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XyZspineZyX
09-18-2003, 07:04 PM
Online often I see the mad pitbull strategy of combat. This is where you fly around scaning for any little grey dot that moves and attack it. A little reading and thought will bring anyone to the conclusion that strategy is important. Stuff like not engageing superior aircraft unless you have and altitude or suprise advantage etc... I try this somewhat. Holding off engagements untill I have a decided advantage of somesort and breaking engagements when it starts looking bad. I want to live! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
I was reading about Malta from Mr Beurlings perspective. Crazy battle that one. Often the Malta spits were outnumbered 10 or 20 to one. Even with these odds they averaged 10 huns knocked down for every 1 spit. Besides the point. Well it would seem that many many battles would go by without the huns "comming out to play" or "mixing it up". He did say that the Italian pilots would often stay to fight it out though.
So who here fights like a mad pitbull attacking everything that moves, who tries to use their brains and who fights like a real pilot and just sniffs around the enemy before going home? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

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XyZspineZyX
09-18-2003, 07:04 PM
Online often I see the mad pitbull strategy of combat. This is where you fly around scaning for any little grey dot that moves and attack it. A little reading and thought will bring anyone to the conclusion that strategy is important. Stuff like not engageing superior aircraft unless you have and altitude or suprise advantage etc... I try this somewhat. Holding off engagements untill I have a decided advantage of somesort and breaking engagements when it starts looking bad. I want to live! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
I was reading about Malta from Mr Beurlings perspective. Crazy battle that one. Often the Malta spits were outnumbered 10 or 20 to one. Even with these odds they averaged 10 huns knocked down for every 1 spit. Besides the point. Well it would seem that many many battles would go by without the huns "comming out to play" or "mixing it up". He did say that the Italian pilots would often stay to fight it out though.
So who here fights like a mad pitbull attacking everything that moves, who tries to use their brains and who fights like a real pilot and just sniffs around the enemy before going home? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

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XyZspineZyX
09-18-2003, 07:58 PM
What makes you think a pitbull doen't use strategy?

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XyZspineZyX
09-18-2003, 08:24 PM
Pitbulls have a strategy allright: Get stuck in and nail the other motherf*cker!

"I find your lack of brains disturbing"
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XyZspineZyX
09-19-2003, 02:31 AM
As your common wingy, you should know, but I'll give my opinion. I think I fly rather aggressive most of the time, but usually attempt to assess the situation and attain some advantage before rushing blindly in. I know that when we fly together we usually take it to the bad guys. At least give better than we get.

...now if I could just stop frying my engines...*sigh*





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XyZspineZyX
09-19-2003, 02:59 AM
This is the problem with full real servers. I call it "Are you my mother?" syndrome. People just fly around looking for dots and then engage them. There isn't much thinking ahead because there are no icons, just dots. There is far more strategy going on in medium settings, where there is more information to process.

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XyZspineZyX
09-19-2003, 03:07 AM
I always thought it was the italian airforce they fought at malta not the LW

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XyZspineZyX
09-19-2003, 03:11 AM
RayBanJockey wrote:
- This is the problem with full real servers. I call
- it "Are you my mother?" syndrome. People just fly
- around looking for dots and then engage them. There
- isn't much thinking ahead because there are no
- icons, just dots. There is far more strategy going
- on in medium settings, where there is more
- information to process.
-


Yes, that does seem to make sense /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif I like a nice balance between realism and gameplay myself...

And the Malta Airforce fought both Luftwaffe pilots and Italian ones from 1940 to 1943

XyZspineZyX
09-19-2003, 05:50 AM
An interesting and often overlooked aspect of superman view is that there is virtually no chance to surprise an opponent due to the arrows displayed. Further, it is far more difficult to evade a bandit because he can at the very least follow the arrow to stay near you. Situational awareness is dramatically increased by the use of visual pointers. Additionally, gunnery is much more lethal due to the greater envelope of probability of hitting the target...more deflection shots, greater angles possible, better ability to adjust fire to walk the shots in etc. Simply put you are unable to hide since you are effectively always in plain sight.

