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dimbismp
02-22-2015, 03:43 PM
A while back,the community crowned ACR's Constantinople as the most beautiful AC city.
Now that ACU is out,do you think that Constantinople is still the best,or Paris claimed that title?

Also,do you think London can top Paris/Constantinople?

aL_____eX
02-22-2015, 04:03 PM
Who said that Constantinople was the most beautiful city? Was there a poll?

For me it's still Venice.

Shahkulu101
02-22-2015, 04:08 PM
Hard question. Paris is grander, insanely detailed and the masterfully crafted 1:1 landmarks are a sight to behold. The art style is also absolutely gorgeous. Unity is a flawed game but Paris is a masterpiece, one of the best cities ever created in a game - when it comes to aesthetics. The NPC behavior wasn't really a step above what we've already seen, and because Arno is disconnected from the city and it's surrounding events it's hard for me to love Paris from the heart. This is heightened by the somewhat cold atmosphere as a result of no ambient music.

Constantinople was also stunning to look at IMO. For the PS3 era it was one of the best looking games out there, and the art direction from Raphael Lacoste was superb. I personally prefer the more Middle Eastern feel to a European flavor, but Constantinople had both mixed together wonderfully. Hagia Sophia and Topkapi Palace are some of my favourite landmarks in the series, the architecture throughout the city is just beautiful. And the ambient music - oh the ambient music, is the absolute best in the series and has some of my favourite tracks EVER. Not just in terms of game soundtracks.

I think I'm going to have to go with Constantinople for it's better and more immersive atmosphere. However I love both and it's very close, they are my top two for sure.

dimbismp
02-22-2015, 04:23 PM
Who said that Constantinople was the most beautiful city? Was there a poll?

For me it's still Venice.
http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/888531-The-Assassin-s-Creed-Cities-Elimination-Game-Final-Results?highlight=cities

marvelfannumber
02-22-2015, 04:36 PM
I am gonna have to go with Paris for this one. Because while Constantinople was a beautiful and unique setting (and the ambient music was some of the best I have ever heard) the city was filled with lazy copy paste jobs (some landmarks with database entries were even copy pasted) and loads of landmarks were in the completely wrong spot.

I guess you could say

Atmosphere > Constantinople

Authencity > Paris

EmbodyingSeven5
02-22-2015, 04:37 PM
really?
I thought it was ok.

mines either Paris, Havana, or Venice

Perk89
02-22-2015, 04:49 PM
I love Constantinople, it's beautiful, the districts vary widely, and the colors are great. The art direction is excellent, the tombs and such are some of the best, and it's got some great notable landmarks. The Golden Horn also adds a great little wrinkle to the design and gameplay of the city. It's one of my favorite AC cities.


I'll say this though-is it entirely fair to judge cities based solely on their "beauty?" Think of all the excellent cities that have a different, kind of realistic beauty for varied reasons.. War-torn Acre, swampy Forli, colonial New York (AC3's cities were so ridiculously alive, even if there sadly wasn't much to do) the, tiny eeked out settlements of BF and Rogue, and the eery, mysterious nature of Saint Denis (that I've said multiple times that I felt did a better job of capturing the AC "charm" than Paris did.)

I-Like-Pie45
02-22-2015, 05:08 PM
well actual real french people have confirmed to me that paris and its snooty people are the cesspit of modern french culture so obv constantinople

Je suis pas Paris!

JustPlainQuirky
02-22-2015, 05:16 PM
Paris is much more varied

EmptyCrustacean
02-22-2015, 05:19 PM
Who said that Constantinople was the most beautiful city? Was there a poll?

For me it's still Venice.

Yep, Venice is gorgeous as is Rome with its awesome landmarks.

marvelfannumber
02-22-2015, 05:49 PM
Yep, Venice is gorgeous as is Rome with its awesome landmarks.
I honestly think Venice looks pretty ugly in AC2 due to terrible filter which makes everything look washed out.

Xstantin
02-22-2015, 06:08 PM
Paris.

playlisting
02-22-2015, 06:17 PM
Florence is my personal favourite but all AC cities are amazing. I'd say Paris but it's not really a fair comparison when you take the graphics into account. Ubi had much more breathing room with the new hardware so they could afford to make the city bigger and more detailed. To give a 100% truthful, fair answer I'd need to see Constantinople in the new engine.

Also Constantinople is fantastic. I'm playing through Revelations for the first time and I can't believe how pretty it is. Ubi really did magic with the Xbox 360.

VestigialLlama4
02-22-2015, 06:26 PM
I am currently playing REVELATIONS. By the way, stop calling the city Constantinople, the name of the city is Istanbul. Konstantiniye is the name the Ottomans called it at the time of the game.

In any case, Istanbul is the superior AC city. For one thing it recreates these gorgeous monuments, architecture and distinct topography but integrates it to the gameplay. The city is arranged on a hill and various inclines which makes it the only time parachuting makes total sense as traversal and you end up using it far more regularly instead of special Achievement moments like in Brotherhood (jumping off the Castel Sant-Angelo). You jump from the top of Gul Cami or Fatih Cami, the Zeyrek Mosque, or the Valens Aqueduct and the Roman Columns at the Forum of the Ox to stay in the air while gliding through alleys and the like. It's Parkour-Punk. In the earlier AC cities, there was this sharp divide between rooftop and street-level travel. In REVELATIONS, you spend a great deal of time on several heights, either street level, top of the pillars or minarets and basic rooftop. There's the Grand Bazaar, where a street is on the same level as a roof, since they are adjacent to different levels. It's as much fun being on the street as it is above, the bomb mechanic also allows for more crowd interactions (an innovative feature in the game's AI that was abandoned). Basically, the whole city is one giant Tomb Level.

Paris is aesthetically appealing only because it's Next-Gen, the game's recreation however is pretty lame. On the whole its not any more alive or distinct than any of the New World cities in the Kenway Games and you know it's less alive and far more impersonal than even AC3 Boston, where you really felt that you were in a revolutionary city. It's full of crowds but they are just there. The game encourages you to spend more time on the roofs but because of the greater scale, the time it takes to climb roofs increases, which means more time wasted and in any case, it defeats the purpose of Parkour-get from A to B in less time, which makes less sense if you are spending a great deal of time climbing up Point A.

The game introduces interiors to its credit but again there are these complaints about climbing up or Parkouring through windows from one building to another. The interiors and buildings are largely there to be made into fortresses and not something to be run through. Aside from Notre Dame(which it uses for a grand total of one mission), the monuments are fairly lifeless in recreation. I mean yes there are Nostradamus Puzzles to figure out but its not really alive. Like the Louvre Museum was opened during the Revolution but we hardly get to visit it and look at Leonardo's Mona Lisa(which was there at the time). And you know the game's recreation of Paris suffers greatly from the use of English accents, the fact that there's a separate vocal barrier between Arno and the crowd just doesn't work. I mean if Arno was clearly marked as an Englishman (the way Ezio is an Italian in Turkey) it would sort-of-but-not-quite work. It's just empty really.

SixKeys
02-22-2015, 06:38 PM
I don't think it's the best city in the franchise, but Paris is definitely better than Constantinople.

shobhit7777777
02-22-2015, 06:43 PM
Paris (ACU in general) is absolutely stunning and photorealistic, however Istanbul had a comic-bookish/painting like charm. Besides I found Istanbul to be a better AC playground and have fond memories of running around in that beautifully dense, urban sandbox.
Also colours....Constantinople had soooo many shades...golden shafts of light, wispy smoke, rich blue robes, the golden sails of the ships....you could smell the incense as you walked through the grand bazaar.

Xstantin
02-22-2015, 06:43 PM
The game encourages you to spend more time on the roofs but because of the greater scale, the time it takes to climb roofs increases, which means more time wasted and in any case, it defeats the purpose of Parkour-get from A to B in less time, which makes less sense if you are spending a great deal of time climbing up Point A.



Imo Unity's parkour is way better than the hookblade thingy. I don't really get the time spending complaint when you have these lifts all over the place as well

aL_____eX
02-22-2015, 07:07 PM
Imo Unity's parkour is way better than the hookblade thingy. I don't really get the time spending complaint when you have these lifts all over the place as well
This. Parkour with the Hookblade often felt so clunky.

dimbismp
02-22-2015, 07:18 PM
I am currently playing REVELATIONS. By the way, stop calling the city Constantinople, the name of the city is Istanbul. Konstantiniye is the name the Ottomans called it at the time of the game.
.

The city was called Constantinople for 1100 years.The game takes place 50 years after the Ottoman conquest.It may be called Instanbul now,but back then it was called Constantinople by the Europeans and Konstantiniye by the Ottomans.
But not only Ottomans lived at the city that time...You made me recall how badly the Byzantines were treated in the game

VestigialLlama4
02-22-2015, 07:37 PM
The city was called Constantinople for 1100 years.The game takes place 50 years after the Ottoman conquest.It may be called Instanbul now,but back then it was called Constantinople by the Europeans and Konstantiniye by the Ottomans.

Has everyone forgotten "Yusuf Tazim da Istanbul". Istanbul was always the local name for the city (it became the official name in the 20th Century). It comes from the fact that Constantinople is a mouthful so the locals made it Stantinople than later, Stanople (and sometimes Stamboul), and eventually Istanbul.


Imo Unity's parkour is way better than the hookblade thingy. I don't really get the time spending complaint when you have these lifts all over the place as well

I thought the gameplay brigade would complain about relying on an animation you can't control to traverse around the city, as opposed to the Hookblade (where on a zipline you have control over the speed or in the parachute). Anyway, i am not saying the Parkour should bring parachutes or hookblades to Paris (it fits Istanbul but not other cities) but the fact is that there's no real fluidity in climbing across the city.

Assassin_M
02-22-2015, 07:49 PM
Definitely Paris but not because of a landslide. Constantinople will always hold a special place in my heart. It's an unbelievable immersive city. The music, the sounds, the markets. You could really smell its essence, as Shohbit said.

Paris on the other hand, reminds me so much of Egypt, that it's hard not to like it. It's the closest thing to Egypt, if we never have one. Paris is the definition of an alive city.

king-hailz
02-22-2015, 07:55 PM
Well if we go by just how it looks then I say Paris... However there is more than just aesthetics to how a city feels to me... tye sound and the environment count as well and in that case constantinople kills Paris... Paris sounded like sh*t... Venice is the best overall...

Megas_Doux
02-22-2015, 08:02 PM
I honestly think Venice looks pretty ugly in AC2 due to terrible filter which makes everything look washed out.

This!!!!!!!!


Constantinople is really, REALLY gorgeous!!!! Grandeur Architecture that ranges from Ottoman to Byzantine/Ancient Roman, varied in terms of having distinguishable "districts" from the wooden shacks of the Constantine one, to the rich Palaces where Sofia sartor lives. The whole port is a highlight as well, and it also has the most beautiful nigh time in the series .Even its soundtrack is superb, my favorite in every aspect from the old generation for sure.

However, this a pretty TOUGH question, kinda unfair in you ask me because the generational gap between them. Paris has a lot of variety as well, Gothic, Renaissance and Baroque. Then we have these poor "atmospheric" places mostly in the south eastern part , called La Bievre and the uper class sector full of Baroque/Renaissance mansions and plazas located in the North eastern part of it called Le Marais and also a countryside near Les Invalides, which makes me wish there was actual countryside surrounding Paris.

In the end I have to choose Paris, gothic is my favorite architectural style from the "old times" and you cannot get any better than that in Paris with all those imposing buildings in the likes of Notre Dame, Sainte Chapelle, The Temple, Grand Chatelet, The Bastille, The Conciergerie and so on. Plus there are plenty of those picturesque timber framed houses, catacombs, sewers, etc, etc, etc


My top 5 so far:

1 Paris.
2 Constantinople, Amancio certainly knows how to create cities.
3 Damascus.
4 Florence.
5 Acre, Coastal city + gothic = Win for me even with the HUGE liberties taken. If only there were another colors besides grey tones haha.


Venice could be in my top 3 with ease, if it was not for that ugly blue filter all over it.....OH and I┤m a huge fan of Rome, but its real version, not ACB┤s.

GunnerGalactico
02-22-2015, 08:10 PM
My top 5 so far:

1 Paris.
2 Constantinople, Amancio certainly knows how to create cities.
3 Damascus.
4 Florence.
5 Acre, Coastal city + gothic = Win for me even with the HUGE liberties taken. If only there was a another color besides grey tones haha.


Venice could be in my top 3 with ease, if it was not for that ugly blue filter all over it.....OH and I┤m a huge fan of Rome, but its real version, not ACB┤s.

Those are my top 5 as well, except that Florence and Damascus are third and fourth respectively on my list :)

Venice would've also been on high on my list for top cities in AC, but that colour filter just ruined it for me.

marvelfannumber
02-22-2015, 08:16 PM
The city was called Constantinople for 1100 years.The game takes place 50 years after the Ottoman conquest.It may be called Instanbul now,but back then it was called Constantinople by the Europeans and Konstantiniye by the Ottomans.
But not only Ottomans lived at the city that time...You made me recall how badly the Byzantines were treated in the game

Let's just call it Byzantium to settle all the arguing :rolleyes:

Also, I have not played Revelations in a while but I don't remember the Romans (no such thing as Byzantine) being treated too badly? Maybe my memory is just poor but I remember them being decently grey morally.

dimbismp
02-22-2015, 08:39 PM
Has everyone forgotten "Yusuf Tazim da Istanbul". Istanbul was always the local name for the city (it became the official name in the 20th Century). It comes from the fact that Constantinople is a mouthful so the locals made it Stantinople than later, Stanople (and sometimes Stamboul), and eventually Istanbul.

Wait,you are basically saying that in fifty years the name managed to change from constantinople to stanople to stamboul and finally instanbul?And the word always is very wrong.The ottomans invented the word instanbul,not the byzantines.You are deleting a millenium of history with that word.


