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View Full Version : Paintschemes as JPG to save online bandwidth?



Scragbat
04-25-2004, 04:43 PM
I know that paintschemes need to be BMP in order to work within the game itself, but would it be difficult to have them as Jpeg's for the purpose of saving bandwidth for online play?

Could they get loaded in as Jpeg and then converted to BMP when stored in the netcache?

As a Jpeg they would be a fraction of the size of a BMP and the quality could be retained with decent compression levels.

It's a sad affair when all we get in online play is the default skins because everybody has 'Skin downloads' off to save bandwidth. There are so many talented skinners out there whose work is going unnoticed http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

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Scragbat
04-25-2004, 04:43 PM
I know that paintschemes need to be BMP in order to work within the game itself, but would it be difficult to have them as Jpeg's for the purpose of saving bandwidth for online play?

Could they get loaded in as Jpeg and then converted to BMP when stored in the netcache?

As a Jpeg they would be a fraction of the size of a BMP and the quality could be retained with decent compression levels.

It's a sad affair when all we get in online play is the default skins because everybody has 'Skin downloads' off to save bandwidth. There are so many talented skinners out there whose work is going unnoticed http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

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p1ngu666
04-25-2004, 05:33 PM
its a good idea http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
jpeg compression is open source isnt it?

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CowboyTodd41
04-25-2004, 06:55 PM
That's a really good idea. I love making my own personal skins with my own nose art and such and it sucks when nobody can see it!

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ASH at S-MART
04-25-2004, 07:24 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Scragbat:
I know that paintschemes need to be BMP in order to work within the game itself, but would it be difficult to have them as Jpeg's for the purpose of saving bandwidth for online play?

__Could they get loaded in as Jpeg and then converted to BMP when stored in the netcache?__

As a Jpeg they would be a fraction of the size of a BMP and the quality could be retained with decent compression levels.

_It's a sad affair when all we get in online play is the default skins because everybody has 'Skin downloads' off to save bandwidth. There are so many talented skinners out there whose work is going unnoticed_ http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
It is such a DUH that Im sure there has to be a reason they dont.. Nice thing about bumps is the size is fixed.

ASH HOUSEWARES
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Agamemnon22
04-25-2004, 07:58 PM
That's not a bad idea, tho I agree it's so intuitive that there has to be a reason it isn't done. I'm thinking perhaps they found jpeg decompression created a large performance hit. This could cause stutters, though I have no idea how severe it could be... after all, it isn't THAT much work for current systems. What could be done, though, is to precompress the skins to DXT format (the compressor plug for photoshop is available from nVidia's site, for example).

VW-IceFire
04-25-2004, 08:13 PM
JPG decompression can create some performance issues that a relatively uncompressed format like BMP does much quicker. Most games use BMP or TGA both which have similar file sizes...and both are used because they incur a low performance hit...

Before that it was PCX alot...same reason.

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Foo.bar
04-26-2004, 04:20 AM
jpg-formate zu verwenden ist eine, *hüstel*, scheißidee. jpg ist ein komprimiertes dateiformat. je h¶her der komprimierungsgrad desto h¶her der grad der artefakte, also der bildst¶rungen in den kontrastbereichen. wenn jpg unkomprimiert bleibt, hat es die selbe dateigr¶ße wie bmp. also v¶llig unbrauchbar.

doch der denkansatz war gut http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

GreyBeast
04-26-2004, 04:37 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Foo.bar:
jpg-formate zu verwenden ist eine, *hüstel*, scheißidee. jpg ist ein komprimiertes dateiformat. je h¶her der komprimierungsgrad desto h¶her der grad der artefakte, also der bildst¶rungen in den kontrastbereichen. wenn jpg unkomprimiert bleibt, hat es die selbe dateigr¶ße wie bmp. also v¶llig unbrauchbar.

doch der denkansatz war gut http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Let me translate for non-Germans:

"Using JPG formats is a, *cough*, sh**ty idea. JPG is a compressed file format. The higher the compression rate the higher the rate of "artifacts", in other words "errors", in places of differing contrast. Uncompressed JPG´s have the same filesize as BMP´s, therefore it´s completely useless.

But the idea was good.

xanty
04-26-2004, 05:29 AM
I took the GladiatorII Navy skin and made a test:
* BMP/TGA (8 bit index) = 1026kbs
* PNG (8 bit index) = 735Kbs
* GIF (8 bit index) = 603Kbs
* PCX ('') = 923Kbs
* Jpeg (RGB quality high) = 401Kbs

Now, using Jpeg will require some CPU time to change it to "8 bit index colours", so it may not be a good idea.

However, I was quite surprised to the fact that the similar file and system (index 256 colours) of GIF gives a much smaller size. Perhaps GIF could be the way? PNG files is a second candidate, and maybe free to use (GIF is not free, apparently)

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Porsimo
04-26-2004, 06:08 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by xanty:
However, I was quite surprised to the fact that the similar file and system (index 256 colours) of GIF gives a much smaller size.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's because GIF is also a compressed format (IIRC).

