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menkara12345
03-22-2015, 09:19 PM
So, I was looking around at how the combat system in after ACIII was and I'm kinda mixed with it from what i've seen. One of the major reasons I didn't initially buy anything after ACIII was because they killed Desmond and didn't do anything with the present day story after that. However when I decided I would go ahead and get more AC games to see how the combat + assassinations evolved. I was a bit disappointed in what I saw.

Correct me if i am wrong but combat after ACIII (particularly unity it seems) have alot less kill animations than III. Also there are no more grabs and disarms? I've also heard about the fighting being "slow".

I don't mind the fact that enemies are more difficult or that counter kill chains are removed. But making combat a (in the words of another) "slow, poke fest" seems just, ugh.

I like the combat in 3 so much because it feels alot like the assassin's creed revelations trailer (see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMsbMK9Odoc at around 1:16). I would go attack an enemy and then get attacked by another, counter him then get targeted by some militia in the background, use the first enemy as a human shield then duck out of the way as a brute did his wind up attack, ect. The kill chains weren't the most fun, but rather the amount of stuff being done.

correct me if I'm wrong but from what I've seen ACU seemed to be just attacking/counter an enemy defensively to slowly whittle them down, then move the the next enemy and repeat the process.

So, if I'm going for the combat part of the games in the AC series after III, are any of the current games fast paced? Also how do you think Ubisoft should handle combat?

Alphacos007
03-22-2015, 11:35 PM
The combat only changes in Unity. AC4 and Rogue have the same combat system that AC3, except a few different animations.

D.I.D.
03-22-2015, 11:57 PM
I think they're going in the right direction with Unity. I think the game should use companion characters to get across the point of these combat changes, however, otherwise the alterations in Unity will end up being softened rather than tightened and we'll be back to square one.

I found ACIII to be better combat before, but also kind of dreary once you got the hang on it. Also, the human shield thing made idiots of the enemy snipers since you could keep grabbing more and more of the sniper's colleagues and he would obligingly murder dozens of them for you, and the sniper would never refuse to shoot once you grabbed your enemy. It's true that Unity's combat becomes easier too, but there's much more reason to avoid combat now and much more reason to run away. Winning mass battles has less potential to be exciting than does escaping from danger by the means of agility. There's also a limit to how skill-based a 3rd-person fighting system can possibly be without piling on the enemies, and I think Unity successfully offloads a lot of work into the aimed ranged weapons for its skill-based gameplay by creating situations in which jumping into hand-to-hand combat is not preferable. Both running away and ranged aiming are more appropriate to the assassin's role, I think. The player is meant to work from the shadows, and I think Unity deserves more credit for making the player think about what they can and can't do while surveying the scene. These buildings were problems to be solved.

Nonetheless, players still want to dive into hack-and-slash combat because games in general (and AC itself) have taught them to expect to do that. Some were very frustrated that they died a lot in swordplay, and some were upset about enemy snipers being good at their jobs. Bellec only trains the player in two activities: once during the prison escape (when there is no option but to fight) and then a brief stealth-kill lesson. The game badly needed a section in which a friendly NPC could warn Arno against biting off more than he could chew - someone who could teach him that it's okay to run away, or advise about peeling off an area's security like the layers on an onion. For example, any player who complained about getting killed by snipers should have been scolded by that NPC, since it was his/her fault for not ensuring the rooftops and balconies had been cleared before waltzing into a courtyard.

M3gaToxic
03-23-2015, 12:31 AM
I love AC3 for its combat, Connor is a beast (in an awesome way). Without spoiling how did the combat change in Unity? Is it good, bad, or so so? From what I have seen it looks like Arno just uses a gun, are there any swords?

D.I.D.
03-23-2015, 01:55 AM
I love AC3 for its combat, Connor is a beast (in an awesome way). Without spoiling how did the combat change in Unity? Is it good, bad, or so so? From what I have seen it looks like Arno just uses a gun, are there any swords?

I think it's much better in Unity.

To answer your questions:

Arno has guns, but you're more likely to use his quiet projectiles. Good aim is vastly more important than it's ever been. Arno has swords, and lots of them. The game has many weapons of every type except daggers, and the stats matter more now than they used to do. Two-handed weapons are a bit more interesting now, and you can wield rifle-sized guns which double as heavy melee weapons.

