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GH_Klingstroem
05-15-2004, 12:57 PM
A story from Guenter Schack flyinh his fw190a-4 on dec. 17 1942

We ha to fly escort sorties for ju88 bombers. When we came near to the target we were immediately attacked by Soviets fighters. But when we came among them with our new birds the disappeared very quickly. During the action I suddenly saw five "cementers" (Il-2 bombers) fly off in an easterly direction. We hastened to catch them but in spite of my two cannons and two heavy guns, I could not make a kill, only causing some damage to them. On the return flight, at an altitude of 6500feet, we met unexpectedly, four Pe-2 bombers close to our own airfield. I called to the pilot of my nearest aircarft. "Max you take the right, I will take the left one". I closed slowly on the Pe-2s. When I was was at a distance of about 500feet, I was travelling almost exactly at their speed and their tail gunners opened fire on me. I took careful aim, and had hardly pushed the firing button, when flames burst out of my target. Max hurried near like mad, and fired, but did not register one single hit, then slipped away over the Soviets. I got a quick shot at the next one and, to my surprise, this aircraft also went down in flames. Now the other two began to bank and turn away to the east. I followed, firing at them alternately, wondering all the time how long my ammunition would last. Suddenly both burst into flames at the same time. Max was only able to witness my kills. One of the Pe-2s kept its altitude for a long time, trailing a long black smoke-cloud behind. Two of the crew baled out and soon after, the plane crasched some miles away from the other. Meanwhile we had crossed the russian lines and on the way home we met three more Pe-2s. Max hurried at them again like mad, and this time he got one. My ammunition was almost gone, only one Mg still firing, so I turned away. Hardly had we set course for home when we spotted three more Pe-2s ahead. Max now had to attack alone but he was so nervous that he didn't get one single hit, As we were well into the german area I was not willing to let them go unpunished. I stalked near with my single Mg, aimed between fuselage and engine where the tank was situated, and fired. I shouted with excitement when flames came out. I did not waste a moment, and fired at the next one. Smoke began to pour from it too, but now all my ammunition had gone. The russian aircraft, which was burning, glided down and made a belly landing, continuing to burn on the ground.

Now doesnt that sound like successful mission!! That planes seems so easy to down!

source: "Aircraft versus aircraft" by Norman Franks

GH_Klingstroem
05-15-2004, 12:57 PM
A story from Guenter Schack flyinh his fw190a-4 on dec. 17 1942

We ha to fly escort sorties for ju88 bombers. When we came near to the target we were immediately attacked by Soviets fighters. But when we came among them with our new birds the disappeared very quickly. During the action I suddenly saw five "cementers" (Il-2 bombers) fly off in an easterly direction. We hastened to catch them but in spite of my two cannons and two heavy guns, I could not make a kill, only causing some damage to them. On the return flight, at an altitude of 6500feet, we met unexpectedly, four Pe-2 bombers close to our own airfield. I called to the pilot of my nearest aircarft. "Max you take the right, I will take the left one". I closed slowly on the Pe-2s. When I was was at a distance of about 500feet, I was travelling almost exactly at their speed and their tail gunners opened fire on me. I took careful aim, and had hardly pushed the firing button, when flames burst out of my target. Max hurried near like mad, and fired, but did not register one single hit, then slipped away over the Soviets. I got a quick shot at the next one and, to my surprise, this aircraft also went down in flames. Now the other two began to bank and turn away to the east. I followed, firing at them alternately, wondering all the time how long my ammunition would last. Suddenly both burst into flames at the same time. Max was only able to witness my kills. One of the Pe-2s kept its altitude for a long time, trailing a long black smoke-cloud behind. Two of the crew baled out and soon after, the plane crasched some miles away from the other. Meanwhile we had crossed the russian lines and on the way home we met three more Pe-2s. Max hurried at them again like mad, and this time he got one. My ammunition was almost gone, only one Mg still firing, so I turned away. Hardly had we set course for home when we spotted three more Pe-2s ahead. Max now had to attack alone but he was so nervous that he didn't get one single hit, As we were well into the german area I was not willing to let them go unpunished. I stalked near with my single Mg, aimed between fuselage and engine where the tank was situated, and fired. I shouted with excitement when flames came out. I did not waste a moment, and fired at the next one. Smoke began to pour from it too, but now all my ammunition had gone. The russian aircraft, which was burning, glided down and made a belly landing, continuing to burn on the ground.

Now doesnt that sound like successful mission!! That planes seems so easy to down!

source: "Aircraft versus aircraft" by Norman Franks

LEXX_Luthor
05-15-2004, 05:05 PM
Nice story thanks. Website with link or just book?

LOL I wondered what happened to the poor lonely abandoned Ju~88s.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>We had to fly escort sorties for ju88 bombers.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[This message was edited by LEXX_Luthor on Sat May 15 2004 at 04:14 PM.]

[This message was edited by LEXX_Luthor on Sat May 15 2004 at 04:15 PM.]

Taylortony
05-15-2004, 08:05 PM
Nice story, http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I was reading yesterday about FW190's moving to a forward operating base in the combat zone during the invasion, It was the norm to carry a mechanic with you, he would crawl into the rear fuselage and because of the access etc could not get out or carry a chute, so if hit the pilots used to try to crash land them to save the "passenger" instead of bailing out...sadly a lot of them died, what a dreadful way to go lying in the back of a FW190 in combat not being able to see what was going on

GH_Klingstroem
05-16-2004, 07:06 AM
Its from a book Called "aircraft versus aircraft" written ny a guy called Norman Franks... Really good book. Its about how diff. AC fought diff tactics vs other AC... Goes from WW1- to vitnamn.. Very intresting!