- Regards
Porsimo
---------------------------
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Aaron_GT
04-26-2004, 06:38 AM
Given that jpg is a patented format currently
subject to lawsuits, png would be a better choice.

p1ngu666
04-26-2004, 07:50 AM
u would need around 70%quality or above i think
and a conversion on my pc takes around 1second, even including changing res i think
q3 has jpegs i think

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Fennec_P
04-26-2004, 11:56 AM
Quality issue aside, it might simply take more cpu/gpu time to draw a JPG texture than a TGA, causing a frame hit. Possibly, it could also increase load time, which would make stutters worse.

In Q3, everything is loaded at the start, and total memory usage is low.

Also, the game seems to require the use of an alpha channal, something a JPG doesn't support.

I definitely hope there is some provision for smaller file sizes in BoB. If the textures get as big as 2048x2048, skin download will be all but impossible with TGAs.

Scragbat
04-26-2004, 01:33 PM
I am not suggesting that JPG's themselves be used for mapping texture. I know that they have to be BMP, I know JPG's don't have alpha channels.
I am only suggesting JPG for online purposes. I am suggesting that they get loaded in as JPG, then converted to BMP when put into the Netcache or prior to being mapped onto an aircraft.
With low compression and medium to high quality settings, a JPG will show little artifacting but will be a fraction of the size of a BMP.

I have been misunderstood if people think I am suggesting JPG to replace BMP. The end result will still be BMP after conversion.

To quote myself:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Could they get loaded in as Jpeg and then converted to BMP when stored in the netcache?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I meant this before they get mapped onto an aircraft.

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Foo.bar
04-26-2004, 02:24 PM
i really do not know how you will explain skinners to accept artefacts in their hard worked skins.

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Scragbat
04-26-2004, 03:45 PM
Foo-bar
As it stands we see no skins online because most servers and the people who join them have them switched off to save bandwidth.

Have you tried any tests with Jpeg settings with varying levels of compression?
There is a happy medium you can get to between quality and compression with little if any artifacting.

You can save a Jpeg with maximum quality setting and see no artifacting (unless you look at the skin at 400% and you'd still be hard pressed to see any).

At maximum quality Jpeg setting you are still making a saving on filesize but not compromising the quality of the skin.

Unless some compromise is reached we will see no skins online.

Skinners such as yourself should know that a Jpeg of high quality will not have visible artefacts.

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crazyivan1970
04-26-2004, 04:09 PM
Excellent idea, JPEG or PNG.. PNG even better

V!
Regards,

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Aaron_GT
04-28-2004, 03:26 AM
The jpg patents will lapse in October, so
after that point using jpgs might be ok, but
at the moment the holders of the patents seem
to be trying to squeeze the last revenue from
their IPR. AFAIK the PNG format is much more
free to use (but who knows if that infringes
patents - it's a messy world) and the netpbm
code is free to use to convert this to bitmap
formats for display (I suspect there is a
windows port of this code).

VMF513_Sandman
04-29-2004, 02:11 PM
there have been outstanding repaints that i've been seeing..the suck point is the lag pauses when some1 respawns. some1 mentioned that 512x512 would be much better than the 1024 type skin. is there any way to reduce 1 from 1024 to 512. maybe that would solve some of the lag issues, but even with skin d/l's off, when some1 hits fly and spawns on the field, it's instant lag pause...that really does need to be looked at.

Josiv_
04-30-2004, 04:20 AM
Png is better because: it loosless commpresion and its realy free without any doubts

WUAF_Badsight
04-30-2004, 07:05 AM
WAIT WAIT WAIT ..........

you mean that this is a pauseable idea ?

you mean to say that this could help with online skin transfers ?

is this actually a suggestion with some possibilitys ?!?!

PNG ?

p1ngu666
04-30-2004, 07:43 AM
PNG is like jpeg but different, in my experience http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
dunno how its different tho, someone else will http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

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FourShades
04-30-2004, 08:28 AM
S! All,

Some random thoughts on a Friday night...

The problem with the current system is that BMP files are uncompressed. That's it. But that is exactly why Maddox uses them for skins - once they are downloaded the texture is ready to go immediately with no uncompression or remapping necessary.

For people playing coops or with superfast bandwidth, large RAM and hot CPUs, using GIF (lossless compression, 8 bit colourmap), PNG (lossless compression, 48bit colourmap), TIFF (lossless compression, 32bit colourmap or even JPG (lossy compression, 24bit colourmap) would be no problem. But just imagine playing on a DF server with a mid-range PC already struggling with the load. A new pilot joins and downloads his/her skin. Finally your PC gets the whole file, then has to do an inflation and then a bit reduction on each pixel, then convert to BMP format. All this while you are flying! The effect might be something akin to a PrintScreen cheat.

Also, there is no sure-fire way of determining what the best JPG compression ratio is for every new skin. It would be sacrilege to smear out some of the skins put out by the masters just for the sake of 200 KB.

Have fun!
IV/JG7_4Shades

Foo.bar
04-30-2004, 01:21 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FourShades:
But that is exactly why Maddox uses them for skins - once they are downloaded the texture is ready to go immediately with no uncompression or remapping necessary.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

right. that's it.

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