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View Full Version : 1C:Maddox, We need clarification of Pilot Skill levels?



nearmiss
06-05-2004, 02:35 PM
We need a capable explanation! 1C:Maddox step up and carefully explain exactly what the logic is and what it means to select pilot skills at the levels of choice. Also, what are consequences when there are variations between friendly and enemy flight groups.

How does the pilot skill level selections alter or affect missions. I'm thinking in terms of the play through from the friendly and enemy points of view based on Pilot skill level selections/combinations.

I would like to know exactly what pilot skill level means to a mission builder or user just making pilot skill level selections.

I've read all kinds of thoughts and interpretations from users. Some say ACE enemy AI are 100% accurate shooters, some say Veteran enemy are 70% accurate shooters, some say skill levels affect the way AI fly, position and shoot targets. Some say...some say.

We need a good solid explanation once and for all. PM me if you don't want to post the information. I'll even host it on a 3rd party site, if there is some legal issue about it.

Examples:

Offline mission,

What if Player selects ACE and then selects other friendly flight groups ACE as well?

What if Player selects ACE, and then selects other friendly flight groups Average?

What if Player selects VETERAN, and then selects other friendly flight groups Average?

What if Player selects VETERAN, and then selects other friendly flight groups Veteran?

What if Player selects VETERAN, and then selects other friendly flight groups ACE?

What if Player selects ACE, and then selects other friendly flight groups ACE? Then Player selects ACE for enemy flight groups?

What if Player selects ACE, and then selects other friendly flight groups VETERAN? Then Player selects AVERAGE for enemy flight groups?

What if Player selects ACE, and then selects other friendly flight groups AVERAGE? Then Player selects ACE for enemy FIGHTER flight groups and ACE for enemy Bomber Groups?

I think I've made it clear enough. I don't think this request is out of line or asking to much. So...tweak up your ears and put up a simple posting with a logical explanation. Such a posting would save most of us hours of tweaking and applying choices for pilot skill levels.

I know I've heard the old we're too busy bit until it's coming out my ears. Many of the users on these boards have been around two years or better.

Don't you think by now you could make some clarification of issues within the IL2-FB clear to us?

I'm not mad about this, it's just not a biggy to explain something like this. I'm sure it's just a matter of the AI dev putting up a post. He doesn't have to reveal himself, just put up the information. There are some competent members on these boards and a few dummies, but I'm http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif sure we can determine the quality of information if you put it up.

Oh! if you've already put it up before somewhere and I missed it...you can blow off some steam at me. I'm not wearing my feelings on my sleeves...I genuinely will listen to a Donkey, if he could talk and explain it to me.

"Hee Haw", the Veteran Skill level is used "Hee Haw" in the following "Hee Haw" fashion. "Hee Haw" you first need to... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif

--------------- http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif

I've been told to quit smiling and my teeth will quit hurting http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

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[This message was edited by nearmiss on Sat June 05 2004 at 01:48 PM.]

[This message was edited by nearmiss on Sat June 05 2004 at 01:56 PM.]

nearmiss
06-05-2004, 02:35 PM
We need a capable explanation! 1C:Maddox step up and carefully explain exactly what the logic is and what it means to select pilot skills at the levels of choice. Also, what are consequences when there are variations between friendly and enemy flight groups.

How does the pilot skill level selections alter or affect missions. I'm thinking in terms of the play through from the friendly and enemy points of view based on Pilot skill level selections/combinations.

I would like to know exactly what pilot skill level means to a mission builder or user just making pilot skill level selections.

I've read all kinds of thoughts and interpretations from users. Some say ACE enemy AI are 100% accurate shooters, some say Veteran enemy are 70% accurate shooters, some say skill levels affect the way AI fly, position and shoot targets. Some say...some say.

We need a good solid explanation once and for all. PM me if you don't want to post the information. I'll even host it on a 3rd party site, if there is some legal issue about it.

Examples:

Offline mission,

What if Player selects ACE and then selects other friendly flight groups ACE as well?

What if Player selects ACE, and then selects other friendly flight groups Average?

What if Player selects VETERAN, and then selects other friendly flight groups Average?

What if Player selects VETERAN, and then selects other friendly flight groups Veteran?

What if Player selects VETERAN, and then selects other friendly flight groups ACE?

What if Player selects ACE, and then selects other friendly flight groups ACE? Then Player selects ACE for enemy flight groups?

