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View Full Version : BF-109 can't outside loop?



XyZspineZyX
09-22-2003, 12:32 PM
Lol was flying around and tried an outside loop (with wingtip smoke of course) in a 109. I managed to get it vertical, but it's nose just wouldn't come around. Ended up being a hammerhead lol.

XyZspineZyX
09-22-2003, 12:32 PM
Lol was flying around and tried an outside loop (with wingtip smoke of course) in a 109. I managed to get it vertical, but it's nose just wouldn't come around. Ended up being a hammerhead lol.

XyZspineZyX
09-22-2003, 12:39 PM
Could you explain what the outside loop is?

XyZspineZyX
09-22-2003, 12:40 PM
It's when you loop by pushing forward on the stick instead of back.

A great exploit at high speeds, as red out you can still see and not loose control.

<img src=http://lafayettefederation.com/screenshots/repository/turo/tn-Numbaone.jpg>
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XyZspineZyX
09-22-2003, 06:40 PM
RayBanJockey answered it it's a negative G loop. It's typically very straining on both the aircraft, and the pilot. It was also one of the last to be achieved air stunts. While 6 positive G's hurts, 3 negative G's makes blood vessels in your eye's burst. Is also bad for the brain. Also most aircraft are design for example to achieve 6+ G's, and 4- G's. The 4- being a safety factor as anything over is potentially fatal. It's like playing russian roulette by yourself.

Anyway I was doing 560 when I leveled out from my dive, and began the loop. Was watching from external view trying to make it look nice lol. Anyway she was going 90 degree's straight up with the nose pointed back from vertical. Eventually speed bled off and she dropped.

XyZspineZyX
09-22-2003, 07:37 PM
you got it http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-22-2003, 08:23 PM
Damn I bet that gives a hell of a headache...

XyZspineZyX
09-22-2003, 08:58 PM
Guys it`s not that bad in RL just keep the speed up!

3 to 4 neg.G`s are hard but your eyes don`t pop out!!
LOL

Here some info for you, last I heard was that Joann Osterud holds the current outside loop record something like 150+ outside loops in a row.

http://airraceaddict.tripod.com/airshowpg2.html

~S~

XyZspineZyX
09-22-2003, 09:05 PM
The flight model won't let you do a negative G loop for some reason.... !?! Tried before.

XyZspineZyX
09-22-2003, 09:11 PM
I use to do them all the time in 109's. I haven't tried one with the new patch though. They porked that too?

You red out pretty bad doing them though.

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XyZspineZyX
09-22-2003, 09:17 PM
Yes, no imperative elevators response now. So this was porked too.

XyZspineZyX
09-22-2003, 09:27 PM
A very difficult maneuver. Are we sure the 109 could do it in RL?

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XyZspineZyX
09-22-2003, 11:27 PM
Since I use the RBJ shift, I can't do these. (it's a tradeoff) So if anyone is fighting me and wants to get away, this would be a good move.

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"The Force is strong with this one." -What an ace said of RayBanJockey during a fight when he was still a newbie.
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XyZspineZyX
09-22-2003, 11:29 PM
you go online RBJ? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

/m

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XyZspineZyX
09-22-2003, 11:34 PM
I believe the real BF-109 had stops which prevented imputting too much down elevator. I don't think it's wings were designed to take much stress in the negative.

I've also found that with combat flaps 110% power at 170mph the BF-109 will do a half a turn 180 degree's on a dime before stalling. It hates to barrel roll, and snaps almost every time.
It has great spin recovery though, and I've learned a new trick for "Slamming the breaks". Chop power, full flaps, and gear down. Full right aileron, up elevator, and right rudder. Into a controlled snap sustain until airspeed bleeds down to 170. Then recover this would make any aircraft in pursuit at above 300mph overshoot you.
Recovers in 1/2 a rotation. Proper timing will bring it back to any atitude you want.

XyZspineZyX
09-23-2003, 12:00 AM
try doing it from 5000m in QMB. drop power to 50%, wait till you are climbing back up before you go onto full power.

I did it in a K4, haven't tried any other 109's

If anyone wants the track, PM me, can't host it unfortunately.



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Message Edited on 09/23/0312:04AM by JZG_Winter

XyZspineZyX
09-23-2003, 01:49 AM
Hopperfly22 wrote:
- While 6 positive G's hurts, 3
- negative G's makes blood vessels in your eye's
- burst. Is also bad for the brain. Also most
- aircraft are design for example to achieve 6+ G's,
- and 4- G's. The 4- being a safety factor as
- anything over is potentially fatal. It's like
- playing russian roulette by yourself.


