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johann63
04-06-2004, 11:49 AM
That Oleg will make it fly just like the P-47D27

Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

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johann63
04-06-2004, 11:49 AM
That Oleg will make it fly just like the P-47D27

Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

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heywooood
04-06-2004, 12:07 PM
You just guaranteed it http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

TgD Thunderbolt56
04-06-2004, 12:12 PM
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crazyivan1970
04-06-2004, 12:23 PM
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V!
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PraetorHonoris
04-06-2004, 01:07 PM
Well, the Zero rolls like a b17 already... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

lbhskier37
04-06-2004, 01:16 PM
pretty sure it will be modeled accurately kinda like the P47

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BlitzPig_DDT
04-06-2004, 01:19 PM
It was used to G/A Johann. It wouldn't be a big stretch to see that perverted into "G/A only" again, like with the P-47.

The real question is, what did the soviets think about it? I'm not sure if they had an opinion, but I don't think it was likely to have been up for L/L discussion, and so probably not tested by them, like the Jug, so it might be a bit less likely to be hosed as badly.

Real shame too because a few patches back it was ok. Each succesive patch robs dive and zoom from it though.

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JG7_Rall
04-06-2004, 01:32 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PraetorHonoris:
Well, the Zero rolls like a b17 already... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Or maybe the B17 rolls like the zero? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

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VMF-214_HaVoK
04-06-2004, 02:27 PM
As long as its the P-47D10 I can live with that http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

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PraetorHonoris
04-06-2004, 02:28 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JG7_Rall:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PraetorHonoris:
Well, the Zero rolls like a b17 already... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Or maybe the B17 rolls like the zero? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

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_"Son, never ask a man if he is a fighter pilot. If he is, he'll let you know. If he isn't, don't embarrass him."_
Badges!? We don't needs no stinkin' badges!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

sure, and .50cal can take out a PzKw VI... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

forget it... a useless discussion, I did not want to start.


Serious: Why should a Corsair fly like a Thunderbold?

johann63
04-06-2004, 04:29 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PraetorHonoris:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JG7_Rall:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PraetorHonoris:
Well, the Zero rolls like a b17 already... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Or maybe the B17 rolls like the zero? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

http://home.comcast.net/~nate.r/357AndersonandYeager.jpg
_"Son, never ask a man if he is a fighter pilot. If he is, he'll let you know. If he isn't, don't embarrass him."_
Badges!? We don't needs no stinkin' badges!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

sure, and .50cal can take out a PzKw VI... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

forget it... a useless discussion, I did not want to start.


...Serious: Why should a Corsair fly like a Thunderbold?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


I dont know why a Corsair should fly like a Thunderbolt, honestly I dont really know too well how they compare in real world.

All I know is that FB has this big, beautiful US radial fighter called the P-47 and it performs like my 1988 volvo sedan, with low tire pressure. I just hope this doesnt set a precedent for big, beautiful US radial fighters.

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LuftLuver
04-06-2004, 04:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lbhskier37:
pretty sure it will be modeled accurately kinda like the P47 <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You have abo****ely, positively GOT to be joking. You must enjoy your opponents being falsely disabled. Strafe any Willys Jeeps lately? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif

johann63
04-06-2004, 04:54 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LuftLuver:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lbhskier37:
pretty sure it will be modeled accurately kinda like the P47 <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You have abo****ely, positively GOT to be joking. You must enjoy your opponents being falsely disabled. Strafe any Willys Jeeps lately? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Never had any problems with the Willys Jeeps and strafing in a Jug. After you destroy those Jeeps, pull your jugs nose up and get into a dogfight, then tell me how its going.

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BlitzPig_DDT
04-06-2004, 04:58 PM
Well, 1 "big beautiful radial engined US fighter" that sure as hell better not be nerfed is the F6F (-5 please. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif ).

Was more than simply going fast to beat zeros (though that was certainly part of it). The P-40s of the AVG did that. The F4F's did that. The F4Us did that. The Japanese aces respected the Hellcat for it's ability to dogfight above all others.

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VW-IceFire
04-06-2004, 05:11 PM
What to expect from the Corsair.

1) Speed
2) Roll rate (a very good roll rate - not the best but certainly very good)
3) Worst turn radius of any American fighter (including the P-47)

By the way...the P-47 had a range of issues in FB and the D-27's roll rate has been fixed by Oleg for the next patch. So things will be as what the charts say they should be for that plane. That aside, there seems little wrong with the P-47.

