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TonyEH
08-12-2004, 04:20 AM
In "Oleg's ready Room", I have had a post up regarding the lack of challenge in FB's "veteran" and "ace" AI level's. Its been up for weeks now, but I have yet to see it address.

I would like to know if the AI will be upgraded or improved VASTLY, for Pacific Fighters and subsequently Forgotten Battles.

Reaction time, awareness, deflection gunnery and general flying ability absolutely needs to be improved if the game is to provide any challenge to the human player. "Veteran" and "ace" level AI should be a very difficult fight and shoot down, not the easy kill that they are now. These AI levels should be very difficult to get on the tail of and a kill against a "veteran" or "ace" level AI should be very hard to achieve, not simple. Also the AI when in the combat zone should fly their aircraft fast, an I-16 should NOT catch up with a 109F4.

For the sake of the enjoyment of the combat element of the game, please do something to improve the AI's fighting ability.

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=63110913&m=507102065

Tony

TonyEH
08-12-2004, 04:20 AM
In "Oleg's ready Room", I have had a post up regarding the lack of challenge in FB's "veteran" and "ace" AI level's. Its been up for weeks now, but I have yet to see it address.

I would like to know if the AI will be upgraded or improved VASTLY, for Pacific Fighters and subsequently Forgotten Battles.

Reaction time, awareness, deflection gunnery and general flying ability absolutely needs to be improved if the game is to provide any challenge to the human player. "Veteran" and "ace" level AI should be a very difficult fight and shoot down, not the easy kill that they are now. These AI levels should be very difficult to get on the tail of and a kill against a "veteran" or "ace" level AI should be very hard to achieve, not simple. Also the AI when in the combat zone should fly their aircraft fast, an I-16 should NOT catch up with a 109F4.

For the sake of the enjoyment of the combat element of the game, please do something to improve the AI's fighting ability.

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=63110913&m=507102065

Tony

sapre
08-12-2004, 05:30 AM
I totally agree with you.
although AI of FB is 1 of the best 1 in any other sim, but it needs a serious overhaul.
personally i don't care about flable B25 or flyable typhoon.
I WANT A IMRPOVED AI http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/icon_twisted.gif

VW-IceFire
08-12-2004, 02:24 PM
The AI is already shooting me down with reckless abandon so I want a Typhoon and a B-25 flyable http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I would love to see more team oriented tactics and more evasive manuvers but AI is a tricky thing.

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RCAF 412 Falcon Squadron - "Swift to Avenge"

nearmiss
08-12-2004, 05:52 PM
It's going to be very interesting, what 1C:Maddox has done with the AI.

The Japanese fighters were T & B altogether. When the Americans fought them T & B they were trounced. When the Americans went to B & Z, and energy tactics they defeated the Japanese.

THe AVG in CHina did a job on the Japanese using B & Z.

So what we'll see is T & B vs B & Z http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/53.gif that's gonna be interesting.

http://avsims.com/portal/modules/liens/images/banner.gif (http://avsims.com/portal/)

Tater-SW-
08-12-2004, 06:08 PM
It will be interesting since the AI TnBs regardless of type.

tater

LEXX_Luthor
08-12-2004, 08:25 PM
nearmiss:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>The Japanese fighters were T & B altogether.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/52.gif ---&gt; Ki~61 &lt;--- http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/51.gif

nearmiss, I never thought I'd say this, but maybe there is such a thing as Too Much FMB.

There, I said it. wow

Trigger Happy eh? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

LEXX_Luthor
08-12-2004, 08:36 PM
---&gt; Ki~44 &lt;~~ http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif

...anyway, when FP is releaced, we must start all over again from scratch with FMP and go through the whole insanity again http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

nearmiss
08-12-2004, 08:40 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
---&gt; Ki~44 &lt;~~ http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif

...anyway, when FP is releaced, we must start all over again from scratch with FMP and go through the whole insanity again http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Relax LEXX - you can't hang on every word a poor simmer writes. You'll wind up daffy as the next guy http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/53.gif

http://avsims.com/portal/modules/liens/images/banner.gif (http://avsims.com/portal/)

TonyEH
08-13-2004, 05:09 AM
While the zeros etc were TnB and will fly "better" in PF, they were flimsy machines and can be shot down with a couple of rounds, so it could balance out.

