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TAGERT.
09-07-2004, 11:32 PM
When I first started looking at some of the SPEED reports posted here in this forum I noticed that a lot of people were having trouble getting a *feel* for the raw numbers. I thought to myself, a graph of those numbers would really help a lot of people *see* what the *numbers* are trying to tell them. And for the most part the graphs do just that.. But there is still a small group of people who are struggling with the graphs. It appears that they are having problems looking at a *velocity* graph and realizing how little differences in speed (velocity) will effect the distance (position) between two objects.

That combined with people not realizing that one mans trash is another mans treasure. That is to say what you *think* of as FAST when you see the word FAST may cause another person to *think* of something totally different.

For example, if you walk up to a guy who drives dragsters and tell him "My car is really FAST!" In your mind you thinking your 1972 Datsun B-210 doing 80mph down hill is pretty darn FAST! Where as the image in the mind of the dragster driver is thinking 300mph is 5 seconds is fast. It is not until you both sit down and compare notes that the drag racer will stand up laughing and walk away from you! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif But at least the two of you have now compared numbers and thus calibrated the word fast between the two of you.

So, in the hopes of helping the few people left who still don't realize how BIG an effect a LITTLE speed DIFFERENCE can effect SEPARATION over time... I present the following.

At the end of this course you should be able to look at a velocity graph and realize that even though the SPEED is NOT very different between planes the SEPARATION can be!

PICK A SPEED.. Say 650km/h

The P47 reached 650km/h in 30.50
The 190 reached 650km/h in 32.00
The 109 reached 650km/h in 36.00

NOTE: Even though the time difference between the P47 and 190 is only 1.50sec.. The SEPARATION at 32sec is 135 meters. And at 32sec the P47's velocity is now 666km/h to the 190s 650km/h.. A speed difference of 16km/h

NOTE: Even though the time difference between the P47 and 109 is only 5.50sec.. The SEPARATION at 36sec is 338 meters. And at 36sec the P47's velocity is now 708km/h to the 109s 650.00km/h.. A speed difference of 58km/h

So, it should be CLEAR that a LITTLE speed DIFFERENCE makes a BIG difference in SEPARATION

PICK A TIME.. Say 35sec

At 35.00 seconds the P47 velocity is 697.48 km/h
At 35.00 seconds the 190 velocity is 684.13 km/h
At 35.00 seconds the 109 velocity is 642.43 km/h

NOTE: Even though the velocity difference between the P47 and 190 is only 13.35km/h at 35.00sec.. The SEPARATION at 35.00sec is 148 meters.

NOTE: Even though the velocity difference between the P47 and 109 is only 55.05km/h at 35.00sec.. The SEPARATION at 35.00sec is 323 meters.

So, it should be CLEAR that a LITTLE time DIFFERENCE makes a BIG difference in SEPARATION

Class dismissed

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TAGERT

[This message was edited by TAGERT. on Tue September 07 2004 at 11:30 PM.]

TAGERT.
09-07-2004, 11:32 PM
When I first started looking at some of the SPEED reports posted here in this forum I noticed that a lot of people were having trouble getting a *feel* for the raw numbers. I thought to myself, a graph of those numbers would really help a lot of people *see* what the *numbers* are trying to tell them. And for the most part the graphs do just that.. But there is still a small group of people who are struggling with the graphs. It appears that they are having problems looking at a *velocity* graph and realizing how little differences in speed (velocity) will effect the distance (position) between two objects.

That combined with people not realizing that one mans trash is another mans treasure. That is to say what you *think* of as FAST when you see the word FAST may cause another person to *think* of something totally different.

For example, if you walk up to a guy who drives dragsters and tell him "My car is really FAST!" In your mind you thinking your 1972 Datsun B-210 doing 80mph down hill is pretty darn FAST! Where as the image in the mind of the dragster driver is thinking 300mph is 5 seconds is fast. It is not until you both sit down and compare notes that the drag racer will stand up laughing and walk away from you! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif But at least the two of you have now compared numbers and thus calibrated the word fast between the two of you.

