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View Full Version : Were the British demonized slightly in AC3?



EmbodyingSeven5
03-22-2015, 04:44 PM
I don't know....... It just seems like the British were beginning to go down the Borgia route in like in AC B/ AC 2. ( Remember this does not reflect the Templars in any way.) they were the "bad guy" majority of the time and you never work for them or help them out in any way. we also never hear a loyalist speak his side sensibly throughout the game.

now please don't get defensive because I don't have a strong opinion about this myself. so feel free to point things out to me that I missed ;)

EmptyCrustacean
03-22-2015, 04:48 PM
We had to be demonised so that American gamers don't feel bad about their own history and their mass extermination of the Native Americans.

EmbodyingSeven5
03-22-2015, 04:54 PM
We had to be demonised so that American gamers don't feel bad about their own history and their mass extermination of the Native Americans.

it was just weird to see the game succeed highly in some moral grey areas and then see it fail at it in others

VestigialLlama4
03-22-2015, 05:28 PM
We had to be demonised so that American gamers don't feel bad about their own history and their mass extermination of the Native Americans.

Technically the English are equally guilty of Native American genocide since they implemented it for centuries before the Revolution. It was English soldiers on who distributed blankets coated with small pox germs to Native American tribes. During the Seven Years War, Rogers Rangers (who all remained Empire Loyalists even during the Revolution) burnt native American villages as well.

As for whether the English are demonized, the answer is no. In fact the games are fairly Anglophile with Shaun Hastings writing the Database entries with a very English bias in all the games.

In AC3, the English aren't demonized, they are merely shown as adversaries and its mostly fair. This is hardly Mel Gibson's THE PATRIOT with its quasi-Nazi Redcoats.

Likewise, they aren't demonized as much as they should be in ROGUE, where the politics of Shay supporting the Seven Years War aren't explored in depth nor are the disastrous consequences of the French defeat in the war for Native American tribes.

VestigialLlama4
03-22-2015, 05:31 PM
it was just weird to see the game succeed highly in some moral grey areas and then see it fail at it in others

I actually don't see how anyone can see the English be demonized in AC3, I mean yeah there's no token good Englishman but I don't see the game showing the English being especially nasty there.

In any case, one fact which English gamers and Anglophiles need to accept is that almost every nationalist independence and freedom struggle fought for the last two hundreds have had the English on the opposing side, so they should hardly complain about basic depiction of facts.

Markaccus
03-22-2015, 06:13 PM
British! Not just english. Stop confusing them as the same thing.

Bloody Welsh and Scots always get away with it, and as a result, they are in our case all the time too, calling us arrogant et.c.

Altair1789
03-22-2015, 06:19 PM
I'd say not at all. Both sides were portrayed pretty badly. You even find out that Charles Lee didn't burn Connor's village, but it was soldiers sent by Washington during the Seven Years War

Markaccus
03-22-2015, 06:20 PM
Spain and france always get away with things too. People world wide LOVE to hate the English. If it were any other country, we would be deafened by cries of racism! But its ok to hold currently living English responsible for things that happened in the past, and were not all our fault!

Templar_Az
03-22-2015, 06:28 PM
The British Empire in my opinion were Evil Scumbag sons of Satan but I never once when playing AC3 thought that they were being demonised.

DumbGamerTag94
03-22-2015, 07:30 PM
No way.

The only truely "Evil" British in the game are Silas Thatcher and Edward Braddock. And neither of them did their evil doing under direct sanction from the British Government. Braddocks evils aren't even shown on screen just talked about in conversation with Pitcairn.

All the other things shown that make the British/loyalists look bad actually happened. Conscription, Martial Law, distributing diseased blankets, tax collection at bayonet point, just to name a few of the ones in game I recall.

However other British like John Pitcairn are shown in a positive light. Elaborating that his expedition to Lexington and Concord was intended to confiscate rebel weapons and de-escalate the situation. Arresting the instigators before war broke out in earnest. Which is all historically factual.(Except Pitcairn was not in charge of the expedition a General Was, Pitcairn only led the lead element that was there for the "shot heard round the world".