Let's just call it Byzantium to settle all the arguing :rolleyes:

Also, I have not played Revelations in a while but I don't remember the Romans (no such thing as Byzantine) being treated too badly? Maybe my memory is just poor but I remember them being decently grey morally.
First of all,Byzantium is the whole geographical area,while Constantinople(modern day Instanbul) is the specific city :)

So,yeah the Byzantines were treated really badly IMO.There were no shades of grey.The Byzantines were portrayed as the invaders who alligned with the corrupt Templars,while the Ottomans were portrayed as the good natives.In reality,Byzantines just wanted to recapture their homeland,in which they lived for over 1100 years.

And then you have people moaning about ACU being too antirevolutionary

Shahkulu101
02-22-2015, 08:44 PM
It was called Constantinople in-game.

That's all that matters.

marvelfannumber
02-22-2015, 08:49 PM
So,yeah the Byzantines were treated really badly IMO.There were no shades of grey.The Byzantines were portrayed as the invaders who alligned with the corrupt Templars,while the Ottomans were portrayed as the good natives.In reality,Byzantines just wanted to recapture their homeland,in which they lived for over 1100 years.

And then you have people moaning about ACU being too antirevolutionary

Oh god now I remember, how could I forget that? Jesus Christ, can you imagine if the portrayed the native americans like that in AC3?

I don't really get why they portrayed the Romans so badly, it was a really weird and confusing standpoint to take.

Altair1789
02-22-2015, 08:49 PM
ACU is a pretty modern game while ACR is starting to get old. ACU was a 1:1 scale, very detailed, beautiful lighting system, ACR had a few buildings that were 1:1, the rest was I think 1:3. There's a small bias here

VestigialLlama4
02-22-2015, 08:52 PM
Wait,you are basically saying that in fifty years the name managed to change from constantinople to stanople to stamboul and finally instanbul?And the word always is very wrong.The ottomans invented the word instanbul,not the byzantines.You are deleting a millenium of history with that word.

Look here is wikipedia: The name İstanbul (Turkish pronunciation: [isˈtanbuɫ] ( listen), colloquially [ɯsˈtambuɫ]) is commonly held to derive from the Medieval Greek phrase "εἰς τὴν Πόλιν" (pronounced [is tim ˈbolin]), which means "to the city".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Istanbul#Toponymy

It was a common name for ages before the Ottoman Turks took over, it's a name given by the people, you know people call philadelphia, Philly and so on.


The Byzantines were portrayed as the invaders who alligned with the corrupt Templars,while the Ottomans were portrayed as the good natives.In reality,Byzantines just wanted to recapture their homeland,in which they lived for over 1100 years.

Look, I don't want to turn this into a culture issue debate (I have started separate threads for that in other pages) but the Byzantine Empire was no more "native" than anyone else. They were the former Eastern Roman Empire obsessed with recapturing old glory and built itself by brutally sacking Italy and other parts of Europe and reducing it to rubble, many of their citizens were slaves (Venice traded with them) and they had guards of mercenaries from all over the world (including Vikings who left runes in Hagia Sophia). It was no innocent backwoods land. By the time the medieval ages happened, it was sacked once by the Catholic Crusaders (As per AC lore, Altair was there when that happened) and reduced to former glory and had to rely on local mercenaries from Anatolia, you know Ottomans who gradually rose to power. And like all union movements they decided to get together and take over management. The Ottomans were as much a part of the Byzantine Empire as anyone else and weren't outsiders or invaders, other people saw them like that because they were Muslims(who the West continues to see as "The Other" even if they pretty much invented Spain).


And then you have people moaning about ACU being too antirevolutionary

Well it IS anti-revolutionary, there is no moaning about it, its a fact. It's packed full of lies. But you know REVELATIONS was actually responsible for a rare positive portrayal of Ottoman Turkey and Istanbul where other media shows them as full of harem girls, Darby McDevitt deserves credit for that.

Namikaze_17
02-22-2015, 08:59 PM
Boston & New York. :p :rolleyes:

VestigialLlama4
02-22-2015, 09:01 PM
I don't really get why they portrayed the Romans so badly, it was a really weird and confusing standpoint to take.

First of all, the Byzantines in the game are NOT the actual Byzantines. It's like the "Cult of Romulus" in Brotherhood, not a cult worshipping a Roman God just a scare crowd in costumes picked by Templars. The game's Byzantines are fake ones, Templars reviving the costume to hide themselves and the leader of that is an Ottoman Turk himself, the Prince. So it's not a bad portrayal at all.

Xstantin
02-22-2015, 09:01 PM
It's packed full of lies.

As every AC game. Cesare was a handsome bastard for all I care :rolleyes:

VestigialLlama4
02-22-2015, 09:02 PM
for all I care :rolleyes:

Good, thanks for contributing with that interesting opinion. Go be proud of yourself.

marvelfannumber
02-22-2015, 09:03 PM
Well it IS anti-revolutionary, there is no moaning about it, its a fact. It's packed full of lies. But you know REVELATIONS was actually responsible for a rare positive portrayal of Ottoman Turkey and Istanbul where other media shows them as full of harem girls, Darby McDevitt deserves credit for that.

I do agree with you on this, but I don't think the answer is to portray the Romans as slave holding, evil villians. The Ottomans did plenty of awful, despicable things too, just like most other empires.

Needed more o' dat greyness

Xstantin
02-22-2015, 09:05 PM
@Vestigial, you just continue that campaign as if Unity killed someone of your kin or something tbh
Every AC game is fiction. Ubi can take ridiculous liberties if it suits them and they did it multiple times

VestigialLlama4
02-22-2015, 09:13 PM
I do agree with you on this, but I don't think the answer is to portray the Romans as slave holding, evil villians. The Ottomans did plenty of awful, despicable things too, just like most other empires.

Needed more o' dat greyness

The game does have that. I mean Vali cel Tradat talks about how the Assassins did nothing when the Turks rolled into Wallachia and this is there in the main missions and not some database entry paragraph nobody will read, Tarik Berleti and the Janissaries talk about how they want a Sultan that will take over Europe and Asia, and later that Sultan comes into power and turns out to be a major a--hole who murders his brother in cold blood. It is actually the grayest of the Ezio games and he himself does a lot of questionable things, starting a riot to get into the Arsenal, and then choking many Cappadoccia people to death via gunpowder smoke. I actually think Prince Ahmet is a more convincing humanistic Templar than Haytham (who at the end of day is really a thug with more eloquence than Borgia).

ACfan443
02-22-2015, 09:17 PM
I honestly think Venice looks pretty ugly in AC2 due to terrible filter which makes everything look washed out.

Yeah, bit of a weird artistic choice considering no filter Venice looks objectively better and closer to its true life counterpart. During the Leonardo's Flying Machine sequence the filter is momentarily switched off and a warmer, more vibrant colour scheme is applied during dusk for a couple of missions, unveiling Venice's true form:


http://youtu.be/Epe8AhjoKNk

Watch from 12:10 onwards


Anyway, I prefer Constantinople/Istanbul, the combination of art direction, music, and atmosphere gives it the edge. Exploration is a key factor in determining how well a city holds up, and as graphically stellar as Paris is that was one of its shortfalls, boring to explore in my experience.

VestigialLlama4
02-22-2015, 09:22 PM
Every AC game is fiction. Ubi can take ridiculous liberties if it suits them and they did it multiple times

Again thank you for stating the obvious facts, many people here struggle to remember them and you are doing a good public service by mentioning them.

Xstantin
02-22-2015, 09:26 PM
Again thank you for stating the obvious facts, many people here struggle to remember them and you are doing a good public service by mentioning them.

Pffftt you're the one having a problem with that. Anti-revolutionary, oh, audacity

dimbismp
02-22-2015, 09:28 PM
Look here is wikipedia: The name İstanbul (Turkish pronunciation: [isˈtanbuɫ] ( listen), colloquially [ɯsˈtambuɫ]) is commonly held to derive from the Medieval Greek phrase "εἰς τὴν Πόλιν" (pronounced [is tim ˈbolin]), which means "to the city".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Istanbul#Toponymy

It was a common name for ages before the Ottoman Turks took over, it's a name given by the people, you know people call philadelphia, Philly and so on.

Man,you may be right,but the world Instanbul is clearly an Ottoman name.The Byzantines called the city Constantinoupoli or jus Poli,which means city,because it was the greatest city in the world during the middle ages




Look, I don't want to turn this into a culture issue debate (I have started separate threads for that in other pages) but the Byzantine Empire was no more "native" than anyone else. They were the former Eastern Roman Empire obsessed with recapturing old glory and built itself by brutally sacking Italy and other parts of Europe and reducing it to rubble, many of their citizens were slaves (Venice traded with them) and they had guards of mercenaries from all over the world (including Vikings who left runes in Hagia Sophia). It was no innocent backwoods land. By the time the medieval ages happened, it was sacked once by the Catholic Crusaders (As per AC lore, Altair was there when that happened) and reduced to former glory and had to rely on local mercenaries from Anatolia, you know Ottomans who gradually rose to power. And like all union movements they decided to get together and take over management. The Ottomans were as much a part of the Byzantine Empire as anyone else and weren't outsiders or invaders, other people saw them like that because they were Muslims(who the West continues to see as "The Other" even if they pretty much invented Spain).

Look,i know all these facts,but you are really biased here.Ofc the byzantines commited many bad things,but so did the ottomans and all the empires.
But you are wrong saying the Byzantines were not native.They were living there for 1100 years.If this is not native,then what is the definition of native for you?And when i am saying Byzantines,i am not referring to every single man of the empire,but the people who lived near that area and had the Byzantine culture.
Also,you seem confused about the Romans and the Byzantines.The Byzantines may have been the continuation of Romans and they may have referred themselves as Romans until their demise,but in reality they were really different.They spoke Greek and they were Christians,while the Romans spoke Latin and believed to the ancient greek/roman gods.

Also,the ottomans were never part of the empire.They came from the far east around 1200 iirc.That's 900 after the founding of the East Roman,later evolved in Byzantine Empire.

So,anyway,as a greek,i feel really insulted with the portrayal of the Byzantines in ACR.They were portrayed as the bad guys that wanted to take Instanbul/Constantinople from the good and holy Ottomans,as if they were some random invaders or something.And no,the Templars may have been led by an Ottoman,but the Byzantine soldiers were real,trying to recapture their homeland. [/QUOTE]



Well it IS anti-revolutionary, there is no moaning about it, its a fact. It's packed full of lies. But you know REVELATIONS was actually responsible for a rare positive portrayal of Ottoman Turkey and Istanbul where other media shows them as full of harem girls, Darby McDevitt deserves credit for that.
Well,ofc ACU is anti-revolutionary.What i am saying is that everyone forgot the treatment of Byzantines in Acr

VestigialLlama4
02-22-2015, 09:31 PM
Pffftt you're the one having a problem with that. Anti-revolutionary, oh, audacity

Oh I am not the only one. Here's The Escapsit:
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/video-games/columns/criticalintel/12639-Assassin-s-Creed-Unity-Doesn-t-Reflect-The-French-Revolution

And there's this nice youtube channel History Respawned which interviews an actual historian who pretty much admits that the game is right-wing. The city's portrayal of Paris by the way is not all that accurate as he points out:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r47yZIYBUzc

SixKeys
02-22-2015, 09:35 PM
Not to get too much into politics, but I don't really understand why it's such a scandal even IF Unity is more right-wing, considering AC2 and ACB were ragingly left-wing. AC is supposed to show different perspectives, after all, and it's not always necessarily a reflection on the devs' personal political opinions.

Shahkulu101
02-22-2015, 09:41 PM
Not to get too much into politics, but I don't really understand why it's such a scandal even IF Unity is more right-wing, considering AC2 and ACB were ragingly left-wing. AC is supposed to show different perspectives, after all, and it's not always necessarily a reflection on the devs' personal political opinions.

The problem is, to take the right-wing approach they did with Unity, they had to skew the facts considerably.

Not to mention Unity completely ignores the plight of the common French people and tries to evoke sympathy for the King and all the other Aristocrats who couldn't care less about people starving on the streets as they squandered France's money on feasts and lavish parties. Not all the aristocrats were like that, and not all of the peasants were innocent - but Unity throws moderation out the window and is laughably one sided.

Xstantin
02-22-2015, 09:43 PM
Not to get too much into politics

Yeah, I'm not gonna continue cause it went OT

Megas_Doux
02-22-2015, 09:44 PM
Oh no, not this again........

I dont know why, but I will intervene: almost EVERY assassins creed game to date has taken liberties regarding architecture or story. Acre did not look way back when the way it was portrayed in the game. The Baroque-esque ACB version of Rome did not happen until almost a century later. Monteriggionni was not invaded in 1500 and SO ON. That┤s why, the following disclaimer is seen every time you play all these games

"Work of fiction BASED on historical facts"

Back on topic. I don┤t know how much responsibility Amancio had in regards of choosing the settings, but there are some similarities between those two cities/games and their portrayal:

1 Old, big cities with dense urban environments. The most crowded ones in the franchise.
2 Both cities consist -mostly- of two areas separated by a big water mass.
3 You can distinguish between rich/ ruling class and poor/working class areas quite easily.
4 Closely related to the first point: No horses :(

PD Good find! by ACFan, that blue filter will haunt me forever haha.