Enemies are much more likely to attack you simultaneously, although the feeling that enemies are waiting their turn to hit you hasn't gone away completely. You'll die more in this game than any other AC, and I loved that. You can be overwhelmed by numbers, especially indoors, so there's a lot more impetus to keep your activities quiet. It's more like AC1 in some ways: very counter-based, all about choosing your moments to strike, whether or not to use heavy hits, with an eye on the danger of leaving yourself open to being hit while you're attacking. It's less of a spectator sport than most ACs have been.

You can use stealth more in this game, but the actual cover mechanic is not very well implemented. From the demo videos, it appeared that the very effective cover system from Watch Dogs had been transplanted into Unity, but in fact this is not as good. You stick and unstick yourself from cover, but you cannot (for instance) turn a corner around a table while in cover. You can swap from cover to cover, but unlike in Watch Dogs it is not directed - you cannot target the cover you wish to which you wish to move. This can be irritating, because sometimes you'll switch cover when you didn't mean to do it, or go to the wrong place. Hopefully this will be improved in Unity to make stealth combat more exciting than frustrating.

menkara12345
03-23-2015, 02:11 AM
I think they're going in the right direction with Unity. I think the game should use companion characters to get across the point of these combat changes, however, otherwise the alterations in Unity will end up being softened rather than tightened and we'll be back to square one.

I found ACIII to be better combat before, but also kind of dreary once you got the hang on it. Also, the human shield thing made idiots of the enemy snipers since you could keep grabbing more and more of the sniper's colleagues and he would obligingly murder dozens of them for you, and the sniper would never refuse to shoot once you grabbed your enemy. It's true that Unity's combat becomes easier too, but there's much more reason to avoid combat now and much more reason to run away. Winning mass battles has less potential to be exciting than does escaping from danger by the means of agility. There's also a limit to how skill-based a 3rd-person fighting system can possibly be without piling on the enemies, and I think Unity successfully offloads a lot of work into the aimed ranged weapons for its skill-based gameplay by creating situations in which jumping into hand-to-hand combat is not preferable. Both running away and ranged aiming are more appropriate to the assassin's role, I think. The player is meant to work from the shadows, and I think Unity deserves more credit for making the player think about what they can and can't do while surveying the scene. These buildings were problems to be solved.

Nonetheless, players still want to dive into hack-and-slash combat because games in general (and AC itself) have taught them to expect to do that. Some were very frustrated that they died a lot in swordplay, and some were upset about enemy snipers being good at their jobs. Bellec only trains the player in two activities: once during the prison escape (when there is no option but to fight) and then a brief stealth-kill lesson. The game badly needed a section in which a friendly NPC could warn Arno against biting off more than he could chew - someone who could teach him that it's okay to run away, or advise about peeling off an area's security like the layers on an onion. For example, any player who complained about getting killed by snipers should have been scolded by that NPC, since it was his/her fault for not ensuring the rooftops and balconies had been cleared before waltzing into a courtyard.

well my problem isn't whether combat is easy or hard. In assassination missions from ACI->III I usually try and take the stealthy way of doing things, But alot of my fun in AC after I finish the main story, or while I am just exploring, comes from picking fights with the guards using all kinds of weapons to see the killing animations and/or running around aggroing lots of guards to make fighting all of them at once more fun since I will always have to dodge an attack from behind me or get out of the way of bullets.

If they want to discourage fighting on normal missions with snipers and elite enemies that's fine, but combat should still be fun because thats where the replay value is for alot of people.

M3gaToxic
03-23-2015, 02:55 AM
I think it's much better in Unity.

To answer your questions:

Arno has guns, but you're more likely to use his quiet projectiles. Good aim is vastly more important than it's ever been. Arno has swords, and lots of them. The game has many weapons of every type except daggers, and the stats matter more now than they used to do. Two-handed weapons are a bit more interesting now, and you can wield rifle-sized guns which double as heavy melee weapons.

Enemies are much more likely to attack you simultaneously, although the feeling that enemies are waiting their turn to hit you hasn't gone away completely. You'll die more in this game than any other AC, and I loved that. You can be overwhelmed by numbers, especially indoors, so there's a lot more impetus to keep your activities quiet. It's more like AC1 in some ways: very counter-based, all about choosing your moments to strike, whether or not to use heavy hits, with an eye on the danger of leaving yourself open to being hit while you're attacking. It's less of a spectator sport than most ACs have been.