Thats total bs....

I seen some testing that Nasa did emulating negative G & they could do way more than -6G with no problem...

They were firing the guy down a traintrack on a rocket powered craft & using Magnetic brakes to stop him ultra fast I forget the ammount of negative G but it was realy up there he did many tests & didnt have any problems like dying lol or eyes falling out of his head Im sure it wasent plesant at all but it was way more than -6G's

Im sure someone else has seen it as well...


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XyZspineZyX
09-23-2003, 02:01 AM
Yeah I`ve seen that on TV set a record for something like 20+ neg. G`s.

His retina`s detached from the back of his eyes! But he survived and could see again after sometime.

Sean Tucker I know pulls 8+ neg` G`s all the time in his airshow performances.

~S~

XyZspineZyX
09-23-2003, 02:15 AM
.. a lot of early fast jets apparently needed to invert even for simple manouvres like dropping into a river valley from the heights above as the negative G at speed could exceed airframe specs

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XyZspineZyX
09-23-2003, 02:15 AM
Ever watch Patty Wagstaff in her Extra 300? Her hair stands out straight, but her eyes are fine.

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XyZspineZyX
09-23-2003, 02:20 AM
Thats not the only thing that STANDS OUT!!!!!!

OR UP!!!!!!!!!!!!

LMAO

XyZspineZyX
09-23-2003, 03:21 AM
Well a lot of it's time related. Like Patty Wagstaff manages in certain manuevers to pull up to 12 G's positive. But it's only for a fraction of a second.
In WWII naval dive bombers were dying from failing to recover after their diving runs. It was found that at their 6 G pull out they were sometimes depending on the person blacking out.

Also while most people in good shape may be able to survive 6 G's negative. At 3 G's negtive blood vessels in your eye's can burst. It's nothing major just makes your eye's look funny for awhile.
Yet beyond that blood vessels in your brain can burst. It's not certain thing that yes or no they will or won't. Needless to say blacking out is nothing major considering bursting a blood vessel in your brain.

I'm shocked a guy survive 20 G's positive. How long did he stay in the hospital afterwards? I doubt he was controlling anything at the time. Kind of like putting a cat in a pillow case, an swinging them around really fast.
People have survived free falls from 3,000 feet and up, but I wouldn't credit that as a human ability. Pressure suit or not though 6 G's negative is all you can take for more than a second. A person can take more with a pressure belt though which keeps the blood down vs up.

WWII pilots neither had pressure suits or pressure belts. I doubt they pulled many negative G's either as there's not much need too other than airshow purposes. 6 G's positive hurts, 6 G's negative really friggin stinks.
There are also test modern fighter pilot's go through to insure they can withstand it though. For one we now have a way of measuring a person's eye pressure. A person with low eye pressure will definitely cause damage at high negative G's. They also can't wear contact lenses.

Also modern fighter pilot's aren't supposed to pull any negative G's, and modern fighter systems won't allow them to pull them. Or push them relatively speaking. I know from flying the Marin Corp F-18 simulator at the NAS in New Orleans. You can jam that stick forward all day long, and you'll get no more than -1 G out of the aircraft.
BF-109 pilots pulled a few negative G's only long enough to get their nose over.

Basically a person can withstand 12 G's positive, and 6 G's negative. That's with the proper equipment, in great physical shape, and for limited amounts of time also in the proper seating position.

None of which existed in WWII including seat position. They also lacked modern physical conditioning. Example in an extremely reclined position astronauts experience a 12 G climb out on blast off. They're simply along for the ride though on take off. Modern fighter jet seats are also reclined for the same reason.

Also a decceleration injury can happen in reverse for sudden increase in G force's. Call it an acceleration injury as thats what it is.

Even the Stuka which had a 6 G pullout from it's dive was autmated. Thuse the aircraft pulled out whether the pilot was awake or not. He guided the aircraft to target, the bomb dropped automatically, and the hydraulics kicked in pulling him out of the dive. Without that a high percentage of them would have dove into the target without recovering.

XyZspineZyX
09-23-2003, 04:56 AM
Ugh.... I don't have time right now, but I'll get back. Shuttle astronauts pull 3 G's on t/o
There was a rocket sled test where a guy pulled 80 G's for a fraction of a second, he holds the record I believe.
G's are very much dependent on attitude (upright, laying back) and duration. Any "modern" monoplane should be able to outside loop, but it might take some throttle nudging and other factors, like how u approach the start of the loop, level, diving, etc. It wont be a round loop, it'll be much more narrower at the apex than a regular loop. The dihedral (differance of the angle of the wings to horizontal) makes the 109 more stable during normal and pos G loading, but makes it harder in the neg range.