However, with the current situation in the Eastern front game, the German figthers are all but useless in a fight as the Russian fighters can take far more damage than a zero.

Hence we have the stupid situation where an endless "turn in circles" fight finishes with the "ace" GErman fighters shot down and the "rookie" russian fighters shot to pieces but still flying. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

One solution would be to make the aircraft fly at the top speed in the combat area and make them fly at top speed when the player gives the order to reform.

This would reduce ridiculous losses on both sides and allow the players flight to attempt to disengage from a fight thats going wrong.

I have even offered to play test this if its implemented...for free.

Tony

Tater-SW-
08-13-2004, 08:21 AM
I'd love to be able to set a min speed for a flight of fighters that they'd do everything possible to maintain.

The US planes absord a decent amount, but if you make a mission vs zeros now, the US planes get reamed by the AI if you sit back and watch.

tater

TonyEH
08-16-2004, 04:49 AM
So I see nobody from the Dev group is going to address this issue on this thread either?

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Tony

LuckyBoy1
08-16-2004, 05:12 AM
Well, so many of the good things in this game were dummied down.

Take for instance the random mechanical failures that were built into IL-2 the original. Very real and very immersive, but the whiners didn't like reality (they need to understand the simulation part means simulating reality) so out it went. Then the AI gunners were too good for dolts who want to slowly wander up the tail of a HE-111 in a straght line and not get their ticket punched. Then the Naval guns were too hard for the same reason. Then the new desert map actually had the gall to show you what it's like to try and get a overloaded bird off the pad when it's 110 F (I don't know how many Commie degrees that is) so they knocked any sort of pleasure out of that one as well. We can't have our lil plane overheating now can we?

The bottom line is that the community seems to have degraded to a degree away from wanting a thinking mans game where you have to deal and manage less than ideal circumstances into what it becomes when you start handing out free copies to snot nosed brats who earned enough points on some website. They didn't pay for the game and don't value it the way we do. Response? come on now, weren't you just being a bit unrealistic here?

Warp speed Scotty! But Captain, I was about to nail my lovely assistant; can you hold off for a wee bit here?! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif

Now with an actual index & more fiber! It is newer & and even more improved! It's Luckyboy's Guide For Complete Users!...

http://www.pingu666.modded.me.uk/luckyboy/LuckyboysGuide2.htm

Luckyboy = Senior hydraulic landing gear designer for the P-11 & Contributing Editor to Complete Users magazine.

Tater-SW-
08-16-2004, 07:51 AM
The naval guns were absurd before, they needed changing. Sorry, but the deck gun on a sub (for attacking shipping) was takling out aircraft beyond visible range before. Like 3 bombers downed attacking a lone sub before they were close enough to draw the sub.

Regardless, AI needs some work. If there were mechanical failures (I don't remember that), like everything else in the game I say make it a toggle in the FMB!

tater

sugaki
08-16-2004, 04:11 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>We have the stupid situation where an endless "turn in circles" fight finishes with the "ace" GErman fighters shot down and the "rookie" russian fighters shot to pieces but still flying. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

One solution would be to make the aircraft fly at the top speed in the combat area and make them fly at top speed when the player gives the order to reform.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

First off, Russian fighters seem a wee bit overmodelled in FB.

Second, in real-life planes just don't fly around at top speed--having planes fly at top-speed when ordering to reform is potentially even more dangerous, not to mention inefficient. Reaching top speed means putting more of a strain on your engine, whether by applying excessive thrust or by increasing the engine temperature. Going the max speed has to be a tactical decision that has a very good reason other than simply entering the combat area.

Even if airplanes entered the combat area at top speed, it wouldn't make a difference with the way the AI is modelled anyway. They don't really zoom & boom, and so all you will see is the energy bleeding for a longer duration, but ultimately the outcome will remain the same.

As for Japanese planes only turning, that's misleading. Ki-61, Ki-44, and the J2M are examples of ZnBers.