So, in the hopes of helping the few people left who still don't realize how BIG an effect a LITTLE speed DIFFERENCE can effect SEPARATION over time... I present the following.

At the end of this course you should be able to look at a velocity graph and realize that even though the SPEED is NOT very different between planes the SEPARATION can be!

PICK A SPEED.. Say 650km/h

The P47 reached 650km/h in 30.50
The 190 reached 650km/h in 32.00
The 109 reached 650km/h in 36.00

NOTE: Even though the time difference between the P47 and 190 is only 1.50sec.. The SEPARATION at 32sec is 135 meters. And at 32sec the P47's velocity is now 666km/h to the 190s 650km/h.. A speed difference of 16km/h

NOTE: Even though the time difference between the P47 and 109 is only 5.50sec.. The SEPARATION at 36sec is 338 meters. And at 36sec the P47's velocity is now 708km/h to the 109s 650.00km/h.. A speed difference of 58km/h

So, it should be CLEAR that a LITTLE speed DIFFERENCE makes a BIG difference in SEPARATION

PICK A TIME.. Say 35sec

At 35.00 seconds the P47 velocity is 697.48 km/h
At 35.00 seconds the 190 velocity is 684.13 km/h
At 35.00 seconds the 109 velocity is 642.43 km/h

NOTE: Even though the velocity difference between the P47 and 190 is only 13.35km/h at 35.00sec.. The SEPARATION at 35.00sec is 148 meters.

NOTE: Even though the velocity difference between the P47 and 109 is only 55.05km/h at 35.00sec.. The SEPARATION at 35.00sec is 323 meters.

So, it should be CLEAR that a LITTLE time DIFFERENCE makes a BIG difference in SEPARATION

Class dismissed

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TAGERT

[This message was edited by TAGERT. on Tue September 07 2004 at 11:30 PM.]

BBB_Hyperion
09-08-2004, 12:04 AM
double post thx ubi forum

BBB_Hyperion
09-08-2004, 12:09 AM
Good Post http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Maybe we need some more of these focused on Energie fighting .

A complete archive for all to look up ?.

High Ground is not only more agreeable and salubrious, but more convenient from a military point of view; low ground is not only damp and unhealthy, but also disadvantageous for fighting.

Sun Tzu : The Art of War

Regards,
Hyperion

TAGERT.
09-08-2004, 12:52 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
Awsum grafs Tag.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Thank You! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
Rather slim differences--BUT--all three fighters here are supposed to be "well diving" aircraft overall.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Well we have all heard about the P47.. I seem to recall the Fw190 being said to dive well too.. As for the 109.. Not so much.. Most books I have paint a not so bright picture for the early 109s. But without data it is hard to tell really. I know alot of the high speed dive tests done by Lukas Schmid were done in an early 109F (Werk Nummer 9228) which had veen fitted with the wnig assembly of the Me109G... But it sounded like a real E ticker ride! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
Need dive grafs for Yak~3 vs Fw~190A9 or other reportedely poor-diving "light" vs well-diving "heavy" fighters.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Yes.. One of these days I would like to do them all.. But that would take some time! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
That is what they are Whining about.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Well hard to tell what *they* are whining about sometimes.. They pick two very simular planes and expect big differences.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
May not be advisable to extrapolate your grafs to La~7 vs P~47D27 or Spit vs P~47D27. Need to conduct these tests too.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Moksha did some nice tests of the Spit

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=63110913&m=394001117

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TAGERT

TAGERT.
09-08-2004, 12:55 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BBB_Hyperion:
Good Post http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Thanks!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BBB_Hyperion:
Maybe we need some more of these focused on Energie fighting .<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Looking into that.. There is a variable in DeviceLink that is supose to provide energy.. But.. depends who you talk to.. It is not listed in the DeviceLink text.. But seems to be extracted from the overload variable.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BBB_Hyperion:
A complete archive for all to look up ?.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Would be nice! Too bad Oleg and the team didnt have the time to include something like this in the game.. pick an alt, pick an angle, run the FM and plot the line

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TAGERT

269GA-Maxmars
09-08-2004, 02:37 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TAGERT.:
Too bad Oleg and the team didnt have the time to include something like this in the game.. pick an alt, pick an angle, run the FM and plot the line
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sadly this is where a newbie collapses.. Lots and lots of planes with many perks and flaws that could be exploites, but no reference on these perks.