BananaBlighter
02-22-2015, 09:45 PM
WHAT!!! Sorry, I just don't think that Constantinople was that great. I mean, just as a city its close, and I'd probably say Paris, but taking in to consideration how alive the city's feel, the lighting and graphics in both games, Constantinople doesn't come close. Oh yeah and I think and hope that London can top it if they pull of that murky industrial atmosphere right...and add an epic train system :) #Thomasthetankengine https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XvqeOolfB-s

aL_____eX
02-22-2015, 09:46 PM
Not to mention Unity completely ignores the plight of the common French people and tries to evoke sympathy for the King and all the other Aristocrats who couldn't care less about people starving on the streets as squandered France's money on feasts and lavish parties. Not all the aristocrats were like that, and not all of the peasants were innocent - but Unity throws moderation out the window and is laughably one sided.
That's happens when you try to hard to catch the spirit of the French Revolution without going into depth. And that's exactly what Unity did (wrong). Because there was still a second story to be told, the story of Arno. And both together in one game were an even bigger disappointment.

VestigialLlama4
02-22-2015, 09:46 PM
Man,you may be right,but the world Instanbul is clearly an Ottoman name.

It is so much an Ottoman name that they only started using it after the collapse of the Ottoman Empire. Officially the Ottomans continued to call it "Konstantiniye" right until the collapse in World War One. It was the modern Turkish nationalism that gave the official name of the city its colloquial name and they did that in 1930.


But you are wrong saying the Byzantines were not native.They were living there for 1100 years.If this is not native,then what is the definition of native for you?And when i am saying Byzantines,i am not referring to every single man of the empire,but the people who lived near that area and had the Byzantine culture.

And those people included the Anatolians and the Turkmen (who converted to Islam much later) and lived in the same Empire. The point is as a Greek speaking Empire, it was not really native to Asia Minor and the many different peoples living there. It conquered that land by force (courtesy Megalexandros).


So,anyway,as a greek,i feel really insulted with the portrayal of the Byzantines in ACR.They were portrayed as the bad guys that wanted to take Instanbul/Constantinople from the good and holy Ottomans,as if they were some random invaders or something.And no,the Templars may have been led by an Ottoman,but the Byzantine soldiers were real,trying to recapture their homeland.

So why are they supporting an Ottoman Prince's claim to the throne, I mean if they are that dumb to believe that a Turkish Prince will give its prize city to a bunch of lost-cause exiles...well if I were Greek I'd prefer the game's neo-Byzantines to be cynical and evil than stupid. In any case, Greeks lived in Turkey for ages after the Conquest, it was only with 20th Century nationalism and the population exchange of the 20s with Anatolian Greeks being kicked out, that the divisions sharpened. Many of the Greeks preferred living in the Ottoman Empire since they still had memories of having been backstabbed by the Catholic Church during the Crusades (whose main purpose was to destroy the Eastern Roman Empire in favor of Western Europe).


Well,ofc ACU is anti-revolutionary.What i am saying is that everyone forgot the treatment of Byzantines in Acr

I complain about the treatment of Rodrigo Borgia (he was the most religiously tolerant Pope of his age) and he got a far worse deal than the Byzantines in ACR.

VestigialLlama4
02-22-2015, 10:05 PM
I don┤t know how much responsibility Amancio had in regards of choosing the settings, but there are some similarities between those two cities/games and their portrayal:

I don't think game directors after Patrice Desilets had much input in the games to be honest. Even Desilets quit midway into Brotherhood, which I always saw was a protest at losing control over the series. As for the similarities between Revelations and Paris, I see it as more in terms of returning to the European monument-heavy setting of the Ezio games than anything else.


1 Old, big cities with dense urban environments. The most crowded ones in the franchise.
2 Both cities consist -mostly- of two areas separated by a big water mass.

There's a huge difference, the water-mass in Revelations is the Golden Horn, which makes the top (Galata Area) a separate Island to itself. Paris has smaller rivers with landmasses connected by bridges, which makes it closer to ROMA where The Tevere River likewise dived different parts of the city and connected it with bridges.


3 You can distinguish between rich/ ruling class and poor/working class areas quite easily.

This is true of all the AC games. I mean already in AC1 you had each city categorized by Class (rich-poor-middle). In AC2, Ezio after losing his family has to hide out in a brothel in a slum area of Florence. I mean this isn't anything smart, its common to all good open-world games. BROTHERHOOD likewise has the Mercato, Forum and Campagna area being more rundown than the Centro and Vatican district.


4 Closely related to the first point: No horses :(

I wish they put horses in UNITY but given the way they handled crowds it's funny. You know that audio link above with the historian mentions that Paris during the Revolution was filled with horse carriages and taxi carriages, and it actually created a lot of traffic jams and police reports complained about breaking fights between cab drivers and passengers and cab drivers and each other (you know, totally not like today). The game's portrayal of vast packed crowds is not really true of the time at all.

dimbismp
02-22-2015, 10:06 PM
^ So,if the name Instanbul was invented during the 20th century,what was your initial point?The name of the city during that time was Constantinople,while the Ottomans used a slightly altered version of that name.


No,the Ottomans never were part of the empire.The region of Anatolia used to be part of the Byzantine Empire.It was conquered by the Seljuks at the 11th century,while the Ottomans arrived around the 13th century.Both were Turkish tribes that came from the East.They were not part of the Empire and they were not natives to Anatolia,let alone Byzantiim.
Obviously the Eastern Romans were not native to Byzantium.But they lived there for a millenium.So,according to you,after this huge amount of time,they were still not natives?

Finally,i believe that the ingame Byzantines were not aware that Manuel qas a Templar and his Grand Master was the Ottoman prince.They must have thought that Manuel is truly trying to restore the Empire

VestigialLlama4
02-22-2015, 10:11 PM
Finally,i believe that the ingame Byzantines were not aware that Manuel qas a Templar and his Grand Master was the Ottoman prince.They must have thought that Manuel is truly trying to restore the Empire

Didn't you see the part after Manuel Palaialogos dies, and Selim greets Ezio by boat, he has Byzantine Soldiers by his sides. Even at the end when Ezio meets Selim about Sofia, it's Byzantines he fights. Those Byzantines answer to Prince Selim. And well before that, when Ezio enters the Tombs, they keep talking about the "Grand Master" so they aren't truly Byzantines. Ironically the only one who might have been clueless is Shahkulu, a Kurdish rebel who would not take kindly to be taking orders from an Ottoman Prince.

The Janissaries HATE Selim, since their leader Tarik Berleti (who is of Greek origin by the way) does, so there's no Templars in their ranks.


So,if the name Instanbul was invented during the 20th century,what was your initial point?

My point is that Istanbul was always the slang nickname for the city, even in the Middle Ages, even during the Byzantine era. That's why the line "Yusuf Tazim da Istanbul" states.

Perk89
02-22-2015, 10:17 PM
Lol at the utter and complete panic that ensues every time a game takes a right-ist agenda.

Seriously man, nobody cares. Stop drowning us in your politics.

SixKeys
02-22-2015, 10:19 PM
The problem is, to take the right-wing approach they did with Unity, they had to skew the facts considerably.


Not denying this, but are you saying it isn't skewing the facts considerably to claim capitalism was a Templar invention and that the Bush administration invaded Iraq due to a Templar plot, like ACB did?

VestigialLlama4
02-22-2015, 10:20 PM
Seriously man, nobody cares. Stop drowning us in your politics.

Assassin's Creed games do deal with politics:



Alta´r: I've never been one for politics.
Jabal: But surely you realize your every action shapes the course of this land's future. You are a politician too, in your own way.
- ASSASSIN'S CREED


That's from AC1, so its part of the "core" of the Franchise to all the people who think AC2 and the Kenway games gave the Franchise cooties which Unity somehow dropped.

Perk89
02-22-2015, 10:29 PM
Assassin's Creed games do deal with politics:



That's from AC1, so its part of the "core" of the Franchise to all the people who think AC2 and the Kenway games gave the Franchise cooties which Unity somehow dropped.


We aren't talking about politicos. We are talking about you not shutting up about politics.
Where were you during the earlier games when they took a leftist stance? I didn't see you here then, drowning us in this.

JustPlainQuirky
02-22-2015, 10:36 PM
>enters thread
>sees topic is about left and right wing politics

Well then.


the Bush administration invaded Iraq due to a Templar plot

this always pissed me off

its like if you dont agree with someone's political views thats fine but you dont have to paint them as villainous

jesus

Shahkulu101
02-22-2015, 10:39 PM
Not denying this, but are you saying it isn't skewing the facts considerably to claim capitalism was a Templar invention and that the Bush administration invaded Iraq due to a Templar plot, like ACB did?

Obviously it is, but none of that is supposed to be based on fact. The historical part of the games is supposed to be historical fiction that is grounded in the facts to some extent. That's why we couldn't have an AC game in which the Borgia's are saints.

Unity skews historical fact in a ridiculous manner to support it's pro-royalist agenda. That sort of stance on the French Revolution is laughed off by historians, even Ubisoft's historical consultant told them to alter the script. Not only does it fail as a historical fiction, it is offensive to those suffered under the oppressive regime and gave their lives for the revolution. Apart from the cafe's, the common people of Paris are not represented in a positive light at all and instead they are all lumped into the category of bloodthirsty hounds who harass the innocent, upstanding upper classes. That's just poor historical representation, and AC has always strived to represent history in the best way possible.

Unity is the only game that fails at that. This isn't me being a bleeding heart liberal, I lean to the right on quite a few political issues - but to fully support the aristocracy and slander the other 96% of France is a HUGE extremity.

VestigialLlama4
02-22-2015, 10:40 PM
We aren't talking about politicos. We are talking about you not shutting up about politics.
Where were you during the earlier games when they took a leftist stance? I didn't see you here then, drowning us in this.

I didn't know about the forums back then, I only discovered the games in the last three years. In any case politics is more than being simply left or right. When I said UNITY was right-wing, I mean that as an insult not to right-wingers but generally to its visibly simplistic bias that can only entertain or appeal to people who are ignorant of the complexities of the historical event. The earlier games made people aware of complexities and send them to history books, this game doesn't, the more facts you know the more absurd the story becomes.

There are games which are right-wing and are good, like the Bioshock games for instance and Unity could have been a decent game if it wasn't so absurdly one-dimensional that it makes books like Scarlet Pimpernel or Tale of Two Cities read like pro-Revolutionary pamphlets.

JustPlainQuirky
02-22-2015, 10:42 PM
here are games which are right-wing and are good, like the Bioshock games for instance

are you kidding me?

if you think that you have completely missed the message of bioshock and bioshock infinite

both games represent the harms of extreme freedom and extreme strictness

by no means is it biased to one political view

jesus

Xstantin
02-22-2015, 10:46 PM
are you kidding me?

if you think that you have completely missed the message of bioshock and bioshock infinite

both games represent the harms of extreme freedom and extreme strictness

by no means is it biased to one political view

jesus

Agreed. Also I've been losing sleep for years cause Harry Potter promotes anarchy and hates the middle class

JustPlainQuirky
02-22-2015, 10:47 PM
Never read Harry Potter.

Was raised with those parents who believed it was the devil's work, lmfao

but now were waaays off-topic.

really wish Havana was on the poll. Tis my fav

aL_____eX
02-22-2015, 10:50 PM
There are games which are right-wing and are good, like the Bioshock games for instance
Please what?

Xstantin
02-22-2015, 10:50 PM
Tis my fav
Too much yellow there

JustPlainQuirky
02-22-2015, 10:51 PM
the bioshock franchise is my ultimate favorite franchise when it comes to unique themes and presentation

they are the opposite of one-sided

except bio 2

but we don't talk about bio 2


Too much yellow there

lmfao true

Megas_Doux
02-22-2015, 10:52 PM
This is true of all the AC games. I mean already in AC1 you had each city categorized by Class (rich-poor-middle). In AC2, Ezio after losing his family has to hide out in a brothel in a slum area of Florence. I mean this isn't anything smart, its common to all good open-world games. BROTHERHOOD likewise has the Mercato, Forum and Campagna area being more rundown than the Centro and Vatican district.

.


The games in which you can see that difference the most are, to me:

1 AC I
2 AC U
3 AC R.
4 ACB to a lesser extent.

In AC II, AC III and AC IV -have not played Rogue- of course you can see some differences between them, but is not the same scenario of upper class vs slum. I mean, Florence -as every other city in AC II with the exception of probably Venice- Havana, Boston and New York are rather homogeneous. By that I mean that NPC┤s and building archetypes -not landmarks- can be seen equally distributed in the map. That does not occur with the ones above, you wont see a wooden shack in Le Marais or baroque Palace in La bievre, neither a big house in the Constantine district nor a poor house near where Sofia lives.

The element is present, but I think the games I listed do a better job.

aL_____eX
02-22-2015, 10:53 PM
the bioshock franchise is my ultimate favorite franchise when it comes to unique themes and presentation

they are the opposite of one-sided



lmfao true
+ Bioshock Infinite is more of a parody on American patriotism than 'propaganda'.


Anyway, I'm stopping here.

Havana was great. But I think I liked Kingston more.

VestigialLlama4
02-22-2015, 10:54 PM
are you kidding me?

if you think that you have completely missed the message of bioshock and bioshock infinite

both games represent the harms of extreme freedom and extreme strictness

Well that's the point, "extreme freedom and extreme strictness", its the nature of right-wing (and by this I mean OId Conservative or Classical Liberal) to concieve of itself as opposed to what they consider as extremism. The Bioshock games regards ideology itself as extremism. So the first game you had this parody of Ayn Rand's objectivism but even there Andrew Ryan is a lot more sympathetic than the bad guy. The second game has this revolutionary event that it portrays as extremist and it got accused of being too skewed and racist, so Ken Levine fixed it in the DLC.


by no means is it biased to one political view

That's because it's a good game, and it has aspects that appeals to smart people, so it doesn't appear too skewed. But the basic idea there is that people who commit themselves too much to causes are morons and the main thing is to be a wait-and-see guy.

Shahkulu101
02-22-2015, 10:55 PM
I only played Bioshock Infinite and everything was crap except the location and even then I was playing on PS3 where the graphics were horrendous.