You can use stealth more in this game, but the actual cover mechanic is not very well implemented. From the demo videos, it appeared that the very effective cover system from Watch Dogs had been transplanted into Unity, but in fact this is not as good. You stick and unstick yourself from cover, but you cannot (for instance) turn a corner around a table while in cover. You can swap from cover to cover, but unlike in Watch Dogs it is not directed - you cannot target the cover you wish to which you wish to move. This can be irritating, because sometimes you'll switch cover when you didn't mean to do it, or go to the wrong place. Hopefully this will be improved in Unity to make stealth combat more exciting than frustrating.
Thank you for that. Once I get myself PS4 that will be one of the games I am going to get.

D.I.D.
03-23-2015, 02:55 AM
well my problem isn't whether combat is easy or hard. In assassination missions from ACI->III I usually try and take the stealthy way of doing things, But alot of my fun in AC after I finish the main story, or while I am just exploring, comes from picking fights with the guards using all kinds of weapons to see the killing animations and/or running around aggroing lots of guards to make fighting all of them at once more fun since I will always have to dodge an attack from behind me or get out of the way of bullets.

If they want to discourage fighting on normal missions with snipers and elite enemies that's fine, but combat should still be fun because thats where the replay value is for alot of people.

Sure, but I don't think the answer is a return of the whirling ballet that people often ask for. Shadows Of Mordor and Arkham City were great, and they obviously owed a huge amount to ACs of the past, but that kind of combat requires chains of impressive animations and therefore the deaths of waves of enemies, and once you've got that much killing happening so quickly it negates other options. I think it leaves something really interesting on the table, as well. One of the iconic images of the AC world is the brooding assassin perched on high, looking down at the scene below and picking out his/her next action. I think it's good to see knots of difficulty and to then decide from a distance that one route is too much, while another might be do-able.

For whatever it's worth, I do find the Unity combat fun, although I recognise it could do with improvements. I want it to be something different to SoM and Batman, and I think it's getting very close to that. One of my favourite things about mass melee combat in Unity is when you find yourself dividing up short attacks. You want to just batter one guard, but realise that you need to make space for yourself first and weaken the pack so you start making little darting hits in various directions to accomplish that. You might also find yourself doing this to break a gap in the ring of guards so that you have a means of escape, although because it's an emergent thing rather than an intentional mechanic it isn't 100% useful yet. I think this is something they could work on. If there's one thing I think they should borrow from those two competitor games, it's the dual-button inputs, which could be used to expand the range of moves you can do.

The more they can do to encourage player creativity, the better. One of my favourite things when fighting lots of guards is to find a way to force them into a line and drag them towards me through movement so that I control the situation. So, perhaps more precise control of movement during fighting? I just don't want the fighting to move me (that is, the character). It's one thing to marvel at your character's gymnastics, but another to feel in control of each movement.

phoenix-force411
03-23-2015, 03:33 PM
They just need to bring the story from AC Initiates into the spotlight. You have no idea how good the off-screen plot is, because Ubisoft is just being greedy with the story at the moment.

BananaBlighter
03-23-2015, 06:54 PM
well my problem isn't whether combat is easy or hard. In assassination missions from ACI->III I usually try and take the stealthy way of doing things, But alot of my fun in AC after I finish the main story, or while I am just exploring, comes from picking fights with the guards using all kinds of weapons to see the killing animations and/or running around aggroing lots of guards to make fighting all of them at once more fun since I will always have to dodge an attack from behind me or get out of the way of bullets.

If they want to discourage fighting on normal missions with snipers and elite enemies that's fine, but combat should still be fun because thats where the replay value is for alot of people.

Yup definitely agree with you there, there needs to be something to distinguish missions from free roam, as now, unlike in AC3/4/Rogue, I don't get in to fights often and spend most of my free roaming time admiring the city and the parkour. The problem is that in Unity, Ubisoft went on about how you could choose your own playstyle, but no you're being forced to go stealthy. If they can make the combat fun and hard, that would of course be awesome. I really loved Shadow of Mordor for this, because while the combat was easy, when you had many orcs (that amount would be unrealistic in AC for guards) you still felt the possibility of dying. Another solution is to make combat progressively easier but link it to the skill tree, so that those who want to use combat rather than stealth, can spend their sync points (though I think it should be creed points, don't like so many currencies) on that instead. If you unlock more skills as you go along the story, then you would be more OP like in AC3 only by the end of it, when you'd have finished the missions and would enjoy free roam more this way. I have a lengthy thread on one of my combat ideas to add to that in Unity, to which nobody has replied to :( so I guess you can check that out, though I warn you it is pretty lengthy: http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1043372-Combat-idea-for-AC-Victory