://www.1java.org/sh" TARGET=_blank>
http://www.uploadit.org/1javaserval/images.php
</A>

Red_Storm
08-18-2004, 10:15 AM
I wish we had the über-manoueverable (pilots stated more manoueverable than the early Spitfires) Fokker G.I with nine 7.9mm machine-guns. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

---

lil_labbit
08-18-2004, 10:52 AM
Fokker D XXI a cr@appy plane ? lol OK I'll fly crappy planes then! hehehe http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/icon_twisted.gif

And - well - ahum - must be because it's "Cr@ppy" that a few of these planes downed almost 75% of the German Air Transport fleet when they invaded the Netherlands http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif - That never happened thereafter http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Great models and skins though http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I also hope we get the Fokker g1a/g1b planes http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif It's the only one I want anyway (for a long time now).
http://members.home.nl/lil.labbit/g1a.jpg
1939 Fokker g1a

Some data:
(Mercury) G1A

Max Speed 475km
Cruise Speed 383km
Range 1500km
Motors Bristol Mercury VIII nine cilinder radials 830hp
Weapons Nose 8 x browing 7,9MM
Tail 1 x browing 7,9MM
Bombs 200 kg
(Wasp) G1B

Max Speed 443km
Cruise Speed 364km
Range 1400km
Motors Pratt&Whitney R-1535-sb4-G Twin Wasp Junior 14 cilinder radials 825pk
Weapons Nose 8 x browing 7,9MM
Tail 1 x browing 7,9MM
Bombs 200kg

http://members.home.nl/lil.labbit/remarkable.jpg
I wonder where that lightning came from ? LOL (also cr@ppy ? hehehe)

http://members.home.nl/lil.labbit/lilseesya.jpg
Night is better than Day

[This message was edited by lil_labbit on Wed August 18 2004 at 10:01 AM.]

[This message was edited by lil_labbit on Wed August 18 2004 at 10:04 AM.]

Dimensionaut_
08-18-2004, 12:47 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by lil_labbit:
Fokker D XXI a cr@appy plane ? lol OK I'll fly crappy planes then! hehehe http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/icon_twisted.gif

And - well - ahum - must be because it's "Cr@ppy" that a few of these planes downed almost 75% of the German Air Transport fleet when they invaded the Netherlands http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif - That never happened thereafter http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Great models and skins though http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I also hope we get the Fokker g1a/g1b planes http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif It's the only one I want anyway (for a long time now).
QUOTE]

Just be patient and wait for the BoF add-on http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
BTW: much of the 75% loss of the transport fleet has to be accredited to the AAA which was much more effective than the Germans expected. After all we did have some Bofors and Oelikons beside the WWI spandau MG's http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

And if you look at losses, the most crappy aircraft performed best:
At Bergen almost all G-1's were lost on the ground or damaged so bad that it took several days to repair them. So only a few could get to action. The D.XXI's did a good fight, but many were lost in the first two days, both on the ground and in the air. The C.X's and C.V's were the only ones that flew many missions and often returned safely. This because they flew very low and thus below the enemy fighters without being discovered. Also on the ground they were hidden pretty good. They were never discovered and bombed, where the G.1's were all standing in line at a platform... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/52.gif

<A HREF="http://www.1java.org/sh" TARGET=_blank>
http://www.uploadit.org/1javaserval/images.php
</A>

lil_labbit
08-18-2004, 12:54 PM
It still was 5 Germans shot down for every Dutch plane though http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

http://members.home.nl/lil.labbit/lilseesya.jpg
Night is better than Day

Atomic_Marten
08-18-2004, 01:44 PM
Info about aircraft specs is from xs4all.nl WW2 warbirds (http://www.xs4all.nl/~fbonne/warbirds/ww2htmls/)

I-153 "Seagull"
Powerplant: 1xShvetsov M-62 radial, 850hp (633,67kW)
Operational weight: 4098 lb typical (1859kg)
Max.Speed: 276mph at 15,090 ft (444kmh at 4599)
Climb rate (initial): 9,845ft in 3min 0sec (3000m in 3m0s)
Armament: 4x0,50in Beresin BS mounted in nose
Service ceiling: 35,105ft (10700m)
Range: 298 miles typical (480km), 547miles max. (880km)
First flight: Nov 1933