JustPlainQuirky
02-22-2015, 10:58 PM
That's because it's a good game, and it has aspects that appeals to smart people, so it doesn't appear too skewed. But the basic idea there is that people who commit themselves too much to causes are morons and the main thing is to be a wait-and-see guy.

and this moral applies to both left wingers and right wingers

extreme ANYTHING is bad.

infinite was expressing dangers of extreme conservative views while original bioshock warned of extreme liberal views

Megas_Doux
02-22-2015, 10:59 PM
Politics aside, I think Ubi "listened" to all those "forrest gump" complaints AC III got and headed towards opposite scenario. With way worse results.....

Shahkulu101
02-22-2015, 11:06 PM
and this moral applies to both left wingers and right wingers

extreme ANYTHING is bad.

infinite was expressing dangers of extreme conservative views while original bioshock warned of extreme liberal views

This is why I don't think Bioshock is all that.

The messages it sends are all extremely obvious and safe. Oh really extremism is bad? Why...w-what a revelation!

And infinite also has the whole clichÚd multiple universe thing to make itself seem interesting and complex when really it's just an easy cop-out for pseudo-intellectuals to latch onto.

JustPlainQuirky
02-22-2015, 11:09 PM
The messages it sends are all extremely obvious and safe. Oh really extremism is bad? Why...w-what a revelation!


to be fair, it at least strays from the stereotypical video game themes of revenge/redempton with handsome/georgous protagonist who loved ones die overtime

and the presentation/asthetic is so well-done that it feels unique in its own right

VestigialLlama4
02-22-2015, 11:16 PM
In AC II, AC III and AC IV -have not played Rogue- of course you can see some differences between them, but is not the same scenario of upper class vs slum.

Well in AC3, you can tell that Boston is a Middle District where the Docks are a little more run down. Then New York (which has a lot of fancy buildings) has both a rich district (since its a city that's under British control for much of the game and so has access to London money) while the totally run down Great Fire section is the poor section. In BLACK FLAG, Havana is the richest of the three cities while Nassau is clearly the poorest and Kingston is a Middle District.


I mean, Florence -as every other city in AC II with the exception of probably Venice- Havana, Boston and New York are rather homogeneous. By that I mean that NPC┤s and building archetypes -not landmarks- can be seen equally distributed in the map. That does not occur with the ones above, you wont see a wooden shack in Le Marais or baroque Palace in La bievre, neither a big house in the Constantine district nor a poor house near where Sofia lives.

The element is present, but I think the games I listed do a better job.

That may be so but I don't know if being blatantly obvious ought to be regarded as sign of a good job when its more interesting to put the clues and let gamers think and figure out the economy of a map section. In real life there's no pure rich or poor or middle area it's all a jumble, and in a medieval city like AC1 and the Ezio games, all the classes had a commonality of life (they all rode horses and used chamberpots and so on). With Florence the interesting thing is that you can see all the rich buildings around the Duomo(including Ezio's House) but on the edges and the outskirts, towards the city gates you have poor areas. So you know the city is centered for the convenience of the wealthy whose buildings are closer to each other for them to walk, so the city hall (where Ezio's folks get executed) is close to the Palazzo Medici is close to the Domo, while also close to the Bridge that goes to the region of the Bonfire of the Vanities.

VestigialLlama4
02-22-2015, 11:25 PM
infinite was expressing dangers of extreme conservative views while original bioshock warned of extreme liberal views

Well technically Andrew Ryan's views are (neo)conservative, he built Rapture to get away from Roosevelt's New Deal and social welfare. Infinite portrays an underclass liberal with parody and even has Elizabeth stating that the leader and comstock are the same and the like (BS which Ken Levine retconned).


I think Ubi "listened" to all those "forrest gump" complaints AC III got and headed towards opposite scenario.

Well all the games have the Forrest Gump element. Black Flag had it, the Ezio games had it, even AC1 when Altair goes to confront Robert de Sable and has a Trial by Combat before Richard the Lionheart.

Megas_Doux
02-23-2015, 12:07 AM
Well all the games have the Forrest Gump element. Black Flag had it, the Ezio games had it, even AC1 when Altair goes to confront Robert de Sable and has a Trial by Combat before Richard the Lionheart.

AC III is by far the worst offender story and mostly gameplay wise. AC I has only one big example, whereas AC III:

1 Being Paul revere┤s personal chauffeur, worst mission EVER.
2 Throw boxes into the sea and the reason why that of "people dressed as native americans".
3 Being an indirect cause of the Boston massacre.
4 Giving orders by horse on the Lexington and Concord battles.
5 Connor meeting Washington on the continental congress because.......
6 Changing the course of the revolution by commanding the french forces at Battle Chesapeake.
7 The battler Breed hill/bunker hill.
8 Battle of Monmouth.
9 The great Fire was New York was said to be in the game, but ended up being removed due to technical problems with the NPC┤s and such.

My BIGGEST problem is how linear that stuff was, though.

Perk89
02-23-2015, 12:22 AM
Eh, you guys look at it the wrong way. I look at it from the perspective that part of the reason these Assassins were legendary is because they were there for those moments. Not that those moments were legendary because they were there.

AC3 did cross the line a little bit, but as long as it's not an every game thing I can accept that Connor was just that awesome. Unity was the opposite extreme, where the setting rarely mattered. Which, btw, makes me wonder how future Assassins will rationalize his robes in the legacy outfit trophy room or whatever.

New Initiate: Oh! These are cool, what are these?
Mentor: These are the robes of the legendary Mentor Altair Ibn La-Ahad, who revolutionized the order's thinking and tactics!
NI: Ohh and these?!
M: These are a replica of the Master Assassin Ezio Auditore Da Firenze! Perhaps the greatest Assassin of them all!
NI: Woooooww. And what about these?
M: Those are to look like Connor Kenway's Master Assassin robes! Who single handedly defeatedly the colonial Templars and redeemed the Order and made them a fierce force in the new world!
NI: And what of those?
M: These are his grandfather's! Edward Kenway's! The renewed Assassin who brushed shoulders with the likes of Blackbeard and found the Observatory!
NI: Wow that's cool. And then this blue one?
M: Well, we don't know really know about that guy. These just kind of showed up. He had a girlfriend or something.

Perk89
02-23-2015, 12:25 AM
Eh, you guys look at it the wrong way. I look at it from the perspective that part of the reason these Assassins were legendary is because they were there for those moments. Not that those moments were legendary because they were there.

AC3 did cross the line a little bit, but as long as it's not an every game thing I can accept that Connor was just that awesome. Unity was the opposite extreme, where the setting rarely mattered. Which, btw, makes me wonder how future Assassins will rationalize his robes in the legacy outfit trophy room or whatever.

New Initiate: Oh! These are cool, what are these?
Mentor: These are the robes of the legendary Mentor Altair Ibn La-Ahad, who revolutionized the order's thinking and tactics!
NI: Ohh and these?!
M: These are a replica of the Master Assassin Ezio Auditore Da Firenze! Perhaps the greatest Assassin of them all!
NI: Woooooww. And what about these?
M: Those are to look like Connor Kenway's Master Assassin robes! Who single handedly defeatedly the colonial Templars and redeemed the Order and made them a fierce force in the new world!
NI: And what of those?
M: These are his grandfather's! Edward Kenway's! The renewed Assassin who brushed shoulders with the likes of Blackbeard and found the Observatory!
NI: Wow that's cool. And then this blue one?
M: Well, we don't know really know about that guy. These just kind of showed up. He had a girlfriend or something.

Assassin_M
02-23-2015, 12:31 AM
AC III is by far the worst offender story and mostly gameplay wise. AC I has only one big example, whereas AC III:

1 Being Paul revere┤s personal chauffeur, worst mission EVER.
2 Throw boxes into the sea and the reason why that of "people dressed as native americans".
3 Being an indirect cause of the Boston massacre.
4 Giving orders by horse on the Lexington and Concord battles.
5 Connor meeting Washington on the continental congress because.......
6 Changing the course of the revolution by commanding the french forces at Battle Chesapeake.
7 The battler Breed hill/bunker hill.
8 Battle of Monmouth.
9 The great Fire was New York was said to be in the game, but ended up being removed due to technical problems with the NPC┤s and such.

My BIGGEST problem is how linear that stuff was, though.
These weren't bad because they were there, SOME of them were bad because they made for terrible missions. Tea party, Chesapeake and Bunker Hill were great missions. I also explained how some of these historical events could have been done better, like Revere's ride. From a narrative standpoint, Connor's presence in all these important events was necessary and it made sense. Here's your country, a revolution happens and your people have no voice. You need to get involved to give your people a voice and keep up with what's going on. At first, I was like you in thinking that shoving Connor into events like the signing of the declaration and meeting GW was unnecessary and contrived but in retrospect, it made sense and was necessary. Arguing whether or not it could have been done better narrative wise and design wise is another story, to which I say: Yes, it could have been done much better.

JustPlainQuirky
02-23-2015, 12:33 AM
As much as I love AC3 and find it the best in terms of story, seeing Connor in the room during the signing of the Declaration of Independence always makes me burst out laughing.

Megas_Doux
02-23-2015, 01:25 AM
These weren't bad because they were there, SOME of them were bad because they made for terrible missions. Tea party, Chesapeake and Bunker Hill were great missions. I also explained how some of these historical events could have been done better, like Revere's ride. From a narrative standpoint, Connor's presence in all these important events was necessary and it made sense. Here's your country, a revolution happens and your people have no voice. You need to get involved to give your people a voice and keep up with what's going on. At first, I was like you in thinking that shoving Connor into events like the signing of the declaration and meeting GW was unnecessary and contrived but in retrospect, it made sense and was necessary. Arguing whether or not it could have been done better narrative wise and design wise is another story, to which I say: Yes, it could have been done much better.

I agree, linearity was its worst sin.




As much as I love AC3 and find it the best in terms of story, seeing Connor in the room during the signing of the Declaration of Independence always makes me burst out laughing.

Indeed haha.

The biggest problem I have with AC U, story and narrative wise, is that Arno just doesn┤t give a rip about the freaking revolution and ALL the changes brought by it, at least in the main campaign, where he seems just unconnected to it., zero empathy.....
Let┤s face it, that setting had TONS of potential for a great "historic" story, yet Arno┤s purpose is to find out who killed de la Serre and being with Elise, nothing more. Adding a further insult to injury, the love story is not that good either. It began solidly, with a good acting, but then the plot disappears and finally there is the ending in which NOTHING is explained.

In AC I the templars want to restrict freedom and so they have to die, as simple as that, however you see some grey tones about it and thus Altair hesitates in the end. Then we have Ezio┤s one, which was rather cliche in every conceivable way, it was not about why the templars must be put to rest, but pure vengeance only. However its narrative was better and the exhaustion factor was not present as well.
Even though I┤m not pretty fond of Connor due to my dislike for his VA, the story is nice and aside from its super linearity, it plays well with the setting. Finally there is Edward, my favorite one for it had NOTHING to do with daddy issues and such. He was a pirate who became randomly involved in the everlasting conflict and left it being a better man in the process.

Assassin_M
02-23-2015, 01:55 AM
I agree, linearity was its worst sin.
Not even that, some linear levels can be great but it's just the design itself. It's so boring and bland.

JustPlainQuirky
02-23-2015, 01:57 AM
The biggest problem I have with AC U, story and narrative wise, is that Arno just doesn┤t give a rip about the freaking revolution and ALL the changes brought by it, at least in the main campaign, where he seems just unconnected to it., zero empathy.....
Let┤s face it, that setting had TONS of potential for a great "historic" story, yet Arno┤s purpose is to find out who killed de la Serre and being with Elise, nothing more. Adding a further insult to injury, the love story is not that good either. It began solidly, with a good acting, but then the plot disappears and finally there is the ending in which NOTHING is explained.

I agree

Ubi wasnt kidding when the revolution would be just a background

SixKeys
02-23-2015, 03:03 AM
Obviously it is, but none of that is supposed to be based on fact. The historical part of the games is supposed to be historical fiction that is grounded in the facts to some extent. That's why we couldn't have an AC game in which the Borgia's are saints.

You're looking at our modern times without the same lens that you afford the historical fiction. Objectively, there is no difference between a fictionalized version of events that took place 500 years ago vs. a fictionalized version of events that took place less than 10 years ago. As long as the narrative makes the scenario seem plausible, both scenarios are just as valid.

Case in point, Unity is based on historical facts. There was a French Revolution which took place in 1789, Napoleon was there, so was Marquis de Sade, people were being beheaded, etc. All that stuff is in the game. The plot is based around those facts.
Unity also takes great liberties with certain other facts, giving the story a political tint that leans heavily in a particular direction.

Now look at ACB's modern day.
It's based around certain facts. Facts like the Bush administration invading Iraq for controversial reasons and the Supreme Court having some demonstrably corrupt judges. The game takes those facts, and then takes great liberties with them, claiming that the reason for the Iraq was was machinated by a fictional secret order and the judges were working for the same order.

Oh, also the complexities behind the rise of the Nazi party in WW2 can be explained away with the simple idea that Hitler was controlled by the evil Templars. No such thing as the common German folk growing increasingly restless due to unemployment, resulting in misdirected hero worship and an explosion of already festering racist tensions. It was all because of this fictional order which used one man as a puppet and magically took control of an entire country.
Isn't that pretty offensive too? Absolving people of all responsibility by making up a fake reason why these horrible things really happened? What is really the difference between portraying a complex man like Robespierre as evil vs. portraying a complex man like Machiavelli as an upstanding citizen?

Unity twists certain facts to suit its narrative, yes, but so do AC2 and ACB. So do all AC games. It's hypocritical to claim Unity is somehow worse than the others just because the fiction it weaves leans more heavily on the other end of the political spectrum than previous games.

