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View Full Version : Arno isn't the only Assassin to read his target's memories...(AC3 Spoilers) (Connor )



Defalt221
02-23-2015, 06:30 PM
Quoted from here (http://www.reddit.com/r/assassinscreed/comments/2udmms/arno_isnt_the_only_assassin_to_experience_flash/) for those who are too lazy to navigate to another link:
"During The Mad Doctor's Castle and Silk Errand mission, Connor has flashbacks of previous events that happen in the life of other people. This happens when he comes in contact with a space they've occupied and it can be assumed that DNA residue (minds out of the gutter everyone!) can trigger these scant memory flashbacks via Eagle Vision.

Several folks on this sub and elsewhere have claimed the post-assassination memory flashbacks in AC:Unity have no basis in AC lore and are a gaping plot hole. What Connor experiences during these missions is exactly the same as what Arno does with his targets, but with much lower stakes."

There's also the flashbacks on Captain Kidd when Connor smells and touches his blood and also on that woman during one of the Homestead missions.
And my reply to this:"Several folks on this sub and elsewhere have claimed the post-assassination memory flashbacks in AC:Unity have no basis in AC lore and are a gaping plot hole. What Connor experiences during these missions is exactly the same as what Arno does with his targets, but with much lower stakes."
is: If Unity had those Target deathbed conversations ALONG with flashbacks,it'd have been awesome because they add characterization and the flashbacks give it a TV episodic feel.

Perk89
02-23-2015, 06:45 PM
Can we please not pretend like that was a thing... I've convinced myself that it was a confession scene happening in the background with a "flashback scene" overlay illustrating what Arno's target was confessing to him.

Shahkulu101
02-23-2015, 06:50 PM
Can we please not pretend like that was a thing... I've convinced myself that it was a confession scene happening in the background with a "flashback scene" overlay illustrating what Arno's target was confessing to him.

And how do you justify the other ones?

Perk89
02-23-2015, 06:51 PM
I dont know what you mean.

Shahkulu101
02-23-2015, 06:53 PM
I don know what you mean.

There is a flashback with every target you kill in Unity.

Perk89
02-23-2015, 06:54 PM
There is a flashback with every target you kill in Unity.


Yes, I know, that's what I'm talking about.

Shahkulu101
02-23-2015, 06:59 PM
Yes, I know, that's what I'm talking about.

Oh okay, I thought you were only talking about Sivert's since that took place in a confession box.

I don't think it's that bad, it's the AC universe we're talking about here. Although personally I prefer the white room, but that was also too unrealistic as you could kill a target in the middle of plain sight and proceed to have a 2 minute conversation with him. IMO that 2 minute conversation should be a reward for the player if they manage to kill the target unseen with no surrounding guards.

ze_topazio
02-23-2015, 07:09 PM
The Connor one was much worse, just by looking at some footprints and plants he could play an entire scene in his head.

Farlander1991
02-23-2015, 07:16 PM
Ezio had it in ACR as well in investigative instances (for example, when we're looking at the bodies the Sentinel has left Ezio sees his ghost doing the murders and running to certain directions). Also, he could see Altair in Masyaf at the beginning.

Namikaze_17
02-23-2015, 07:23 PM
All are pretty unrealistic really...

Arno can play back memories of people he never met or knew existed.

Same with Connor except he can play back events a person did days, weeks, etc beforehand.

Ezio can see ghosts that move and guide him places.

And Edward can only highlight people. :p


EDIT: Ah, what about Alta´r?

Just normal I guess...

SixKeys
02-23-2015, 07:24 PM
Ezio had it in ACR as well in investigative instances (for example, when we're looking at the bodies the Sentinel has left Ezio sees his ghost doing the murders and running to certain directions). Also, he could see Altair in Masyaf at the beginning.

Yup. This is really nothing new to the franchise. Eagle Sense is basically "knowledge" of events you couldn't possibly know otherwise. The presentation in Unity is just different from the classic white room speeches.

SpiritOfNevaeh
02-23-2015, 07:25 PM
The Connor one was much worse, just by looking at some footprints and plants he could play an entire scene in his head.

Forensic scientists and detectives do it.

