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M3gaToxic
03-16-2015, 05:52 AM
Don't get me wrong playing as a male is cool and all but seriously I would really love for a full AC game with a female protagonist (I know there is liberation but that is not as long as current AC games). I really don't think it would take away from the core of AC at all (I mean the story seems to be all over the place now). I really hope Ubisoft either reads their forums or understands that some people want a female protagonist. I cannot be the only one here. I know many people play video games and like when it is a male character because they can put themselves in the shoes of that character and when it is a female they are lost. I mean it is not like they cant make a Female protagonist AC since they did it with Liberation, just make it as long as AC3 or the others. (AC4 seems to be the longest that I know of). Anyway how do you all feel about this? Do you want to see more female protagonists in AC games? Also please try and be respectful, there is no need for sexism or name calling because a person would rather play as a female then a male.

playlisting
03-16-2015, 06:43 AM
Do you want to see more female protagonists in AC games?

To be honest I don't really mind. Men will always be the dominant gender for protagonists in games. Simply because there are way more males playing than females and they have to cater to the majority. As long as the character is interesting and well written I'm sure I along side many others would enjoy it.

SixKeys
03-16-2015, 08:30 AM
To be honest I don't really mind. Men will always be the dominant gender for protagonists in games. Simply because there are way more males playing than females and they have to cater to the majority. As long as the character is interesting and well written I'm sure I along side many others would enjoy it.

That's just plain false.

52% of gamers are women (http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/18/52-percent-people-playing-games-women-industry-doesnt-know)

pirate1802
03-16-2015, 08:44 AM
Nooo get off to tumblr u femenazi troll why u wanna push your SJW **** in our games? Whatever happened to games that are actually fun and not pushing femenazi/lgbt/black propoganda?Everyone seems to ahve a weird fetish with these, seriously give me a break. smh

Namikaze_17
03-16-2015, 08:47 AM
All this talk about female protagonists, yet Aveline is hardly existent in this fandom.

Funny how that works... :/

---

And for the record, I don't care either way as long as the character is good.

Gender, race, etc is irrelevant.


EDIT: Naruto, get off this forum. It's getting late young man. :rolleyes:

SixKeys
03-16-2015, 09:09 AM
All this talk about female protagonists, yet Aveline is hardly existent in this fandom.

Funny how that works... :/


Aveline's game wasn't very good and she started off on handhelds. It's like wondering why Shao Jun isn't more popular because she only appeared in one 20-minute animated short.

Sorrosyss
03-16-2015, 09:24 AM
In Galina, we trust.

EmptyCrustacean
03-16-2015, 11:35 AM
*prepare yourself for the butthurt white males who get scared when the issue of diversity is mentioned because they want to remain the dominating group and so start using words like "shoehorn", 'femanazi' and 'realism' to discourage minority groups from speaking out.


I know many people play video games and like when it is a male character because they can put themselves in the shoes of that character and when it is a female they are lost.

That unfortunately is the hurdle most game developers have to get over. A lot - not all but A LOT - of white male gamers want their little power fantasies and can suspend reality for a lot of stuff but playing as a woman or POC will break that illusion. In their power fantasies women only exist as sex objects and black people in submissive or servant roles.

Norrin_Radd_1966
03-16-2015, 12:40 PM
Let's stop selling gamers short. If the game is good (Tomb Raiders say hello), most will play it. BUT, the story has to be good as well as the gameplay.

Templar_Az
03-16-2015, 02:12 PM
I don't really mind a female protagonist but I think a female Assistant Assassin would be cooler.

Alphacos007
03-16-2015, 02:14 PM
Who cares if the protagonist is a man, a woman, white, black or asian? The important thing is that he/she is a good character. Let the writers make their own stories for their games. You don't go at some movie director or book writer and say that their movies/books need more women as protagonists, so why would you do it with a game writer? If you don't like stories with while male protagonists, simply don't watch/read/play them, no one is forcing you to do so.

PS: Before you start calling me misogynist, I'm not a white male.

Templar_Az
03-16-2015, 02:18 PM
Who cares if the protagonist is a man, a woman, white, black or asian? The important thing is that he is a good character.

Well, we all know what gender you secretly want.

Alphacos007
03-16-2015, 02:20 PM
Hehe, I'm sorry, that was just a writing error really. In my mother language the word "Character" is masculine, even if the character is a woman, so I wrote that without actually thinking about it, thanks for the heads up, fixed it.

Shahkulu101
03-16-2015, 02:23 PM
That's just plain false.

52% of gamers are women (http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/18/52-percent-people-playing-games-women-industry-doesnt-know)

Sorry but you can't really claim mobile games and core games are the same thing. They appeal to different markets, and if the majority of core gamers are male it would make sense it would make sense that most games are catered to them.

However, core gamers facts from GDC Show that 42% of core gamers are women, so more AAA console/PC games should definitely have women protagonists. I don't disagree with that and I am pro-diversity. The article is just misleading in the sense that it claims mobile games and core games don't need to be treated as separate things. It also defends Kim Kardashian's game, which is a shameless micro-transaction laden cash grab, but apparently it's only being criticized by ignorant male culture.

RE OP: Yes, I would like to see more female protagonists. A women's perspective can make the game more interesting and unique in the same way that Adewale's background as a slave enhanced the story.

SpiritOfNevaeh
03-16-2015, 03:05 PM
Another female argument, huh? :rolleyes:

All I will say is that it shouldnt matter whether the protagonist is a male or female..

All that SHOULD matter is the story delivery and the gameplay elements. PERIOD.

IMO anyway.



But I do agree they can change up the genders once in a while, but it's not mandatory as long as the story/gameplay/etc is not sacrificed.

ze_topazio
03-16-2015, 03:41 PM
Before you start calling me misogynist, I'm not a white male.

Are you suggesting that only white males can be evil? that's racist and misandrist. :cool:





I guess I can support the Japanese male gamers view on this topic, if we're going to spend several hours looking at the arse of a character, might as well be a female arse. :p

SixKeys
03-16-2015, 03:59 PM
Sorry but you can't really claim mobile games and core games are the same thing. They appeal to different markets, and if the majority of core gamers are male it would make sense it would make sense that most games are catered to them.

What is a "core game", exactly? The word "core" implies it's somehow at the heart of gaming. What makes a game 'more' game-y than another game? What makes Call of Duty more of a game than Angry Birds or Words With Friends? Before you answer that, keep in mind that the games that started the entire video game industry were games like Pong, Pac-Man, Tetris and Asteroids - games that would nowadays be more likely to release on mobile plaforms.

I don't give a rat's arse about Kim Kardashian, but why is it wrong to defend her game as a shameless microtransaction-laden cash grab, but not Assassin's Creed Unity?




I guess I can support the Japanese male gamers view on this topic, if we're going to spend several hours looking at the arse of a character, might as well be a female arse. http://static5.cdn.ubi.com/u/ubiforums/20130918.419/images/smilies/tongue.png

Why would I, as a female gamer, want to spend more time looking at a female arse than a male arse?

Fatal-Feit
03-16-2015, 04:00 PM
No, the franchise does not NEED more female protagonists. It's not going to lose anything if the next few main installment are w/ male protagonists. That said, I'm not against a female lead or anything.

JustPlainQuirky
03-16-2015, 04:41 PM
Who cares if the protagonist is a man, a woman, white, black or asian? The important thing is that he/she is a good character. Let the writers make their own stories for their games. You don't go at some movie director or book writer and say that their movies/books need more women as protagonists, so why would you do it with a game writer? If you don't like stories with while male protagonists, simply don't watch/read/play them, no one is forcing you to do so.



All I will say is that it shouldnt matter whether the protagonist is a male or female..

All that SHOULD matter is the story delivery and the gameplay elements. PERIOD.



No, the franchise does not NEED more female protagonists. It's not going to lose anything if the next few main installment are w/ male protagonists. That said, I'm not against a female lead or anything.

this x1000

the gender of a character 99% of the time does not affect story/gameplay/presentation therefore does not matter. So it does not NEED anything.

That being said I am open to either as long as it's the DEVELOPER's choice and not pressure from public for their own 'progressive' interests.

ze_topazio
03-16-2015, 04:58 PM
Why would I, as a female gamer, want to spend more time looking at a female arse than a male arse?

That's why I said "male gamers" and I was not being particularly serious.

JustPlainQuirky
03-16-2015, 05:03 PM
i stare at protag arse' equally o/

https://vgboxart.com/resources/render/4465_remember-me-prev.png
https://warosu.org/data/fa/img/0079/87/1395611743089.jpg

:cool::cool::cool:

hotties, all of them

RADAR__4077
03-16-2015, 05:20 PM
this x1000

the gender of a character 99% of the time does not affect story/gameplay/presentation therefore does not matter. So it does not NEED anything.

That being said I am open to either as long as it's the DEVELOPER's choice and not pressure from public for their own 'progressive' interests.

Agreed.

I just want a good quality game.

I don't give a flying **** as long as the writers are just having fun and making a good story. I would play a game as a black woman with a good story long before unity.

I am a white male.

I just don't like it when the motivation for a character is obviously "look at me I made a game with DIVERSE characters! I'm so politically correct!"

That's my two cents. I don't want to get to heavily involved in this debate, as it is a very sensitive subject for some people.

SixKeys
03-16-2015, 05:31 PM
this x1000

the gender of a character 99% of the time does not affect story/gameplay/presentation therefore does not matter. So it does not NEED anything.

That being said I am open to either as long as it's the DEVELOPER's choice and not pressure from public for their own 'progressive' interests.

Aveline's story was very much gender-driven. It could not have been told from the perspective of a man living in those times, since men were treated entirely differently. Playing Liberation is a very different experience from all the male-driven ACs. It forces you to make use of the disguise system and consider its implications. Some people said the disguise system was annoying because it was limiting. Well yeah, that's kinda the whole point. Aveline's life was limited because she was a woman, and no matter which class she tried to fit in, all of them had their own limitations. Even as a high-society lady certain behavior was expected of her, and as an assassin she could not walk the streets freely without being instantly harassed. It's a great way to teach gamers what it's like to be limited by such a basic thing as your gender. Such a story could simply not be told from a male perspective.

Your latter argument is problematic because no matter what the developers do at this point, they will be accused of succumbing to the "feminist agenda". Even if they themselves choose to make a female character 100% of their own free will and not due to any kind of outside pressure, gamers simply won't believe them. Hell, Tomb Raider was accused of succumbing to the feminist agenda when the new game decided to focus more on her personality and less on boob physics.

JustPlainQuirky
03-16-2015, 05:35 PM
hence why i said 99% and not 100%

there are exceptions in setting of oppresion when biological discrimination is an important theme, but aside from that, it doesnt have relevance.


Your latter argument is problematic because no matter what the developers do at this point, they will be accused of succumbing to the "feminist agenda". Even if they themselves choose to make a female character 100% of their own free will and not due to any kind of outside pressure, gamers simply won't believe them.

doubt it

Remember Me, Transistor, portal etc werent accused of feminist agenda. and they certainly arent viewed as such even now

there will always be idiots who complain, but that doesnt bring down an entire creative team

as long as creators get to exercise their creative rights, it doesnt matter who believes what anyway

SixKeys
03-16-2015, 05:46 PM
hence why i said 99% and not 100%

there are exceptions in setting of oppresion when biological discrimination is an important theme, but aside from that, it doesnt have relevance.



doubt it

Remember Me, Transistor, portal etc werent accused of feminist agenda. and they certainly arent viewed as such even now

there will always be idiots who complain, but that doesnt bring down an entire creative team

as long as creators get to exercise their creative rights, it doesnt matter who believes what anyway

In Portal the person's gender literally doesn't matter. It doesn't come into play at any point in the story, and there's no reason why it should. Whereas in AC, we have been consistently getting history from a decidedly male point of view. Whether we're romancing Caterina Sforza or Lucrezia Borgia, whether we're paying courtesans to help us (and listen to them make sexual remarks about the hero), whether we have unlimited access to areas where a woman might not (like in synagogues or political gatherings) etc. AC is about history, but thus far we have been getting a very narrow view of history. I appreciate Freedom Cry for the same reason I appreciate Liberation. Both games feature gameplay which feels in a way limiting, repetitive or annoying, but that's because that's exactly how life was for women and slaves in those days. Adewale could not walk the streets with the same careless swagger as Edward, he had to constantly be on the lookout for slave traders. He would constantly be saving slaves from injustice, but not five minutes later, he would come across a very similar situation. There's only so many times you can help someone until you realize you can't save everybody. It creates a mixture of guilt and frustration in the player - why can't these slaves just stay rescued? I already did this mission, I saved some people, why don't I feel triumphant? Why does it keep happening over and over again? Because that's how it must have felt for black people. No matter what they did, it seemed like it was never enough. AC should be about history, but most of the games have been about history as told by white, heterosexual men - the easiest default setting.

JustPlainQuirky
03-16-2015, 05:51 PM
you're saying women in historical periods were oppressed therefore had diff POVs then the men, which is true.

But if the developer wants to showcase a POV from someone who happens to be a man, that is his/her choice. He/she wants to tell that specific story.

And while men generally had more privileges than women, they still are human beings who have just as much potential for good unique storytelling

Not saying devs shouldn't include women POV during historical oppression (even tho did before technically), but that its up to the developer what kind of story they want to tell

SixKeys
03-16-2015, 05:59 PM
you're saying women in historical periods were oppressed therefore had diff POVs then the men, which is true.

But if the developer wants to showcase a POV from someone who happens to be a man, that is his/her choice. He/she wants to tell that specific story.

And while men generally had more privileges than women, they still are human beings who have just as much potential for good unique storytelling

Not saying devs shouldn't include women POV during historical oppression (even tho did before technically), but that its up to the developer what kind of story they want to tell

Problem is, gamers tend to assume no developer ever chooses to tell a story from a female perspective unless they're being pressured into it. We already know Victory's protag will be male, but let's say the game after that featured a woman as a protag, there would be an instant cry of "feminazi propaganda!!!1". People still give Bioware a hard time simply for including exclusively homosexual characters in their line-up. "Why can't I romance anyone I want? This is such BS! Why can't this lesbian character turn straight for my straight male Inquisitor?"