But in a general sense the British of this time period were notoriously brutal. Even the British themselves were very divided on the Revolution with Edmond Burke and the Whigs opposing the war entirely. While the early war British tended to behave more like Pitcairn. Once the war was on and after defeats at Boston, Ticonderoga, and Montreal. The British hit back with a vengeance and most of the bad in AC3 actually happened. And most of the bad things the Patriots did the Brits were equally guilty.

As for the "Nazi like" British army of the Patriot. The main antagonist is mostly based on Banastre Tarleton who was an actual historical person and commander of the "Green Dragoons". Who was actually a cruel leader and by his own admission massacred patriot soldiers who had already surrendered as well as harassment of American civilians. About the only thing that differs the Patriot villain from his real life counterpart was that Tarleton didn't burn an entire town alive in a church and didn't die in battle. And Gibsons character is loosely based on several people mainly Col Sumpter of South Carolina. Who the infamous Fort Sumpter of Civil War fame was named after. But anyway let's remember that that movie is FICTION. BASED on actual events. Not actual historical FACT. it's just a movie for entertainment purposes.

But no AC3 does not unfairly depict or demonize the British.

Altair1789
03-22-2015, 07:37 PM
Spain and france always get away with things too. People world wide LOVE to hate the English. If it were any other country, we would be deafened by cries of racism! But its ok to hold currently living English responsible for things that happened in the past, and were not all our fault!

True, but I don't entirely agree that the English are commonly hated anymore. At least definitely not as much as certain other races/ religions

M3gaToxic
03-22-2015, 07:38 PM
I think both sides were. Like on the Patriots side Washington was the cause of Connors village. But I end up getting in trouble from both Red coats and Blue Coats.

VestigialLlama4
03-22-2015, 07:55 PM
As for the "Nazi like" British army of the Patriot. The main antagonist is mostly based on Banastre Tarleton who was an actual historical person and commander of the "Green Dragoons". Who was actually a cruel leader and by his own admission massacred patriot soldiers who had already surrendered as well as harassment of American civilians. About the only thing that differs the Patriot villain from his real life counterpart was that Tarleton didn't burn an entire town alive in a church and didn't die in battle.

The latter incident is based on the Nazi massacre of Oradour in Occupied France but transported to Revolutionary America. Hence why I said that The Patriot made them proto-Nazis with innocent Patriots. Killing surrendering American patriots is basic violation of military engagement, illegal and a war crimes but stuff like that happens in every war no matter how honorable people want it to be prosecuted.

I only cited THE PATRIOT, chiefly because it was the only major film to tackle the Revolutionary period in recent times. Which goes to show that Hollywood generally likes to avoid dealing with that period. By those low standards and actual demonization, AC3 is a documentary

D.I.D.
03-22-2015, 09:52 PM
I'm English, and voted "not really".

The history is just really poorly handled for everyone in AC3. I think that was the last game where I'd gone into it believing that the makers took history seriously, while they might take several liberties here and there for dramatic effect. I'd given them the benefit of the doubt, assuming they were working towards a time when the engine technology could handle a sophisticated take on history. AC3 was absurdly messy and failed to describe the events and the motivations of anybody in the conflict. It's hard to say what AC4 was since it was a bit of a detour, but Unity displayed a complete contempt for the history. Developer interviews revealed that the game wasn't even shown to the authoritative French historians from the Sorbonne until late in development, and their alarmed criticisms of the game's pro-Royalist position couldn't make much impact at that point (and can you imagine what that game sounded like until those tweaks were implemented?).

The visual designers and world building arms of the team are so dedicated to history, and yet the creative directors are allowed to stomp all over it. This wouldn't be a problem if the CD provides some kind of intriguing "what if?" twist on the historical convention, but it is when it's just a ham-fisted blunder through the existing record and leaves its audience misinformed. I hope that in future the CDs will be more respectful and understand why there's an interest in making a game version of each historical period: because there is a fantastic, epic-scale story already there waiting for you. Place your protagonist within that, thread their smaller story into it, and make something thought-provoking.