Sounds like a noob server doesn't it?


Contrast Full Real settings. Surprise is a key factor in success and the subtle strategy of deciding how to engage for best advantage. Because of the closed cockpits and often the lack of padlock, the combat favors making moves that help you avoid being seen...to increase your chance of surprise. This is in many ways a direct reflection of realism btw. Situational awareness is limited and each pilot must have the skills to maximize it on their own, this is part of what sets good pilots apart from average ones. Full real also limits your firing opportunities and forces you to concentrate on maximum effectiveness on one burst because the target can so easily evade attack once engaged due to the locked cockpit...the better a planes visibility the greater advantage it has in improving situational awareness which has a direct effect on the probability of success of the attacking fighter.

This sounds very challenging and realistic I think.


There is a very subtle aspect in the differences of the two views that has significant implications. Before blurting out what that is, let me give another example.

Imagine you can teleport at will to attack your enemy at any time 24/7 as often as you like. You could be a million miles away, teleport right next to him, shoot him and leave instantly. No chance for him to see you coming and little chance for him to evade. You can do this while he sleeps, while he eats, while he showers, while he watches TV...he is vulnerable to attack at your whim, not his own.

Imagine the reverse...the enemy can see you coming from a long long way off. Your every move is telegraphed before you do it and you cannot surprise him in any way. He always has time to consider your attack and make a plan of action, you are simply unable to get the jump on him.


In the two extreme examples above, which scenario will give the attacker the greatest advantage? The ability to use surprise at will or being in the position of having your enemy see everything you do and react accordingly?



Now consider the implications of what this means, in particular as it relates to superman vs full real. Take care not to confuse the argument to be about which is more realistic however, it should be obvious that in real life surprise is the key ingredient for success and so it is in Full Real as well. That is not the issue here and there is no question in my mind about what simulates real life better.


My question of the day is:


Which one requires a greater combination of skill, reflexes, tactics and knowledge of the flight model to succeed in? In short, which one is harder to succeed in?



As the 50 gallon drums of aviation fuel are piled high in preparation for the inevitable flaming that will start, let me state clearly that I have no preference on either setting. I fly them both on a regular basis and actually steer a little more toward full cockpit flying. You should also consider that I am not here to change your point of view and in many ways could care less about how we all fly. We're here for fun and enjoyment, what works for you is ok with me, it's not my place to dictate that you are wrong.


This is simply a logical observation based on the essence of what each setting is at heart. There is no value judgement placed on either choice and there is need for there to be one placed in any event.


Think about it though, it's an interesting exercise.



TX-Zen
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XyZspineZyX
09-19-2003, 06:18 AM
If I can't find a full real server, I don't usually play.

No icons, friend or foe, is even better, but that's usually more difficult to find.

No, I'm not an elitist ace, either. Nine times outta ten, I get shot down, rather than doing the shooting down, if my opponent sees me.

Nevertheless, there is little that compares to swooping down on an enemy and killing him. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

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XyZspineZyX
09-19-2003, 07:02 AM
i agree tx- zen
in vow and vef, you also have to study the map to find out wich vector to fly to reach the goals.no waypoints on the map in flight.asks alot of concentration/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

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XyZspineZyX
09-19-2003, 01:11 PM
TX-Zen wrote:
- An interesting and often overlooked aspect of
- superman view is that there is virtually no chance
- to surprise an opponent due to the arrows displayed.
- Further, it is far more difficult to evade a bandit
- because he can at the very least follow the arrow to
- stay near you. Situational awareness is dramatically
- increased by the use of visual pointers.
- Additionally, gunnery is much more lethal due to the
- greater envelope of probability of hitting the
- target...more deflection shots, greater angles
- possible, better ability to adjust fire to walk the
- shots in etc. Simply put you are unable to hide
- since you are effectively always in plain sight.
-
- Sounds like a noob server doesn't it?

I remember when I was a noob 6 years ago. I spent alot of time with planes on my six and nowhere to hide. If full real servers were available back then I would have played in them instead (so I could get away easier and have surprise kills handed to me) You were making sense until your conclusion.