Connor was just doing his own detective work :rolleyes:

ze_topazio
02-23-2015, 07:29 PM
Forensic scientists and detectives do it.

Connor was just doing his own detective work :rolleyes:

He was way too good at it, that was CSI level forensics.

Namikaze_17
02-23-2015, 07:29 PM
Forensic scientists and detectives do it.

Connor was just doing his own detective work :rolleyes:

Sam has Connor-style eagle sense confirmed. :rolleyes:

The_Pashker-Man
02-23-2015, 07:43 PM
arno isn't strong enough to control the white room...

Assassin_M
02-23-2015, 07:50 PM
Yeah, i love how everyone pretends that this is any less realistic than talking to dead people whilst surrounded by hundreds of guards. Oh oh and i also love how they moan about it not being explained...as if ANYONE explained how the hell Altair could talk to dead people. Truly, change can show the idiocy in people.

NondairyGold
02-23-2015, 08:13 PM
And lets not forget that this type of Eagle vision was also hinted at in the Surveillance section in the AC Initiates site.

Osaka He Youkoso
At 1:12pm, the Initiate spy updated an entry in Osaka.

Uploading to the Initiates Database in all available languages...

REPORT BEGINS:

Three men entered a room where more men had died. Gavin
Banks looked at that room, using that special clarity of his, and the
room showed him ghosts in return. This doesn't come naturally to
him, or easily, and he always emerges from the experience
looking tired.

Emmanuel Barraza saw things in that room as well. He's seen his
fair share of rooms like that for one lifetime. He doesn't need to
use Eagle Vision to know where the bodies fell or how they died.
He was born in a room like that, and I think he's convinced that
he'll die in one.

Gavin emerged from that room with a truth: Abstergo didn't take
out the Osaka Brotherhood, the Yakuza did. Gavin's contact here in
Osaka was one of his first mentors, as well as one of the victims
of that room, and he's taking it pretty hard.

"Find me the Assassins who survived," he told us, "or find me the
Yakuza scum****s that did this." And so, at last, we have a
mission.

I remain your humble spy.


http://i1313.photobucket.com/albums/t552/UlysessJDuckett/ACi-OsakaHeYoukoso_zpsnvhy5gqx.jpg

RA503
02-23-2015, 08:24 PM
Yeah, i love how everyone pretends that this is any less realistic than talking to dead people whilst surrounded by hundreds of guards. Oh oh and i also love how they moan about it not being explained...as if ANYONE explained how the hell Altair could talk to dead people. Truly, change can show the idiocy in people.

Tell me whem Altair talk to dead people that I can't remember.

Assassin_M
02-23-2015, 08:40 PM
Tell me whem Altair talk to dead people that I can't remember.
His targets.

RA503
02-23-2015, 08:49 PM
His targets.

That ghosts in the ending created by Al Mualin ? is all illusions from the Apple...

Assassin_M
02-23-2015, 08:53 PM
That ghosts in the ending created by Al Mualin ? is all illusions from the Apple...
No. When Altair stabs each of his targets, they have a conversation in an enclosed space where time stops and the target can walk around freely, explaining their motivations and goals.

Hans684
02-23-2015, 10:28 PM
Oh okay, I thought you were only talking about Sivert's since that took place in a confession box.

I don't think it's that bad, it's the AC universe we're talking about here. Although personally I prefer the white room, but that was also too unrealistic as you could kill a target in the middle of plain sight and proceed to have a 2 minute conversation with him. IMO that 2 minute conversation should be a reward for the player if they manage to kill the target unseen with no surrounding guards.

Actually it's been explained in Unity, the a Father of Understanding allows for such discussions. The flashback with Germain in the end is just as much a "white room" as the others, the only difference is that his assassination have both flashbacks and a discussion.

NondairyGold
02-23-2015, 11:24 PM
Actually it's been explained in Unity, the a Father of Understanding allows for such discussions. The flashback with Germain in the end is just as much a "white room" as the others, the only difference is that his assassination have both flashbacks and a discussion.