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Bull_dog_
04-06-2004, 06:04 PM
From what I understand the Jug and Corsair are similar... I don't have america's hundred thousand but from what I read the main differneces are:

1) The Corsair is faster at lower altitudes and is optimized at a little over 20,000 ft...pretty significant I think

2) The Corsair had a great rate of roll...maybe better than the Jug...but not 100% sure of that..I do know that the Navy tried to retrofit Corsair type ailerons to the Hellcat so the difference between those two aircraft must have been significant.

3) similar diving characteristics, but the Jug is heavier and has a couple more guns

4) I think the corsairs high speed turning is a little worse than the Jug, but as speed drops, the corsair has better low speed turning/rolling....it gets more agile as it slows down, but never did that against the Zero cause it still couldn't even come close to turning with a zero...but against Ki-44's and Ki-61's it could be a useful turn fighter.

5) I know the F4U-4 could outclimb just about all aircraft...4,700ft/min or something like that, but I think the other corsairs could outclimb Jugs...at least before the paddle-blade prop.

The corsair experts should pipe in now with the exact data and any errors I have in my thinking... overall, the Jug and Corsair should be similar. Only problem is that I don't think Oleg did the Jug any favors, so If the Corsair is accurate, it should be superior to the Jug in most respects.

JR_Greenhorn
04-06-2004, 06:45 PM
I think Bull_Dog_ has got it about right.
Again, without proper documents that will be sure to appear as soom as the F4U is released, comparing specifications between the P-47 and F4U would imply that the F4U should give slightly better performance.

The two aircraft use almost the same engine installation, what with both planes recieving a turbocharged version of the R-2800, and in both cases rated around 2000hp and up, depending on the specific variant.

However, the Jug is a bit bigger and heavier than the Corsair. Also, the Corsair's propellor is about a foot larger as well.



The F6F is also fit for comparison among these aircraft. Among US fighters of the War, the Hellcat is second in size only to the Thunderbolt, however the F6F boasts the greatest wing area of any single engine fighter.

While the F4U and P-47 have a turbosupercharger to maintain engine performances at altitude, the F6F does not benifit from such a device on its R-2800. Static power ratings are similar, however without a turbo the F6F should lose more power with altitude than the other two.

Also, those big wings on the Hellcat helped create its legend, but they are a liability to flight performances, especially at high speeds. Hence, there is a significant speed difference between the F6F and the more closely matched P-47 and F4U.

mllaneza
04-06-2004, 08:36 PM
A P-47 can dive into a dogfight nicely. No aircraft at all can climb out of ground attack anddogfight well. Sure, those of us (you) who can manage to come out of a strafing run at 500+ kph can get into a dogfight, but I'll bet those complaining about the P-47s unsuitability as a dogfighter are trying it at 300kph. It's more of a BnZ plane than a dogfighter, but you can turn, just not a sustained turn.

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whitetornado_1
04-06-2004, 09:30 PM
The U.S. navy planes didn't stay there for nothing.The Mustang and the P-38 and the Jug were the only ones to see service on all fronts
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BpGemini
04-06-2004, 10:38 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PraetorHonoris:
Well, the Zero rolls like a b17 already... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


The Zero's roll rate seems slow and sluggish just like it should be.

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BlitzPig_DDT
04-07-2004, 06:46 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
That aside, there seems little wrong with the P-47.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

At the moment, the D-22 and D-27 behave identically. The roll rates on all 3 have been reduced, and the latter 2 do not zoom, or dive accelerate well enough compared to other planes to do much of anything with. They were actually closer to the mark a few patches ago.

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VW-IceFire
04-07-2004, 07:36 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BlitzPig_DDT:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
That aside, there seems little wrong with the P-47.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

At the moment, the D-22 and D-27 behave identically. The roll rates on all 3 have been reduced, and the latter 2 do not zoom, or dive accelerate well enough compared to other planes to do much of anything with. They were actually closer to the mark a few patches ago.

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That seems to be a global thing for all the planes between 1.22 and AEP. As for roll rate I don't see much different (although I have yet to replicate my roll rate tests from 1.22 in AEP) between the two versions but post AEP release Oleg has said that he has calculated a new roll chart for the models and that it will be used in the next patch. This roll chart appeared to be much closer to what we've seen in various books and reports that SkyChimp has posted.