SirTookTookIII
03-23-2015, 03:10 AM
Technically the English are equally guilty of Native American genocide since they implemented it for centuries before the Revolution. It was English soldiers on who distributed blankets coated with small pox germs to Native American tribes. During the Seven Years War, Rogers Rangers (who all remained Empire Loyalists even during the Revolution) burnt native American villages as well.

As for whether the English are demonized, the answer is no. In fact the games are fairly Anglophile with Shaun Hastings writing the Database entries with a very English bias in all the games.

In AC3, the English aren't demonized, they are merely shown as adversaries and its mostly fair. This is hardly Mel Gibson's THE PATRIOT with its quasi-Nazi Redcoats.

Likewise, they aren't demonized as much as they should be in ROGUE, where the politics of Shay supporting the Seven Years War aren't explored in depth nor are the disastrous consequences of the French defeat in the war for Native American tribes.

The English are nowhere near the level of being guilty of the genocide. The English weren't the ones who went on to conquer what would become the rest of the country. It was Americans who committed Wounded Knee and the Trail of Tears. The US seems to have a bad education system as well, considering they don't bother to show us the awful parts of our history and just pass it off most of the time. Based off of most of my classes, we get a passing chapter most of the time.

VestigialLlama4
03-23-2015, 03:52 AM
The English are nowhere near the level of being guilty of the genocide.

The point is the English when they ran the Colonies weren't a great deal better. The Seven Years War was the beginning of the end for the Native Americans on the East Coast. As long as the French had a presence in the colonies, there was at least a balance of powers situation and the English, as is their wont, screwed over the tribes who sided with them against the French. You see this in AC3, where the two-faced William Johnson tries to sweet talk his way into forcing the Iroquois to sell them their land and they point out the Treaty of Stanwix that he had forced them to accept earlier. The sad part is that in ROGUE, they totally white-wash (pun-intended) the historical context of the Seven Years War to make it a fantastic story about stopping earthquakes but that's what you get when you take fanfiction plots into main titles.

EaglePrince25
03-23-2015, 11:05 AM
I don't think so. Neither side came out of that game looking great in the long run. And what's more, as others have stated, some of the things they're depicted doing (Like the diseased blankets) are historically accurate.

Megas_Doux
03-23-2015, 03:24 PM
Spain and france always get away with things too..........

I wholeheartedly disagree with that...Have you EVER heard of the Black Legend??????

If you see North American and/or British documentaries about expansion of the European kingdoms into Empire-or their version of History in general- it seems that ONLY Spain is to blame for everything bad that happened to the conquered populations.......

Kinda off topic......Do you know who ALWAYS gets away with everything and by a huge margin over the rest of dominant powers throughout the ages???? The Roman Empire.

VestigialLlama4
03-23-2015, 03:35 PM
I wholeheartedly disagree with that...Have you EVER heard of the Black Legend??????

One nice thing in BLACK FLAG is that the Spanish governor Laureano Torres is anti-slavery while the British governor Woodes Rogers is a shameless slavedriver and profiteer, one of the small subversive touches they put in those games, though I doubt it was driven by Hispanophile sentiment. I wonder if people will ever acknowledge the fact that fewer people were executed by the Spanish Inquisition than Queen Elizabeth.


Kinda off topic......Do you know who ALWAYS gets away with everything and by a huge margin over the rest of dominant powers throughout the ages???? The Roman Empire.

About the only time that the Romans are bad guys are in Jesus movies. But you know AC until UNITY has done a good job in that it doesn't show the Ottoman Empire to be this Harem Girl Town and shows it to be multicultural society that it was and it shows the famous Golden Age Pirates to be this resourceful disgruntled sailors commune than evil bad guys. The sad part is that UNITY was a good time to deal away with the rotten black legend of the French Revolution (which by the way was spread by the English) and they blew it.

m4r-k7
03-23-2015, 03:38 PM
British are always demonized :P

In movies to. In American movies, 90% of the time there is a British guy, he will be the evil character. I mean even Shaun (who is supposedly on the good side) is portayed as a smug ******* most of the time.