This means that only very dedicated players can be competitive, and frustration upon those that go online to check their "ace status" they earned in single player.

BBB_Hyperion
09-08-2004, 02:55 AM
Energie at simpliest could be 1/2mv^2 + mgh .

Where v is for true airspeed so conversion is needed.

Engine Energy calculation might be a little more complex http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

High Ground is not only more agreeable and salubrious, but more convenient from a military point of view; low ground is not only damp and unhealthy, but also disadvantageous for fighting.

Sun Tzu : The Art of War

Regards,
Hyperion

Diablo310th
09-08-2004, 06:26 AM
Tagert.....excellent work. I think now all this talk about all planes diving at teh same speed and I can't outrun a 109 in my Jug is debunked. I know I have noticed that if I put my Jug into a shallow dive (0-1g's) I can outrun a 109 easily in a dive. Most people are diving at to steep an angle to realize this great advantage in teh Jug. It took alot of reading tests done by good people like you to realize this and to start applying it. Thank you for all your hard work. I assume you used DeviceLink to get your data with. Now if we could jsut get UDPSpeed and UDPgraph to work online it would be great.

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TAGERT.
09-08-2004, 08:51 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Diablo310th:
Tagert.....excellent work. I think now all this talk about all planes diving at teh same speed and I can't outrun a 109 in my Jug is debunked. I know I have noticed that if I put my Jug into a shallow dive (0-1g's) I can outrun a 109 easily in a dive. Most people are diving at to steep an angle to realize this great advantage in teh Jug. It took alot of reading tests done by good people like you to realize this and to start applying it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Thanks!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Diablo310th:
Thank you for all your hard work. I assume you used DeviceLink to get your data with. Now if we could jsut get UDPSpeed and UDPgraph to work online it would be great.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Actually it is not UDPSpeed or UDPGraphs problem.. DeviceLink purposly disable some of those outputs online.. BUT.. If you save a track while online, you can play the track back after and all the information will be displayed

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TAGERT

TAGERT.
09-08-2004, 08:53 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BBB_Hyperion:
Energie at simpliest could be 1/2mv^2 + mgh .

Where v is for true airspeed so conversion is needed.
Engine Energy calculation might be a little more complex http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>1/2mv^2 + mgh That would cover the kinetic.. Alt would cover the potential.. Hmmmm maybe we could calc it?

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TAGERT

WWMaxGunz
09-08-2004, 10:09 AM
Information update:

DeviceLink works online but must be set by server. What it will do to server load
can vary wildly since polling may be very often by players wanting smooth guages.

From the UDPSpeed team:

Energy computed on program (UDPSpeed) and emulated virtual data indexes (not DeviceLink)
EKinID = 490;
EPotID = 491;
ESumID = 492;
DeltaAzimuth1ID = 493;
DeltaAximuth2ID = 494;

Also if for dataindex add value 500 then returned value will be speed of change
parameter... For Speed changes is acceleration, for altitude this is climb. For
others is is its simple derivative.

Neal

Diablo310th
09-08-2004, 10:15 AM
From the UDPSpeed team:

Energy computed on program (UDPSpeed) and emulated virtual data indexes (not DeviceLink)
EKinID = 490;
EPotID = 491;
ESumID = 492;
DeltaAzimuth1ID = 493;
DeltaAximuth2ID = 494;

Also if for dataindex add value 500 then returned value will be speed of change
parameter... For Speed changes is acceleration, for altitude this is climb. For
others is is its simple derivative.