As for energy retention, I've heard that nearly all planes are off for the zoom climb area and other such things. You may be right on these points...I have no idea http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

She's a great bird offline in the ground pounder role or in a high altitude dogfight. In the dogfight servers where you get 5km separation between bases it becomes a virtually useless fighter.

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BlitzPig_DDT
04-07-2004, 07:56 AM
Many planes zoom very well. Most seem unaffected, or have benefitted by AEP. Ever since the beta patch leak which first contained the P-51, the Jug (and P-51 to some extent) have been getting slowly robbed of their zoom, one patch at a time.

That is the most significant aspect of their performance apart from their guns (let's not even get into that. lol), and it's being stripped. Roll rate is a nice thing to have and all, but it's not gonna make or break something like the P-47.

Right now the fact that it can't pull away from anything or out zoom anything is a serious handicap. The D-27 isn't what it was when I was flying it exclusively. And back then it was borderline undermodeled. Now it's just dying a slow death of a thousand patches.

But yes, A2G it's still quite good.

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Cess-Harp
04-07-2004, 08:41 AM
{Well, the Zero rolls like a b17 already... )

Maybe that is because the zero did have a roll rate like a B17.
From what I have been able to find on this matter , this was true. It could climb and jink like crazy , but it had a very slow roll rate. And this is where some of the pilots that fought them found a way to kill the aircraft.
The P40 used B&Z on the zero in China , and the pilots said that even if the Zero saw them they could not roll away or dive away fast enough to get clear from the attack.

jeroen_R90S
04-07-2004, 11:25 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by whitetornado_1:
The U.S. navy planes didn't stay there for nothing.The Mustang and the P-38 and the Jug were the only ones to see service on all fronts
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What were Wildcats doing in Africa and Hellcats doing in France then? Enjoying the scenery? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Jeroen

TgD Thunderbolt56
04-07-2004, 12:27 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jeroen_R90S:
What were Wildcats doing in Africa and Hellcats doing in France then? Enjoying the scenery? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Jeroen<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Flying with the RAF. I'm more inclined to think the reasons for their absence in Europe on behalf of the US was more due to rift between the armed forces (i.e. the US Navy and the USAAF). The Navy (and Marines) had a much stronger presence in the PTO and was all but absent in the ETO. Even today there are few, if any, planes that transcend that rift to fly for both forces. Case in point. Both the F-16 and F-18 were borne from the Airforce's LWF (Light Weight Fighter) competition. The F16 and F18 were so close that it was difficult to choose, but a choice was made and it was the F16. The Navy (typically opting for the redundancy of 2 engines) quickly scarfed up the F18. Both of these fighters fit the same role, but ONLY fly for their respective forces. This trend was started Looooong before WWII and, I'm sure, played some part.



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jeroen_R90S
04-07-2004, 02:20 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Thunderbolt56:

Flying with the RAF. I'm more inclined to think the reasons for their absence in Europe on behalf of the US was more due to rift between the armed forces (i.e. the US Navy and the USAAF). The Navy (and Marines) had a much stronger presence in the PTO and was all but absent in the ETO. Even today there are few, if any, planes that transcend that rift to fly for both forces. Case in point. Both the F-16 and F-18 were borne from the Airforce's LWF (Light Weight Fighter) competition. The F16 and F18 were so close that it was difficult to choose, but a choice was made and it was the F16. The Navy (typically opting for the redundancy of 2 engines) quickly scarfed up the F18. Both of these fighters fit the same role, but ONLY fly for their respective forces. This trend was started Looooong before WWII and, I'm sure, played some part.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree for the most of it. My intention was to add some color to a rather black and white statement:

http://history.navy.mil/photos/images/g30000/g30244.jpg

Hellcats, Avengers and the likes were indeed flown by British, Dutch and other pilots over France. They never got above southern France AFAIK, IMHO most likely indeed by the reason you mention.

On the other side, Navy FM's and Avengers were flying off escort carriers ending up in Europe... Guess P-51s weren't able to do so... or needed elsewhere. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gifhttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

The F-16/F-18 selection is indeed a strange one. You'd say after both services operating the likes of F-4, A-7, A-3/B-66 some more cooperation would be present?

Jeroen