-Aki

Maj_Death
08-17-2004, 01:39 AM
The IL2/FB series has by far the worst AI I have seen in a flight sim. I suspect PF won't change that. It would be nice if they fixed it though, it cheats as bad as the AI in MOH but yet it is still easy to kill. I want AI with actual FM's, view restrictions and realistic gunnery.

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TonyEH
08-17-2004, 02:28 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sugaki:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>We have the stupid situation where an endless "turn in circles" fight finishes with the "ace" GErman fighters shot down and the "rookie" russian fighters shot to pieces but still flying. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

One solution would be to make the aircraft fly at the top speed in the combat area and make them fly at top speed when the player gives the order to reform.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

First off, Russian fighters seem a wee bit overmodelled in FB.

Second, in real-life planes just don't fly around at top speed--having planes fly at top-speed when ordering to reform is potentially even more dangerous, not to mention inefficient. Reaching top speed means putting more of a strain on your engine, whether by applying excessive thrust or by increasing the engine temperature. Going the max speed has to be a tactical decision that has a very good reason other than simply entering the combat area.

Even if airplanes entered the combat area at top speed, it wouldn't make a difference with the way the AI is modelled anyway. They don't really zoom & boom, and so all you will see is the energy bleeding for a longer duration, but ultimately the outcome will remain the same.

As for Japanese planes only turning, that's misleading. Ki-61, Ki-44, and the J2M are examples of ZnBers.

-Aki<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Emmmmm.........In the combat zone, in real life, ALL aircraft will fly at the top speed that their aircraft will allow, not only is it wise, its essential. To fly slow is inviting disaster most of the time.

And if a situation calls for a quick get away, Then too right pilots will try and reform on their leader at top speed and try to get out of the area. You don't leisurely fly away from the enemy if things are going bad for you, you get the hell out of there as fast as your lane will go.

Over heating in the game is not an issue, as the AI don't overheat their aircraft.

So, by forceing the AI to fly at their top speed while in combat mode, it will give the fast aircraft their natural advantage....the advantage they would have had in Real Life. At the moment thats negated because fast planes fly so lethargically in the combat zone.

The outcome probably wouldn't be the same as it is now either, as the 109's wouldn't be caught up with and shot down by the slower I-16s and I-153's, if the AI didn't allow their plane to go below a certain speed in the combat zone. This happens ALL the time in FB at the moment and its just a stupid situation and it makes the game silly to play.

But neither I or you can really be sure that the oucome will be the same at the moment if the AI is forced to fly at their fastest combat speed.

But as I have said, if Oleg wants to try it, I will play test it and report the results gladly.

Tony

Skypoet
08-18-2004, 12:11 PM
(Bump!)

I totally agree with the AI issue (and would like to see it adressed). By the way, there also seems to be a problem with flight formations. For example, B-17's used to fly "in boxes". I don't see how you can achieve that with the current mission editor...

Too often I end up dogfights in a turn with 10 enemy planes behind me... while my buddies have flown away or still aren't here... quite ridiculous... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/93.gif

Well anyway the AI still is better in FB than that of CFS2 where planes used to fly straight while you were shooting at them http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif , or collided with each other when flying in formation or crasehd during takeoff! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/1072.gif

(Pardon my "red-wine-and-camembert" english)

Cheers,

SP

Atomic_Marten
08-18-2004, 06:58 PM
Actually on ACE level AI is really good at everything. Except one major thing: tactics... poor thing will climb in G.50 trying to get me in P-47, or when flying a Zero he will then turn with me in Spit... that is what need real improvement. To make AI to squeeze the best of their A/C's. Also when in straight vertical climb dogfight I can be sure that the AI will not fire on me unless I'm below 0.50 in distance from him (when he is on my dead 6) even if AI have a clear shot on me -- due to low speed of my fighter at the top of the climb. That one need improvement also...

Skypoet
08-19-2004, 08:55 PM
Hi...

yes, that's right, the AI is not very good from the tactical point of view. I also think that the AI planes should act in a more coordinated manner.

But, it's true, I must admit that the AI doesn't just fly straight and that they know how to aim...