Neal...can you explain this and what it means?

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WWMaxGunz
09-08-2004, 10:53 AM
IMO these are custom data from UDPSpeed program and the index numbers to use that act the
same way as DeviceLink indexes/code numbers.

EKinID -- seems to be Energy Kinetic and ID may mean the units or scale is their own, I dunno.
EPotID -- Energy Potential as in Potential Energy
ESumID -- add the two types of energy

I have no clue yet as to what the 2 types of Azimuth are. Delta is common for change in/of.

Adding 500 to any index gets the change in that I assume only good for flight data.
So you can see how fast speed is changing (acceleration), etc. Simple derivative is a math
term for the same thing, it is the name for the method to find instantaneous change in rate.
Picture the tangent to a graph curve at any point, the slope of that is the first derivative.
That may be more than you wanted, but it's good info.

Neal

BBB_Hyperion
09-08-2004, 12:00 PM
Well it uses Kinetic Energie with IAS Speed then ?

Does it make sense if so ?

High Ground is not only more agreeable and salubrious, but more convenient from a military point of view; low ground is not only damp and unhealthy, but also disadvantageous for fighting.

Sun Tzu : The Art of War

Regards,
Hyperion

LEXX_Luthor
09-08-2004, 04:03 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Need dive grafs for Yak~3 vs Fw~190A9 or other reportedely poor-diving "light" vs well-diving "heavy" fighters.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>TAGERT:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Yes.. One of these days I would like to do them all.. But that would take some time! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/52.gif Just doing Yak~3 with Fw~190 will take less time than you have taken so far.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor::<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>That is what they are Whining about.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>TAGERT:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Well hard to tell what *they* are whining about sometimes.. They pick two very simular planes and expect big differences.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
No, they most often Whine about La~7 or Yak~3 diving with Fw~190. Just doing one of Yak~3 with Fw~190 may either clearly confirm or brutally refute your idea here. If you really want to show impressive seperation grafs, and assuming your idea is correct [and your 109G test may show a trend in plane type indicating you are correct http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif ], then do Yak~3 vs Fw~190 now before further discussion.

Thanks, and yes, Awsum grafs indeed!

-----

1/2mv^2 covers translational kinetic energy

mgh covers gravitational potential energy (h is "height" and is related to Alt)

__________________
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif Flyable Swedish "Gladiator" listed as J8A ...in Aces Expansion Pack ( AEP )

"You will still have FB , you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
:
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

[This message was edited by LEXX_Luthor on Wed September 08 2004 at 03:13 PM.]

TAGERT.
09-08-2004, 05:15 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/52.gif Just doing Yak~3 with Fw~190 will take less time than you have taken so far.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>True.. and taking my gf out to dinner and a movie will take less time too! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
No, they most often Whine about La~7 or Yak~3 diving with Fw~190.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>No? Well you and I must be talking to or about different people than.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
Just doing one of Yak~3 with Fw~190 may either clearly confirm or brutally refute your idea here. If you really want to show impressive seperation grafs, and assuming your idea is correct [and your 109G test may show a trend in plane type indicating you are correct http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>My idea? I don't actually have an *idea* nor do I have a *theory*. All I have done is PROVE that the "ALL PLANES IN IL2 DIVE THE SAME" is a FALSE statement.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
then do Yak~3 vs Fw~190 now before further discussion.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
If your that interested in the Yak vs 190 go for it! If you need help with UDPSpeed I'm more than willing to help, if you need EXCEL help I'm more than willing to help, if you need a place to post your results I'm more than willing to help.. What I'm not willing to do is every tests that every guys asks for on a whim! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
Thanks, and yes, Awsum grafs indeed__!__<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Thanks! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

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TAGERT

LEXX_Luthor
09-08-2004, 07:32 PM
So just confining test to the commonly believed better diving planes?

Okay http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

If your idea is correct a Yak~3 vs Fw~190 seperation graf would be most impressive.