I can see where you are coming from and why you'd think that, but it's just a turn of phrase that he uses. Germain feels that that is why Arno is able to use these abilities, the fact is we don't know, and it could be a residual 6th sense that is left over from First Civ DNA. The reason Arno is able to talk with Germain now is because of the evolution of Arno's abilities. As he's used them they've become more and more "potent" and he's now able to commune with the dead.

Locopells
02-24-2015, 12:51 AM
The Connor one was much worse, just by looking at some footprints and plants he could play an entire scene in his head.

It's called Detective Vision...

The_Kiwi_
02-24-2015, 05:49 AM
It's called Detective Vision...

Connor had some suave free-man type of friend that gave him special tea that let him see in sonar
That's how it happened, I bet

DemonLord4lf
02-24-2015, 06:05 AM
The Connor one was much worse, just by looking at some footprints and plants he could play an entire scene in his head.

How was that bad? A good detective could do the same thing with a crime scene. Connor is a native tracker. Watch the tv show Mantracker. Its a game show about 2 people trying to avoid a well respected tracker. Just listen to how he explains the tracks he sees. Watch one show, and you'll understand that Connor could've done the same thing.

DemonLord4lf
02-24-2015, 06:06 AM
No. When Altair stabs each of his targets, they have a conversation in an enclosed space where time stops and the target can walk around freely, explaining their motivations and goals.

They explained that it was just a glitch in the Animus IIRC

Assassin_M
02-24-2015, 07:03 AM
They explained that it was just a glitch in the Animus IIRC
No. You remember wrong.

DemonLord4lf
02-24-2015, 07:10 AM
No. You remember wrong.

"Because Alta´r's memories are rendered by the Animus software, "glitches" may often be experienced with nucleotides and error messages appearing. These glitches can be used to help identify targets and if the player reacts quickly enough, may be used to provide other vantage points during cut-scenes."

Source: http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Assassin%27s_Creed

Assassin_M
02-24-2015, 07:18 AM
"Because Alta´r's memories are rendered by the Animus software, "glitches" may often be experienced with nucleotides and error messages appearing. These glitches can be used to help identify targets and if the player reacts quickly enough, may be used to provide other vantage points during cut-scenes."

Source: http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Assassin's_Creed
That's about the cutscenes, not how Altair talks to dead people and how they move around. Thanks for the source, though.

DemonLord4lf
02-24-2015, 07:20 AM
That's about the cutscenes, not how Altair talks to dead people and how they move around. Thanks for the source, though.

No problem. I believe they used the same concept for those parts too. I wouldn't have mind the flashbacks if they were explained better in Unity. I mean, when you kill your first target you all of a sudden see a flash back, and when he tells people about it, no one seems to bat an eye.

The_Kiwi_
02-24-2015, 07:21 AM
"Because Alta´r's memories are rendered by the Animus software, "glitches" may often be experienced with nucleotides and error messages appearing. These glitches can be used to help identify targets and if the player reacts quickly enough, may be used to provide other vantage points during cut-scenes."

Source: http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Assassin%27s_Creed

That explains how you can change camera angles during cutscenes, not how Alta´r talks to his targets after stabbing them in the neck

DemonLord4lf
02-24-2015, 07:23 AM
That explains how you can change camera angles during cutscenes, not how Alta´r talks to his targets after stabbing them in the neck

He's a master assassin, I'm sure he was trained to stab someone in the neck in such a way that would allow them to still be able to talk for a short time ^_^;

The_Kiwi_
02-24-2015, 07:26 AM
He's a master assassin, I'm sure he was trained to stab someone in the neck in such a way that would allow them to still be able to talk for a short time ^_^;

Doesn't explain how the targets are able to articulate properly and even walk around as if nothing happened, as _M explained

DemonLord4lf
02-24-2015, 07:28 AM
Doesn't explain how the targets are able to articulate properly and even walk around as if nothing happened, as _M explained

Animus glitch... Though now that I think about it... That is really just a cop-out...