What if Player selects ACE, and then selects other friendly flight groups VETERAN? Then Player selects AVERAGE for enemy flight groups?

What if Player selects ACE, and then selects other friendly flight groups AVERAGE? Then Player selects ACE for enemy FIGHTER flight groups and ACE for enemy Bomber Groups?

I think I've made it clear enough. I don't think this request is out of line or asking to much. So...tweak up your ears and put up a simple posting with a logical explanation. Such a posting would save most of us hours of tweaking and applying choices for pilot skill levels.

I know I've heard the old we're too busy bit until it's coming out my ears. Many of the users on these boards have been around two years or better.

Don't you think by now you could make some clarification of issues within the IL2-FB clear to us?

I'm not mad about this, it's just not a biggy to explain something like this. I'm sure it's just a matter of the AI dev putting up a post. He doesn't have to reveal himself, just put up the information. There are some competent members on these boards and a few dummies, but I'm http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif sure we can determine the quality of information if you put it up.

Oh! if you've already put it up before somewhere and I missed it...you can blow off some steam at me. I'm not wearing my feelings on my sleeves...I genuinely will listen to a Donkey, if he could talk and explain it to me.

"Hee Haw", the Veteran Skill level is used "Hee Haw" in the following "Hee Haw" fashion. "Hee Haw" you first need to... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif

--------------- http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif

I've been told to quit smiling and my teeth will quit hurting http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

http://avsims.com/portal/modules/liens/images/banner.gif (http://avsims.com/portal/)

[This message was edited by nearmiss on Sat June 05 2004 at 01:48 PM.]

[This message was edited by nearmiss on Sat June 05 2004 at 01:56 PM.]

LEXX_Luthor
06-05-2004, 05:19 PM
nearmiss, they don't know anymore. Nobody knows. The AI code is buried in assembly language. The day before the programmer was to write his notes, he was tragically struck down by a meteorite. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif


__________________
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif Flyable Swedish "Gladiator" listed as J8A ...in Aces Expansion Pack

"You will still have FB , you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
:
"Damn.....Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

BBB_Hyperion
06-05-2004, 05:57 PM
It was hard to write and should be hard to understand.

Regards,
Hyperion

nearmiss
06-05-2004, 07:04 PM
Not sure you if guys are serious or no.

1C:Maddox has it all down tight. All we've got to do is smoke'm out.

I'm harmless http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/icon_twisted.gif

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stef51
06-05-2004, 07:29 PM
Yeah, I know how you feel.. However, when designing missions, I only follow the following (my interpretation of course... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif).

1--Aces and veterans will fire in head on combat. Average and below will not.

2-- Skill levels are very important in evasive maneuvers. Aces will evade like crazy. Rookies won't do evasion that much.

3-- If you want to shoot more planes, never assign aces or veterans for the enemy. A fight against an aces = very difficult to shoot due to evasive maneuvers so you will use lots of ammos to do it. Depending on the year and country, you may never meet an ace anyway.

Unless you want a tough fight, assign average to all crafts, friend or not. Assign an ace to an ememy and he will evade like crazy. Assign it to your wingman and he will evade like crazy...etc Usually, it's enough for me in designing missions by following the above...

Stef

LEXX_Luthor
06-05-2004, 07:38 PM
In large dogfights, you often get bounced. That is very realistic.

On a very large scale, the AI works great. The nice thing is that you can get "historical results" by massaging the AI. Set 1941 VVS planes to Rookie and center German skill around Vet and you get, as Oleg said..."ten times better."

Does not work onwhine dogfighter servers where the humanoid piloted sides have equally distributed gaming skills, but there is no realism there anyway.



__________________
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif Flyable Swedish "Gladiator" listed as J8A ...in Aces Expansion Pack

"You will still have FB , you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
:
"Damn.....Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

Tater-SW-
06-05-2004, 11:25 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
In large dogfights, you often get bounced. That is very realistic.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If it's already a dogfight, it isn't a bounce.

A bounce requires that the first they know of you is a bullet hitting your plane, or missed tracers flying by.

tater

LEXX_Luthor
06-05-2004, 11:28 PM
Exactly, you are focused on your target and you get bounced in a large dogfight and you don't know it until you get hit or see tracers fly past you.

__________________
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif Flyable Swedish "Gladiator" listed as J8A ...in Aces Expansion Pack

"You will still have FB , you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
:
"Damn.....Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

Tater-SW-
06-06-2004, 09:47 AM
Target fixation is different, IMO. In years of online flying I have never considered a drag and bag a bounce, for example.