Good hunting,
Cajun76

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."
-Aristotle

XyZspineZyX
09-23-2003, 05:26 AM
I read they reached 12 G's on lift off. Maybe that was for the older solo rockets that simply went into orbit?

80 G's I'll never believe that figure. A 150lb man doing 80 G's even for a split second would be like suddenly having 6 tons of weight mashed onto his body.
Your brain would mash inside your skull, and your blood would literally run out of your skin. Veins would burst, and you would be flattened.

G's stand for gravity you know. 1 G = standing on the ground. 2 G's two times the force of gravity. At 2 G's a 150lb man feels like he weighs 300lbs. At 3 G's 450lbs. 4 G's 600lbs. So on and so fourth. It's simple math.

I've pulled 5 G's once. It was neither thrilling nor fun, and I would only repeat it for profit, or necessity. Of course I've also flown inverted in a Cessna 152. I also would not fly with that pilot ever again considering a Cessna 152 has a gravity fuel feed. Thus inverted it gets no gas, and the motor stops shortly.

I admit when I'm off on something. Many people can do amazing things. Patty Wagstaff is nothing short of an amazing pilot. Other pilots even of her caliber would not attempt the manuevers she does. I'm sure she has suffered physical damage from her acrobatic's as well. Just like old fighter pilots, and old football players. They hit a point where it hurts to get up in the mornings. They did some amazing things not everyone gets to do, but paid a large price.

Some exceptions exist like Chuck Yeager he was an anomoly. Not only was he a great aviator, but he also flew aircraft to the limit right up until his death. Most fighter pilots or acrobatic pilots cannot take the abuse that long.

Personnaly if I was flying with somebody who said hey let's do some negative G's I would knock them out, and land. Right up to 3 - G's is ok, but you can feel the pressure. Anything past that is going to get rough.

I even find it hard to believe someone withstood 20 G's. Especially the way it was described. Can you say major decceleration injuries? Detached retina's were probably the least of his problems. It's also more of a hair brained "can I survive?" stunt rather than anything related to flight. Go ask Patty Wagstaff if she would like to pull 20 G's. She'd probably say your nuts.

There's a big difference between what I can do. What I can survive, and what does bodily damage.

I personnally believe the reason Patty Wagstaff is cable of pulling such high G's in the very short time period in which she pulls them, and most of them have an immediate reversal. Thus she goes from 8 or 9 negative to 12 positive, and then back in her extreme maneuvers.

Ever listen to sound, and watched video footage of a fighter pilot pulling 9 G's? Sounds like he's trying to poop out a elephant. Just a lot of very painfull sounding grunting, and groaning. Straining every muscle he's got inside a full body pressure suit to maintain controll of the aircraft, and not black out.

XyZspineZyX
09-23-2003, 05:53 AM
First of all, I must say that Chuck Yeager is far from dead. And was that an Aerobat or just a plain vanilla 152? (BTW, the fuel flow isnt the big issue really, roll upright and it flows once again and all is well, even the aerobat has a gravity fuel system, and it doesnt have inverted oil either)

Many aerobatic pilots pulls the big G's in both plus and minus, and while conditioning and natural physiology play a large part, duration of the peak values are limited to usually a few seconds. Some hold them longer than others. Incidentally, I have found that going from - to + G's is far more difficult than when remaining in one side of the envelope. Many pilots that I know have been performing unlimited class aerobatics for thousands of hours over many decades, and I never heard them mention any peculiar issues popping up as a result of this, and even after they retire many still fly pulling most of the same G's as they did when they had an audience. I myself am still relatively young and with comparatively few hours of aerobatics under my belt, but there is nothing more exhilarating and exciting or peaceful and serene than aerobatics (depending on the G load your pulling ;-)

I don't like much past -3 though unless its over really quick, but I am told I will grow accustomed to it when I can afford ($) to do it more consistently. One thing is for sure, it is an amazing workout when you consider that you are more or less stationary.

Most all the big names in airshows pull up to +12G and -8G for short periods of time. Sustained G loadings of +5/-3 can be quite difficult to handle though for even people accustomed to this type of flying because your means for coping only delay onset of blackout/redout by restricting blood flow pooling (but you can't stop it).