I-15bis
Powerplant: 1xM-25V (Wright R-1820 Cyclone) radial, 750hp (559,12kW)
Operational weight: ~4000 lb typical (less than 1900kg)
Max.Speed: 230mph at 9,845 ft (370kmh at 3001m)
Climb rate (initial): 3,280ft in 1m6s (to 1000m 1m6s)
Armament: 2 or 4x0,3in PV-1 nose (1000rounds each); later 4x0,3in ShKaS upper-nose (650 rounds each)
Service ceiling: 29,530ft (9001m)
Range: 286miles (460km)
First flight: Nov 1933

I-16 Type 10
Powerplant: 1xShvetsov M-25V radial, 750hp (559,12kW)
Operational weight: 3805 lb typical (1726kg)
Max.Speed: 278mph at 10,400ft (447kmh at 3170m)
Climb rate (initial): 16,405ft in 8m12s (5000m in 8m12s)
Armament: 2x0,30in ShkaS (nose 650 rounds each), 2x0,30in ShKaS (wing, 900rounds each)
Service ceiling: 27,000ft (8230m)
First flight: 31 Dec 1933

I-16 Type 24
Powerplant: 1xShvetsov M-63 radial, 1100hp (820,04 kW)
Operational weight: 4215 lb typical (1912kg)
Max.Speed: 304mph at 13,125ft (489kmh at 4000m)
Climb rate (initial): 16,405ft in 4m (5000m in 4m)
Armament: 2x0,30in ShkaS (nose 650 rounds each), 2x0,30in ShKaS (wing, 900rounds each), 1x0,50in Beresin BS (nose, 300rounds); 2x0,30in ShKaS (nose) and 2x20mm ShVAK (wing 180 rounds)--instead of Beresin in nose and 0,30in in wings--
Service ceiling: 35,500ft (10820m)
Range: 435 miles typical (700km)
First flight: 31 Dec 1933


vs.


Fokker D.XXI-2
Powerplant: 1xBristol Mercury VIII radial, 830hp (618,76kW)
Operational weight: 4519lb max. (2050kg)
Max.Speed: 286mph at 16,730 ft (460kmh at 5099)
Climb rate: 19,685ft in 7m30s (to 6000m in 7m30s)
Armament: 2x0,312in Browning M.36 (nose, 500 rounds each), 2x0,312in Browning M.36 (wing, 300 rounds each), --also there were also 20mm (Madsen) cannons used (wings) on D.XXI-1's
Service ceiling: 36,090ft (11000m)
Range: 578 miles max. (930km max.)
First flight: 27 March 1936


Above I posted some info that I found on the internet about specifications of the Fokker D.XXI-2 and it's (more or less) main Soviet opponents during Winter War. What is really interesting to notice is the fact that Fokker D.XXI have closed canopy (that was very nice when flying in winter conditions http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif ) when compared to the Soviet fighters at the time.


A brief history of FAF Fokker D.XXI's (although not the whole story http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif ) in Winter War 30Nov.1939 - 13March1940


Finland received 7 D.XXI-2's, and have license to make these aircraft, so they built 38 D.XXI-3's and delivered and delivered 'em during 1939. That A/C's served in Finland Air Force during Winter War. D.XXI-3's were similar to D.XXI-2's.

LLv24 (and LLv26) have about 35 serviceable Fokker's and by the end of the Winter War 22 D.XXI's were serviceable.

Pilots of these two FAF units claimed 120 aircraft shot down, 100 aircraft of this number were bombers. Their loss (total) was 11 aircraft (9 were shot down in combat, 1 by flak and one in flying accident).