The_Kiwi_
02-24-2015, 07:35 AM
Animus glitch... Though now that I think about it... That is really just a cop-out...

http://i.imgur.com/nTXSx4B.gif

DemonLord4lf
02-24-2015, 07:37 AM
http://i.imgur.com/nTXSx4B.gif

http://www.myfacewhen.net/uploads/3793-oh-stop-it-you.png

VoldR
02-24-2015, 10:57 AM
I like the one where ezio kills a monk from being burned...
He was tied standing, stabs in the cheek and then we see him lay on the ground, after the scene he's back tied standing.
:)

Blackflag got some not nice transitioning.
When I kill them, it jumps to the talking scene with sudden change of sound...
Not fade in and out..

Farlander1991
02-24-2015, 11:07 AM
Yeah, i love how everyone pretends that this is any less realistic than talking to dead people whilst surrounded by hundreds of guards. Oh oh and i also love how they moan about it not being explained...as if ANYONE explained how the hell Altair could talk to dead people. Truly, change can show the idiocy in people.

An abstract after-kill concept with strange rules and uncertain principles is fine, but replace it with another abstract after-kill concept with strange rules and uncertain principles, and it's oh my god wtf?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

Though white rooms are usually some of my favourite moments from the games (in AC1, AC3 and AC4), the memory thing works well with the conspiracy concept of ACU where each of its players is discovered step by step. Also, Bellec's death is much more emotional when we see his memories rather than talk to him.

Assassin_M
02-24-2015, 03:09 PM
Also, Bellec's death is much more emotional when we see his memories rather than talk to him.
Exactly how I feel. Which is why i'm on the fence about totally abandoning the concept, i'm leaning more towards some sort of hybrid


I wouldn't have mind the flashbacks if they were explained better in Unity. I mean, when you kill your first target you all of a sudden see a flash back, and when he tells people about it, no one seems to bat an eye.
But the white room conversations are no better explained than the flashbacks, not to mention that Altair too brought up the conversations he has with his targets and no one seems to bat an eye.

Farlander1991
02-24-2015, 03:13 PM
But the white room conversations are no better explained than the flashbacks, not to mention that Altair too brought up the conversations he has with his targets and no one seems to bat an eye.

To be fair, people DID bat an eye. Those post-death conversations were branded as strange, and weird, and sometimes even out of place, when AC1 was released. Of course, the white rooms were repeated often enough that people now accept that as 'standard', and don't accept other things anymore.

It's, in essence, the 'no beak on the hood' and 'no scar on the lip' all over again.

Defalt221
02-24-2015, 03:24 PM
The Connor one was much worse, just by looking at some footprints and plants he could play an entire scene in his head.

Like Robert Downey Jr. Sherlock Holmes films. Right? It's called deduction.

Assassin_M
02-24-2015, 03:31 PM
To be fair, people DID bat an eye. Those post-death conversations were branded as strange, and weird, and sometimes even out of place, when AC1 was released. Of course, the white rooms were repeated often enough that people now accept that as 'standard', and don't accept other things anymore.

It's, in essence, the 'no beak on the hood' and 'no scar on the lip' all over again.
No no, i was referring to in-game people. Altair would mention the conversations to Malik, Jabal(interesting to note that Jabal sarcastically asks Altair if he'll speak about what the target said or if he'd rather have him[Jabal] read his mind) and Al-mualim and they all treated it as a normal occurrence without explanation.

Farlander1991
02-24-2015, 03:38 PM
(interesting to note that Jabal sarcastically asks Altair if he'll speak about what the target said or if he'd rather have him[Jabal] read his mind)

Eh, that shouldn't be considered as anything other than 'for ****'s sake talk!', hardly a reference to any mind reading ability.

Assassin_M
02-24-2015, 03:44 PM
Eh, that shouldn't be considered as anything other than 'for ****'s sake talk!', hardly a reference to any mind reading ability.
Ehhhhh you never know....you never know.

VoldR
02-24-2015, 03:49 PM
Let's see,

So far all of Altairs scenes is plausible to make it fit, except the one where the guy talks in public with his soldiers, only way is ton if assassinate in front of a crowd.

Ezio's got some odd mismatching moments like the monk being tied up. Some parts are good like him talking with vierre Brotherhood and revelations make it more plausible.
edward is like the most normal talking to them before they draw their last breath.

i forgot Connor's

Unity are flashbacks but some are directly talking to him?

i just wish we get different scene when killed differently.
i mean be it stab or air assassinate or blend kill.

ofcourse not when stab or shot in the face... Otherwise how to talk, in general.