AC 3 did make the British look like heartless people most of the time. Of course they were the oppressors in the American Revolution, but there was a lot more to it than that. Back then countries conquered land, thats just the way it was.

I mean AC 3 kinda had to demonize the British because there is always a "bad" group of people in AC games that you kill.

I just hope in AC Victory that the guards arent metropolitan police.

In Ryse the British are seen to be barbarians and evil guys even though they were oppressing the Romans who were occupying Britain.

Namikaze_17
03-23-2015, 03:41 PM
No, only those kids were demonized.

Their cryptic language still haunts me today...

ze_topazio
03-23-2015, 03:50 PM
Thank god we Portuguese are always forgotten.

The Roman Empire always gets away with everything, people always say wonders of the extremly positive Romanization ignoring that the people being conquered had a very different opinion.

VestigialLlama4
03-23-2015, 03:53 PM
British are always demonized :P

No they aren't. Arab people are demonized. Chinese People too and black people and African Americans as well. English people are demonized by no one since everyone loves the Beatles, the Stones, Monty Python and Stephen Fry, Dowton Abbey (aka Empire Nostalgia 101) and the Harry Potter/Lord of the Rings books. Likewise Alan Moore and Neil Gaiman.

Few people in America's popular culture are aware of some of the truly evil things that the English did. Like everyone thinks Winston Churchill is a great hero (and he was as long as he fought Hitler) but they don't want to publicize the fact that he was the one who toppled Iran's democracy and got America involved in the Middle East or the fact that after World War II, he screwed over Greece by reinstating fascists and collaborators and ordering soldiers to fire at Resistance fighters because he thought they were "too Communist", actions which are responsible for problems in Greek society to this very day. A lot of people still accept uncritically that they spread democracy and "free trade" to the colonies, which President Roosevelt called BS to Churchill's face.


I mean even Shaun (who is supposedly on the good side) is portayed as a smug ******* most of the time.

He isn't as much as a smug s--t as Warren Vidic, that Da Costa woman and William Miles


I mean AC 3 kinda had to demonize the British because there is always a "bad" group of people in AC games that you kill.

Well in AC3 you kill both the Redcoats and the Patriots as guards.


I just hope in AC Victory that the guards arent metropolitan police.

Yeah, that will be a problem, they probably have to go super-stealth there.


In Ryse the British are seen to be barbarians and evil guys even though they were oppressing the Romans who were occupying Britain.

Well the Roman Empire are seen uncritically as examples of positive virtues even if their ideas of government were pretty bad i.e. endless wars, bread-and-circuses distraction, mass slavery. Ancient Egypt were much better (they lasted far longer than the Romans) but then they suffer from a black legend too, I mean archeologists have proven that the pyramids were built by expert labourers who were paid and skilled, but most people think it was built by slaves marching to a whip.

Megas_Doux
03-23-2015, 03:55 PM
One nice thing in BLACK FLAG is that the Spanish governor Laureano Torres is anti-slavery while the British governor Woodes Rogers is a shameless slavedriver and profiteer, one of the small subversive touches they put in those games, though I doubt it was driven by Hispanophile sentiment. I wonder if people will ever acknowledge the fact that fewer people were executed by the Spanish Inquisition than Queen Elizabeth.


That´s true, indeed. I mean, I wont ever deny all those atrocities, that´s impossible. But empires have always been, you know, EMPIRES.......British, Portuguese, French, Spanish, Roman, hey even the Inca and Aztecs.




About the only time that the Romans are bad guys are in Jesus movies. But you know AC until UNITY has done a good job in that it doesn't show the Ottoman Empire to be this Harem Girl Town and shows it to be multicultural society that it was and it shows the famous Golden Age Pirates to be this resourceful disgruntled sailors commune than evil bad guys. The sad part is that UNITY was a good time to deal away with the rotten black legend of the French Revolution (which by the way was spread by the English) and they blew it.

Romans being bad only in Jesus related movies is in fact true. Everything else is like " those barbaric, primitive, Britons, gauls and such deserved it". I agree as well about what you say about Unity´s "historic" story.