Here's the list of Finnish ace pilots from LLv24 & LLv26 who were enjoy success while flying D.XXI's:

1Lt J.Sarvanto 13
WO V.Py¶tsia 7,5
1Lt T.Huhanantti 6
MSgt K.Virta 6
1Lt P.E.Sovelius 5,5
SSgt P.Tilli 5
1Lt U.Nieminen 5


And JR_Greenhorn, yes I can see that we have no differences about -so widely used on this forum- term "cr@p plane". My intention that I want to achieve by posting this is that I clarify my oppinion: I really cannot see the reason why in the God's name the Soviet pilots during Winter War should descibe Fokker fighters as "cr@p planes". Can you?

masamainio
08-18-2004, 03:06 PM
Operational victories/losses: Winter War 130/9; Continuation War 61/7

http://www.sci.fi/~ambush/faf/fighters.html#fokkeri

http://www.sci.fi/~ambush/faf/30C_AOH.jpg http://www.sci.fi/~ambush/faf/fr99.jpg http://www.sci.fi/~ambush/faf/ram1_12.jpg

Atomic_Marten
08-18-2004, 03:18 PM
20mm cannons were used. 29 January 1940 2Lt Olli Puhakka, flying Fokker FR-76, downed Soviet DB-3 bomber using only 18 rounds from 20mm cannon and 60-70MG rounds. Also he squeeze the trigger when he was on distance about 500m from bomber. His second burst hit the port engine, while third burst hit starboard engine. Then he close on bomber, in order to finish him off, but his guns were jammed. After a while bomber crash-landed.

Fly high http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/93.gif

JR_Greenhorn
08-18-2004, 03:34 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Atomic_Marten:
And JR_Greenhorn, yes I can see that we have no differences about -so widely used on this forum- term "cr@p plane". My intention that I want to achieve by posting this is that I clarify my oppinion: I really cannot see the reason why in the God's name the Soviet pilots during Winter War should descibe Fokker fighters as "cr@p planes". Can you?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>No, I can't pretend to know what went on other than the usual running down of the enemy--I would wager that Finnish pilots had plenty to say about Soviet equipment also.

I just wanted to make the point that "cr@p planes" isn't always negative when used on these forums.
So many people here are unaware that there is a strong following for these aircraft, and they miss the point when the term is taken as face value.

http://www.fargoairmuseum.org/F2G-1D.jpg

Atomic_Marten
08-18-2004, 04:05 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JR_Greenhorn:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Atomic_Marten:
To say it is a cr@p plane is pretty much correct statement, but majority of Soviet aviators during Finnish Winter War wouldn't think so.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You guys just don't "get" the whole "cr@p planes" thing, do you?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>No, I can't pretend to know what went on other than the usual running down of the enemy--I would wager that Finnish pilots had plenty to say about Soviet equipment also.

I just wanted to make the point that "cr@p planes" isn't always negative when used on these forums.
So many people here are unaware that there is a strong following for these aircraft, and they miss the point when the term is taken as face value.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Look closer to what I actually posted in my first topic, especially bold text. Actually I stated my opinion of this A/C as a cr@ppy one. At first I was just wonder why are you quoted me in such way. I wasn't able to came up with other reason other then think you clearly want to just insult someone. As you keep posting answers to my posts, I'm more and more convinced of just that... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

Actually my original post that Soviet pilots wouldn't think that Fokker is cr@p plane comes up from my ironical comment that reflects things that were goin' on in air combat during Winter War. Because of insane Finnish succes with that plane.

Is it worthy to even mention that I don't actually think that "cr@p plane" term is a negative way to describe some aircraft... nor did I express that in my post. Furthermore, I stated that Fokker is "pretty much cr@ppy plane" and is also my favourite.

And yes, obviously you missed my point...