__________________
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif Flyable Swedish "Gladiator" listed as J8A ...in Aces Expansion Pack ( AEP )

"You will still have FB , you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
:
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

TAGERT.
09-08-2004, 09:32 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
So just confining test to the commonly believed better diving planes?

Okay http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>No I am not confining you to anything! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
If your idea is correct <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Im sorry, you seem to have me confused with someone else?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
a Yak~3 vs Fw~190 seperation graf would be most impressive.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Got Track?

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TAGERT

LEXX_Luthor
09-08-2004, 09:36 PM
If you are correct a Yak~3 vs Fw~190 seperation graf would be most impressive.

__________________
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif Flyable Swedish "Gladiator" listed as J8A ...in Aces Expansion Pack ( AEP )

"You will still have FB , you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
:
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

WWMaxGunz
09-08-2004, 11:12 PM
I am finding that the higher level speed planes are all doing well in fast, full
power dives.

The difference in weight is that heavy, low T/W planes that normally don't do well
pulling out level or really slug it on climbs can shine along with the rest once
the dive gets under way.

Somehow, I am not surpised.

Time to look at vertical zooms.

Neal

TAGERT.
09-08-2004, 11:51 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
If you are correct<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>No if about it.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
a Yak~3 vs Fw~190 seperation graf would be most impressive.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Enh! In what way? What do you consider to be impressive? You can take a look at JaBo_HH's orginal tests.. They were a little off in the starting alts and speeds and pitch.. But I dont see anything about them that I would call impressive. Here is a link

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=63110913&m=485007007

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TAGERT

WOLFMondo
09-09-2004, 12:52 AM
That makes allot of sense. Some closure here finally on this dive speed subject I hope.

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LEXX_Luthor
09-09-2004, 08:46 PM
If you are correct a Yak~3 vs Fw~190 seperation graf would be most impressive.

__________________
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif Flyable Swedish "Gladiator" listed as J8A ...in Aces Expansion Pack ( AEP )

"You will still have FB , you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
:
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

k5054
09-10-2004, 03:19 AM
Slight change of subject, but I didn't want to open a new topic. Posted today on j-aircraft.com is a new (to me) flight test of a Zero captured in China. It has many interesting points which aren't relevant here, but there is some acceleration info in a more detailed form than we've seen before.....

7:- - RELATIVE PERFORMANCE WITH P-40K AND P-43A-1 AIRCRAFT

a. Climb - The Zero airplane maintains a higher rate of climb than the P-40K-1 at all altitudes in excess of 10000 feet. However, it is believed that below 5000 feet, the P-40K-1 would climb faster. The P-43 A-1 will maintain a higher rate of climb than the Zero at any altitude above 12,500 feet. In climb tests with this airplane, the P-43 was operated at 2500 r.p.m. and 42" Hg., and with this output did not achieve the advantage in climb until 12,500 feet was reached. However, with maximum allowable output of the P-43 engine (2700 r.p.m. and 48.5 in. Hg.) it is believed this airplane would outclimb the Zero at any altitude. The P-43 was not operated at maximum engine performance on account of the extreme importance of conservation of equipment in this theatre.

b. High Speed and Acceleration - Both the P-40K-1 and the P-43A-1 are considerably faster than the Zero at any altitude. Acceleration tests were run at 13000 feet indicated with the following results:

(1) P-40K-1 versus Zero. Airplanes were flown side by side at 200 m.p.h. indicated. On signal, both engines were given full throttle and full r.p.m. For seven seconds the two planes accelerated equally, at which time the P-40 began to pull away very rapidly. Twelve seconds after acceleration signal was given, the differential speed was estimated at ten m.p.h.