Shahkulu101
03-16-2015, 06:06 PM
What is a "core game", exactly? The word "core" implies it's somehow at the heart of gaming. What makes a game 'more' game-y than another game? What makes Call of Duty more of a game than Angry Birds or Words With Friends? Before you answer that, keep in mind that the games that started the entire video game industry were games like Pong, Pac-Man, Tetris and Asteroids - games that would nowadays be more likely to release on mobile plaforms.

I don't give a rat's arse about Kim Kardashian, but why is it wrong to defend her game as a shameless microtransaction-laden cash grab, but not Assassin's Creed Unity?

I'm not saying core games are any more 'real' or more prestigious than any other game, just that mobile and console games are vastly different and shouldn't be treated the same. Why would anyone think otherwise? Both cater to different markets, so if more mobile games are played by females it would make sense if most mobile games were catered to them and vice versa. It makes no logical sense to claim Candy Crush and Call of Duty are under the same umbrella. That's like saying Family Guy and Breaking Bad are the same thing just because they're television.

The difference between mobile games with microtransactions and console games is that mobile games FORCE you to cough up if you want to progress or make you wait so long you have to pay up anyway. Right now there aren't any console games that do that, but Unity actually comes close with some of its practices and that's worrying. It's the unethical practices that people have a problem with, not the fact the games pink and girly.

JustPlainQuirky
03-16-2015, 06:09 PM
@sixkeys

I think you're generalizing gamers too much as a whole.

yeah there's those idiots.

but then there's people like you and me who know thats bull

and those raging idiots arent going to affect the development of the next bioware game i doubt

its a transitioning period.

and besides, surprisingly lots of people are already growing out of it

for example, when starwars recently introduced a lesbian character the reaction wasn't "oh my god stupid people forcing progressive stuff" the reaction was "you guys didnt have to announce it. a sexuality isnt something that should be deemed noteworthy. just include it without saying anything otherwise you're glorifying and preventing true equal progression"

and this opinion was found in mass in an IGN comments section

people arent as stupid anymore IMO. and those that still are, are slowly growing out of it

ofc there will always be idiots

times are just changing

essbeebee
03-16-2015, 06:26 PM
Well, I will put in my two penn'orth. I have lived some 50 years as a woman and get to be a woman every day of my life. Gaming is about being what you are not, speaking for myself, which is all anyone can do of course, and I have no interest whatsoever in playing as a female character. My enjoyment in the Tomb Raider series was much more based on being able to perform physical feats which, in real life, are beyond me - the same can be said for the Assassins Creed series; I would love to be able to freerun and handle weapons so well :p

It's a game, that's all. Gender, sexuality, race, creed; all are subservient to the gameplay and the plotting. If they don't work, I will not be playing it.

M3gaToxic
03-16-2015, 06:33 PM
Interesting views everyone. Yes I as well want an Assassin's Creed game with great quality but in all honestly I would like to play as a female in one (besides Liberation which was too short). I like playing as strong (willed and physical) female characters. There just isn't enough of them. The new Tomb raider is great, and Remember Me was amazing as well. We already know there are females in the Assassin brotherhood and well Templar order (depending on if they do another AC rouge style) so I believe there would be no issue making an AC game with a female protagonist and having a great story. It is kind of sad when the only way you get a female character in games is if you create one in an RPG that allows gender creation. Yes there are games with Female protagonist but they are so few.

Hans684
03-16-2015, 06:38 PM
Here we go again. Who cares what the protagonist is? It's their character and story that gives weight, not what they have between their legs.

M3gaToxic
03-16-2015, 06:45 PM
Here we go again? If no one brings this stuff up, how is anything supposed to change? There are so many video games with Male protagonists I am just getting tired of it to be honest (I don't mind it just need a change) and AC can have a great story with a female protagonist as well. She doesn't need to have a huge chest or wear makeup...Aveline for example. I mean they already have female designs since there are female character in the MP and Aveline so it can be done and I hope it is done. Also I am pretty sure these are the kind of replies people got who wanted MP in AC games as well...and well we have MP.

(Note I was on the no MP side)

Shahkulu101
03-16-2015, 06:46 PM
Here we go again. Who cares what the protagonist is? It's their character and story that gives weight, not what they have between their legs.

Yes, but viewing stories from different perspectives can make the story more unique and interesting, like Connor's story as a Native American and Adewale's as a slave - oh and, yes, Aveline's as a woman. The gender and race of a character IS a factor which can affect a story, and since 90% of stories are shown through the same straight-white lens, more diverse characters and stories would be beneficial to games as a whole.

M3gaToxic
03-16-2015, 06:50 PM
Yes, but viewing stories from different perspectives can make the story more unique and interesting, like Connor's story as a Native American and Adewale's as a slave - oh and, yes, Aveline's as a woman. The gender and race of a character IS a factor which can affect a story, and since 90% of stories are shown through the same straight-white lens, more diverse characters and stories would be beneficial to games as a whole.
See you get what I am saying am saying and explained it much better. I agree 100%

SixKeys
03-16-2015, 07:03 PM
@sixkeys

I think you're generalizing gamers too much as a whole.

yeah there's those idiots.

but then there's people like you and me who know thats bull

and those raging idiots arent going to affect the development of the next bioware game i doubt

its a transitioning period.

and besides, surprisingly lots of people are already growing out of it

for example, when starwars recently introduced a lesbian character the reaction wasn't "oh my god stupid people forcing progressive stuff" the reaction was "you guys didnt have to announce it. a sexuality isnt something that should be deemed noteworthy. just include it without saying anything otherwise you're glorifying and preventing true equal progression"

and this opinion was found in mass in an IGN comments section

people arent as stupid anymore IMO. and those that still are, are slowly growing out of it

ofc there will always be idiots

times are just changing

That Star Wars example isn't a sign of progressiveness, it's just a different way of expressing the same disapproval. Like all those people who claim not to be homophobic while going "I don't have a problem with gay people, I just wish they didn't have to shove it in my face by holding hands and kissing in public".

Having a lesbian character in a mainstream title which has thus far never had one IS big news. It deserves attention. By saying it's not newsworthy people are erasing the feelings of LGBT people who have longed for this kind of recognition for many years. They're essentially saying "I don't think it's newsworthy that you're getting representation, so you shouldn't think so either".

JustPlainQuirky
03-16-2015, 07:06 PM
That Star Wars example isn't a sign of progressiveness, it's just a different way of expressing the same disapproval. Like all those people who claim not to be homophobic while going "I don't have a problem with gay people, I just wish they didn't have to shove it in my face by holding hands and kissing in public".

Having a lesbian character in a mainstream title which has thus far never had one IS big news. It deserves attention. By saying it's not newsworthy people are erasing the feelings of LGBT people who have longed for this kind of recognition for many years. They're essentially saying "I don't think it's newsworthy that you're getting representation, so you shouldn't think so either".

uh sorry no

its the exact opposite.

most of the people who disagreed with the announcement were pro LGBT and some were open homosexuals

it doesnt deserve attention and plenty LGBT individuals agree with me

a character doesnt get a huge article announcement when its revealed he's straight, then a same should be for a homosexual. otherwise there will always be this 'special attention' feeling and people wont adjust to it as being normal

to reach true normality, major announcements shouldnt be made.

but now we're just discussing politics hngh

SixKeys
03-16-2015, 07:23 PM
uh sorry no

its the exact opposite.

most of the people who disagreed with the announcement were pro LGBT and some were open homosexuals

Good for them? Doesn't invalidate the feelings of other LGBT people.



a character doesnt get a huge article announcement when its revealed he's straight, then a same should be for a homosexual. otherwise there will always be this 'special attention' feeling and people wont adjust to it as being normal

Straightness doesn't get announced because people assume it by default unless otherwise indicated. Which is exactly why news outlets and devs feel the need to specifically state "BTW, this character is not hetero". It matters to people who are specifically looking for more representation of their own experiences in fiction. If someone else doesn't care about it, I don't see why they have to announce that to the world. I don't care about sports, but you don't see me going around commenting on articles: "Ugh, who cares if today marks the opening of another sportsball season? I don't think this is newsworthy because there's always sports going on somewhere, so stick to writing about news I care about."

JustPlainQuirky
03-16-2015, 07:27 PM
thats not the point.

the point is, if you want to create a feeling of equality and acceptance without tension, you dont wait for a minority (for ex) to walk into a room and shine light on them and go "HEY LOOK WE GOT ONE!"

you let them into the party and treat them as anyone else


Good for them? Doesn't invalidate the feelings of other LGBT people.


as long as it's clear a good chunk -if not majority- disagreed with the handling of the star wars announcement

SixKeys
03-16-2015, 08:04 PM
thats not the point.

the point is, if you want to create a feeling of equality and acceptance without tension, you dont wait for a minority (for ex) to walk into a room and shine light on them and go "HEY LOOK WE GOT ONE!"

you let them into the party and treat them as anyone else

I get what you mean with the party analogy, but it's a poor example because in most face-to-face interactions you A) can never really tell how people feel about you even if they're smiling when you walk into the room and B) sexual preferences don't come into play unless it's an orgy. A video game is not the same as a real life social situation. In real life, I might have to hide my sexuality for fear of rejection or social outcasting. In a video game, I can interact with fictional characters with similar life experiences as mine in a very intimate (not physically, but emotionally) simulation. In a fantasy world, I don't have to worry about people stabbing me in the back by talking **** about me behind my back whilst smiling to my face. In a fantasy world, I can feel safe. If there is a such a new fantasy world available, I would like to know about it, therefore it's newsworthy to me. Especially since many other games promote aggressive masculinity as the norm. GTA's hyper-masculine world does not feel "safe" to me. It's a world in which female characters are objectified and treated aggressively and condescendingly. If there is another game world where I can have fun in a similar manner and NOT feel as if my gender devalues me as a person, I would like to know about it so I can pick it up. Same goes for sexual preferences, since homosexuality is often viewed as inherently "feminine" and therefore inferior to the "masculinity" of heterosexuality.

JustPlainQuirky
03-16-2015, 08:06 PM
call me stupid but i did not understand what you just said

are you trying to say videogames should be a form of escapism or something?

SixKeys
03-16-2015, 08:09 PM
call me stupid but i did not understand what you just said

are you trying to say videogames should be a form of escapism or something?

Yes, that is exactly what video games are. Just like movies and books.

Mr.Black24
03-16-2015, 08:10 PM
Yes, but viewing stories from different perspectives can make the story more unique and interesting, like Connor's story as a Native American and Adewale's as a slave - oh and, yes, Aveline's as a woman. The gender and race of a character IS a factor which can affect a story, and since 90% of stories are shown through the same straight-white lens, more diverse characters and stories would be beneficial to games as a whole. Exactly! Give me something new! Its one of Assassin's Creed's charming qualities, that its diverse, and its something that many people would like to see preserved. Like I don't mind straight white males, I just want something new and interesting from time to time. I'm tired of this kind of line up thats everywhere all the time in videogames:

http://media3.mic.com/NGU0ZmJmYWExMiMveGM0ckpzUXpNcXREMlFzRUhrclNKdHBQcn RvPS82eDA6OTAxeDU2NC8xMjgweDYyMC9zMy5hbWF6b25hd3Mu Y29tL3BvbGljeW1pYy1pbWFnZXMvY2QxOGE5YmJiOWZmMGMxOW I2Y2FmNDU4ZDkzZTFmMDk2OWM0NWU5MjJhZjA0YzE2NWM1YjU4 YTMzOGEzM2U4My5qcGc%3D.jpg

I don't want chicken nuggets anymore mom. I want that BigMac with the large fries! I don't know why the Prince of Persia character is up there, since he's persian, but you know what I mean.

JustPlainQuirky
03-16-2015, 08:11 PM
@sixkeys

Eeeeeeehhhhhhhhh

Not sure I agree fully.

Because some games such as spec ops and some movies such as schindler's list are horrible use for escapism but give us something compelling to think about

but thats a different debate entirely and that is what essentially is the basis of each of our arguments in this debate so i guess...er....

agree to disagree?

http://thelifestream.net/forums/images/smilies/cookiemonster.gif


http://media3.mic.com/NGU0ZmJmYWExMiMveGM0ckpzUXpNcXREMlFzRUhrclNKdHBQcn RvPS82eDA6OTAxeDU2NC8xMjgweDYyMC9zMy5hbWF6b25hd3Mu Y29tL3BvbGljeW1pYy1pbWFnZXMvY2QxOGE5YmJiOWZmMGMxOW I2Y2FmNDU4ZDkzZTFmMDk2OWM0NWU5MjJhZjA0YzE2NWM1YjU4 YTMzOGEzM2U4My5qcGc%3D.jpg

lel i didnt know connor was a white man

Mr.Black24
03-16-2015, 08:14 PM
@sixkeys

Eeeeeeehhhhhhhhh

Not sure I agree fully.

Because some games such as spec ops and some movies such as schindler's list are horrible use for escapism but give us something compelling to think about

but thats a different debate entirely and that is what essentially is the basis of each of our arguments in this debate so i guess...er....

agree to disagree?

http://thelifestream.net/forums/images/smilies/cookiemonster.gif



lel i didnt know connor was a white man Wait, where you see Connor?

JustPlainQuirky
03-16-2015, 08:14 PM
top left, you can see his hood and chin

i recognize that potato face anywhere

Shahkulu101
03-16-2015, 08:15 PM
Exactly! Give me something new! Its one of Assassin's Creed's charming qualities, that its diverse, and its something that many people would like to see preserved. Like I don't mind straight white males, I just want something new and interesting. I'm tired of this kind of line up thats everywhere all the time in videogames: http://media3.mic.com/NGU0ZmJmYWExMiMveGM0ckpzUXpNcXREMlFzRUhrclNKdHBQcn RvPS82eDA6OTAxeDU2NC8xMjgweDYyMC9zMy5hbWF6b25hd3Mu Y29tL3BvbGljeW1pYy1pbWFnZXMvY2QxOGE5YmJiOWZmMGMxOW I2Y2FmNDU4ZDkzZTFmMDk2OWM0NWU5MjJhZjA0YzE2NWM1YjU4 YTMzOGEzM2U4My5qcGc%3D.jpgI don't know why the Prince of Persia character is up there, since he's persian, but you know what I mean.