Shahkulu101
02-23-2015, 03:34 AM
You're looking at our modern times without the same lens that you afford the historical fiction. Objectively, there is no difference between a fictionalized version of events that took place 500 years ago vs. a fictionalized version of events that took place less than 10 years ago. As long as the narrative makes the scenario seem plausible, both scenarios are just as valid.

Case in point, Unity is based on historical facts. There was a French Revolution which took place in 1789, Napoleon was there, so was Marquis de Sade, people were being beheaded, etc. All that stuff is in the game. The plot is based around those facts.
Unity also takes great liberties with certain other facts, giving the story a political tint that leans heavily in a particular direction.

Now look at ACB's modern day.
It's based around certain facts. Facts like the Bush administration invading Iraq for controversial reasons and the Supreme Court having some demonstrably corrupt judges. The game takes those facts, and then takes great liberties with them, claiming that the reason for the Iraq was was machinated by a fictional secret order and the judges were working for the same order.

Oh, also the complexities behind the rise of the Nazi party in WW2 can be explained away with the simple idea that Hitler was controlled by the evil Templars. No such thing as the common German folk growing increasingly restless due to unemployment, resulting in misdirected hero worship and an explosion of already festering racist tensions. It was all because of this fictional order which used one man as a puppet and magically took control of an entire country.
Isn't that pretty offensive too? Absolving people of all responsibility by making up a fake reason why these horrible things really happened? What is really the difference between portraying a complex man like Robespierre as evil vs. portraying a complex man like Machiavelli as an upstanding citizen?

Unity twists certain facts to suit its narrative, yes, but so do AC2 and ACB. So do all AC games. It's hypocritical to claim Unity is somehow worse than the others just because the fiction it weaves leans more heavily on the other end of the political spectrum than previous games.

Truth be told, I was not aware of the examples in MD that you mentioned because they are obsolete - a side note as to what the series actually is. A historical fiction.

However, I dislike the approach they took with those things. It's far too simple - as if a Templar can wave a magic wand and instantly assume power. In general I think they need to be more nuanced when it comes to that sort of thing. So yes I also have a problem with the representation of modern facts even if it suits a leftist political stance.

You mention that the other games take liberties, but none are as extreme and one-sided as Unity. Sure, the Borgia's weren't quite as despicably evil but they were still incredibly corrupt individuals. ACB exaggerates that fact a bit to support the idea of Ezio liberating people of their rule. A relatively minor tweak that doesn't bring the history of the time period into disrepute.

Unity on the other hand is not just an exaggeration and minor tweak. It portrays every pro-revolutionary as the bad guy and the upper classes as innocent victims. That is a massive and totally extreme alteration that is only seen in Royalist propaganda and is completely disregarded by historians. No AC has ever twisted the facts as much as Unity to suit an agenda. Not only does this make a mockery of the revolution, it's just bad writing. All concerns about it being politically skewed aside, the story is completely one-sided and black and white and ignores the potential the Revolution had to be an intriguingly ambiguous story in favour of child-like simplification. AC has always strived to make history believable and to portray the time period with as much accuracy as possible while retaining the fictional elements. Again, I say, Unity is the only one that fails. That's the main problem - even though the pro-royalist bias is a personal gripe of mine.

VestigialLlama4
02-23-2015, 03:52 AM
Ubi wasnt kidding when the revolution would be just a background

It's not even that, I mean making the revolution the background would not have been a bad thing by itself -- AC1 didn't deal with the Crusades and its battles after all (except for Arsuf where it took an iconic moment and put Altair there) but it managed to evoke that time period very well nonetheless. All the cities are clearly affected by battle, and the soldiers and heralds talk about the Crusades relentlessly. If they wanted to avoid going into detail it could have done that, but even the background is false.


It's hypocritical to claim Unity is somehow worse than the others just because the fiction it weaves leans more heavily on the other end of the political spectrum than previous games.

No one is talking 100% realism here. Every AC game before UNITY basically took a popular well known period and showed it with a truer picture than other depictions in popular culture.

AC1 is a rare occassion of showing the Crusades from the perspective of the Arab point of view, AC2 gave us a gay DaVinci and a good guy Machiavelli, REVELATIONS showed Ottoman Turkey and Istanbul more positively than any other popular depictions, AC3 is truer to history than Mel Gibson's The Patriot, BLACK FLAG is truer to the Pirate era than Johnny Depp. The fact is I am applying standards to video games which is a young medium that's stepping baby toes into complex storytelling.

All UNITY had to do was be more accurate than Scarlet Pimpernel or A Tale of Two Cities, that's all. Fairly rational standards and simple goals. Those two books are fairly biased politically in one direction but they are good books and stories that are enjoyable on its own terms and they have inspired most of the knowledge general readers have about the historical event. And somehow, its way more faithful and respectful to the setting than Unity is, I mean it's that bad.

Ultimately UNITY is worse because its a terrible product all around: bad story, bad character, bad villains, forgettable music, stupid design choices and general soulessness.

marvelfannumber
02-23-2015, 06:55 AM
Also,you seem confused about the Romans and the Byzantines.The Byzantines may have been the continuation of Romans and they may have referred themselves as Romans until their demise,but in reality they were really different.They spoke Greek and they were Christians,while the Romans spoke Latin and believed to the ancient greek/roman gods.


No, not really. The term "Byzantine" derives from the 18th century when some german fart wanted to differentiate the actual Roman Empire from the Holy Roman Empire (which had nothing to do with Rome).

The only major difference really is that they spoke Greek instead of Latin as even the Western Roman Empire had Christianity as the state religion after Theodosius I. The government system and culture was also basically the same.

It would basically be like saying modern day America is a completely different country to WWII America just because of slight cultural shift, it's not accurate.

dimbismp
02-23-2015, 01:03 PM
No, not really. The term "Byzantine" derives from the 18th century when some german fart wanted to differentiate the actual Roman Empire from the Holy Roman Empire (which had nothing to do with Rome).

The only major difference really is that they spoke Greek instead of Latin as even the Western Roman Empire had Christianity as the state religion after Theodosius I. The government system and culture was also basically the same.

It would basically be like saying modern day America is a completely different country to WWII America just because of slight cultural shift, it's not accurate.
I was comparing the Byzantines with the OG Roman Empire,not the Western Roman Empire,which lasted very little.So,they had different religion.
And because christianity had a major role that time,that's why i am saying that they were different to the original romans.

dimbismp
02-23-2015, 01:15 PM
Eh, you guys look at it the wrong way. I look at it from the perspective that part of the reason these Assassins were legendary is because they were there for those moments. Not that those moments were legendary because they were there.

AC3 did cross the line a little bit, but as long as it's not an every game thing I can accept that Connor was just that awesome. Unity was the opposite extreme, where the setting rarely mattered. Which, btw, makes me wonder how future Assassins will rationalize his robes in the legacy outfit trophy room or whatever.

New Initiate: Oh! These are cool, what are these?
Mentor: These are the robes of the legendary Mentor Altair Ibn La-Ahad, who revolutionized the order's thinking and tactics!
NI: Ohh and these?!
M: These are a replica of the Master Assassin Ezio Auditore Da Firenze! Perhaps the greatest Assassin of them all!
NI: Woooooww. And what about these?
M: Those are to look like Connor Kenway's Master Assassin robes! Who single handedly defeatedly the colonial Templars and redeemed the Order and made them a fierce force in the new world!
NI: And what of those?
M: These are his grandfather's! Edward Kenway's! The renewed Assassin who brushed shoulders with the likes of Blackbeard and found the Observatory!
NI: Wow that's cool. And then this blue one?
M: Well, we don't know really know about that guy. These just kind of showed up. He had a girlfriend or something.
Man,you are unfair here.As the series progress,the assassins become less and less important.Edward was also a nobody,just like Arno.He found the Observatory due to his own greed and also the fact that he fought side by side with Blackbeard means nothing for the Assassins.
Similarly,i could say hat Arno was a "friend" with Napoleon(who is a much more important figure than Blackbeard),that was trained by legendary assassin Pierre Bellec,and that he eradicated the Templar Order,in the midst of a chaotic revolution.

marvelfannumber
02-23-2015, 01:20 PM
I was comparing the Byzantines with the OG Roman Empire,not the Western Roman Empire,which lasted very little.So,they had different religion.
And because christianity had a major role that time,that's why i am saying that they were different to the original romans.

Then again, the Western Roman Empire is seen by most scholars as the continuation of the OG Roman Empire and still referred to as Roman, so my point still stands

aL_____eX
02-23-2015, 01:35 PM
Paris vs Constantinople - Which is the best AC city?

Just saying... :rolleyes:

SixKeys
02-23-2015, 02:55 PM
Truth be told, I was not aware of the examples in MD that you mentioned because they are obsolete - a side note as to what the series actually is. A historical fiction.

However, I dislike the approach they took with those things. It's far too simple - as if a Templar can wave a magic wand and instantly assume power. In general I think they need to be more nuanced when it comes to that sort of thing. So yes I also have a problem with the representation of modern facts even if it suits a leftist political stance.

You mention that the other games take liberties, but none are as extreme and one-sided as Unity. Sure, the Borgia's weren't quite as despicably evil but they were still incredibly corrupt individuals. ACB exaggerates that fact a bit to support the idea of Ezio liberating people of their rule. A relatively minor tweak that doesn't bring the history of the time period into disrepute.

Unity on the other hand is not just an exaggeration and minor tweak. It portrays every pro-revolutionary as the bad guy and the upper classes as innocent victims. That is a massive and totally extreme alteration that is only seen in Royalist propaganda and is completely disregarded by historians. No AC has ever twisted the facts as much as Unity to suit an agenda. Not only does this make a mockery of the revolution, it's just bad writing. All concerns about it being politically skewed aside, the story is completely one-sided and black and white and ignores the potential the Revolution had to be an intriguingly ambiguous story in favour of child-like simplification. AC has always strived to make history believable and to portray the time period with as much accuracy as possible while retaining the fictional elements. Again, I say, Unity is the only one that fails. That's the main problem - even though the pro-royalist bias is a personal gripe of mine.

The only addendum I have is that the first pro-revolutionary that comes to my mind in Unity is Theroigne de Mericourt. She was featured in several missions and was depicted in a positive way. There may be other examples, but the plot isn't really fresh in my memory.

I can agree though that Unity's political leanings are more on the nose than AC2/ACB since the modern day political stuff was mostly in skippable side missions.

And now I'll stop hijacking the original topic. :p

VestigialLlama4
02-23-2015, 03:22 PM
The only addendum I have is that the first pro-revolutionary that comes to my mind in Unity is Theroigne de Mericourt. She was featured in several missions and was depicted in a positive way.

All of them are Co-Op Cutscenes.

ze_topazio
02-23-2015, 03:37 PM
Paris vs Constantinople thread

10 pages

2 and half pages are about the topic

7 and half pages are about something else


http://i.imgur.com/jKQeXPS.gif

SixKeys
02-23-2015, 03:44 PM
All of them are Co-Op Cutscenes.

Nope, she's also in one or two club missions or Paris stories.

Namikaze_17
02-23-2015, 05:43 PM
Paris vs Constantinople thread

10 pages

2 and half pages are about the topic

7 and half pages are about something else


You should see the Victory speculation thread at the moment. :rolleyes:

But at least its been consistent for the most part...

Over here? >__>

Altair1789
02-23-2015, 09:06 PM
Eh, you guys look at it the wrong way. I look at it from the perspective that part of the reason these Assassins were legendary is because they were there for those moments. Not that those moments were legendary because they were there.

AC3 did cross the line a little bit, but as long as it's not an every game thing I can accept that Connor was just that awesome. Unity was the opposite extreme, where the setting rarely mattered. Which, btw, makes me wonder how future Assassins will rationalize his robes in the legacy outfit trophy room or whatever.

New Initiate: Oh! These are cool, what are these?
Mentor: These are the robes of the legendary Mentor Altair Ibn La-Ahad, who revolutionized the order's thinking and tactics!
NI: Ohh and these?!
M: These are a replica of the Master Assassin Ezio Auditore Da Firenze! Perhaps the greatest Assassin of them all!
NI: Woooooww. And what about these?
M: Those are to look like Connor Kenway's Master Assassin robes! Who single handedly defeatedly the colonial Templars and redeemed the Order and made them a fierce force in the new world!
NI: And what of those?
M: These are his grandfather's! Edward Kenway's! The renewed Assassin who brushed shoulders with the likes of Blackbeard and found the Observatory!
NI: Wow that's cool. And then this blue one?
M: Well, we don't know really know about that guy. These just kind of showed up. He had a girlfriend or something.

This is honestly how I see it. I don't get what's wrong with Forrest Gump honestly. Maybe it was a bit too much in AC3, but Unity had Arno meeting more historical figures, except in small side missions. I think we should meet the historical figures in the single player missions

Fatal-Feit
02-24-2015, 01:09 AM
Both are very beautiful and are at the top of my favorite AC cities, however, in comparison, Paris wins by a milestone. =p

Paris is larger, more diverse, and is overall a better playground.

VestigialLlama4
02-25-2015, 04:59 PM
Paris is larger, more diverse, and is overall a better playground.

That's because its Next-Gen, its actually a fairly dead and lifeless environment.

I have just finished replaying REVELATIONS and Istanbul is a far superior AC city. It's much more alive, far better realized and the new additions to traversal essentially makes every nook and node of a building a vantage point.

Assassin_M
02-25-2015, 05:03 PM
its actually a fairly dead and lifeless environment.
Llama, no.

VestigialLlama4
02-25-2015, 05:13 PM
Llama, no.

Okay, tell me why is Paris not dead and lifeless?