(2) P-43 A-1 vs. Zero. The same test was performed as with the P-40K-1, but at an initial speed of 190 m.p.h. indicated. After signal was given, Zero gained about one quarter plane length on the P-43, after which P-43 pulled away, but not as rapidly as the P-40. Again the P-43 was operated at 42 in.Hg. and 2500 r.p.m. - as compared to 3000 r.p.m. and 41 in. Hg. with the P-40.

c. Individual Combat. - Several dog fights were carried out with both the P-40K-1 and P-43A-1, using various tactics. The Zero is, of course, vastly superior in maneuverability. It was found that the P-40 can, however, effectively fight the Zero without necessarily diving away. This is accomplished by proceeding away from the Zero on initial pass at high speed until approximately one and a half miles away, at which time a maximum turn is begun back into the path of the pursuing Zero. This turn can be completed just in time for the P-40 to pass thru the path of the Zero and barely miss a collision. If the Zero does not dodge from his own attack, the P-40 can fire a very effective head on burst in this manner. Of course, the Zero can take evasive action, but he cannot maneuver into such a position as to get effective fire into the P-40 without also getting return fire.
With the P-43, the same tactics can be used, but head on runs are not advisable with this airplane due to lack of both fire-power and protection. It is believed that the best tactics for engaging the Zero in individual combat with the P-43 is to climb away from the Zero and attempt to gain an advantageous position for a diving attack. The P-43 has a slight advantage in rate of climb, as before mentioned, and has a considerably higher best climbing speed.
It is advised never to engage in a turning fight with the Zero with either a P-40 or P-43 type airplane - but the above tactics may be effectively used provided the combat involves only two single airplanes.

8:- FLYING CHARACTERISTICS

a. Maneuverability - The Zero is very maneuverable. It will turn a little shorter than our own P-36A, but is slightly slower than this airplane and has a lower rate of climb. At altitudes below 12000 feet, the P-36A has a much better rate of climb and is almost as maneuverable.

b. Dives - The highest speed attained in diving was 300 m.p.h. indicated. Above 200 m.p.h., the Zero became increasingly hard to maneuver, and at 300 m.p.h. requires a great deal of force on the controls for even a gentle turn. At these speeds, the airplane is very stable, and especially so about the longitudinal axis. It has no tendency whatever to roll in a dive, and at 300 m.p.h. it is practically impossible to make it roll. Above 226 m.p.h. indicated the P-40 will out maneuver the Zero - thus a Zero airplane pursuing one of our own airplanes in a dive is completely at the mercy of any following P-40's or similar pursuit aircraft. This probably explains why they rarely if ever follow our own aircraft in even a shallow dive where they could keep up for a short while.

c. Stalls - The Zero stalls very smoothly, even in tight turns. It has no tendency to whip on stalling, nor does it have any â"squashingâ" tendencies like the P-26. At speeds above about 200 m.p.h. indicated, it is believed impossible to exert enough pressure on the elevators to cause the airplane to stall. This was not actually tried, however, for fear of a structural failure.

d. Landing - The airplane glides at 85 m.p.h. with flaps down and lands at about 65. It is very easy to land and has no ground looping tendencies whatever. The tail wheel is non-steerable and non-lockable.

e. Generally, the Zero is a very simple and easy airplane to operate. It has a high power loading and is consequently easy to get out of â"tight spotsâ" or difficult situations. It is structurally very weak, however, and must be handled with respect. It would be very foolish to attempt a forced landing with the Zero in any but very smooth terrain.

end quote.

k5054's observations..
I bet most of you don't know what a P-43 is or if you did, don't know it was important in China. For those who don't, it's a pre-p-47 Republic with a turbo'd twin wasp R1830, goodish at high alt, no so much low. Like a baby Jug.

The acceleration stuff is in body length, not very much. This is the kind of separation the calculations show, and on the level would be echoed in AEP, probably.

Go to j-aircraft message boards to find this report in its entirety.

(It's clear the Zero they used was undermodelled, it couldn't pull full rpm, so the results are maybe not representative of a best case A6M).

TAGERT.
09-10-2004, 09:27 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
If you are correct a Yak~3 vs Fw~190 seperation graf would be most impressive.
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TAGERT