Just to clarify, I have no problem with the fact a lot of characters are white, it's not the skin colour that's important for me. The problem is that all those characters have very similar stories and personalities and that people from other backgrounds and sexes have stories to tell too.

M3gaToxic
03-16-2015, 08:18 PM
top left, you can see his hood and chin

i recognize that potato face anywhere
Hey don't make fun of my boy Connor. Connor is awesome. I love is Assassin outfit the most of all the Assassin's. They need to bring the hood with the point back...which I see Unity did.

M3gaToxic
03-16-2015, 08:19 PM
Just to clarify, I have no problem with the fact a lot of characters are white, it's not the skin colour that's important for me. The problem is that all those characters have very similar stories and personalities and that people from other backgrounds and sexes have stories to tell too.
Also...they are all male, not a single female.

Mr.Black24
03-16-2015, 08:20 PM
top left, you can see his hood and chin

i recognize that potato face anywhereOh crap WTF? Hell I did not see that, nice eyes! Of course he don't count.
But you get what I'm trying to say. People get bored of the same thing, its human nature, and while some aren't bothered by it, many others are. Of course I like Agent 47 and Ezio, for example, but I would also like to see new things too.


Just to clarify, I have no problem with the fact a lot of characters are white, it's not the skin colour that's important for me. The problem is that all those characters have very similar stories and personalities and that people from other backgrounds and sexes have stories to tell too. Yeah and I agree with that. Not saying get rid of white dudes forever, just create something new from time to time.

Lol similar stories and personalities, wanna play bingo?
https://gomakemeasandwich.files.wordpress.com/2014/03/male-protagonist-bingo.jpg

Sorrosyss
03-16-2015, 08:34 PM
I think that's exactly the point why I, and many others, want a female protagonist. It is something different, and it will impact the story we receive. Unity really felt like retreading similar story threads with Arno. Yet Elise brought a whole air of intrigue, and for me was a genuinely more interesting character to learn about.

Liberation had a lot of issues, but I do feel that Aveline brought a lot to the series. You appreciated issues from the time, where women's rights really were very little. There is a wealth of stories there for strong willed females from other cultures where there has previously been oppression of women.

There was some interesting mechanics too in Liberation, such as the persona system - something I do feel they could do a lot more with in the future if fleshed out. The outfits could allow for different ways to complete a mission, which would be a great addition for replay value. The system would benefit a female character far more in my opinion.

M3gaToxic
03-16-2015, 08:39 PM
I think that's exactly the point why I, and many others, want a female protagonist. It is something different, and it will impact the story we receive. Unity really felt like retreading similar story threads with Arno. Yet Elise brought a whole air of intrigue, and for me was a genuinely more interesting character to learn about.

Liberation had a lot of issues, but I do feel that Aveline brought a lot to the series. You appreciated issues from the time, where women's rights really were very little. There is a wealth of stories there for strong willed females from other cultures where there has previously been oppression of women.

There was some interesting mechanics too in Liberation, such as the persona system - something I do feel they could do a lot more with in the future if fleshed out. The outfits could allow for different ways to complete a mission, which would be a great addition for replay value. The system would benefit a female character far more in my opinion. Yes just think of how awesome a full AC game would be with a female protagonist. It would be refreshing for sure since all the Assassin's creed games (except Liberation) is all male. They don't even need to do any love stuff with a female protagonist...unless it works with the story.

RADAR__4077
03-16-2015, 08:46 PM
http://media3.mic.com/NGU0ZmJmYWExMiMveGM0ckpzUXpNcXREMlFzRUhrclNKdHBQcn RvPS82eDA6OTAxeDU2NC8xMjgweDYyMC9zMy5hbWF6b25hd3Mu Y29tL3BvbGljeW1pYy1pbWFnZXMvY2QxOGE5YmJiOWZmMGMxOW I2Y2FmNDU4ZDkzZTFmMDk2OWM0NWU5MjJhZjA0YzE2NWM1YjU4 YTMzOGEzM2U4My5qcGc%3D.jpg

I don't want chicken nuggets anymore mom. I want that BigMac with the large fries! I don't know why the Prince of Persia character is up there, since he's persian, but you know what I mean.

You pointed out Prince of Persia, quirky found Connor.

The soldier on the far right is the Hispanic guy from MOH. Kratos isn't exactly a man.:p

SixKeys
03-16-2015, 09:03 PM
You pointed out Prince of Persia, quirky found Connor.

The soldier on the far right is the Hispanic guy from MOH. Kratos isn't exactly a man.:p

Hispanic is not a race.

Mr.Black24
03-16-2015, 09:06 PM
Hispanic is not a race.
^Ethnicity

Oh but Kratos was a white dude before he became a demigod.

SixKeys
03-16-2015, 09:09 PM
^Ethnicity

Oh but Kratos was a white dude before he became a demigod.

Not ethnicity either, nationality.

HiddenKiller612
03-16-2015, 09:22 PM
^Ethnicity

Oh but Kratos was a white dude before he became a demigod.
He was born a demi-god :rolleyes:.... and he was also fairly tan for a "white dude".

SofaJockey
03-16-2015, 09:39 PM
'Needs' a female protagonist? No
'Would have' a female protagonist? Yes, that would be just fine.

The key is character and plot of course.

(I would have played ACU as Elise if circumstances had allowed...)

Hans684
03-16-2015, 09:59 PM
Yes, but viewing stories from different perspectives can make the story more unique and interesting, like Connor's story as a Native American and Adewale's as a slave - oh and, yes, Aveline's as a woman.

Indeed.


The gender and race of a character IS a factor which can affect a story, and since 90% of stories are shown through the same straight-white lens, more diverse characters and stories would be beneficial to games as a whole.

True, it hit me after posting it but I had other matters to attend so I left it as it was. Not against diversity, I'd rather embrace it but I'm not running Ubi.

Namikaze_17
03-16-2015, 10:10 PM
Hey don't make fun of my boy Connor. Connor is awesome. I love is Assassin outfit the most of all the Assassin's. They need to bring the hood with the point back...which I see Unity did.

You have a lot to learn here, son.

RADAR__4077
03-16-2015, 10:21 PM
Hispanic is not a race.

Neither is Persian, smartypants:p

EmptyCrustacean
03-16-2015, 10:33 PM
Aveline's story was very much gender-driven. It could not have been told from the perspective of a man living in those times, since men were treated entirely differently. Playing Liberation is a very different experience from all the male-driven ACs. It forces you to make use of the disguise system and consider its implications. Some people said the disguise system was annoying because it was limiting. Well yeah, that's kinda the whole point. Aveline's life was limited because she was a woman, and no matter which class she tried to fit in, all of them had their own limitations. Even as a high-society lady certain behavior was expected of her, and as an assassin she could not walk the streets freely without being instantly harassed. It's a great way to teach gamers what it's like to be limited by such a basic thing as your gender. Such a story could simply not be told from a male perspective.

Aveline was harrassed because of her skin colour; not gender. The developers MADE it gender driven by implementing that ridiculous and cheesy tack-on known as the disguise mechanic but it was never really relevant to the narrative. Ubisoft tried to use her femininity, if anything, to her advantage in order to temper the issues surrounding her race in the dumbest way possible. For instance, unlike Adewale, she could flirt with the guards to get them to look the other way. Furthermore, the slave outfit couldn't have worked if she was white and she was robbed of her inheritance because of her race. Trust me, race plays a bigger part than gender in the game - as it should because it is one of themes within the narrative.

That said, the way they handled racial matters in Liberation was awful. This is why I laugh at the 'realism' argument. In real life the white guards wouldn't have turned a blind eye to a wandering black woman just because she was attempting to seduce them in a 'lady' outfit as opposed to her slave outfit - they would have punished her accordingly for not knowing her place. Back then even free black people were kidnapped and sold into slavery. Clearly, Ubisoft don't care for realism so why do some white male gamers constantly preach it in defense of segregation?

The disguise mechanic also plays into this myth that women don't really like sex and only embrace their sexuality when they need something. When we played as male characters was every other mission objective to use our sexuality to seduce women? Are the developers trying to say that all women use their feminine charms to get what they want even when in the case of Aveline who is super stoic and serious it's completely out of character? Didn't the prostitutes in AC2 seduce guards? Just sayin'. The disguise mechanic does nothing but sexually objectify Aveline proving that Ubisoft aren't as progressive thinking as they believe they are.

If Ubisoft wanted to have Aveline traverse freely they could have just done what they did with Unity and had her stick close to the rooftops. Problem solved. You didn't need the disguise mechanic. But they felt they had to make her gender central to the gameplay just to stress that she is a woman which made it seem like a mere gimmick. Aveline may be a woman but she's also an Assassin. Assassins don't have limits. They have resources not open to mere civilians. They possess knowledge far beyond mere mortals should have. Their lifestyles are not limited by morality and law. That is part of their bloody Creed. So the only thing that's "limited" is Ubisoft's imagination.


Your latter argument is problematic because no matter what the developers do at this point, they will be accused of succumbing to the "feminist agenda". Even if they themselves choose to make a female character 100% of their own free will and not due to any kind of outside pressure, gamers simply won't believe them. Hell, Tomb Raider was accused of succumbing to the feminist agenda when the new game decided to focus more on her personality and less on boob physics.

This is what I was saying earlier. It's this sly, subtle misogyny disguised as rational thought that fools only the like-minded who spout such rubbish.

M3gaToxic
03-16-2015, 10:45 PM
You have a lot to learn here, son. That people don't like Connor and don't think AC needs a female protagonist? I guess so.

Namikaze_17
03-16-2015, 10:57 PM
That people don't like Connor and don't think AC needs a female protagonist? I guess so.

You missed my joke, Naruto.

I should tell your mother about this, but we're both dead. :/

SixKeys
03-16-2015, 11:15 PM
Aveline was harrassed because of her skin colour; not gender. The developers MADE it gender driven by implementing that ridiculous and cheesy tack-on known as the disguise mechanic but it was never really relevant to the narrative.

Both her race and her gender were tied to the game mechanics. Her gender made it difficult for her to walk the streets without getting harassed by thugs. In her lady persona she couldn't even climb or run to get away from them quickly which added to the feeling of helplessness.

It's true that narrative-wise her gender didn't play a large part, but the limitations imposed upon her were made clear as day through the gameplay.


That said, the way they handled racial matters in Liberation was awful. This is why I laugh at the 'realism' argument. In real life the white guards wouldn't have turned a blind eye to a wandering black woman just because she was attempting to seduce them in a 'lady' outfit as opposed to her slave outfit - they would have punished her accordingly for not knowing her place. Back then even free black people were kidnapped and sold into slavery. Clearly, Ubisoft don't care for realism so why do some white male gamers constantly preach it in defense of segregation?

In Aveline's case, she was a mulatto with rich, influential parents and friends in high places. I can believe a person in her position would have been granted a bit more leeway in the eyes of the law. In fact, I'm pretty sure they talked about this in a couple of interviews. Aveline herself acknowledged she was privileged in ways many black people weren't just because of her background.


The disguise mechanic also plays into this myth that women don't really like sex and only embrace their sexuality when they need something. When we played as male characters was every other mission objective to use our sexuality to seduce women? Are the developers trying to say that all women use their feminine charms to get what they want even when in the case of Aveline who is super stoic and serious it's completely out of character? Didn't the prostitutes in AC2 seduce guards? Just sayin'. The disguise mechanic does nothing but sexually objectify Aveline proving that Ubisoft aren't as progressive thinking as they believe they are.

I definitely dislike the seduction mechanic. It was stereotypical and pointless. The rest of the individual persona perks and limitations are pretty good though. Maybe they just couldn't think of enough perks to outweigh the bad sides of being confined to the lady disguise so they had to come up with something. It would have been better if they made it work on everybody regardless of gender. Instead of charming men sexually, Aveline could have been a master at charming everyone with her behavior. Sort of like the courtesan effect with Ezio which helped him blend in plain sight, Aveline could have charmed a group of other high-society ladies with witticisms or gossip ("Miss Aveline, you're so cool, can we have tea together?" etc.) and they would have surrounded her and allowed her to move into restricted areas.


If Ubisoft wanted to have Aveline traverse freely they could have just done what they did with Unity and had her stick close to the rooftops. Problem solved. You didn't need the disguise mechanic. But they felt they had to make her gender central to the gameplay just to stress that she is a woman which made it seem like a mere gimmick. Aveline may be a woman but she's also an Assassin. Assassins don't have limits. They have resources not open to mere civilians. They possess knowledge far beyond mere mortals should have. Their lifestyles are not limited by morality and law. That is part of their bloody Creed. So the only thing that's "limited" is Ubisoft's imagination.

I disagree. Liberation is interesting precisely because it shows that even assassins have limitations. They advocate freedom despite or because they themselves know what it's like not to be fully free. Even as an assassin Aveline can never be as free as her male colleagues. There will always be certain expectations placed upon her, extra limitations that restrict her freedom to be who she wants to be. Limitations that male assassins do not have to worry about. It's a subject that Ubi has not tackled in earnest before or after Liberation - what's it really like to be a female assassin in such a male-dominated order? In Altaïr's time, female assassins were unheard of. Ezio recruited some, but we don't know how many or on what basis. In AC3, Dobby is the only female assassin. In Unity, we see only one in the council, and none in co-op missions. So how much progress towards equality has there really been over the centuries? We really don't know anything at all about what it's like being a woman in the assassin brotherhood (heck, even the name implies a boys' only club, whereas the Templar "order" is more inclusive). Now that I think about it, we've seen more female Templars than assassins. What might that tell us about how the two factions treat their members?

M3gaToxic
03-16-2015, 11:16 PM
You missed my joke, Naruto.