Assassin_M
02-24-2015, 03:55 PM
So far all of Altairs scenes is plausible to make it fit,
No:

Tamir was in a well guarded market place
Garnier was in a well guarded hospital fortress
Majd Addin was in front of a large crowd in an area surrounded by guards
Aboulnoqood was in a palace guarded by his personal men
Sibrand was on a ship guarded by Knights
You mentioned William

So only Robert and Al-Mualim "work"

Farlander1991
02-24-2015, 04:03 PM
To be fair, William and Sinbrand CAN be silently killed without any witnesses, and IIRC the fat merchant too. But I don't think that just because they can be silently killed should somehow 'validate' the white rooms.

Fatal-Feit
02-24-2015, 04:11 PM
(sorry if this was already brought up)

Something I found strange, and somewhat inconsistent in Rogue, was that the Assassins' white rooms had interactions with the environment, almost like they weren't in another dimension. (i.e shoving Chevalier off the ship) There's a lot of discrepancies throughout the games that needs explaining.

Assassin_M
02-24-2015, 04:11 PM
To be fair, William and Sinbrand CAN be silently killed without any witnesses, and IIRC the fat merchant too. But I don't think that just because they can be silently killed should somehow 'validate' the white rooms.
You are correct for William. For Sibrand, it takes a pretty contrived effort, i think. There are still knights on the ship.

Farlander1991
02-24-2015, 04:17 PM
(sorry if this was already brought up)

Something I found strange, and somewhat inconsistent in Rogue, was that the Assassins' white rooms had interactions with the environment, almost like they weren't in another dimension. (i.e shoving Chevalier off the ship) There's a lot of discrepancies throughout the games that needs explaining.

There aren't clear rules in the white rooms. They're abstract, and there are evidences in pretty much all the games that they can be real-time as much as they can't be real time. (Which is what irks me up about the whole 'white rooms are better' argument, because they're abstract and unclear, just as the memory reading is abstract and unclear)


You are correct for William. For Sibrand, it takes a pretty contrived effort, i think. There are still knights on the ship.

I don't know. With exception of Jubair (who's designed for a silent kill), Sibrand is the only person I managed to kill without getting detected after the kill in AC1 (I actually never knew about William thing until long after the game was released and haven't tried it yet). And it's not that contrived either, there is a designed pathway for a silent unseen kill (and an investigation mission showing it with a map). Besides, if you want you can clear out the ship from guards beforehand.

Fatal-Feit
02-24-2015, 04:53 PM
(Which is what irks me up about the whole 'white rooms are better' argument, because they're abstract and unclear, just as the memory reading is abstract and unclear)

You and me both.

SixKeys
02-24-2015, 11:43 PM
I can't believe people are actually trying to justify white rooms in a way that makes sense realistically. It's impossible. None of the "well maybe Alta´r stabbed them in a way that didn't kill them straight away" speculation makes sense because that still doesn't explain how they can have this 10-minute long conversation while surrounded by angry guards. The white rooms are an abstract concept, always have been. AC1 was a more philosophical game than the rest, so these philosophical conversations fit into the overall atmosphere. They didn't have to make sense. We didn't even know about TWCB, the Father of Understanding or any such nonsense back then. It's an artistic way to allow for some thoughtful pondering in the middle of all the action. Why try to make sense of something that cannot be twisted in any way to adhere to reality?

Xstantin
02-25-2015, 12:03 AM
^I've always assumed they were there for some dramatic purpose. Power of the Animus and all that

Farlander1991
02-25-2015, 12:06 AM
Why try to make sense of something that cannot be twisted in any way to adhere to reality?

Because if one can't adhere white rooms to reality one can't have an argument against memory reading viability :p

Namikaze_17
02-25-2015, 12:09 AM
Why try to make sense of something that cannot be twisted in any way to adhere to reality?


"Because it's better and I like it!"

Assassin_M
02-25-2015, 12:10 AM
Why try to make sense of something that cannot be twisted in any way to adhere to reality?
To somehow portray reading memories as unrealistic?