- Contrast Full Real settings. Surprise is a key
- factor in success and the subtle strategy of
- deciding how to engage for best advantage. Because
- of the closed cockpits and often the lack of
- padlock, the combat favors making moves that help
- you avoid being seen...to increase your chance of
- surprise. This is in many ways a direct reflection
- of realism btw. Situational awareness is limited and
- each pilot must have the skills to maximize it on
- their own, this is part of what sets good pilots
- apart from average ones. Full real also limits your
- firing opportunities and forces you to concentrate
- on maximum effectiveness on one burst because the
- target can so easily evade attack once engaged due
- to the locked cockpit...the better a planes
- visibility the greater advantage it has in improving
- situational awareness which has a direct effect on
- the probability of success of the attacking fighter.
-
- This sounds very challenging and realistic I think.

Sounds more like a bunch of noob sneak attack artists if you ask me. You call gaining situational awareness a skill, but to me it is just a chore, kind of like digging a hole. Pan/roll/change vector, wash rinse repeat. I seldom get killed in full real servers by a plane I didn't know was there, in fact I can never remember it happening. It's just extra work that you have to do until you get sick of it/run out of gas and go play medium settings.

I think you need to lay off the crack pipe while thinking about full real, because it isn't all that you crack it up to be. I do like the individuality of the different cockpits, but usually full real is just flying around looking for a dot 90% of the time (it may be real but it isn't fun). Most veteran pilots prefer boom and zoom, but in full real there is a surprising ammount of noobie furballing near the ground. This is because full real is the equivalent of snorkling in murky water. (restricted mask view and all) Usually you don't know whats going on until you are right in the middle of it. So in order to know what's going on, that's what people do.



- There is a very subtle aspect in the differences of
- the two views that has significant implications.
- Before blurting out what that is, let me give
- another example.
-
- Imagine you can teleport at will to attack your
- enemy at any time 24/7 as often as you like. You
- could be a million miles away, teleport right next
- to him, shoot him and leave instantly. No chance for
- him to see you coming and little chance for him to
- evade. You can do this while he sleeps, while he
- eats, while he showers, while he watches TV...he is
- vulnerable to attack at your whim, not his own.

Sounds like "autofollow" cheat in CFS1.


- Imagine the reverse...the enemy can see you coming
- from a long long way off. Your every move is
- telegraphed before you do it and you cannot surprise
- him in any way. He always has time to consider your
- attack and make a plan of action, you are simply
- unable to get the jump on him.

Sounds like a good even dogfight.



- In the two extreme examples above, which scenario
- will give the attacker the greatest advantage? The
- ability to use surprise at will or being in the
- position of having your enemy see everything you do
- and react accordingly?

Fecious question. Of course the (full real) pilot using the autofollow cheat has the advantage.


- Now consider the implications of what this means, in
- particular as it relates to superman vs full real.
- Take care not to confuse the argument to be about
- which is more realistic however, it should be
- obvious that in real life surprise is the key
- ingredient for success and so it is in Full Real as
- well. That is not the issue here and there is no
- question in my mind about what simulates real life
- better.
-
-
- My question of the day is:
-
-
- Which one requires a greater combination of skill,
- reflexes, tactics and knowledge of the flight model
- to succeed in? In short, which one is harder to
- succeed in?


Definitely the medium settings example! Are you joking?

Your 2 attacker-centric examples clearly show that it would be much harder to win without the ability to teleport to someone's six (meaning that medium settings are harder)

Ignoring your flawed examples, lets break down full real vs medium settings in terms of skill, reflexes, tactics and knowledge

skill----since there is more crap that you have to do, I would say full real takes more skill. (although there is a difference between skill and work)

reflexes----medium settings require faster reflexes. The action is more fast and furious.

tactics---tactics is planning your course of action based on known advantages/disadvantages. Medium settings give you more variables to consider and thus a higher level of tactics. As you appraoch other planes, there are more things to think about instead of just getting closer to a dot. You may also know who the pilot is, and what his tendencies are.

knowledge of the flight model----These are equal. Full real and medium planes both fly the exact same way, fire the exact same bullets, turn just as hard, burn out at the same time etc. All these things you need to know to win a dogfight in either settings.