It's mostly a city full of endless crowds. On the whole its not any more alive or distinct than any of the New World cities in the Kenway Games and you know it's less alive and far more impersonal than even AC3 Boston, where you really felt that you were in a revolutionary city. The game encourages you to spend more time on the roofs but because of the greater scale, the time it takes to climb roofs increases, which means more time wasted and in any case, it defeats the purpose of Parkour-get from A to B in less time, which makes less sense if you are spending a great deal of time climbing up Point A. There's very little incentive to be on ground level.

The game introduces interiors to its credit but again Parkouring through windows from one building to another is not a good option. The interiors and buildings are largely there to be made into fortresses and not something to be run through. Aside from Notre Dame(which it uses for a grand total of one mission), the monuments are fairly lifeless in recreation. I mean yes there are Nostradamus Puzzles to figure out but its not really alive and all that distinct. The Louvre Museum was opened during the Revolution but we hardly get to visit it and look at Leonardo's Mona Lisa(which was there at the time). And you know the game's recreation of Paris suffers greatly from the use of English accents, the fact that there's a separate vocal barrier between Arno and the crowd just doesn't work. I mean if Arno was clearly marked as an Englishman (the way Ezio is an Italian in Turkey) it would sort-of-but-not-quite work. It's just empty really. Most of the Paris Side Stories is fake-history and pure-BS and none of them feature unique character models, most of them are interchangable NPC models.

Istanbul is the superior AC city. For one thing it recreates these gorgeous monuments, architecture and distinct topography but integrates it to the gameplay. The city is arranged on a hill and various inclines which makes it the only time parachuting makes total sense as traversal and you end up using it far more regularly instead of special Achievement moments like in Brotherhood (jumping off the Castel Sant-Angelo). You jump from the top of Gul Cami or Fatih Cami, the Zeyrek Mosque, or the Valens Aqueduct and the Roman Columns at the Forum of the Ox to stay in the air while gliding through alleys and the like. In the earlier AC cities, there was this sharp divide between rooftop and street-level travel. In REVELATIONS, you spend a great deal of time on several heights, either street level, top of the pillars or minarets and basic rooftop. There's the Grand Bazaar, where a street is on the same level as a roof, since they are adjacent to different levels. It's as much fun being on the street as it is above, the bomb mechanic also allows for more crowd interactions (an innovative feature in the game's AI that was abandoned).

Shahkulu101
02-25-2015, 05:23 PM
The monuments are lifeless in recreation?

Did you not see the Pantheon? Tuileries Palace and it's surrounding gardens? Saint-chapel? The Bastille? Pretty much every landmark was crafted beautifully outside and in with meticulous detail.

Assassin_M
02-25-2015, 05:31 PM
Okay, tell me why is Paris not dead and lifeless?
It's not dead and not lifeless because of the NPC routes, there's no longer a prescribed route nor diamond groups that NPCs walk/run/jog in day in and day out. Their routes are much more randomized, making for realistic markets and gatherings. There're over 3000 new NPC behaviors which are integrated in the world, many new stations for NPC behaviors that were never in any other AC game. There's also the new grouping system where you'll see two NPCs holding hands and walking or holding arms. Some NPCs also acknowledge Arno and respond to him.

Before AC III, NPCs never actually interacted with the environment nor each other. It was always a station system, where it's all a scripted path. Since AC III, NPCs have different and contextual behaviors. You'll find someone walking, stopping at a place to clean their shoes and continue on their way. Another may stop at a pole, slightly climb it and look for someone. Another may run into a someone in the street and they'd start an argument, it may be a man and a woman and the man would flirt with her. The argument for "life" that you bring for Istanbul has a lot of irrelevant elements to what constitutes an alive world. Landmarks, Parkour and traversal are not what anyone would use for how alive a world is. You can have a world with amazing landmarks, smooth parkour and responsive traversal but if there's no crowd, it's dead. RDR's little towns are more alive than some AC cities.

it's a fact that ACU NPCs are much more advanced than ACR NPCs.

VestigialLlama4
02-25-2015, 05:44 PM
The monuments are lifeless in recreation?

Well it doesn't do anything interesting beyond simply rendering it in Next-Gen HD. Aside from the Sivert-Notre Dame level where you are invited to climb the large exterior and move through the huge interiors of the cathedral to reach a target for one scripted assassination, and again that's only one mission that does that. Otherwise, there's no sense that you are actually interacting with the whole architecture which you got in earlier games and especially in Revelations.

In any case, I was describing the city, not in terms of overall recreation of monuments but the sense of interacting with it. That interaction comes from the writing and the characterization more than the sandbox itself. And basically it just didn't feel like Paris during the Revolution or Paris at any time. The city comes alive more in the Time Anomalies sections than as a sandbox which makes me believe that the game would have been better if it simply hopped around Paris at different points in history rather than cover a period and history it has contempt for.

VestigialLlama4
02-25-2015, 06:01 PM
It's not dead and not lifeless because of the NPC routes, there's no longer a prescribed route nor diamond groups that NPCs walk/run/jog in day in and day out. Their routes are much more randomized, making for realistic markets and gatherings.

I am not sure that's realistic at all. People in real-life often have set routines where they go to work, go to market and so on at set times or the other. They also come home on the same tried-and-tested routes most of the time. And in any case when I meant lifeless I was talking about Arno's interaction with the city, since he's not really part of the events and setting, the NPC behaviour doesn't make sense being randomized as it does with say, Connor, who actually does care about other people.


The argument for "life" that you bring for Istanbul has a lot of irrelevant elements to what constitutes an alive world. Landmarks, Parkour and traversal are not what anyone would use for how alive a world is. You can have a world with amazing landmarks, smooth parkour and responsive traversal but if there's no crowd, it's dead. RDR's little towns are more alive than some AC cities.

it's a fact that ACU NPCs are much more advanced than ACR NPCs.

Well in the realm of aesthetics, there are no "facts": nothing is true, everything is permitted. UNITY has advanced technology and AI but it doesn't do anything unique or interesting with it, and the story has such a thoroughgoing tunnel-vision on the romance and the conspiracy element, that all this randomized NPC element aside from giving some spontaneously generated activities to complete (which in the end amounts to the same as scripted side-missions anyway -- I don't care if it feels more "open" if it ends up performing the same function of distraction-relief).

Compare that with Revelations bomb-system crowd-manipulation and the like. Where you have many mechanics to manipulate the NPC behaviour. Stephen Totilo (who ended up disliking Unity) did an article on Amancio's work on Revelations which he hoped would follow through in Unity.
http://kotaku.com/assassins-creed-unity-is-bringing-back-the-series-great-1596479794


The 2011 Revelations was Amancio's last Assassin's Creed game and it's the one that, more than any AC before it or after, felt to me like a cutting-edge chemistry set. From a gameplay perspective, that game was largely about how its assassin, Ezio, interacted with the crowds in Constantinople. A lot of this was enabled by the game's odd bomb system. I wrote about this in my review of Revelations:

The bombs are one of the most "next-gen" ideas this generation. They are, essentially, tools for manipulating the artificial intelligence of a crowd. They are the ultimate tool in an arsenal of tools that the Assassin's Creed series has given the player through the iteration of the franchise.

Consider the options the Assassin's Creed: Revelations player has when standing, as Ezio, on a crowded Constantinople street. Imagine that the road is full of civilians milling about, some walking, some selling their wares. At the far end is a trio of guards. Let's say Ezio wants to get to the treasure chest behind them. This is not a storyline mission. It's just an opportunity in a city dense with them.

Shahkulu101
02-25-2015, 06:07 PM
Well it doesn't do anything interesting beyond simply rendering it in Next-Gen HD. Aside from the Sivert-Notre Dame level where you are invited to climb the large exterior and move through the huge interiors of the cathedral to reach a target for one scripted assassination, and again that's only one mission that does that. Otherwise, there's no sense that you are actually interacting with the whole architecture which you got in earlier games and especially in Revelations.

In any case, I was describing the city, not in terms of overall recreation of monuments but the sense of interacting with it. That interaction comes from the writing and the characterization more than the sandbox itself. And basically it just didn't feel like Paris during the Revolution or Paris at any time. The city comes alive more in the Time Anomalies sections than as a sandbox which makes me believe that the game would have been better if it simply hopped around Paris at different points in history rather than cover a period and history it has contempt for.

Oh well in that sense I agree with you, but how were we interacting with the architecture in past games? Do you mean in terms of tombs and stuff like that?

I think ACU could have done with some of those. The Nostradamus Enigma's could have been structured in such a way, the riddles leading us to certain building as in the final game but instead of just scanning with Eagle Vision and pressing O there is a platforming level in which we have to find the disc. These levels could have lead us underground and actually make use of the catacombs.

Xstantin
02-25-2015, 06:12 PM
Well it doesn't do anything interesting beyond simply rendering it in Next-Gen HD. Aside from the Sivert-Notre Dame level where you are invited to climb the large exterior and move through the huge interiors of the cathedral to reach a target for one scripted assassination, and again that's only one mission that does that. Otherwise, there's no sense that you are actually interacting with the whole architecture which you got in earlier games and especially in Revelations.



I never climbed it for that mission going through the underground. Just like September Massacres mission and Jacobin Club one.

VestigialLlama4
02-25-2015, 06:39 PM
I never climbed it for that mission going through the underground. Just like September Massacres mission and Jacobin Club one.

Well I said you are "invited" to. I mean you begin the mission with you and Bellec surveying the entire area looking at it from a high angle, so you are definitely thinking of getting in from the top somehow.


Oh well in that sense I agree with you, but how were we interacting with the architecture in past games? Do you mean in terms of tombs and stuff like that?

Not particularly tombs, though I wish we had more of that. The Time Anomalies missions are essentially Tomb Levels with a new name, so I don't mean in that sense. I personally would have loved a Hagia Sophia that isn't a Tomb Level(like in Revelations) but like Notre Dame fully inhabitable exteriors and interiors 1:1, considering how huge that place is, it might have taken six years to render that.


I think ACU could have done with some of those. The Nostradamus Enigma's could have been structured in such a way, the riddles leading us to certain building as in the final game but instead of just scanning with Eagle Vision and pressing O there is a platforming level in which we have to find the disc. These levels could have lead us underground and actually make use of the catacombs.

Yeah, or you know make the prophecy disks feel like objects instead of some digital words. In REVELATIONS you collected all those Marco Polo books and they ended up being there in the library and you saw Ezio actually pull out books from underneath. And each of those books has a unique entry by Clay Kaczmarek (which you can't get from anywhere). The evolution could have been say, putting Public Domain translations of whole books there I suppose. In Unity, the prophecy disks allows you to dress up as Blue Altair with a Chainmail Hood. Apparently all of Nostradamus' Riddles aren't prophecies of future events but codes to find an impractical stupid looking period-costume (that unlike the earlier armour doesn't have special abilities). Stuff like this is on the writing level and not strictly gameplay, but that's my point, the writing determines how we feel about the gameplay, you can't have one without the other. It feels lifeless to me, it feels that they wanted to put a video-game quest together and they awkwardly fitted Nostradamus because the marketing people told them that he's a well-known Frenchman. Darby McDevitt on twitter mentioned that Jacques de Molay's book was going to form a Codex but they cut it out at the last moment, and you know the fact that they removed a side-quest revolving around a major figure in the game's lore (present in the opening sequence) and put in random crap on Nostradamus shows their level of thinking.

Assassin_M
02-25-2015, 07:38 PM
I am not sure that's realistic at all. People in real-life often have set routines where they go to work, go to market and so on at set times or the other. They also come home on the same tried-and-tested routes most of the time. And in any case when I meant lifeless I was talking about Arno's interaction with the city, since he's not really part of the events and setting, the NPC behaviour doesn't make sense being randomized as it does with say, Connor, who actually does care about other people.
It's realistic in the sense that not every NPC is a set character. They're all randomized characters. A logical equation would be for those randomized characters to have randomized routes and behaviors to invoke the fantasy of a bustling metropolis. A logical equation for what you describe would be for people in the Homestead or RDR towns. Those are set characters with their own set lives, jobs and personalities. It's all a fantasy and the design choice is based on that fantasy.




Well in the realm of aesthetics, there are no "facts": nothing is true, everything is permitted.
No, that's dumb. It's not aesthetics when I say that Unity's civilian NPC behavior is more advanced than anything in ACR. The citizens of ACR are what are called finite state machines. ACU uses a dumbed down version of RDR's behavioral trees. The homestead in AC III uses the exact same system as RDR but Unity can't do that because of the amount of characters in the city, so it offers the compromise seen in the game. COMPLETE finite state machines ceased being used since ACR. AC III started using that system completely in the homestead and to a lesser extent in the cities, same for AC IV and AC III. (behavioral trees are more advanced than finite state machines, since they offer more algorithms)


UNITY has advanced technology and AI but it doesn't do anything unique or interesting with it, and the story has such a thoroughgoing tunnel-vision on the romance and the conspiracy element, that all this randomized NPC element aside from giving some spontaneously generated activities to complete (which in the end amounts to the same as scripted side-missions anyway -- I don't care if it feels more "open" if it ends up performing the same function of distraction-relief).
Again, this has nothing to do with the discussion about Paris being dead and lifeless, this is irrelevant. You're mixing story, mechanics and YOUR OWN preferences.

VestigialLlama4
02-25-2015, 07:52 PM
No, that's dumb. It's not aesthetics when I say that Unity's civilian NPC behavior is more advanced than anything in ACR.

The word you are looking for is "complex" or "complicated", if you want to be generous you can call it "ambitious". "Advanced" is saying the graphics of UNITY are more advanced than Revelations, which is true.


Again, this has nothing to do with the discussion about Paris being dead and lifeless, this is irrelevant. You're mixing story, mechanics and YOUR OWN preferences.

You talk as if any of that can be separated. The gameplay mechanics and how we experience it is determined by the story. My point is a game can have organic randomized NPC behaviour, it can have the best graphics, it can have any real-time event generating software but it can still be more lifeless than say Zelda's Majora's Mask where all the movements and actions of the NPCs are perfectly timed and scripted.