I should tell your mother about this, but we're both dead. :/
Damn I forget my name has Naruto in it I made it so long ago. And just realized your name is Namikaze. Sorry dad, I will to my best next time BELIEVE IT!

Mr.Black24
03-16-2015, 11:30 PM
Not ethnicity either, nationality.
No dude, nationality is American, Canadian, Mexican, ect. It refers to more specific country origins.
Full Definition of HISPANIC

1
: of or relating to the people, speech, or culture of Spain or of Spain and Portugal

2
: of, relating to, or being a person of Latin American descent living in the United States; especially : one of Cuban, Mexican, or Puerto Rican origin


Hispanic is like the generalization of the central american countries. Like I am hispanic, due of my ties being Guatemalan, my bloodline/race is of mixed Spain and Native American Mayan origin, however my nationality is American, being born here.

SixKeys
03-16-2015, 11:35 PM
No dude, nationality is American, Canadian, Mexican, ect. It refers to more specific country origins.
Full Definition of HISPANIC

1
: of or relating to the people, speech, or culture of Spain or of Spain and Portugal

2
: of, relating to, or being a person of Latin American descent living in the United States; especially : one of Cuban, Mexican, or Puerto Rican origin


Hispanic is like the generalization of the central american countries. Like I am hispanic, however my nationality is American.

According to Wikipedia (emphasis mine):

"The U.S. Census Bureau defines the ethnonym (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnonym) Hispanic or Latino (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hispanic_and_Latino_Americans) to refer to "a person of Cuban, Mexican, Puerto Rican, South or Central American (except for Brazil), or other Spanish culture or origin regardless of race"[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hispanic#cite_note-census.gov-8) and states that Hispanics or Latinos can be of any race, any ancestry, any ethnicity.[9] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hispanic#cite_note-9) Generically, this limits the definition of Hispanic or Latino to people from the Caribbean, Central and South America, or other Spanish culture or origin, regardless of race, distinctly excluding all persons of Portuguese origin."

Mr.Black24
03-16-2015, 11:43 PM
According to Wikipedia (emphasis mine):

"The U.S. Census Bureau defines the ethnonym (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnonym) Hispanic or Latino (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hispanic_and_Latino_Americans) to refer to "a person of Cuban, Mexican, Puerto Rican, South or Central American (except for Brazil), or other Spanish culture or origin regardless of race"[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hispanic#cite_note-census.gov-8) and states that Hispanics or Latinos can be of any race, any ancestry, any ethnicity.[9] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hispanic#cite_note-9) Generically, this limits the definition of Hispanic or Latino to people from the Caribbean, Central and South America, or other Spanish culture or origin, regardless of race, distinctly excluding all persons of Portuguese origin." Yeah, its a generalization. The sentence right there, refer to "a person of Cuban, Mexican, Puerto Rican, South or Central American (except for Brazil), or other Spanish culture or origin regardless of race" and states that Hispanics or Latinos can be of any race, any ancestry, any ethnicity." proves my point. But its not specific though. Hispanic is the umbrella term, nationality is more specific. You just helped prove my point. Not going to lie, I was going to use that but than I realized that people can edit Wikipedia. I don't find it very reliable, so I used the MerriamWebster instead: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/hispanic

I have Hispanic Origin
To be more specific, my hispanic origin draws from my homeland nationality, Guatemala
My Bloodline race is a mixed one
But my birth Nationality is American.

Plus....eh...most Americans sees us hispanics as mexicans anyway....they don't even bother to tell the difference. The stories of how many ignoramus encounters I had with people here growing up.....uhg

EmptyCrustacean
03-16-2015, 11:53 PM
Both her race and her gender were tied to the game mechanics. Her gender made it difficult for her to walk the streets without getting harassed by thugs. In her lady persona she couldn't even climb or run to get away from them quickly which added to the feeling of helplessness. It's true that narrative-wise her gender didn't play a large part, but the limitations imposed upon her were made clear as day through the gameplay.

No, the harassment was because she was a POC. Notice how the other female characters in the game aren't seen being harrassed by thugs. Her gender played into the mechanics but it was never an issue for the narrative that's why the disguise persona was unecessary. The narrative is supposed to inform the mechanics and vice versa. Because gender is not a central theme in the story there was no need to make it a part of the mechanics - especially when it is out of character. You've just reminded me why the lady persona is even more silly for Aveline - as if an Assassin would wear outfits she couldn't climb in lol. There are so many ways to move around in restricted areas and Ubisoft utilised that with their male protagonists all the time. Plus Aveline is an Assassin. Assassins are supposed to be stealthy. She shouldn't be able to move around freely in restricted areas anyway.


In Aveline's case, she was a mulatto with rich, influential parents and friends in high places. I can believe a person in her position would have been granted a bit more leeway in the eyes of the law. In fact, I'm pretty sure they talked about this in a couple of interviews. Aveline herself acknowledged she was privileged in ways many black people weren't just because of her background.

That's simply not true. You're exaggerating. Yes, she would have been granted more leeway (provided that she didn't overstep her bounds) but would still be treated like a second class citizen and would be taken away the moment she stepped out of line. It would have been like walking on egg shells. Aveline even has that nightmare where she loses her mother and some guard snatches her away and sells her into slavery - that's the reality she was living everyday; that she could lose her freedom at any given moment. She certainly would not have been able to go out alone without the aid of a white family member and she would not be able to flirt with guards. Mixed race citizens were not immune to being sold into slavery and, if anything, would be more profitable since they were deemed visually more appealling to white male slave owners.


I definitely dislike the seduction mechanic. It was stereotypical and pointless. The rest of the individual persona perks and limitations are pretty good though. Maybe they just couldn't think of enough perks to outweigh the bad sides of being confined to the lady disguise so they had to come up with something. It would have been better if they made it work on everybody regardless of gender. Instead of charming men sexually, Aveline could have been a master at charming everyone with her behavior. Sort of like the courtesan effect with Ezio which helped him blend in plain sight, Aveline could have charmed a group of other high-society ladies with witticisms or gossip ("Miss Aveline, you're so cool, can we have tea together?" etc.) and they would have surrounded her and allowed her to move into restricted areas.

They could have avoided that altogether by not creating those 'bad sides' at all.


I disagree. Liberation is interesting precisely because it shows that even assassins have limitations. They advocate freedom despite or because they themselves know what it's like not to be fully free. Even as an assassin Aveline can never be as free as her male colleagues. There will always be certain expectations placed upon her, extra limitations that restrict her freedom to be who she wants to be. Limitations that male assassins do not have to worry about. It's a subject that Ubi has not tackled in earnest before or after Liberation - what's it really like to be a female assassin in such a male-dominated order? In Altaïr's time, female assassins were unheard of. Ezio recruited some, but we don't know how many or on what basis. In AC3, Dobby is the only female assassin. In Unity, we see only one in the council, and none in co-op missions. So how much progress towards equality has there really been over the centuries? We really don't know anything at all about what it's like being a woman in the assassin brotherhood (heck, even the name implies a boys' only club, whereas the Templar "order" is more inclusive). Now that I think about it, we've seen more female Templars than assassins. What might that tell us about how the two factions treat their members?

The all male co-op had nothing to do with how women were placed within the Brotherhood and only to do with Ubi's own sexism - which is why there was so much outrage over it. There was no reason why there couldn't have been a female there. In Altair's time, women could not be Assassins but by Ezio's time it was clear the Brotherhood had become way more inclusive. It was the Renaissance for heaven's sake. Ezio had several female 'brothers' and even had that Asian female protege/apprentice.

Altair1789
03-17-2015, 12:34 AM
Nooo get off to tumblr u femenazi troll why u wanna push your SJW **** in our games? Whatever happened to games that are actually fun and not pushing femenazi/lgbt/black propoganda?Everyone seems to ahve a weird fetish with these, seriously give me a break. smh

I agree with this. Of course, I don't hate seeing female or black protagonists, but because it really shouldn't matter. If Ubisoft wants to make a female protagonist, so be it, if they want a white protagonist, so be it, if they want a black protagonist, so be it, we shouldn't be forcing them to make the protagonists different because there aren't enough X minority groups

SixKeys
03-17-2015, 12:35 AM
We're just gonna have to agree to disagree on the Aveline stuff. I'm willing to suspend my disbelief for certain aspects of the game, like the fact that we don't see other women being harassed by thugs. It's logical from a game design POV - if you had other civilians being harassed, it might wrongly signal to the player that it was a mission they could interact with, when in fact those scenes would be mere window-dressing. Keep in mind Liberation started off as a handheld title. The gameplay was limited in many ways. Now, it could be argued they could have put more effort into polishing it for the HD release, but that's a separate discussion.

I'm also willing to grant the devs some leeway in their depiction of that particular time within the confines of a video game, which is, in the end, designed for entertainment, not education. All the games have historical inaccuracies or things that don't make sense given the time period and the protagonist's place in it. Like how can a man like Ezio from a wealthy, noble family continue to remain totally anonymous for years, especially after announcing to the world after his very first, high-profile assassination that "I'm still here! Me, Ezio Auditore" ? Some things cannot be 100% historically accurate or even logical in a game.

I think Liberation mostly succeeds in making the player relate to an unusual protagonist through gameplay. Not everything may be entirely accurate about it, but then, we're talking about people performing leaps of faith from hundreds of feet into haybales.



The all male co-op had nothing to do with how women were placed within the Brotherhood and only to do with Ubi's own sexism - which is why there was so much outrage over it. There was no reason why there couldn't have been a female there. In Altair's time, women could not be Assassins but by Ezio's time it was clear the Brotherhood had become way more inclusive. It was the Renaissance for heaven's sake. Ezio had several female 'brothers' and even had that Asian female protege/apprentice.

Yes, clearly the real-world reason is Ubi's own aversion towards having female protags, but like it or not, this exclusion means it's also canon in the games. We never see any female assassins in Arno's brotherhood (apart from one council member), so we must assume there are none, and that's only a couple of centuries before our time.

If Ezio renewed the brotherhood so much and made everyone equal, why have things gone backwards in Connor and Arno's era? Why do we have so few prominent female assassins and so many prominent female Templars? Maybe the Templars have something to offer that's more appealing to women than what the assassins have, like higher positions? I can name several female Templars who held respected leader positions within the order, but barely any female assassins in such high positions. Nothing is true, everything is permitted - except breaking the glass ceiling, perhaps?

M3gaToxic
03-17-2015, 02:41 AM
I agree with this. Of course, I don't hate seeing female or black protagonists, but because it really shouldn't matter. If Ubisoft wants to make a female protagonist, so be it, if they want a white protagonist, so be it, if they want a black protagonist, so be it, we shouldn't be forcing them to make the protagonists different because there aren't enough X minority groups
But if no one says anything then they don't have that option. I for one would love to see an AC game with Female protagonist...I kind of feel AC needs it. Don't care too much what race she is.

Mr.Black24
03-17-2015, 04:14 AM
Personally I thought one of Assassin's Creed's greatest is the diversity. I like how it has established itself, and its one of the many reasons why people, like myself were so drawn to this game, that it offers so much for a videogame series. I mean how many video game series offers the chance to go to different time periods, having different and diverse characters, in both race and personality? Where else do you get to play as a badass arabic Assassin that transforms the Brotherhood, an italian that restores Assassin, a pirate Assassin, a mixed race Assassin that helped found a country, and a former slave Assassin that rescues other slaves from further suffering? If you lined them up, you see this amazing line up of heroes of various time periods! People like myself don't mind a white protagonist, just simply we just don't want that all the time. It gets bland, and generic, leave the generic white males to other studios.

I mean for a videogame studio that has various races, religions, faiths and beliefs, why shouldn't the series reflect that too?

The_Kiwi_
03-17-2015, 03:16 PM
Some New York (I think) publicist reviewed The Last of Us and said it was a bad game because it wasted the opportunity for the audience to play as Ellie
They said it was just another game made by men, for men, about men
That's just feminist ******** propaganda

The important thing is that the game needs to actually work with a female protagonist

Imagine playing TLoU completely as Ellie
For the first half of the game, you'd literally just hide while Joel took care of the enemies
You'd spend a lot of time standing around waiting for Joel to find you pallets to stand on to take you across water
It would be the most boring game ever, but at least the story would be the same

The story needs to fit well with a female character
Anything other than that is just forced submission by the developers into catering to the needs of whiny feminists demanding that their gender be represented, simply because they want "equality", but in reality want superiority

I bet most feminists look at The Avengers with disgust because it only has one female Avenger, but I would also bet that those same women would praise the movie if it had only one male Avenger, and also tell men that complain to shut up

Feminists and hypocrisy go hand in hand

I'll stop my rant now :rolleyes:

Shahkulu101
03-17-2015, 05:43 PM
If the story needs to "fit" in order to have a female character why is it different with males?

That Last of Us review is daft though. Made by men, mostly. For and about men, lol no.

Mr.Black24
03-17-2015, 06:37 PM
Some New York (I think) publicist reviewed The Last of Us and said it was a bad game because it wasted the opportunity for the audience to play as Ellie
They said it was just another game made by men, for men, about men
That's just feminist ******** propaganda

The important thing is that the game needs to actually work with a female protagonist

Imagine playing TLoU completely as Ellie
For the first half of the game, you'd literally just hide while Joel took care of the enemies
You'd spend a lot of time standing around waiting for Joel to find you pallets to stand on to take you across water
It would be the most boring game ever, but at least the story would be the same

The story needs to fit well with a female character
Anything other than that is just forced submission by the developers into catering to the needs of whiny feminists demanding that their gender be represented, simply because they want "equality", but in reality want superiority

I bet most feminists look at The Avengers with disgust because it only has one female Avenger, but I would also bet that those same women would praise the movie if it had only one male Avenger, and also tell men that complain to shut up

Feminists and hypocrisy go hand in hand

I'll stop my rant now :rolleyes: There is a difference between radical feminists and disciplined feminists. You just described the former. I know plenty of feminists that love the movie for what it is. Just sayin, you can't generalize them all.

Assassin_M
03-17-2015, 06:43 PM
I don't get it.