Airborn_
08-18-2004, 09:38 PM
lol@Atomic_Marten,

Well, if the ones that associated the D XXI with a cr@p-plane did not mean it in a "loving way", or in other words, had alterior motives, then I think you've just punished them quite sufficiently with the facts, known about this airplane. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Viikate, I think you've done a masterpiece on that plane, it is a true beauty and so wonderfully detailed! It reminds me in every way of the high Finnish standard, set by Jippo. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

@Serval: those Dutch skins are fantastic and they absolutely make the stories in the book "Nederlands Vliegers in het Vuur" (Dutch Flyers surrounded by Fire) by C.C. Küpfer, 2nd edition 1946, come alive!

woofiedog
08-18-2004, 11:41 PM
Great Work! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gifThis will be a Mint stall mate to the Fiat 50, Gladiator, and Fiat 42.
Although it's going to be AI at first... the flyable model is going to be a Blast.
Thank's http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

http://www.ussbiddle.org/pictures/bennett_sunset_carib_thumb.jpg
USS Biddle DLG 34/CG 34

Dimensionaut_
08-19-2004, 01:00 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Atomic_Marten:
20mm cannons were used. 29 January 1940 2Lt Olli Puhakka, flying Fokker FR-76, downed Soviet DB-3 bomber using only 18 rounds from 20mm cannon and 60-70MG rounds. Also he squeeze the trigger when he was on distance about 500m from bomber. His second burst hit the port engine, while third burst hit starboard engine. Then he close on bomber, in order to finish him off, but his guns were jammed. After a while bomber crash-landed.

Fly high http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/93.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There was only one Finnish D.XXI with 20 mm cannons for test purposes. But it was discontinued.

The only airforce that had real plans for 20 mm cannons was the Danish Airforce. But those D.XXI's never saw action.

<A HREF="http://www.1java.org/sh" TARGET=_blank>
http://www.uploadit.org/1javaserval/images.php
</A>

Dimensionaut_
08-19-2004, 01:06 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Atomic_Marten:
Info about aircraft specs is from http://www.xs4all.nl/~fbonne/warbirds/ww2htmls/

Fokker D.XXI-2
Powerplant: 1xBristol Mercury VIII radial, 830hp (618,76kW)
Operational weight: 4519lb max. (2050kg)
Max.Speed: 286mph at 16,730 ft (460kmh at 5099)
Climb rate: 19,685ft in 7m30s (to 6000m in 7m30s)
Armament: 2x0,312in Browning M.36 (nose, 500 rounds each), 2x0,312in Browning M.36 (wing, 300 rounds each), --also there were also 20mm (Madsen) cannons used (wings) on D.XXI-1's
Service ceiling: 36,090ft (11000m)
Range: 578 miles max. (930km max.)
First flight: 27 March 1936
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Many sources on Internet tend to mix up Dutch, Danish and the 4 Finnish versions badly in equipment and performances.

The versions there are:
-prototype
- Dutch version 4 x M.36 7.9 mm in wings
- Danish version 2 x 7.9 mm in fuselage
later 2 x 20mm Madsens were added
- Finnish Sarja 1 to 3 (Mercury) 2 x 7.7 mm fuselage and 2 x 7.7 mm in wings
- Finnish Sarja 4 (Wasp) 4 x 7.7 mm in wings

The Finnish did tests with 20 mm cannons and also with retractable gear, but this was not standard equipment.

<A HREF="http://www.1java.org/sh" TARGET=_blank>
http://www.uploadit.org/1javaserval/images.php
</A>

Buster82
08-19-2004, 01:49 AM
What kind of plane is the D.XXI actually?
is it a B&Z plane (in performance, not guns http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif )
or is it a T&B plane? or is it a bit of both?

http://www.endlager.net/fis/pix/banners/fis_euro_us_02.gif

S1.Tempest
08-19-2004, 07:51 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Buster82:
What kind of plane is the D.XXI actually?
is it a B&Z plane (in performance, not guns http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif )
or is it a T&B plane? or is it a bit of both?

http://www.endlager.net/fis/pix/banners/fis_euro_us_02.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Fokker loses early war russian planes (I-16 and I-153) in means of turn and speed.

FAF officer called Eka Magnusson said to pilots in LLv.24 that when one of these are on your tail, dive, they should fell apart or stop the chase.

If you ask dumb question, you are dumb for moment. If you dont ask question, you are just stupid.