SixKeys
02-25-2015, 08:07 PM
You talk as if any of that can be separated. The gameplay mechanics and how we experience it is determined by the story.

Not true. I know people who completely ignore AC4's story in favor of just endlessly doing pirate activities. I can play Unity's co-op missions and heists and side quests for hours without ever bothering with the story. And I don't miss it. If I hadn't replayed each game so many times, I doubt I would remember any of their plots. I just don't care that much about story. I care whether the world is inviting enough for me to want to spend time simply roaming in it. I can do that for hours in AC1's Kingdom area which has nothing in it except flags, Templars, towers to climb and random guards to either kill or ignore. I can do the same in Unity which has tons and tons of side content.

Majora's Mask is overrated, BTW.

Assassin_M
02-25-2015, 08:35 PM
The word you are looking for is "complex" or "complicated", if you want to be generous you can call it "ambitious". "Advanced" is saying the graphics of UNITY are more advanced than Revelations, which is true.
And it's true in the case of civilian NPC behaviors. I LITERALLY explained why in my post. There are standards and those standards are what decide what's fact and what's preference. Fact is, ACU's NPC behaviors in day life simulation is more advanced than in ACR. The crowds are more advanced than those in ACR. Thus they're more alive. When an entity is more complex, it's more alive.



You talk as if any of that can be separated. The gameplay mechanics and how we experience it is determined by the story. My point is a game can have organic randomized NPC behaviour, it can have the best graphics, it can have any real-time event generating software but it can still be more lifeless than say Zelda's Majora's Mask where all the movements and actions of the NPCs are perfectly timed and scripted.

Oh boy, this is such a wrong argument, i almost feel bad for having to explain it. They're not separate in the sense that they have nothing to do with each other, but they compliment each other. Meaning, that you can either start with an idea for a game loop and build a story around it OR you can start with a general premise and work the game loop around that.
Game Design is essentially dependent on fun and immersion. Game play always takes precedence if story will compromise fun and immersion. That said, AC is not a linear shooter. It's an open world sandbox. To YOU, perhaps, a story is essential for fun gameplay. In general, it's not. Especially in open world sandboxes. A HUGE chunk of gamers skip stories and just get into the meat of the games. Open world games allow that because of distractions. They're sandboxes.

SixKeys
02-25-2015, 08:40 PM
And it's true in the case of civilian NPC behaviors. I LITERALLY explained why in my post. There standards and those standards are what decide what's fact and what's preference. Fact is, ACU's NPC behaviors in day life simulation is more advanced than ACR. The crowds are more advanced than those in ACR. Thus they're more alive. When an entity is more complex, it's more alive.




Oh boy, this is such a wrong argument, i almost feel bad for having to explain it. They're not separate in the sense that they have nothing to do with each other, but they compliment each other. Meaning, that you can either start with an idea for a game loop and build a story around it OR you can start with a general premise and work the game loop around that.
Game Design is essentially dependent on fun and immersion. Game play always takes precedence if story will compromise fun and immersion. That said, AC is not a linear shooter. It's an open world sandbox. To YOU, perhaps, a story is essential for fun gameplay. In general, it's not. Especially in open world sandboxes. A HUGE chunk of gamers skip stories and just get into the meat of the games. Open world games allow that because of distractions. They're sandboxes.

+1

Assassin_M
02-25-2015, 11:42 PM
+1

And thus came the day when you and I agreed on something. Hell has frozen over.

Here's to our next heated argument

Farlander1991
02-26-2015, 12:42 AM
I believe best game design comes from the gameplay and narrative playing off each other and working together, rather than one taking 'the lead'. Of course, it all depends on the type of game, etc, and it's a whole different type of discussion, where it's important to know the needs and wants of different games and what they are trying to do. I also believe that 'games are about fun' is also a flawed way to look at things. In my opinion it's better to look at it as 'games are about being engaging'. There's a big difference, cause, let's take something like TellTale's The Walking Dead. At the end of each episode, you feel horrible about yourself as a human being, it's not fun, but it's engaging.

Assassin_M
02-26-2015, 12:45 AM
II also believe that 'games are about fun' is also a flawed way to look at things. In my opinion it's better to look at it as 'games are about being engaging'. There's a big difference, cause, let's take something like TellTale's The Walking Dead. At the end of each episode, you feel horrible about yourself as a human being, it's not fun, but it's engaging.
That is true. I suppose I didn't intend to use "fun" in the conventional sense of "weeeeeeee, this is fun", since I used immersion in there as well. But you're right, I agree.

Farlander1991
02-26-2015, 12:47 AM
That is true. I suppose I didn't intend to use "fun" in the conventional sense of "weeeeeeee, this is fun", since I used immersion in there as well. But you're right, I agree.

Heh. I've seen, read and participated in enough design discussions about 'fun' to learn to hate the word :p

Assassin_M
02-26-2015, 12:56 AM
Heh. I've seen, read and participated in enough design discussions about 'fun' to learn to hate the word :p
I know what you mean. I think when fun comes up between designers, they just generally mean living in the world, how it invites you in but others hijacked it to mean the fantasy of having a lighthearted good time, regardless of whether or not it's engaging or if it illicits various emotional triggers. Sure, fun CAN BE a lighthearted good time, by definition but i digress.

SixKeys
02-26-2015, 01:04 AM
And thus came the day when you and I agreed on something. Hell has frozen over.

Here's to our next heated argument

We also agree that Brotherhood is at least halfway decent and that Unity was a pretty good game underneath all the locked off content and technical issues.

Farlander1991
02-26-2015, 01:05 AM
I know what you mean. I think when fun comes up between designers, they just generally mean living in the world, how it invites you in but others hijacked it to mean the fantasy of having a lighthearted good time, regardless of whether or not it's engaging or if it illicits various emotional triggers. Sure, fun CAN BE a lighthearted good time, by definition but i digress.

Sadly, there's no definition or 'general meaning' regarding 'what is fun' or 'what is meant by fun' even among designers. But, anyway, yeah, we're going off-topic with this, lol.

Assassin_M
02-26-2015, 01:10 AM
Sadly, there's no definition or 'general meaning' regarding 'what is fun' or 'what is meant by fun' even among designers. But, anyway, yeah, we're going off-topic with this, lol.
Yeah, apologies for getting into unnecessary semantics.


We also agree that Brotherhood is at least halfway decent and that Unity was a pretty good game underneath all the locked off content and technical issues.
Oh no no, I think brotherhood is a great game, it ranks the same as ACR for me now, but anyways..Yeah, sure. We just don't interact much about what we agree about, you know? Usually just crossing words nya nya nya nya, so this was refreshing.

Farlander1991
02-26-2015, 01:14 AM
Yeah, apologies for getting into unnecessary semantics.

Wasn't that me who got into semantics? :p :D
... but then I guess it depends on what you mean by semantics and at what point the topic really switched to semantics :D
Anyway, this is a post that doesn't require to be answered :p

Assassin_M
02-26-2015, 01:22 AM
I'm not answering Farlander's post

Fatal-Feit
02-26-2015, 01:36 AM
Oh no no, I think brotherhood is a great game, it ranks the same as ACR for me now, but anyways..Yeah, sure. We just don't interact much about what we agree about, you know? Usually just crossing words nya nya nya nya, so this was refreshing.

OFF-TOPIC: Same here. IMO, it's better than its predecessor in every way. And that's not to mention the MP, which was one of my favorites.

Shahkulu101
02-26-2015, 01:37 AM
BH > eery game in da franchize

Fatal-Feit
02-26-2015, 01:47 AM
I wouldn't go that far.

Assassin_M
02-26-2015, 01:47 AM
OFF-TOPIC: Same here. IMO, it's better than its predecessor in every way. And that's not to mention the MP, which was one of my favorites.
Agreed. The only multiplayer I played, enjoyed and invested in completely was Brotherhood's. I don't know why, but the appeal disappeared so quickly. I don't know if it's because the uniqueness of characters and weapons were gone or what. All in all, Brotherhood is indeed better than AC II in every way.

Fatal-Feit
02-26-2015, 01:57 AM
Agreed. The only multiplayer I played, enjoyed and invested in completely was Brotherhood's. I don't know why, but the appeal disappeared so quickly. I don't know if it's because the uniqueness of characters and weapons were gone or what. All in all, Brotherhood is indeed better than AC II in every way.

For me, it was the lack of innovation. Every new MP was essentially a similar experience with a new skin and a few tweaks. Brotherhood through Black Flag was literally reusing the same tweaked AC2 engine. (fun fact: you can clearly see and feel the engine's coding reused in SoM =p)

But yeah, and it doesn't help that you had to rank up again every new installment. This is essentially why I believe the devs should end the servers in the previous titles and turn adversarial MP into an MMO or something with all the maps/skins in one package.

JustPlainQuirky
02-26-2015, 01:59 AM
Majora's Mask is overrated, BTW.

http://i.imgur.com/40L3pPI.gif

Majora's Mask has always been a polarized game and the red headed stepchild to OOT. It's only now getting the recognition it deserves.

Beforehand it merely had a cult following.

#Off-Topic

Shahkulu101
02-26-2015, 02:00 AM
I wouldn't go that far.

Best side missions by a long shot.

That's the main thing for moi in a vidya

Fatal-Feit
02-26-2015, 02:03 AM
Best side missions by a long shot.

That's the main thing for moi in a vidya

BF/U side missions > BH unless you count MP, but it's dead nowadays

Shahkulu101
02-26-2015, 02:11 AM
BF/U side missions > BH unless you count MP, but it's dead nowadays

Black Flag, maybe. However there was a lot of stuff that wasn't quite up to snuff, like Diving.

Unity? Nah, the Paris Stories were repetitive and uninspired. Murder Mysteries while cool were too basic and impersonal, like the Paris stories they are repeated too much for their own good. So much of Unity feels like padding whilst BH is tightly focused and the amount of activities isn't excessive.

SixKeys
02-26-2015, 02:22 AM
http://i.imgur.com/40L3pPI.gif

Majora's Mask has always been a polarized game and the red headed stepchild to OOT. It's only now getting the recognition it deserves.

Beforehand it merely had a cult following.

#Off-Topic

I was basically just messing with him for trying to compare MM to Unity. They're two totally different games, there's really no comparison. MM is heavily story- and character-focused, Unity is a massive sandbox where the side content is more fun than the main story.

I've never been a fan of MM, but I don't actually think it's overrated. It's been rather obscure up until the remake. I have been surprised to see how many reviewers are currently praising it considering how long it stood in Ocarina's shadow.

Anyway, back on topic... oh hell, who am I kidding? We haven't been on-topic since the third page or so.

Fatal-Feit
02-26-2015, 02:57 AM
Black Flag, maybe. However there was a lot of stuff that wasn't quite up to snuff, like Diving.

Diving was fantastic. It blended in a unique way of navigating and exploring alongside stealth. And I especially love the contract missions where it was split between underwater and land stealth/navigation. i.e swimming into a shipwreck and avoiding the shark, then making your way towards the center of the ship where you can find and take down the target

May you elaborate on your problems with it?


Unity? Nah, the Paris Stories were repetitive and uninspired. Murder Mysteries while cool were too basic and impersonal, like the Paris stories they are repeated too much for their own good. So much of Unity feels like padding whilst BH is tightly focused and the amount of activities isn't excessive.

Only played a handful of the Paris Stories, but the ones I played were anything but repetitive and uninspired. One of them had you steal a letter from a monk and invade their hideout and then navigate/stealth your way through the catacombs to assassinate the targets. Another had you protect a a tombstone on its way to a landmark for proper burial. You essentially were taking down snipers and guards on rooftops, in interiors, and ground. At the and, the rest of the wave shows up during a speech and you had to help fend them off. And another was about investigating supposedly cursed fountains and eliminating serial killers. They made great use of Paris' locations (catacomb/etc) and were essentially BF's Assassin/BH's Templar Agent missions w/o the cutscenes, but with less linearity, restrictions, and better level designs.

The only issue I had with MMs were the excessive notification pop-ups. The weapon rewards you got from completing them were neat.

The side missions that make Unity shines the most is its CO-OP missions, for me. Not only can you play it with friends, they're diverse, plentiful, and have ample amount of replayability. In the past games, once you've replayed the side missions 1-2 time, you grow bored because they were either linear, restrictive, couldn't be replayed, or not a good sandbox. i.e Lair of Romulus / Christina / War Machines

I think our differences boils down to what we prefer in our gameplay. I don't like excessive cutscenes or Micheal Bay-like sequences that strips you of the core gameplay elements. I like open-ended side missions that doesn't force you to do one thing and desync you for trying another.

SixKeys
02-26-2015, 03:12 AM
The diving sections in AC4 were a great idea, but the controls were ******* terrible. At least with a keyboard+mouse.

Fatal-Feit
02-26-2015, 03:19 AM
U always blame the M&K controls. Put on a trench coat and a mask and buy yourself a 360 controller already.

Shahkulu101
02-26-2015, 04:04 AM
Dude, I love open ended gameplay and that's the main reason I like Unity more than most. I'm insulted you would think I'm a 'Michael Bay' sort of guy considering I've been decrying complaints about Unity's combat since release. My problem with the side missions is the fact there's no context except for some dry conversation with a stock historical figure or worse a simple text message. Arno doesn't talk in the vast majority of them and while I enjoyed them at first due to fun gameplay they lack diversity in their design and there's a ridiculous amount of them so you get really fatigued.