"We wants females"

Okay, support Liberation

"No, it sucks"

Just, how? Support a bad game so that they'd make a good game. It's really simple. A very small amount of people are going to support Chronicles. But they want a female game. Support a female game, dammit. Who gives a flying rat if you don't like it? Show that you like SOMETHING about it. You like that it has a female character, flippin' support THAT. I bought Liberation HD and i'll buy Chronicles China because they give interesting and different perspectives. I like that they star women, thus i'm supporting these games so that they'd make more, better.

Get this through all of your heads. You want a female game? Support the ones present. Vote with your wallets. Anything else is pointless nagging.

Mr.Black24
03-17-2015, 07:10 PM
I don't get it.

"We wants females"

Okay, support Liberation

"No, it sucks"

Just, how? Support a bad game so that they'd make a good game. It's really simple. A very small amount of people are going to support Chronicles. But they want a female game. Support a female game, dammit. Who gives a flying rat if you don't like it? Show that you like SOMETHING about it. You like that it has a female character, flippin' support THAT. I bought Liberation HD and i'll buy Chronicles China because they give interesting and different perspectives. I like that they star women, thus i'm supporting these games so that they'd make more, better.

Get this through all of your heads. You want a female game? Support the ones present. Vote with your wallets. Anything else is pointless nagging.Bruh, we gotta have an Aveline discussion thread. I have Liberation HD and so far its so good. I don't get why some people don't think much of Aveline, she demonstrates a lot of character.

EmptyCrustacean
03-17-2015, 07:12 PM
Some New York (I think) publicist reviewed The Last of Us and said it was a bad game because it wasted the opportunity for the audience to play as Ellie
They said it was just another game made by men, for men, about men
That's just feminist ******** propaganda

The important thing is that the game needs to actually work with a female protagonist

Imagine playing TLoU completely as Ellie
For the first half of the game, you'd literally just hide while Joel took care of the enemies
You'd spend a lot of time standing around waiting for Joel to find you pallets to stand on to take you across water
It would be the most boring game ever, but at least the story would be the same

The story needs to fit well with a female character
Anything other than that is just forced submission by the developers into catering to the needs of whiny feminists demanding that their gender be represented, simply because they want "equality", but in reality want superiority

I bet most feminists look at The Avengers with disgust because it only has one female Avenger, but I would also bet that those same women would praise the movie if it had only one male Avenger, and also tell men that complain to shut up

Feminists and hypocrisy go hand in hand

I'll stop my rant now :rolleyes:

I remember that article and whilst I disagree with it for the most part I think the only reason why the journalist wrote that is because there is a lack of female protagonists in games in general. The point he/she was trying to make is that Joel's late daughter and Ellie are just props to spring him into action; to give him some sort of character growth. They're not really characters in their own right. There's nothing wrong with that because, after all, this is Joel's story. But I think that's the problem - TLOU is yet another game about an angry, brooding white male. We have plenty of those. Whilst I think its portrayal of women is absolutely fine I think the journalist was harsh on it because it falls into a cliche. If we got to see stories from other social groups' perspectives you can bet that article wouldn't exist. That said, I thought TLOU as a game was average at best and severely overrated but that's a different matter altogether.

SixKeys
03-17-2015, 07:15 PM
I don't get it.

"We wants females"

Okay, support Liberation

"No, it sucks"

Just, how? Support a bad game so that they'd make a good game. It's really simple. A very small amount of people are going to support Chronicles. But they want a female game. Support a female game, dammit. Who gives a flying rat if you don't like it? Show that you like SOMETHING about it. You like that it has a female character, flippin' support THAT. I bought Liberation HD and i'll buy Chronicles China because they give interesting and different perspectives. I like that they star women, thus i'm supporting these games so that they'd make more, better.

Get this through all of your heads. You want a female game? Support the ones present. Vote with your wallets. Anything else is pointless nagging.

I get your logic, but I find it difficult to agree with "support bad games so we can get some good ones". If a game is bad, then it's bad. If enough people support something bad, then Ubi will think they can feed any crap to the public and people will eat it up without question. I don't see why I have to waste my hard-earned money on games that I simply don't want to play. Instead of haphazardly throwing together a game with most of its assets cloned from AC3 and a nonsensical story like Liberation, Ubi could have actually invested in a proper game with a female lead. That means main console title, with the same amount of marketing they throw at their male leads. Yes, it costs money, but if the game is actually good, people will buy it. Just look at the Tomb Raider reboot. For years they kept pumping out bad TR titles, relying on brand recognition alone, and they kept flopping. Then they finally invested real money and effort into a reboot and it paid off.

ze_topazio
03-17-2015, 07:26 PM
Making threads in official forums can help too, it can make them aware people may be interest in that.

Assassin_M
03-17-2015, 07:28 PM
I get your logic, but I find it difficult to agree with "support bad games so we can get some good ones". If a game is bad, then it's bad. If enough people support something bad, then Ubi will think they can feed any crap to the public and people will eat it up without question. I don't see why I have to waste my hard-earned money on games that I simply don't want to play. Instead of haphazardly throwing together a game with most of its assets cloned from AC3 and a nonsensical story like Liberation, Ubi could have actually invested in a proper game with a female lead. That means main console title, with the same amount of marketing they throw at their male leads. Yes, it costs money, but if the game is actually good, people will buy it. Just look at the Tomb Raider reboot. For years they kept pumping out bad TR titles, relying on brand recognition alone, and they kept flopping. Then they finally invested real money and effort into a reboot and it paid off.
Lara Croft was pretty popular and successful ever since its inception, it was one of the major reasons the original playstation was so successful. The thing is, Ubi can't invest without incentive. You want them to invest for no reason. They gave a tease in the form of Liberation. It stars a black female. It's a risk but it's a manageable risk. YOU don't want to take a risk. You only want ubisoft to take the risk of developing a main game starring a female. You don't want to spend your hard earned money on a bad game that stars a female, so similarly, ubisoft doesn't want to risk spending a lot of money on making a main game starring a female. It's a give-give situation. If you don't give, you wont take. Nothing is free. You want a good female game? Buy the mediocre one.

Ubisoft are not idiots. They know EXACTLY why they made Liberation. If people buy it, they wont think "Oh, they'll take any crap we produce, lets make more crap", no, they'll think back to their ORIGINAL purpose of Liberation. "Ooohhh, the game with the girl worked. Our minimal risk made a huge profit, okay then, lets take a bigger risk and the profit will be bigger". It's a relative relationship. They don't want to piss you off, they simply saw the profit Liberation made and made a business decision based on that. No females for main games. It's not profitable.

"But they haven't tried"

Well, you haven't tried either.


Bruh, we gotta have an Aveline discussion thread. I have Liberation HD and so far its so good. I don't get why some people don't think much of Aveline, she demonstrates a lot of character.
Agreed. We should do that sometime.


Making threads in official forums can help too, it can make them aware people may be interest in that.
If that's true, Rogue would have been called "Connor returns"

EmptyCrustacean
03-17-2015, 07:33 PM
I get your logic, but I find it difficult to agree with "support bad games so we can get some good ones". If a game is bad, then it's bad. If enough people support something bad, then Ubi will think they can feed any crap to the public and people will eat it up without question. I don't see why I have to waste my hard-earned money on games that I simply don't want to play. Instead of haphazardly throwing together a game with most of its assets cloned from AC3 and a nonsensical story like Liberation, Ubi could have actually invested in a proper game with a female lead. That means main console title, with the same amount of marketing they throw at their male leads. Yes, it costs money, but if the game is actually good, people will buy it. Just look at the Tomb Raider reboot. For years they kept pumping out bad TR titles, relying on brand recognition alone, and they kept flopping. Then they finally invested real money and effort into a reboot and it paid off.

This. I want games with female protagonists but I want GOOD games with female protagonists. Quality should always take priority.
Also, the Tomb Raider reboot is awesome - Batman Arkham meets ACIII meets Far Cry 3 (and apparently Uncharted but I've never played Uncharted)
Sadly, the developers sold their souls to Microsoft so many fans won't get to play the sequel until ages away.

I-Like-Pie45
03-17-2015, 07:34 PM
male female they're all just food to me

SixKeys
03-17-2015, 07:46 PM
Lara Croft was pretty popular and successful ever since its inception, it was one of the major reasons the original playstation was so successful. The thing is, Ubi can't invest without incentive. You want them to invest for no reason. They gave a tease in the form of Liberation. It stars a black female. It's a risk but it's a manageable risk. YOU don't want to take a risk. You only want ubisoft to take the risk of developing a main game starring a female. You don't want to spend your hard earned money on a bad game that stars a female, so similarly, ubisoft doesn't want to risk spending a lot of money on making a main game starring a female. It's a give-give situation. If you don't give, you wont take. Nothing is free. You want a good female game? Buy the mediocre one.

Ubisoft are not idiots. They know EXACTLY why they made Liberation. If people buy it, they wont think "Oh, they'll take any crap we produce, lets make more crap", no, they'll think back to their ORIGINAL purpose of Liberation. "Ooohhh, the game with the girl worked. Our minimal risk made a huge profit, okay then, lets take a bigger risk and the profit will be bigger". It's a relative relationship. They don't want to piss you off, they simply saw the profit Liberation made and made a business decision based on that. No females for main games. It's not profitable.

"But they haven't tried"

Well, you haven't tried either.


Hey, don't blame me. :p I did buy Liberation precisely because I wanted to support female characters in games. I had heard it was pretty bad, seen some footage myself, so I knew what I was in for. I still bought it anyway. But I'm also aware that Ubi has a flawed feedback system, as evidenced by the recent "criticism sandwich" thread. Apparently they only look at numbers when it comes to data, but don't always know how to interpret that data. They implement a mission rating system into their games, but it's confusing because there's no way for them to tell if the people who rated the mission poorly did so because of bad gameplay or bad narrative. Liberation had a few great ideas gameplay-wise, but the way the story was told was mind-bogglingly incompetent. I'm more of a gameplay person, so I can live with its flaws, but I understand those who play these games for story and hated the presentation.

I will give Ubi credit for releasing Liberation on major platforms later instead of leaving it to die as an obscure handheld title. But I worry that their risk-taking with minority characters will be limited to cheap spinoffs. China Chronicles is even less of an investment than Liberation was. It looks like a mobile game and will be released as part of the DLC for a much bigger title. It doesn't instil a lot of confidence in me regarding the future treatment of female protagonists.

Assassin_M
03-17-2015, 07:57 PM
Hey, don't blame me. :p I did buy Liberation precisely because I wanted to support female characters in games. I had heard it was pretty bad, seen some footage myself, so I knew what I was in for. I still bought it anyway. But I'm also aware that Ubi has a flawed feedback system, as evidenced by the recent "criticism sandwich" thread. Apparently they only look at numbers when it comes to data, but don't always know how to interpret that data. They implement a mission rating system into their games, but it's confusing because there's no way for them to tell if the people who rated the mission poorly did so because of bad gameplay or bad narrative. Liberation had a few great ideas gameplay-wise, but the way the story was told was mind-bogglingly incompetent. I'm more of a gameplay person, so I can live with its flaws, but I understand those who play these games for story and hated the presentation.
Oh oh I know you bought Liberation. I was talking in general about people complaining but turn chicken when they're told to support a game like Liberation and stopping support to male dominant games.

Again, and this is something a lot of people take for granted, developers are not cross eyed monkeys who smash keyboards. They designed these missions, they KNOW every nook and cranny. They don't NOT know what was wrong with a mission or level, they absolutely do. They don't get epiphanies when someone on the internet points out a flaw or problem, they already KNOW but they had to accept that their game will ship like that. When they see a rating for their mission, 80% of the time, they'll know exactly what went wrong. That's what testing is for. Most likely, they got huge rolls of paper telling them that the Lexington mission was not fun, that killing Alligators as an optional objective is nonsensical. It's hard to believe, but that's the reality of game development.



I will give Ubi credit for releasing Liberation on major platforms later instead of leaving it to die as an obscure handheld title. But I worry that their risk-taking with minority characters will be limited to cheap spinoffs.
It's a start. It's their initial investment. They took an initiative. Now it's other people's turn to take the risk.

ze_topazio
03-17-2015, 08:08 PM
If that's true, Rogue would have been called "Connor returns"

Every pressure counts, the more noise, the higher the chances they hear.

Connor is disliked by many, they are aware the majority are not interested in more Connor, for every fan there's hundreds who dislike him or are neutral.

Assassin_M
03-17-2015, 08:11 PM
Every pressure counts, the more noise, the higher the chances they hear.

Female protagonists are disliked by many, they are aware the majority are not interested in more females, for every fan there's hundreds who dislike them or are neutral.
How's that?

ze_topazio
03-17-2015, 08:16 PM
Yes, but that was never tested, while Connor was already tested.

I don't remember Aveline getting any major hate.

Shahkulu101
03-17-2015, 08:19 PM
Gamers will buy games with female protagonists even if they aren't sexualised - as evidenced by Tomb Raider 2015 which is the best-selling game in the franchise.

Publishers shouldn't be scared to create games with female protagonists. Ubisoft don't need to 'test the waters' with handheld games. Liberation sold well anyway, and the admittedly misguided Unity debacle showed even more support for it. So nothing's stopping them at the moment, apart from their own tentativeness (it does have to be said that they might be developing a game with a female protagonist at this very moment though).

Assassin_M
03-17-2015, 08:23 PM
Yes, but that was never tested, while Connor was already tested.

I don't remember Aveline getting any major hate.
My point was, making claims is moot. As much as Connor got hate, he got more praise. We all see what we want to see. AC III on metacritic has 769 positive to 228 negative. That means for every one who disliked the game (safe to extend this to Connor), there were 5 who liked it. The guy won a user-voted award beating Master Chief, 47 and Max Payne. EVERY video of EVERY walkthrough of Liberation HD on YT has at most 10,000 views. Only the mission where Connor appears has at least 100,000 views. Connor was polarizing. ubisoft is interested in investing in characters that are universally popular, such as Ezio. Darby said so himself. That Ezio was the only universally liked protagonist.