If all of this talk about G's has anyone wanting to see what -10G's might look like, take a look at this video of my buddy
Kirby Chambliss:

http://www.chamblissaerobatics.com/media/kirby1.wmv

EDIT: oh, and yeah, the 109 can outside loop but its gonna take the right setup and it will be one big outside loop with minimal airspeed over the top. (many aircraft do not have very much negative elevator authority when compared to their power to weight ratio, so entry speed is critical)



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Message Edited on 09/22/0309:22PM by TX-EcoDragon

XyZspineZyX
09-23-2003, 06:01 AM
Yeager???????????????????????
C-152!!!!!

Not even worth it now!!!!!!!!!

RTFOALMFAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!

XyZspineZyX
09-23-2003, 06:12 AM
You want some wicked outside loops? Take the BI-1 rocket up and get your speed over 700something and watch that nose plummet. Trim full nose down and you can loop and loop and loop and loop......It's a great escape maneuver if you get caught up high./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

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Message Edited on 09/23/0301:26AM by SlickStick

XyZspineZyX
09-23-2003, 06:15 AM
I wouldn't think MOST planes could do an outside loop. Maybe the superlight Yaks, maybe the Rats, but the others? Nah.

XyZspineZyX
09-23-2003, 09:28 AM
This is all getting off subject, (BTW, try doing an outside loop in a Rata, and tell me how you'll feed your engine fuel... /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif )

http://www.spacefame.org/stapp.html

I remembered it wrong, it was 40 G's.... Col. Stapp volunterred to do this, because it was so dangerous....

It shouldn't matter how heavy the a/c is, its power to weight that determines that sort of thing. Now of course, an aerobatic plane will be small and light because of inertia and changing direction quickly, but a heavy a/c with good P to W should do just as well in a stable, controlled maneuver like a O/L,

(Just tried it with a Jug, 190A9, and 109G/AS and F4) They all could, but the 109 takes more work. All settings that matter were on except blackout. Get about 5K in QMB. Throttle up, WEP and invert into a shallow dive. Hit 850+ at around 500 to 1000 meters and shove forward. Watch your artifical horizon to keep level, and you should be hitting the top at about 300 to 400. Keep pushing, and she'll nose over at around 150 to 200, torque rolling slightly, use ailerons to counter.

Good hunting,
Cajun76

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."
-Aristotle

XyZspineZyX
09-23-2003, 10:04 AM
Geeze there is alot of misinformation here. The most obvious first:

1) WWII fighter pilots did start wearing pressure suits (at least Americans in Western front) late in the war.

2) Chuck Yeager is not dead

XyZspineZyX
09-23-2003, 10:27 AM
Are you speaking as he's not gone in spirit or are you trying to tell me he's still breathing in air?
While his legend may live on his body is gone.

Yes they started wearing pressure belts when US Navy Dive Bomber started crashing from blacking out. It wasn't a suit in any form to my knowledge. More like an iflatable belt that squeezed their guts trying to keep all the blood from running to their legs. It also helped on the negative side also.

To answer another question it wasn't an acrobat. It was a plain jain rinky **** Cessna 152.

I'll admitt if I could pull 6 positive G's in my own plane I probably would enjoy doing acro. It sucks being along for the ride though.

I would love to find some info on the pulling 40 G's. Mainly how they went about inflicting the 40 G's.

XyZspineZyX
09-23-2003, 10:52 AM
Roger that Hopp

Most of the tests were done by people in great physical shape and they had pressure suits on wich made the differance...


your more than likley right in your views id still say that we should be able to do a outside loop in a 109 tho...

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XyZspineZyX
09-23-2003, 05:58 PM
Audience, don't try this at home!! At least never try it in an average real life Cessn or Piper. Or any other non-aerobatic rated general aviation plane. The FFA mandates that the wings of most everday planes can take at least 1.6 negative G's and that's about all the manufacturers certify them for!! 1.6 G's is not very much, so you can snap off the wing/s very easily. When I fly, I try not to even push forward on the stick very hard at all in a C-172, prefering instead just to chop the throttle if I want to point her downward. I value my life too much!!

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin - 1755

XyZspineZyX
09-23-2003, 07:50 PM
heh

http://www.chuckyeager.com/

click on "appearances" maybe they should re-name this "sightings" like elvis. . .or perhaps "seance" is the most appropriate???? hehehhehehe


Dude. . Yeager isn't dead. ..

S!
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XyZspineZyX
09-23-2003, 07:52 PM
but I guess there is some missinformation out there:
http://www.fortunecity.com/rivendell/chronos/439/gazette/0803_bod.html


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S!
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