VoldR
02-25-2015, 12:16 AM
No:

Tamir was in a well guarded market place
Garnier was in a well guarded hospital fortress
Majd Addin was in front of a large crowd in an area surrounded by guards
Aboulnoqood was in a palace guarded by his personal men
Sibrand was on a ship guarded by Knights
You mentioned William

So only Robert and Al-Mualim "work"

This is based on the story setting given, not AI programming...

Tamir is easiest to walk up and stab from behind. A blend kill and time to talk before blood flows too much to be noticed.

Gamier is often alone with his patients who is preoccupied with their own pain.
Just checked my video, there was two guards within eye contact seeing me approach him. Not sure if its the same at every cubical.
He could kill the guards with throwing knives...

Majd Addin, Altair is disguised as a "monk" so he can appear to be tending to a suddenly feeling ill person. The second stab is obvious to all.

Abu'l Nuqoud, often I catch him far away from his guards in his haste

Sibrand is the easiest and loneliest target of all.
I catch him alone after shooting arrows and actually manage to escape un detected

In addition the book burner has no guards within the walls and could be drag from sight of the civilians watching. I haven't stayed long enough to see if he ever stops blabbing. Maybe people will walk away after he's done... After he is asking them to go and do the same.

In later posts u Sai William is possible to get alone? How? Oo

ze_topazio
02-25-2015, 12:18 AM
The white rooms are simply more interesting, that's all there is to it.

VoldR
02-25-2015, 12:23 AM
they can have this 10-minute long conversation ?

The longest jibber jabber Altair have is 1:30...

Assassin_M
02-25-2015, 12:37 AM
This is based on the story setting given, not AI programming...

Tamir is easiest to walk up and stab from behind. A blend kill and time to talk before blood flows too much to be noticed.

Gamier is often alone with his patients who is preoccupied with their own pain.
Just checked my video, there was two guards within eye contact seeing me approach him. Not sure if its the same at every cubical.
He could kill the guards with throwing knives...

Majd Addin, Altair is disguised as a "monk" so he can appear to be tending to a suddenly feeling ill person. The second stab is obvious to all.

Abu'l Nuqoud, often I catch him far away from his guards in his haste

Sibrand is the easiest and loneliest target of all.
I catch him alone after shooting arrows and actually manage to escape un detected

In addition the book burner has no guards within the walls and could be drag from sight of the civilians watching. I haven't stayed long enough to see if he ever stops blabbing. Maybe people will walk away after he's done... After he is asking them to go and do the same.

In later posts u Sai William is possible to get alone? How? Oo
Not really interested in arguing semantics, my point stands. Having conversations with targets you stabbed in the neck is an abstract and the only thing explicable (i.e time) is irrelevant. Just sayin'

About William, if you wait until he finishes his lecture, he'll be alone.

SixKeys
02-25-2015, 01:54 AM
Not really interested in arguing semantics, my point stands. Having conversations with targets you stabbed in the neck is an abstract and the only thing explicable (i.e time) is irrelevant. Just sayin'

About William, if you wait until he finishes his lecture, he'll be alone.

Not exactly alone. He retires to his desk to study some papers and his guards will have their backs turned.

Assassin_M
02-25-2015, 02:13 AM
Not exactly alone. He retires to his desk to study some papers and his guards will have their backs turned.
Yeah, alone in the sense that they were all around him and are not anymore, noted.

Hrafnagud72
02-25-2015, 07:51 AM
None of them are realistic. Don't know why people are freaking out about any of them. That being said I personally preferred the white room conversations over the flash backs. But that's just me. I don't think any of them need explaining or justification.

DemonLord4lf
02-25-2015, 08:03 AM
They actually made fun of this in Watch Dogs. When you hack into one of the CTOS centers, you'll be able to see a video of a kid playing a game and his father watching. The father goes, "why are they talking?" The son replies "He's confessing everything" To which the dad replies "that's stupid"

Its alot funnier then i made it out to be... I cant remember exactly how it went, but it was something to that degree.

Fatal-Feit
02-25-2015, 05:16 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LnVS6nrHCXM

1:05

DemonLord4lf
02-25-2015, 10:35 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LnVS6nrHCXM

1:05

Yea that was it. lol