Atomic_Marten
08-19-2004, 09:13 AM
Yes Java you're quite right. The only mentioned Fokker in combat equipped with 20mm's was FR-76. And also on that page from which I take specs for these A/C's I found notice that D.XXI-2 isn't in fact Finnish model, they make their own D.XXI-3's (by license acquired) and these models are similar in performances as D.XXI-2's. At least they say so, and it sounds quite un-precise to me http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif.(BTW anyone noticed I-16 type 24's amazing climb ability in compare to the others in these specs? very questionable... in game it is about a minute longer than that, at least in A/C viewer specs that is).

Could you please post specs for Finnish Fokker model(s) during Winter War (I assume that would be D.XXI-(2)3 model? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif). I would appreciate that.

Fly nice http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/93.gif

Atomic_Marten
08-19-2004, 09:23 AM
About this usage of 20mm cannons on FR-76 I found info about that from Osprey Aviation Elite No.4 "Lentolaivue 24", page 8, 22, 23.

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/93.gif

Viikate_
08-19-2004, 09:37 AM
Someone requested a Danish version.
http://sinuhe.jypoly.fi/~71955/Danish.jpg

2 x 7.9mm MGs in fucelage and 2 x 20mm Madsen cannons in wings. Cannons could be selected from weapons menu, because only few Danish Fokkers had them.

I need some help with the skin, because I couldn't find any drawings/pic that shows how the camo pattern goes at right side and top side.

I haven't ask Oleg if he is willing to include the Danish version. After all it didn't saw any action (One almost got airborne).

-Viikate

Dimensionaut_
08-23-2004, 06:11 AM
Guess who has it... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/mockface.gif

<A HREF="http://www.1java.org/sh" TARGET=_blank>
http://www.uploadit.org/1javaserval/images.php
</A>

Dimensionaut_
08-23-2004, 06:23 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Could you please post specs for Finnish Fokker model(s) during Winter War (I assume that would be D.XXI-(2)3 model? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif). I would appreciate that.

Fly nice http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/93.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'll look up the exact Finnish datials later.
BTW: If they talk about version 1, 2, 3, 4 and even 5. They mean Finnish production batches. So, in no way its's the Dutch or Danish version.
Batch 1 to 3 were quite similar (only small changes) Batch 1 was a batch of seven made by Fokker. All others were produced in Finland. So, the performance of Batch 1 to 3 was the same.
Batch 4 had a Wasp engine, some extra armor and more cockpit windows. due to this all it performed less than the Mercury versions.
Batch 5 is only a newer production batch of batch 4. Technically it was the same.

<A HREF="http://www.1java.org/sh" TARGET=_blank>
http://www.uploadit.org/1javaserval/images.php
</A>

Wallstein
08-23-2004, 08:05 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Serval_1JaVA:
"Viikate posted a D.XXI update..."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I can´t wait to get this. It will be one of the "dream come true" -things. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/heart.gif

Atomic_Marten
11-02-2004, 01:35 PM
BIG Bump. Guys take a look at this masterpiece. This thread should be bumped frequently 'till the D.XXI maiden fly in the IL2 series. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

F19_tintin
05-11-2006, 05:12 AM
wooah old post http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif bump
http://www.f19vs.se/fokker_now.jpg

HotelBushranger
05-11-2006, 05:23 AM
Woe to you, the mods shall be after you http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

Why bring up an old Fokker topic when there are already 2 floating about with 8 pages each? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

GerritJ9
05-11-2006, 01:29 PM
In the 1970s Hugo Hooftman published several booklets about Dutch aircraft, including the G-1 and the D.XXI, I have copies of both. The G-1 booklet is in front of me now, but I don't know where the D.XXI booklet is- probably under a large pile of motorcycle magazines. Will start looking for it as it contains photos of all variants- Dutch, Finnish and Danish, as well as a sketch of a D.XXI in Spanish Republican colours. From memory, Hooftman stated that the Republicans were building several of them and one was almost ready for flight testing when the end came. Be an interesting bird for Spanish Civil War fans.