Which one requires more of all this stuff (and thus harder?) to succeed in? Everything balances out. Even if medium meant that gun damage was 2x as strong and the FM was arcade that wouldn't make it any easier. You would get more kills but you would also be killed more. They are just different styles of play and noobs and aces inhabit both servers.

I view "full real" almost the same as "easy", because both take it a little too far. It's like, are you a pure republican, or a pure democrat? If you were a real person it would be somewhere in-between. Thats my beef with full realists. It's like some brainwashed cult. Like someone in Oleg's ready room will give a suggestion on how to improve padlock, and some full realist will come in an say "I have the solution, just play full real and then you don't have to worry about it." Some of these pilots even go so far as to turn off the text messages on the sceen. These pilots must not be very good dogfighters, because real aces need to know to the second when the overheat message appears, so they can begin their timers to when they have go into cooling mode. They fly around in la-la land with no overheat timing and don't use trim in turns, they suck! And then they have the gall to think they are good pilots. The reality is they use full real as a crutch to think they have skills.



jobace wrote:
- i agree tx- zen
- in vow and vef, you also have to study the map to
- find out wich vector to fly to reach the goals.no
- waypoints on the map in flight.asks alot of
- concentration

Sounds like a waste of time. I'm glad I don't play in those wars. Takes a half an hour just to get the game started, and then you blow a whole tank of gas just to get 1 kill. But hey, at least it's full real, right?

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Zayets
09-19-2003, 01:33 PM
I don't have to worry. I almost never attack , I mostly hide. i check the map , where the enemy base is , by now I know almost any map , check my heading and fly low in the green cammo. my goal is not to hunt but to avoid being hunted.my goal is to kill everything that lays on your base.10 times from 9 (sic!) I got shoot down. Our brave fighter aces go for the IL's,Jugs,He's and Stukas instead of fighting like aces they were with planes of their caliber.Many noobs fed now the ground of smolensk just because they thought they are invincible in the super Yak against my Jug , IL ,He or TB. I don't even bother , the AI gunners takes well care of them. I don't look for a fight , but if I can avoid it , I preffer to stay outta trouble. Hehehe. I'm much more impressed by a succesful bombing run than a plane kill. Wait till big bombers will come in FB. Then I will be almost invincible,muhahahahahaha!

Zayets out

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XyZspineZyX
09-19-2003, 03:23 PM
RBJ,

I am extremely disapointed in your response lol.

You seem to have missed a subtle thing called IRONY when I described the noob server vs the more realistic settings.

You also seemed to be thinking more about Star Trek when I gave the example of teleporting...also a shame because clearly it has nothing to do with the dynamics of FB. It is used as an illustration of one extreme line of thinking where you have the ability to use surprise at will vs the other end where you are unable to ever achieve surprise.


You are correct, the FM does not change either based on settings but here again, that is not the point. The point is the likelyhood of how often you will need to get the absolute maximum performance out of your plane depending on what settings you fly. In full real relative performance differences are not as severe because you normally operate from surprise and have a greater ability to break contact by causing the attacker to lose sight of you. This often allows inferior planes to still be successful because they are still able to use the advantage of surprise.


I'm actually quite surprised RBJ, I've always felt that you've made some great points in several of your posts.




TX-Zen
Black 6
TX Squadron CO
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clyndes@hotmail.com (IM only)


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XyZspineZyX
09-19-2003, 11:52 PM
"stands up and applaudes an cheers RBJ"

Bravo! Got my support!

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XyZspineZyX
09-20-2003, 12:12 AM
RBJ, If it takes half an hour to get a kill then it was probobly worth it.

If IL2 attempts to simulate real life WWII air combat then it should take a lot longer than that on average.

The game allows air combat on many levels, why is a more realistic time scale a "waste of time"?