Lets not make claims. It's moot and it's not the subject here. I could just as easily make things up and say "Aveline was tested and a lot of people hated her" and so on. It's irrelevant. Demanding stuff on forums doesn't do ****. It does things with the app, initiates...etc but not with Connor nor female characters.

Mr.Black24
03-17-2015, 08:30 PM
Every pressure counts, the more noise, the higher the chances they hear.

Connor is disliked by many, they are aware the majority are not interested in more Connor, for every fan there's hundreds who dislike him or are neutral.Not really, the fanbase for Connor have grown steadily through the years, you haven't heard from them much since they're kind of jaded with the thought that Ubisoft will NEVER bring him back. I know plenty that want him back, but they're in a "Why bother since they won't listen to us" and "Ubi will only crank out white male charismatic, generic, lover boy" mindset.

Hope has grown since the ending of Rogue implies that Shay is aware of Connor and confrontation is expected, but hopefully that will actually lead to something good.

ze_topazio
03-17-2015, 08:34 PM
I'm not saying a thread here will revolutionize anything, it's just another planted tree in the plan to build a forest.

HiddenKiller612
03-17-2015, 08:58 PM
I bought liberation HD, because it looked a bit interesting and different. It had a female character in a new place in time and I enjoyed it for what it was... When I get a vita, I'll probably even buy it a second time. Sure it was a bit under par compared to the main games... but it is a start. I'm also quite interested in Chronicles: China as well.

M3gaToxic
03-18-2015, 02:01 AM
Every pressure counts, the more noise, the higher the chances they hear.

Connor is disliked by many, they are aware the majority are not interested in more Connor, for every fan there's hundreds who dislike him or are neutral.

What? People didn't like Connor? I would love to see another game with him. He was a very interesting character.

M3gaToxic
03-18-2015, 02:03 AM
Gamers will buy games with female protagonists even if they aren't sexualised - as evidenced by Tomb Raider 2015 which is the best-selling game in the franchise.

Publishers shouldn't be scared to create games with female protagonists. Ubisoft don't need to 'test the waters' with handheld games. Liberation sold well anyway, and the admittedly misguided Unity debacle showed even more support for it. So nothing's stopping them at the moment, apart from their own tentativeness (it does have to be said that they might be developing a game with a female protagonist at this very moment though).

I so hope that is true!!

Namikaze_17
03-18-2015, 02:06 AM
What? People didn't like Connor? I would love to see another game with him. He was a very interesting character.

Once again, you have so much to learn here...

M3gaToxic
03-18-2015, 02:09 AM
I bought liberation HD, because it looked a bit interesting and different. It had a female character in a new place in time and I enjoyed it for what it was... When I get a vita, I'll probably even buy it a second time. Sure it was a bit under par compared to the main games... but it is a start. I'm also quite interested in Chronicles: China as well.

Just watched the trailer for Chronicles China. Kind of sad it isn't 3D like the main Unity game. But the fact that they are giving female Assassins some light is good. Lets hope we will see a full 3D female protagonist AC games!

M3gaToxic
03-18-2015, 02:10 AM
Once again, you have so much to learn here...

Then explain to me "father"!

The_Kiwi_
03-18-2015, 02:16 AM
Connor is a potato.

M3gaToxic
03-18-2015, 02:38 AM
Connor is a potato.
Why do you say that?

The_Kiwi_
03-18-2015, 02:52 AM
Why do you say that?

It is known.

M3gaToxic
03-18-2015, 03:00 AM
It is known.
Okay but give me a reason why people do not like Connor and call him a "potato"/"potato face"?

Fatal-Feit
03-18-2015, 03:17 AM
Potato face Cunner is just a tease, mate. He's quite loved in the community.

Namikaze_17
03-18-2015, 03:43 AM
Potato face Cunner is just a tease, mate. He's quite loved in the forum community.

Fixed that for ya. :rolleyes:

SpiritOfNevaeh
03-18-2015, 04:45 AM
Potato face Connor is just a tease, mate. He's quite loved in the Assassin's Creed community, and even the so-called haters are warming up to him

Fixed again because too many truths were left out. :rolleyes:

The_Kiwi_
03-18-2015, 08:58 AM
I love Connor so much it borders on the demented so I wouldn't be happy if too many truths were left out about him. :rolleyes:

You're welcome.

SixKeys
03-18-2015, 11:43 AM
Okay but give me a reason why people do not like Connor and call him a "potato"/"potato face"?

Connor is a potato (http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/772319-Connor-is-a-potato-Forums)

Namikaze_17
03-18-2015, 11:48 AM
Connor is a potato (http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/772319-Connor-is-a-potato-Forums)

http://statics.vrutal.com/m/7655/76553478374bb27b4d5fe8f3dcf859f6.gif

Shahkulu101
03-18-2015, 02:21 PM
I so hope that is true!!

Eh, don't hold your breath...

M3gaToxic
03-18-2015, 06:10 PM
Connor is a potato (http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/772319-Connor-is-a-potato-Forums)

Well that was kind of stupid. There are reasons to why Connor is the way he is, he saw is mother burn, and his father is a Templar who tried to kill him, and he grew up in an era where Native Americans where looked down upon. I would be the same way. Still Connor does not look like a Potato.

M3gaToxic
03-18-2015, 06:11 PM
Eh, don't hold your breath...

Hey...it could happen I pray it happens. Ubiosoft needs to make a full Female protagonist AC game. But yeah if I hold my breath I may die so...I will just keep breathing and hoping.

Fatal-Feit
03-18-2015, 07:00 PM
^ Welcome to the forums.

AssassinHMS
03-18-2015, 07:56 PM
And Tomb Raider needs a male protagonist...

Shahkulu101
03-18-2015, 08:01 PM
And Tomb Raider needs a male protagonist...

That's the story of one character who is a woman, just like Uncharted is the story of one man.

AC is an annual franchise with multiple protagonists - totally different.

AssassinHMS
03-18-2015, 08:16 PM
That's the story of one character who is a woman, just like Uncharted is the story of one man.

AC is an annual franchise with multiple protagonists - totally different.

What if Drake had a daughter and the next game followed her instead? After all, he isn’t getting any younger.
Same world, same gameplay…I’m pretty sure it would still be Uncharted. It’s not like the series’ called “Nathan Drake” or “Lara Croft”.

M3gaToxic
03-18-2015, 08:25 PM
That's the story of one character who is a woman, just like Uncharted is the story of one man.

AC is an annual franchise with multiple protagonists - totally different.
Exactly to even say Tomb Raider needs a Male protagonist is crazy. That's what Uncharted is.

AssassinHMS
03-18-2015, 08:27 PM
Exactly to even say Tomb Raider needs a Male protagonist is crazy. That's what Uncharted is.

You're missing the point.

And AC needs a female protagonist?

Sushiglutton
03-18-2015, 08:34 PM
Yeah I think playing as a female gives a slightly different feel to the game, like Lara or Catwoman. So I wouldn't mind. AC also seems to have a lot of female fans, so it would make sense for that reason as well. This year's Victory seem to have a male protagonist though, maybe next year?

Shahkulu101
03-18-2015, 08:37 PM
What if Drake had a daughter and the next game followed her instead? After all, he isn’t getting any younger.
Same world, same gameplay…I’m pretty sure it would still be Uncharted. It’s not like the series’ called “Nathan Drake” or “Lara Croft”.

That would be a change from the norm, ultimately Uncharted and TR are the stories of Lara Croft and Nathan Drake - and each Uncharted title actually has Drake's name in the subtitle by the way. It makes logical sense that those games will stick with the same protagonist and ergo the same gender. In a series in which the identity of the protagonist changes frequently - requests for the gender of the protagonist to change make more sense than a hypothetical situation where people ask for TR to star a man and vice versa with UC.

Even ignoring that, Lara is one of the very few prominent female characters in gaming - while just about every game that comes out has a male protagonist. And before you say gender/race doesn't matter - yes it does, the perspective from which a story is told changes it drastically and to see more stories from diverse characters would enhance the medium.

Templar_Az
03-18-2015, 08:42 PM
I would also love a female Assassin who is like proper feminine, serves her targets food and then poisons them , probably sleeps with them then slits their throat, that kind of stuff,

I wouldn't want a female Assassin who just does everything the male does in the other games, that would just be pointless.

Hans684
03-18-2015, 08:44 PM
This year's Victory seem to have a male protagonist though, maybe next year?

Or the year after that or the year after that or the year after that or the year after that....

AssassinHMS
03-18-2015, 08:51 PM
That would be a change from the norm, ultimately Uncharted and TR are the stories of Lara Croft and Nathan Drake - and each Uncharted title actually has Drake's name in the subtitle by the way. It makes logical sense that those games will stick with the same protagonist and ergo the same gender. In a series in which the identity of the protagonist changes frequently - requests for the gender of the protagonist to change make more sense than a hypothetical situation where people ask for TR to star a man vice versa with UC.

Even ignoring that, Lara is one of the very few prominent female characters in gaming - while just about every game that comes out has a male protagonist. And before you say gender/race doesn't matter - yes it does, the perspective from which a story is told changes it drastically and to see more stories from diverse characters would enhance the medium.

Fine. Regardless, why would a “series in which the identity of the protagonist changes frequently” need a female or a male protagonist?



And I won’t say race/gender doesn’t matter, that’s up for each of us to decide, regardless of the impact they can have in the story.

Sushiglutton
03-18-2015, 08:58 PM
Or the year after that or the year after that or the year after that or the year after that....

It can probably be found somewhwere in that "The next 10-20 years of AC" document :D!

Shahkulu101
03-18-2015, 09:01 PM
Fine. Regardless, why would a “series in which the identity of the protagonist changes frequently” need a female or a male protagonist?



And I won’t say race/gender doesn’t matter, that’s up for each of us to decide, regardless of the impact they can have in the story.

It doesn't "need it", it would just make things more interesting in my opinion. If there's a lot of different protagonists in a series, and they're all men, then a female protagonist would be refreshing for the story. The fact the protagonist in AC changes frequently, gives Ubi the opportunity to change things up.

I'm not saying that games with male protagonists can't be refreshing in their stories, just that seeing a story from a female perspective would be one way to do that.

EmptyCrustacean
03-18-2015, 09:04 PM
I would also love a female Assassin who is like proper feminine, serves her targets food and then poisons them , probably sleeps with them then slits their throat, that kind of stuff,

I wouldn't want a female Assassin who just does everything the male does in the other games, that would just be pointless.

Can't tell you if you're joking or not.

Templar_Az
03-18-2015, 09:14 PM
Another idea from me, make the Assassin in history a male but the modern day counterpart a female. I honestly think that would be great.

AssassinHMS
03-18-2015, 09:25 PM
It doesn't "need it", it would just make things more interesting in my opinion. If there's a lot of different protagonists in a series, and they're all men, then a female protagonist would be refreshing for the story. The fact the protagonist in AC changes frequently, gives Ubi the opportunity to change things up.

I'm not saying that games with male protagonists can't be refreshing in their stories, just that seeing a story from a female perspective would be one way to do that.

Ok, now that I agree with (although I don't think I'd find the story to be any more interesting if the protagonist was a woman).
The only way I can think a female protagonist could add something different to the story, is if they suddenly start to focus on sexism.
Then again, there have been plenty of male protagonists and they still haven’t touched on that subject. Nothing about being forced to go to the battlefield or facing death sentence, etc.

Shahkulu101
03-18-2015, 09:40 PM
Ok, now that I agree with (although I don't think I'd find the story to be any more interesting if the protagonist was a woman).
The only way I can think a female protagonist could add something different to the story, is if they suddenly start to focus on sexism.
Then again, there have been plenty of male protagonists and they still haven’t touched on that subject. Nothing about being forced to go to the battlefield or facing death sentence, etc.

That's totally fine.

Agreed, and that's because that's not safe enough. Main characters are often depicted as invincible and flawless, seeing them in vulnerable situations that don't make them feel 'badass' is off-putting to people. Which is a shame, because we rarely get to see any semblance of a softer side in male characters because of that. Although it should be said, Connor actually bucks this trend.

Hans684
03-18-2015, 09:40 PM
It can probably be found somewhwere in that "The next 10-20 years of AC" document :D!

As concept art or possibly with a target footage where they brag about it's potential before being cancelled. Have I ever told you the definition of insanity?

RinoTheBouncer
03-18-2015, 09:44 PM
The only thing Assassin's Creed really "needs" is giving more importance to the lore, the over-arching story from modern day to first civ. to past loose ends and the connectivity between stories. That's what the franchise really needs more than anything. I couldn't care less about the gender of the protagonist. I'm a guy and I've been playing as Lara Croft, Claire Redfield, Jill Valentine and many others since 1997, and I don't feel weird doing so, because those were amazing characters and the games didn't just shove them in to prove they're not sexist, they just made amazing characters that we happened to love so much. So that's how I want it for AC.

If the lore, modern day, first civ. and over-arching story are bad or not well-made, neither the gender nor the race nor the sexuality of the protagonist nor the setting they're in nor the mechanics, graphics, multiplayer and side missions are gonna make the game any better for me.

M3gaToxic
03-18-2015, 09:53 PM
You're missing the point.

And AC needs a female protagonist?
It does. There is nothing to your point in all honesty. Tomb Raider has always been a female. Uncharted always male and honestly the male version of Tomb Raider. AC however should not be just one gender..I mean proof that it is not is Liberation but that wasn't a full AC game like I wish it was. I am not saying to stop having Male protagonists in AC just need some female ones as well. And you don't need to over sexualize them either. Look at Aveline for example...she is a beautiful woman with her assassin outfit and slave and lady outfits...and doesn't even show much cleavage or skin. So yeah AC needs a female protagonist...full AC game female protagonist.

M3gaToxic
03-18-2015, 09:54 PM
Yeah I think playing as a female gives a slightly different feel to the game, like Lara or Catwoman. So I wouldn't mind. AC also seems to have a lot of female fans, so it would make sense for that reason as well. This year's Victory seem to have a male protagonist though, maybe next year? Exactly this way female cosplayers can now have an Actual female assassin to dress as which would be cool for them. Though I have seen some good Edward and Connor female cosplayers.