A real bounce means total surprise. A flight of planes below, you dive through and make a pass and they do NOTHING except the plane you hit, and that target would only do something after the rounds started hitting (or tracers flew past if you missed). If he has a radio, there's a chance the other planes hear him, but he might be dead without the others ever seeing you either.

A real bounce in IL-2 is impossible vs AI as far as I can tell. Unless they are fixated and shooting (or about to) they seem to jink as soon as you get within a certain range on their 6 (even on their low six where they can't see you), and they almost always jink the second I pull the trigger it seems, even though the rounds haven't hit them yet.

tater

nearmiss
06-06-2004, 11:15 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tater-SW-:
Target fixation is different, IMO. In years of online flying I have never considered a drag and bag a bounce, for example.

A real bounce means total surprise. A flight of planes below, you dive through and make a pass and they do NOTHING except the plane you hit, and that target would only do something after the rounds started hitting (or tracers flew past if you missed). If he has a radio, there's a chance the other planes hear him, but he might be dead without the others ever seeing you either.

A real bounce in IL-2 is impossible vs AI as far as I can tell. Unless they are fixated and shooting (or about to) they seem to jink as soon as you get within a certain range on their 6 (even on their low six where they can't see you), and they almost always jink the second I pull the trigger it seems, even though the rounds haven't hit them yet.

tater<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sure wish Oleg would read it and do something about it. You cannot surprise the enemy AI, that's a given.

I've often felt the AI enemy jinked like crazy when I got within the range of my convergence setting or started to pull the trigger. I know Oleg isn't into mind reading so the program monitoring my trigger finger before I shoot is out. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/52.gif

I, like most of you have given the AI a lot of thought. Being an Offline player kinda focuses you that way.

A very competent AI "might" best be served by some type random trigger that causes the AI to do certain things.

If you're closing on a flight of enemy AI and just as you drop on them the AI programming would set a random trigger. The random trigger would make a choice for the various aircraft in the enemy flight group. One choice might be, they AI never see it coming. Another might be, the plane you target never sees you coming, but the rest of the flight do. Another might be, they whole group evades.

Another big area is clouds. I've read hundreds of accounts: Where a damaged opponent would seek shelter inside of clouds and it worked. Where an opponent was seriously outnumbered he fly into clouds and it worked. I don't think IL2 will support this, because the clouds don't move...but then again that might be why it would work. I know the purist will say this is not viable, because the fleeing aircraft might still be visible enough in the clouds. Of course this would only be discernible to the player, which I think I could accept.

I wouldn't want to discourage 1C:Maddox from doing something because they couldn't make it perfect . I think there is room for variances from perfect.

This sim is really dead in the water without a good FMB, similar to CFS2 or Jane's WW2 FIghters. I mention them, because Oleg is very familiar with the way they program missions.

When I said dead in the water I mean the computer generated campaigns are just lame. Any intelligent user will get sick of them after spending hours on wild goose chases and otherwise be made a fool of regularly by the stupid computer.

Most Online players could care less. They're into fly, position and shoot. Immersive missions is just not that important to Online players, and I doubt if it's really possible to do a great job. Reason is, the great manually built missions completely focus around the player flight. More specifically "the player".

I'm still enjoying the Il2-FB, but I rarely build missions anymore. Good mission building is just too time consuming and tedious with the current FMB. I've got a couple hundred missions I've built over the past couple years, and some missions by others...I just fly them.

I still continue to voice my opinions about the FMB and there has "never" been a single improvement in the FMB program.

Online play is Oleg's interest. The basic improvements we continue to get are aircraft,
objects and some maps.

Oleg enjoys building the aircraft, the flight and damage models. The 1C:Maddox has good graphic design capablilites...but I often wonder about their ability to really program the sim beyond what we have now.

The offline player is pretty well ignored. Everything for the Offline player within the Il2-FB is pretty well the same, since the introduction of IL2.

Oleg has commented that he knows the life of the sim will be with the Offline player.

That's like standing on one leg when you could stand on two. You know you're going to fall at some point standing on one leg, but you do it anyway. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif

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Renegade_50
06-06-2004, 11:42 AM
Lex Luther why dont you keep your idiot comments to yourself, and nearmiss i always set mine to ace i have no clue like you what it means for accuracy and stuff but it keeps it equall i hope

Hell's Angel 50
303rd BG (H) 358th BS
"Might in Flight"