Curly_109
05-16-2004, 07:46 AM
That is a good ace story of ww2... lot of nerves, luck & good plane http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif (and no sniper bomber gunners like in "our world" of IL-2----here I go again whining http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/93.gif)

BerkshireHunt
05-16-2004, 10:21 AM
Seems the Pe2s being shot at didn't have self- sealing tanks- in effect, they were just large flying petrol cans waiting for someone to ignite them- and they were devastated by one light machine gun. That's interesting because I had always assumed that the Soviets had absorbed the lessons of the Battle of Britain by June 1941 and introduced self- sealing tanks. Of course Stalin didn't expect to be invaded by Germany so perhaps the VVS just didn't bother.

But the difference between aircraft in 'combat survivability' is sometimes puzzling. I just read this in Osprey's 'Me110 Zerstoerer Aces' book (by an unknown pilot of ZG26):

"It was only from 5000m upwards that our machines (Bf110s) could show what they could do. But the 'Ratas' (I-16s) wouldn't play. The so- and- so's buzzed around in the lower regions attacking our ground forces and didn't give a damn what was happening above them. This was all very well for our kampfgruppen, who were going about their business completely undisturbed. But the infantry were sending up howls of protest and asking for help..
Some bright spark back in Berlin had discovered that the best way to tackle a Rata (I-16) was from below. But how do you get underneath a machine that's flying ten metres above the ground? We couldn't dive on them either for then we were simply shooting up our own troops below them. And from the sides the damn things seemed to be armoured like tortoises!
So there was no option but to attack them at their home bases. It was the same as in Crete but with one big difference. There we had found nothing but here the enemy machines were lined up in neat rows in front of their hangers. You could see the propellor discs shining in the sunlight from miles away. They made ideal targets.
But do you think the things would burn? Not a chance. Two or three passes firing with everything you've got, Then look back and what did you see? Forty or so machines still parked as if on parade, with perhaps one or two on fire- no more. Not even small bombs helped. A few aircraft might tip over and point a wing at the sky, but that was all. And next morining when you went through the whole performance again, there they would be all standing upright again!"

OK, so when parked outside their hangers perhaps they had empty tanks (possibly self- sealing tanks?) but the general impression is that the wooden I-16 was structurally very tough. Tactically, they were well used- the German pilots could only shoot at them at oblique angles throwing off their accuracy and playing to the I-16's strong suit- the structural integrity of its monocoque wooden fuselage. Possibly also, the simplicity of the I-16's systems layout made it hard to inflict catastrophic damage. (So different from a '109- packed to the gunwhales with pushrods, wires, tubes, valves and metering devices- all transmitting forces or carrying some substance vital to the workings of an important sub- system).

Incidentally, the bit about not being able to shoot because your own troops are down below is a facet of war almost entirely missing from FB/AEP- because we don't have a gameworld populated with infantry. But in the real world it directly affects the way you engage in air combat. Maybe in the Pacific sim?

AirBot
05-16-2004, 12:17 PM
I seem to recall that troops will be modelled in PF. So yeah, I guess we'll now have to worry about that as well.

Thanks for the story by the way Klingstroem .

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BerkshireHunt:
Seems the Pe2s being shot at didn't have self- sealing tanks- in effect, they were just large flying petrol cans waiting for someone to ignite them- and they were devastated by one light machine gun. That's interesting because I had always assumed that the Soviets had absorbed the lessons of the Battle of Britain by June 1941 and introduced self- sealing tanks. Of course Stalin didn't expect to be invaded by Germany so perhaps the VVS just didn't bother.

But the difference between aircraft in 'combat survivability' is sometimes puzzling. I just read this in Osprey's 'Me110 Zerstoerer Aces' book (by an unknown pilot of ZG26):

"It was only from 5000m upwards that our machines (Bf110s) could show what they could do. But the 'Ratas' (I-16s) wouldn't play. The so- and- so's buzzed around in the lower regions attacking our ground forces and didn't give a damn what was happening above them. This was all very well for our kampfgruppen, who were going about their business completely undisturbed. But the infantry were sending up howls of protest and asking for help..
Some bright spark back in Berlin had discovered that the best way to tackle a Rata (I-16) was from below. But how do you get underneath a machine that's flying ten metres above the ground? We couldn't dive on them either for then we were simply shooting up our own troops below them. And from the sides the damn things seemed to be armoured like tortoises!
So there was no option but to attack them at their home bases. It was the same as in Crete but with one big difference. There we had found nothing but here the enemy machines were lined up in neat rows in front of their hangers. You could see the propellor discs shining in the sunlight from miles away. They made ideal targets.
But do you think the things would burn? Not a chance. Two or three passes firing with everything you've got, Then look back and what did you see? Forty or so machines still parked as if on parade, with perhaps one or two on fire- no more. Not even small bombs helped. A few aircraft might tip over and point a wing at the sky, but that was all. And next morining when you went through the whole performance again, there they would be all standing upright again!"

OK, so when parked outside their hangers perhaps they had empty tanks (possibly self- sealing tanks?) but the general impression is that the wooden I-16 was structurally very tough. Tactically, they were well used- the German pilots could only shoot at them at oblique angles throwing off their accuracy and playing to the I-16's strong suit- the structural integrity of its monocoque wooden fuselage. Possibly also, the simplicity of the I-16's systems layout made it hard to inflict catastrophic damage. (So different from a '109- packed to the gunwhales with pushrods, wires, tubes, valves and metering devices- all transmitting forces or carrying some substance vital to the workings of an important sub- system).

Incidentally, the bit about not being able to shoot because your own troops are down below is a facet of war almost entirely missing from FB/AEP- because we don't have a gameworld populated with infantry. But in the real world it directly affects the way you engage in air combat. Maybe in the Pacific sim?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>