The_Kiwi_
03-18-2015, 09:55 PM
Why does AC need a female protagonist?

pirate1802
03-18-2015, 09:56 PM
I would also love a female Assassin who is like proper feminine, serves her targets food and then poisons them , probably sleeps with them then slits their throat, that kind of stuff,

I wouldn't want a female Assassin who just does everything the male does in the other games, that would just be pointless.

Yes and her costume should be a flowery pink dress and when she walks she should sway her hips gently and assiduously...

M3gaToxic
03-18-2015, 10:01 PM
Why does AC need a female protagonist?
Because it would be a nice refresh in all honestly. So far it has really been all male. I want a females side as an assassin. Since Liberation wasn't a full AC game I don't count that as much. Also I read someone post that they want the female assassin to basically be like a housewife and I disagree with that. But yeah I feel AC "needs" a female protagonist.

M3gaToxic
03-18-2015, 10:03 PM
Yes and her costume should be a flowery pink dress and when she walks she should sway her hips gently and assiduously...
I hope you two are joking because saying stuff like that doesn't help anything. Aveline could beat both of you.

Templar_Az
03-18-2015, 10:04 PM
Yes and her costume should be a flowery pink dress and when she walks she should sway her hips gently and assiduously...

Use your damn brain before you take the mickey, since were playing in older times most women wore dresses, it would only make sense for a female assassin to do the same in order to BLEND in.

Now that I think about it our male protagonists always stood out of the crowd with their hooded attire.

SixKeys
03-18-2015, 10:12 PM
Because it would be a nice refresh in all honestly. So far it has really been all male. I want a females side as an assassin. Since Liberation wasn't a full AC game I don't count that as much. Also I read someone post that they want the female assassin to basically be like a housewife and I disagree with that. But yeah I feel AC "needs" a female protagonist.

Also historically there have been many fascinating women who stood out precisely because they broke traditional gender roles. There's so much potential for great stories there and it's baffling that the entertainment business isn't fighting each other for the rights to turn them into mass entertainment. They were so close with Mary Read and Anne Bonny in AC4, but then they cut out like half of their screen time.

Xstantin
03-18-2015, 10:13 PM
Why does AC need a female protagonist?

Yeah, "need" is a strong word here :rolleyes:

Shahkulu101
03-18-2015, 10:14 PM
Why does AC need a female protagonist?

It's all part of the feminists plan to attain world domination.

Assassin_M
03-18-2015, 10:15 PM
Also I read someone post that they want the female assassin to basically be like a housewife
Off-topic but had to say it. Nothing is wrong with house wives. It irks me when people bring up being a house wife as something "disgraceful" or "less". What makes being a politician any better? A businesswoman? My mother was a veterinarian. She left work to be a housewife and raise her kids. She made sandwiches, she woke us up for school, she prepared lunch and she washed the dishes. Nothing is wrong with being a housewife, so I suggest you don't bring it up negatively. It's just like idiotic politicians who claim to fight for women's freedom but go on and say that hijab and niqab have no place in western societies. Or western so called feminists who monopolized what it means to be a free woman.

Don't be like that, please.

pirate1802
03-18-2015, 10:16 PM
Use your damn brain before you take the mickey, since were playing in older times most women wore dresses, it would only make sense for a female assassin to do the same in order to BLEND in.

The things I mentioned would help her blend in dontcha think?

Why do I need to use my brain and what is a mickey?

AssassinHMS
03-18-2015, 10:19 PM
That's totally fine.

Agreed, and that's because that's not safe enough. Main characters are often depicted as invincible and flawless, seeing them in vulnerable situations that don't make them feel 'badass' is off-putting to people. Which is a shame, because we rarely get to see any semblance of a softer side in male characters because of that. Although it should be said, Connor actually bucks this trend.

Indeed. It’s this need for “badass” characters that is ruining both gameplay and story for me. I find vulnerability far more interesting.



It does. There is nothing to your point in all honesty.
Look, there is no NEED for a female protagonist unless you think that what AC needs is what you want it to need. The protagonist’s gender is irrelevant unless you choose to make it relevant (story focusing on the protagonist’s gender for example).
You created this thread because you want a female protagonist. Don’t pretend there is a “need” involved.

Templar_Az
03-18-2015, 10:25 PM
Off-topic but had to say it. Nothing is wrong with house wives. It irks me when people bring up being a house wife as something "disgraceful" or "less". What makes being a politician any better? A businesswoman? My mother was a veterinarian. She left work to be a housewife and raise her kids. She made sandwiches, she woke us up for school, she prepared lunch and she washed the dishes. Nothing is wrong with being a housewife, so I suggest you don't bring it up negatively. It's just like idiotic politicians who claim to fight for women's freedom but go on and say that hijab and niqab have no place in western societies. Or western so called feminists who monopolized what it means to be a free woman.

Don't be like that, please.

Maximum respect for you mate.

Anyway my last say on this topic is this: I honestly would not mind a female protagonist but I think the most important thing is that the storyline is good . If the storyline is crap then it doesn't matter what gender the protagonist is.

OwnedByOmar
03-18-2015, 11:02 PM
Lots of biases in this thread. Person I see who is pretty much correct on everything he is saying is Shahkulu101. Especially the point with the male/female gamers

M3gaToxic
03-18-2015, 11:26 PM
Off-topic but had to say it. Nothing is wrong with house wives. It irks me when people bring up being a house wife as something "disgraceful" or "less". What makes being a politician any better? A businesswoman? My mother was a veterinarian. She left work to be a housewife and raise her kids. She made sandwiches, she woke us up for school, she prepared lunch and she washed the dishes. Nothing is wrong with being a housewife, so I suggest you don't bring it up negatively. It's just like idiotic politicians who claim to fight for women's freedom but go on and say that hijab and niqab have no place in western societies. Or western so called feminists who monopolized what it means to be a free woman.

Don't be like that, please.
I didn't mean it like that just coming from the other comments that person made seemed like he was bashing women for that or something. But in a game I don't want to be doing that.

M3gaToxic
03-18-2015, 11:30 PM
Indeed. It’s this need for “badass” characters that is ruining both gameplay and story for me. I find vulnerability far more interesting.



Look, there is no NEED for a female protagonist unless you think that what AC needs is what you want it to need. The protagonist’s gender is irrelevant unless you choose to make it relevant (story focusing on the protagonist’s gender for example).
You created this thread because you want a female protagonist. Don’t pretend there is a “need” involved.

In all honesty I do feel like there is a NEED for a female protagonist. Again it would be a nice change and refreshing. I would love to see a story of a female Assassin...who eventually becomes a master assassin and/or even a Mentor. I am not trying t be all feminist rights and all. A female assassin can do pretty much of what a male assassin can and with more finesse. If I worked for Ubisoft I would definitely encourage the higher ups to consider a Female protagonist.

Namikaze_17
03-18-2015, 11:56 PM
^ You can merge your posts into one, dattebane.

AssassinHMS
03-19-2015, 12:11 AM
In all honesty I do feel like there is a NEED for a female protagonist.

Yeah, but either there’s a need or there isn’t.

"In all honesty I do feel like there is a need for a" = "I want a"


Fact of the matter is, male or female, it won’t impact the story or the gameplay unless the developers suddenly decide they want the protagonist’s gender to play a more important role, which would be new to the franchise.




Again it would be a nice change and refreshing.
Would be the same to me.

Mr.Black24
03-19-2015, 01:34 AM
I'm just tired of this damm sausage fest...

The_Kiwi_
03-19-2015, 01:52 AM
It's all part of the feminists plan to attain world domination.

Only men can rule the world, do they not know that? :rolleyes:

SixKeys
03-19-2015, 01:57 AM
Yeah, but either there’s a need or there isn’t.

"In all honesty I do feel like there is a need for a" = "I want a"


Fact of the matter is, male or female, it won’t impact the story or the gameplay unless the developers suddenly decide they want the protagonist’s gender to play a more important role, which would be new to the franchise.




Would be the same to me.

There is no "need" for AC to go back its roots and work on the core mechanics either, since the games are obviously selling well enough without it. Yet you keep claiming Ubi "needs" to do these things. It's almost like "need" is subjective when it comes to what people want from their games. :rolleyes:

M3gaToxic
03-19-2015, 02:04 AM
Yeah, but either there’s a need or there isn’t.

"In all honesty I do feel like there is a need for a" = "I want a"


Fact of the matter is, male or female, it won’t impact the story or the gameplay unless the developers suddenly decide they want the protagonist’s gender to play a more important role, which would be new to the franchise.




Would be the same to me.
Having a different gender would indeed impact the story, and it would be a nice change and refreshing since it has been all males. While the games have been great with the males...it really needs a change and add a female protagonist or two. It is just annoying these days in gaming because so many gamers (mostly male) are afraid having a female character in games. Which is crazy when games like Tomb Raider are done so well and in all honesty Remember me was also great and Mirrors edge. Again I game like Assassin's creed would be a great place for more female protagonists.

RinoTheBouncer
03-19-2015, 02:09 AM
Off-topic but had to say it. Nothing is wrong with house wives. It irks me when people bring up being a house wife as something "disgraceful" or "less". What makes being a politician any better? A businesswoman? My mother was a veterinarian. She left work to be a housewife and raise her kids. She made sandwiches, she woke us up for school, she prepared lunch and she washed the dishes. Nothing is wrong with being a housewife, so I suggest you don't bring it up negatively. It's just like idiotic politicians who claim to fight for women's freedom but go on and say that hijab and niqab have no place in western societies. Or western so called feminists who monopolized what it means to be a free woman.

Don't be like that, please.

http://images5.fanpop.com/image/photos/31200000/HG-the-hunger-games-31223220-400-300.jpg

Couldn't have said it myself. I don't understand why people look down on a housewife. My mom, like yours, did the same and she was neither "forced" by an "abusive" husband nor society, religion, insecurity or shame. She did that because she wanted it and she was happy about it. We grew up and she started working again because she enjoys it and wants something to fill her time..etc. I totally hate it when people make it sound like every housewife is a victim.

pirate1802
03-19-2015, 02:20 AM
There is no "need" for AC to go back its roots and work on the core mechanics either, since the games are obviously selling well enough without it.

http://www.quickmeme.com/img/58/58739dcfcdd82515f5f01aa85ded330aa224f06880931f2cb7 c5552d82373ba0.jpg


http://images5.fanpop.com/image/photos/31200000/HG-the-hunger-games-31223220-400-300.jpg

Is it risky to admit it this thread that I don't like Katniss one bit? :p

Anyway, I think what the person who said he didn't want a female assassin to be portrayed as a housewife was not that all housewives are slaves, but that being homely and familial is generally considered the norm for a woman; I think we can all agree to it. So, if someone wants to see a badass revolutionary female heroine, (like the guy wants probably), he would like to see someone who acts contrary to this status quo rather than reinforcing it. Which is not so say that there is anything wrong if someone chooses on their own to be a housewife, and indeed many do. It is just that when one imagines a kickass character, both male and female, the most striking image of him or her is someone going societal norms. I hope I'm able to articulate myself clearly, brethren M and Rino. By the way my mother is a housewife too, and she didn't have a choice in it. So you will understand if I take a rather dim view of this 'accepted' role for women..

Namikaze_17
03-19-2015, 03:14 AM
I'm just tired of this damm sausage fest...

I grow tired of this "need" for a steak...

M3gaToxic
03-19-2015, 03:24 AM
I grow tired of this "need" for a steak...

Well steak is better than sausage. Wait...you are talking about food right?

Also quick note...I am the OP of this thread just changed my profile name. Which happens to be my gamertag if anyone is interesting. I have been playing AC3 and AC4. (need some community chests and what not)

But alas back to the topic.

The_Kiwi_
03-19-2015, 04:05 AM
"Need" in this context refers to what AC needs to still claim the title AC
People can argue whether or not AC4 isn't AC, it's Pirates Creed
Or that Rogue is Templars Creed

But something that is undeniable is the fact that this series does not need women to still be able to call itself AC

pirate1802
03-19-2015, 04:14 AM
But ain't that subjective as well? To me AC IV was AC and so was Rogue. Clearly my idea of what a game needs to be in order to be an Ac game differs from others. :p

The_Kiwi_
03-19-2015, 04:35 AM
But ain't that subjective as well? To me AC IV was AC and so was Rogue. Clearly my idea of what a game needs to be in order to be an Ac game differs from others. :p

That's exactly my point
Things that make AC what it is are subjective
But the gender of the character is definitely not a defining trait of the game

Therefore, AC does not "need" female protagonists

M3gaToxic
03-19-2015, 06:18 AM
That's exactly my point
Things that make AC what it is are subjective
But the gender of the character is definitely not a defining trait of the game

Therefore, AC does not "need" female protagonists
Then it doesn't "need" male protagonists either.

The_Kiwi_
03-19-2015, 06:28 AM
Then it doesn't "need" male protagonists either.

Yes, indeed
No one ever claimed it did

Can't we just see a game with a male protagonist as nothing more than just a game with a male protagonist instead of a game without a female protagonist?

M3gaToxic
03-19-2015, 06:33 AM
Yes, indeed
No one ever claimed it did

Can't we just see a game with a male protagonist as nothing more than just a game with a male protagonist instead of a game without a female protagonist?Can't we just have a female protagonist in AC and no one complain about it? What is so wrong with having a female protagonist in AC?

AssassinHMS
03-19-2015, 07:01 AM
There is no "need" for AC to go back its roots and work on the core mechanics either, since the games are obviously selling well enough without it. Yet you keep claiming Ubi "needs" to do these things. It's almost like "need" is subjective when it comes to what people want from their games. :rolleyes:

Yeah, difference is, I always justify my claims.
Never have I stated that “AC needs to work on the core” without explaining why.

In his case, his “need” comes down to “personal desire”, mine does not. In truth, I couldn’t care less if AC ever works on the core, at this point.

Anyway, just in case you didn’t pay attention to those posts of mine you pretend you read, here’s the reason why I claimed Ubisoft needed to work on AC’s core mechanics:
In order to succeed, a franchise needs to be good at what it does while offering something unique. All that’s unique about AC has mostly died with AC1 or lives in the form of the historical tour (features like naval included). When another historical franchise appears, AC’s historical tour will no longer be unique. At that point, I think Ubisoft won’t have much choice. Either they bet on the historical tour and make those features the core of the series or they return to the roots, make sure they deliver a very solid combination of stealth/parkour/combat and work on AC1’s unique features (like investigations).
See, AC started out as an Assassin Simulator but the absence of historical games led AC into another path. Since AC1, the series forgot and abandoned its roots to satisfy this particular market’s need. Until AC4, the historical part became stronger and more prevalent while the core stayed weak and neglected. But AC doesn’t need to be good at what it does as long as there are no competitors in this area and as long as the market only has AC to go to when they want a historical tour. But this will only work for so long. As soon as competition shows up (and it will), AC will have to go back and start working on its forgotten foundation or abandon it entirely and delve into another genre entirely.
Anyhow, they must make sure they deliver gameplay that can’t be matched by competitors. Also, turning the franchise into a full blown historical tour would be much harder than simply going back to the roots and improving what has been there all along since the start: Investigations (where the player really gets to plan the assassination’s details); social stealth (where NPCs react realistically to the Assassin’s actions and blending in a crowd is a tense and unpredictable experience); etc.
These are just a couple of AC’s forgotten strengths. They provide a unique experience that no other game or franchise can copy. Making the best and most realistic Assassin simulator is something no other company can recreate and that would make sure AC games would sell regardless of competition.
That’s why I used to say AC needed to work on the core and such.

Now, does AC need a female protagonist? Thankfully not.





http://www.quickmeme.com/img/58/58739dcfcdd82515f5f01aa85ded330aa224f06880931f2cb7 c5552d82373ba0.jpg



Lol...where did you even come from?







Can't we just have a female protagonist in AC and no one complain about it? What is so wrong with having a female protagonist in AC?

No one's complaining about having a female protagonist though...

The_Kiwi_
03-19-2015, 07:11 AM
No one's complaining about having a female protagonist though...

Exactly
Don't know why he/she made that comment

itsamea-mario
03-19-2015, 07:41 AM
Pervert.

HiddenKiller612
03-19-2015, 07:54 AM
Personally I'd love to play an AC game as Joan of Arc.....

pirate1802
03-19-2015, 11:00 AM
Lol...where did you even come from?.

From where everyone else came from I suppose..

Sushiglutton
03-19-2015, 11:48 AM
Wow, people sure like to discuss the word "need" OP used. Think it's kind of a trivial point. If you use a bit of good will it's clear what OP means (wants). Both sides are stating the obvious in a more and more angry tone, which is standard internet discussion and always amusing ofc :p.

pirate1802
03-19-2015, 11:51 AM
amusing :p.

You heartless person.

Sushiglutton
03-19-2015, 11:59 AM
You heartless person.

WHAT DO YOU MEAN HEARTLESS??? HOW COULD I LIVE I DIDN'T HAVE A HEART???????? MORON :mad:!

pirate1802
03-19-2015, 12:36 PM
WHAT DO YOU MEAN HEARTLESS??? HOW COULD I LIVE I DIDN'T HAVE A HEART???????? MORON :mad:!

artificial hearts.

Mr_Shade
03-19-2015, 12:38 PM
Back on topic please...

TheHumanTowel
03-19-2015, 01:04 PM
Wow, people sure like to discuss the word "need" OP used. Think it's kind of a trivial point. If you use a bit of good will it's clear what OP means (wants). Both sides are stating the obvious in a more and more angry tone, which is standard internet discussion and always amusing ofc :p.
Yeah people will always find something to object to and complain about in topics like this while still going "I don't care about the protagonist's gender but...". Funny how people get so sensitive about the sanctity of Ubisoft's artistic vision to not have a female protagonist while also demanding change in every other aspect of the game.

pirate1802
03-19-2015, 01:28 PM
Funny how people get so sensitive about the sanctity of Ubisoft's artistic vision to not have a female protagonist while also demanding change in every other aspect of the game.

http://cdn.meme.am/instances/51054045.jpg

SixKeys
03-19-2015, 03:16 PM
Yeah people will always find something to object to and complain about in topics like this while still going "I don't care about the protagonist's gender but...". Funny how people get so sensitive about the sanctity of Ubisoft's artistic vision to not have a female protagonist while also demanding change in every other aspect of the game.

http://kidsandmedia.co.uk/images/products/colourbox/facebook-like-small.jpg

Mr.Black24
03-19-2015, 06:54 PM
I grow tired of this "need" for a steak...

Just because a small portion like yourself like eating sausage every day, doesn't mean a big chunk of the other fandom likes it too. We can get sick of eating the same damm thing. Like do you really want sausage everyday, or would you like to order pizza or chinese food from time to time?

For a large fraction of us, a break from the usual is always needed.

Yeah people will always find something to object to and complain about in topics like this while still going "I don't care about the protagonist's gender but...". Funny how people get so sensitive about the sanctity of Ubisoft's artistic vision to not have a female protagonist while also demanding change in every other aspect of the game. Exactly!!!!!!!!!

How is it that people demand a better storyline and gameplay, but if a number of us wants a female protagonist as something new and refreshing aspect of the series, its considered unnecessary? I mean Ubisoft said so themselves that they are all about evolving and innovation, yet having something new as a female protagonist is not needed as a new change?

RADAR__4077
03-19-2015, 07:16 PM
Just because a small portion like yourself like eating sausage every day, doesn't mean a big chunk of the other fandom likes it too. We can get sick of eating the same damm thing. Like do you really want sausage everyday, or would you like to order pizza or chinese food from time to time?

For a large fraction of us, a break from the usual is always needed.
Exactly!!!!!!!!!

How is it that people demand a better storyline and gameplay, but if a number of us wants a female protagonist as something new and refreshing aspect of the series, its considered unnecessary? I mean Ubisoft said so themselves that they are all about evolving and innovation, yet having something new as a female protagonist is not needed as a new change?


I have said that I want a better story. A female protagonist is not a REQUIREMENT to achieve that.

If they do make one, great. Having a female will not automatically make a game good, just as another male will not automatically make it bad.

As long as the end result is good I am happy.

I do not want a character to be made just to say "look we have one"

I'll use Marvel's "Agent Carter" as an example.

I was not able to watch the entire mini series because of work, but I watched a few episodes.

Overall, it appears to have a good entertaining story. However, they distract from this and sour the experience a bit by forcing the "oppressed women" theme into nearly every scene.

Yes, women did not hold the same position in society in the 40s, it would be stupid to ignore this. BUT when that becomes the main focus, it actually subtracts from the rest of the story.

Mr.Black24
03-19-2015, 08:14 PM
I have said that I want a better story. A female protagonist is not a REQUIREMENT to achieve that.

If they do make one, great. Having a female will not automatically make a game good, just as another male will not automatically make it bad.

As long as the end result is good I am happy.

I do not want a character to be made just to say "look we have one"

I'll use Marvel's "Agent Carter" as an example.

I was not able to watch the entire mini series because of work, but I watched a few episodes.

Overall, it appears to have a good entertaining story. However, they distract from this and sour the experience a bit by forcing the "oppressed women" theme into nearly every scene.

Yes, women did not hold the same position in society in the 40s, it would be stupid to ignore this. BUT when that becomes the main focus, it actually subtracts from the rest of the story. But thats the thing. Sexism was a huge thing that took hold in the 40s, women of all walks in life were always faced by this. It was because of this that women had much of a harder time to move up in society. Every man expected women to be the obedient type, that just how it ways. Thats like saying that the slavery aspect in Freedom Cry subtracts the rest of the story, when its a big factor in in the game, an equal focus next for the hunt of the Box, especially since our main Assassin was a former slave who also risked capture by slavers. After all we had slavers looking out for us in the game, and no player has ever avoided fighting those guys, ever.

I do not want a character to be made just to say "look we have one"

No one wants a female character just the sake of one. The argument here is that "Why can't we have one for the next game?", something fresh, something new, after all the games are about fresh experiences after all, as Ubisoft states multiple times, and people instead are going, "Why should we?" they question this as if its a bad thing, and that is the issue. Why are people against the argument? If you really aren't against it, then why speak up against it then? Its like the Unity Females are to hard to animate debacle. The devs made a lame excuse that they are hard to animate, yet I seen the women walk and run in Unity just fine, so did Aveline in Liberation. Why not combine those animation sequences, tweak them just a bit, and have female assassins along side you? To make up for that, they put up that, "Everyone is Arno" shield that just stopped everyone in their tracks. Good save I admit, but still a lame excuse.

I mean people go, "Change the combat, its too simple." Everyone agreed, and when its changed everything is fine. But say, "Change the male into female, we want a new storyline on a new perspective", and everyone gets into a fit, saying that it hurts "Creative Vision". Here is some new flash for ya, its not "Creative Vision" if we get more white male protagonist with a vengeance vendetta when we have plenty of the same in other videogame franchises.

Plus, alongside gameplay, its the lore that is the greatest strength of Assassin's Creed, its a story franchise, one of diverse people and historical time periods, but somehow having a female is not diverse and won't make an interesting change because........????

EmptyCrustacean
03-19-2015, 08:26 PM
I have said that I want a better story. A female protagonist is not a REQUIREMENT to achieve that.

If they do make one, great. Having a female will not automatically make a game good, just as another male will not automatically make it bad.

As long as the end result is good I am happy.

I do not want a character to be made just to say "look we have one"

I'll use Marvel's "Agent Carter" as an example.

I was not able to watch the entire mini series because of work, but I watched a few episodes.

Overall, it appears to have a good entertaining story. However, they distract from this and sour the experience a bit by forcing the "oppressed women" theme into nearly every scene.

Yes, women did not hold the same position in society in the 40s, it would be stupid to ignore this. BUT when that becomes the main focus, it actually subtracts from the rest of the story.

Of course it factored into every scene - she was the protagonist! That means we were made to view life through her eyes and that would have been the everyday reality for Peggy and women back then. Just seems like you didn't like it because it made you feel uncomfortable but that's your problem. If the story was told from Howard Stark's perspective I'm sure his view of society would have been quite different.

RADAR__4077
03-19-2015, 08:46 PM
All I'm saying is that unless time is actually put into the story, the character won't make a difference.

A black lesbian assassin will not make the game any better if it's just another vendetta story with no MD and no connection with the rest of the series.

A female would be an interesting change, but it will not magically make an amazing story.

There is no reason not to have a female, but everyone seems convinced that it will somehow make everything better all on it's own.

As for the Agent Carter thing. Sexism in the 40s was an important part of the story, but they went overboard. Especially when Carter would hear this overly dramatic damsel in distress on a radio show, then roll her eyes or turn off the radio in disgust multiple times in an episode. It just got annoying.

Again I do not want to be too heavily involved in this debate. I just chimed in because this has been at the top of the forums for a while and has 19 pages.

I think everyone should just respect each others opinions and move on. No sense in continuing this argument that is just going in circles.

M3gaToxic
03-19-2015, 08:47 PM
I believe having a female protagonist will make a very good change also would be refreshing as has been mentioned. I also feel they (Ubisoft) could make a great story out of having a female. In all honesty (and I think I said this) but I do really feel AC needs a change in protagonist. While Male is fine and some of the stories have been pretty good, it is just getting stale. Like every new Assassin's Creed game is always a male...with pretty much the same story. Lets get a Female Assassin (excluding Aveline since her game wasn't very long) for a nice refreshing change.

x.Angel.x
03-20-2015, 08:19 PM
Having a female protagonist would be a refresing change indeed, but that doesn't mean will be better... a male protagonist could be still a good choice as long as they dont try to make a cooler version of Ezio everytime and taking the time they needed to do the game as they intended without rush. But sorry i missing the topic here.

Furthermore as I recall an AC game with a female protagonist (Shao Jun) is on the way, is it not? assassins creed chronicles although I really dont know if it's a game or a dlc since is in 2D, but it has a female protagonist so maybe is just a matter of time until we got a fully game with a with a femele assassins or hey why not! a female templar? (since Elise was a very good character, even IMO better than Arno), just saying Ubi maybe still waiting the right time in the history for that to happend.

This is my POV =)

Xstantin
03-20-2015, 08:36 PM
a male protagonist could be still a good choice as long as they dont try to make a cooler version of Ezio everytime


Tbh I wouldn't blame them for trying to make a cooler version of Ezio everytime. Money, general reception, all that obvious stuff

Mr.Black24
03-20-2015, 10:11 PM
Tbh I wouldn't blame them for trying to make a cooler version of Ezio everytime. Money, general reception, all that obvious stuff But they should bust that "Ezio is da Best" type of thinking. I mean he is cool and all, but people have to understand that there are other characters just as good. We just can't have multiple Ezio like characters, it just sours things.

Shahkulu101
03-20-2015, 10:15 PM
But they should bust that "Ezio is da Best" type of thinking. I mean he is cool and all, but people have to understand that there are other characters just as good. We just can't have multiple Ezio like characters, it just sours things.

We've had 2 'Ezio's' - I think people are really exaggerating when they say they make every character like that. Edward seemed to be at first, but we can all see he's nothing like Ezio having played the game.

So we have one character who is similar to Ezio. Why all the drama?

Mr.Black24
03-20-2015, 10:18 PM
We've had 2 'Ezio's' - I think people are really exaggerating when they say they make every character Ezio. Edward seemed like that at first, but we can all see he's nothing like Ezio.

So we have one character who is similar to Ezio. Why all the drama?I'm simply stating that Ubi should stay away from that method, if they ever thought about it that is. Plus it really irks me that complex characters like Altair and Connor gets dissed just for not being funny, having human flaws, and ya know, acting like an actual human being.

M3gaToxic
03-20-2015, 10:47 PM
Tbh I wouldn't blame them for trying to make a cooler version of Ezio everytime. Money, general reception, all that obvious stuff
Hey they could make a Female Assassin who is cooler or as cool as Ezio. While Ezio is cool...I would rather hang out with Connor and have him be my Mentor.