I'll concede that BH had more linear missions and that the core gameplay wasn't as strong as Unity, but you had a reason to actually care about what you were doing and unlike Unity there was only a handful of each and you never got burnt out doing one thing. Had the Paris Stories been chopped down and been more focused there would be less missions overall but more quality. As they are, most consist of listening or reading something totally mind numbing, stealing/killing thing(s) in green circle - done. It's good that they give you simple objectives that you can tackle any way you want, but they are much smaller scale and less well designed than the main campaign. That's natural for any side mission, but Unity asks you to complete 50 of them - as if they are such high quality missions that they deserve it.

I guess my problem isn't with the design of the missions, just the overwhelming excessiveness. I like games that are wound more tightly and can be easily digested while still having strong, entertaining gameplay. ACB personifies that - it's also why Blood Dragon is my favourite Far Cry and why I prefer First Light to Second Son - the unnecessary fluff, or fat if you like, is chopped off and you're left with the good bits only.

Fatal-Feit
02-26-2015, 04:30 AM
Alright, in this case, for you, more isn't better. If they were to half the amount of missions so its less disproportionate and were given more story context, you wouldn't have as much problem with it. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I apologize then. That's where our differences lies. For me, most side missions don't need to be driven by narrative, but to focus on its gameplay aspects. And that's where Unity exceeds compared to Brotherhood, IMO. It's also why I love BH's contracts more than the rest combined.

Shahkulu101
02-26-2015, 04:52 AM
Alright, in this case, for you, more isn't better. If they were to half the amount of missions so its less disproportionate and were given more story context, you wouldn't have as much problem with it. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I apologize then. That's where our differences lies. For me, most side missions don't need to be driven by narrative, but to focus on its gameplay aspects. And that's where Unity exceeds compared to Brotherhood, IMO. It's also why I love BH's contracts more than the rest combined.

Yeah that's pretty much it, and usually I'm ok with minimal context but I thought Unity was especially bad in that regard. I am mainly a gameplay guy too, and if I found the Paris story missions amazing I probably wouldn't have cared about the narrative shortcomings but they are simply satisfactory and no more in my opinion. FC3/4 have side quests with little context but I don't care because the mechanics and weapons are so fun to play around with. So the great gameplay outweighs the poor mission context, wheras Unity is mediocre on both sides with regards to side content.

VestigialLlama4
02-26-2015, 02:27 PM
Fact is, ACU's NPC behaviors in day life simulation is more advanced than in ACR. The crowds are more advanced than those in ACR. Thus they're more alive. When an entity is more complex, it's more alive.

We are talking about digital AI here, ultimately they are less alive than wooden puppets which on account of the human hands that move it are more unpredictable than the pre-coded and patterned behaviour of game AI. Now is the technology that makes a wooden puppet more advanced than digital AI, no. It's basic tools and craftmanship while the latter requires complex machines, software and CPUs. It's more complex in production certainly.

The fact is there's no difference between randomized NPCs and patterned NPCs in a sandbox game in terms of the ultimate function they serve to the player, which is light distraction/relief from main narrative and other side-quests. No more and no less. The only way UNITY could be considered an advancement was if the AI played a complex function in the story but they don't.


Game play always takes precedence if story will compromise fun and immersion. That said, AC is not a linear shooter. It's an open world sandbox. To YOU, perhaps, a story is essential for fun gameplay. In general, it's not. Especially in open world sandboxes. A HUGE chunk of gamers skip stories and just get into the meat of the games. Open world games allow that because of distractions. They're sandboxes.

But are all sandboxes alike? I mean the ultimate sandbox is Grand Theft Auto and they offer a lot more scope for "do anything, anytime" than AC does (which restricts you from killing civilian NPCs and generally limits you to travel by foot). The AC games are powerfully story driven, you only get access to the full map and different areas by completing the full game (unlike GTA which opens everything by the mid-way part) and progression is tied very much to story, unlike GTA where if you know a map on the internet you can get access to advanced weapons or rare vehicles earlier than the story allows.


I know people who completely ignore AC4's story in favor of just endlessly doing pirate activities. I can play Unity's co-op missions and heists and side quests for hours without ever bothering with the story. And I don't miss it. If I hadn't replayed each game so many times, I doubt I would remember any of their plots. I just don't care that much about story. I care whether the world is inviting enough for me to want to spend time simply roaming in it. I can do that for hours in AC1's Kingdom area which has nothing in it except flags, Templars, towers to climb and random guards to either kill or ignore. I can do the same in Unity which has tons and tons of side content.

Okay, would AC1 be a game of any importance or value if it only had the Kingdom as a Map, with no plot and background, just you Altair going around mindlessly killing people across a barren wartorn landscape with no real purpose or logic? The game's emotional moments comes from the death-bed conversations with your targets and his interactions with Malick and other Assassins. As Al Mualim says, "Your work hasn't changed, but merely the context in which you percieve it." In Black Flag, the pirate activities are tied to the story, you can't progress until you attack the forts, you can't attack the forts until you upgrade the ship and that progression comes from the story itself. When I say story, I mean not the plot but the overall theme, characterization and gameplay. Every open world game would be the same if it weren't for the strong context and characterization that distinguishes it from each other.

Assassin_M
02-26-2015, 03:10 PM
The only way UNITY could be considered an advancement was if the AI played a complex function in the story but they don't.
To you, maybe. Doesn't change the facts I explained. I'm done arguing.

Megas_Doux
02-26-2015, 04:51 PM
Yeah that's pretty much it, and usually I'm ok with minimal context but I thought Unity was especially bad in that regard. I am mainly a gameplay guy too, and if I found the Paris story missions amazing I probably wouldn't have cared about the narrative shortcomings but they are simply satisfactory and no more in my opinion. FC3/4 have side quests with little context but I don't care because the mechanics and weapons are so fun to play around with. So the great gameplay outweighs the poor mission context, wheras Unity is mediocre on both sides with regards to side content.

I said way back when that one of my main concerns with Unity will be the approach of the open world and side quests en general. The main reason being the super good job they did in AC IV thanks the primarily to the setting and all the "pirate" stuff to exploit that added variety. Stuff that would not be available to repeat in Unity, thus Unity had to relied on purely assassinish stuff....

The problem was that stuff ended up being not properly done either.

VestigialLlama4
02-26-2015, 07:17 PM
To you, maybe. Doesn't change the facts I explained.

Facts don't speak for themselves.

SixKeys
02-26-2015, 07:21 PM
U always blame the M&K controls. Put on a trench coat and a mask and buy yourself a 360 controller already.

I wasn't blaming them. I'm happy with M+KB. I just cannot for the life of me fathom why anyone would think the diving controls were anything but atrocious unless there is some significant different between keyboard vs. controller.

SixKeys
02-26-2015, 07:25 PM
Okay, would AC1 be a game of any importance or value if it only had the Kingdom as a Map, with no plot and background, just you Altair going around mindlessly killing people across a barren wartorn landscape with no real purpose or logic? The game's emotional moments comes from the death-bed conversations with your targets and his interactions with Malick and other Assassins. As Al Mualim says, "Your work hasn't changed, but merely the context in which you percieve it." In Black Flag, the pirate activities are tied to the story, you can't progress until you attack the forts, you can't attack the forts until you upgrade the ship and that progression comes from the story itself. When I say story, I mean not the plot but the overall theme, characterization and gameplay. Every open world game would be the same if it weren't for the strong context and characterization that distinguishes it from each other.

Maybe? I mean, my favorite, most memorable moments in AC1 come from exploring the Kingdom so obviously I see something in it that you don't. I will never forget the tension I felt with that creepy music, sand blowing across the plains, angry soldiers patrolling everywhere and me, the lone eagle, surveying the landscape from high above. OTOH, I can't even remember some of the targets' names or motivations without googling.

Fatal-Feit
02-26-2015, 07:27 PM
I wasn't blaming them. I'm happy with M+KB. I just cannot for the life of me fathom why anyone would think the diving controls were anything but atrocious unless there is some significant different between keyboard vs. controller.

When I get Black Flag working again, I'll dive ( ͡░ ͜ʖ ͡░) back in and see if there's a difference. I remember having some navigation problems, but it was nowhere near atrocious.

Never tried M&K during the underwater missions.

Shahkulu101
02-26-2015, 07:29 PM
I made Diving interesting by actually holding my breath until I reached an air barrel or air pocket. I was going to make a thread but I forgot. It's actually entirely possible I was surprised to find out. Unless you get lost, then **** gets tense.

VestigialLlama4
02-26-2015, 07:34 PM
OTOH, I can't even remember some of the targets' names or motivations without googling.

So why do you keep mentioning how open the AC1 targets vis-a-vis UNITY if you can't remember or be bothered with it? The whole investigation and planning comes from knowing and getting information.

My main issue with The Kingdom is that there aren't any AC targets there. Compare that to the FRONTIER in AC3, which is essentially the Kingdom improved and an actual natural landscape and setting with war activity that feels genuine and real rather than a connecting hub. I mean, as a pure open-world, the Frontier makes far more sense and yields more pleasure to wander around since you have a huge natural environment that you can interact and work with in myriad different ways, without just being an Assassin or killing anyone. The Parkour in that area is incredible all on its own.

I wouldn't have minded if Jubair (in the forgettable final district of Damascus) was transported to the Kingdom for an Assassination Mission.

VestigialLlama4
02-26-2015, 07:37 PM
I made Diving interesting by actually holding my breath until I reached a air barrel or air pocket. I was going to make a thread but I forgot. It's actually entirely possible I was surprised to find out. Unless you get lost, then **** gets tense.

The Diving missions in Black Flag are obviously Tomb levels retooled and gameplay wise is the underwater level in Mario 64. I liked the missions overall. The Blue Trench I think where you have to swim around a single wreck from multiple different angles, over side-around, and the geometry's all twisted so its hard to get directions there.

Assassin_M
02-26-2015, 07:41 PM
Facts don't speak for themselves.
Yeah, they do. Your denial is of no consequence. ACU NPC simulation wont suddenly stop being more advanced than ACR's simply because you say otherwise. Paris wont be dead and lifeless because you, confusedly, said so. I explained why, you retorted with your subjective views. No attack from me for holding them, my point was that you're WRONG if you think your views are fact. Simple as that.

Shahkulu101
02-26-2015, 07:42 PM
The Diving missions in Black Flag are obviously Tomb levels retooled and gameplay wise is the underwater level in Mario 64. I liked the missions overall. The Blue Trench I think where you have to swim around a single wreck from multiple different angles, over side-around, and the geometry's all twisted so its hard to get directions there.

I mean they're okay, I just found the controls a bit awkward and felt they could have done more with them than "Collect Chest". The ones that took you though the caves and into Smugglers Dens were the most fun IMO as they mixed two gameplay components seamlessly together.

SixKeys
02-26-2015, 07:45 PM
So why do you keep mentioning how open the AC1 targets vis-a-vis UNITY if you can't remember or be bothered with it? The whole investigation and planning comes from knowing and getting information.

My main issue with The Kingdom is that there aren't any AC targets there. Compare that to the FRONTIER in AC3, which is essentially the Kingdom improved and an actual natural landscape and setting with war activity that feels genuine and real rather than a connecting hub. I mean, as a pure open-world, the Frontier makes far more sense and yields more pleasure to wander around since you have a huge natural environment that you can interact and work with in myriad different ways, without just being an Assassin or killing anyone. The Parkour in that area is incredible all on its own.

I wouldn't have minded if Jubair (in the forgettable final district of Damascus) was transported to the Kingdom for an Assassination Mission.

I said I can't remember targets' names or motivations. I remember the assassinations themselves. I don't remember Unity's targets' names or motivations either, but I remember the missions. Because I care about gameplay more than I do about story, as I've already mentioned a dozen times. The white room speeches are great, but I would still enjoy the assassination missions without them.

Damascus? Forgettable? Not possible.

The Frontier is absolutely awful apart from a few areas. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

VestigialLlama4
02-26-2015, 08:34 PM
Damascus? Forgettable? Not possible.

I said the final district of Damascus, the one where Jubair is located, I like the first two districts a great deal more.


We'll just have to agree to disagree.

What is the purpose of this forum if everyone agreed to disagree?


ACU NPC simulation wont suddenly stop being more advanced than ACR's simply because you say otherwise. Paris wont be dead and lifeless because you, confusedly, said so.

Well stating that the NPCs are technically more complex doesn't automatically make Paris more alive or realistic than ACR's Istanbul.


No attack from me for holding them, my point was that you're WRONG if you think your views are fact. Simple as that.

My point is you're WRONG if you think your views aren't subjective. Everything on this forum is subjective and that point is so obvious that I assume everyone here takes it for granted and that it's not worth pointing out. Saying that the NPCs are more complex and are more randomized doesn't mean anything, nor does saying that Unity's graphics are more advanced (since that's down to technology and leaves aside how its used and deployed). What matters is that the game doesn't do anything creative or interesting with its innovations. Yes Paris is lovely and it has Next-Gen, okay fine, they spent two years recreating Notre-Dame (which they used for a single mission). The point is that the overall map and sandbox doesn't feel like stepping into the historical Paris, there's no sense of interacting with the society at large, you don't feel you are in an important period since nobody actually discusses the French Revolution, and more importantly the side missions are pitifully written and turgid missions that feel even more lifeless than the Letter delivery missions in AC2. The reasons for this failure include the character of Arno since its his perspective through which we see events, there's also the moronically stupid accent issues. There aren't any of the little touches that add to the game's recreation of the setting that the earlier titles had.

Assassin_M
02-26-2015, 08:58 PM
Well stating that the NPCs are technically more complex doesn't automatically make Paris more alive or realistic than ACR's Istanbul.
Didn't say realistic. They're not "technically" more complex, they ARE FACTUALLY. Jeez, you're HUGELY oversimplifying what I said. I said that ACU's CROWD SIMULATION is more advanced and complex than anything in ACR. That's a truth, it's a fact. Now, what constitutes a "living" open world or sandbox? Buildings? Landmarks? Traversal? Story? No no no, Llama, no. There're TONS of open world games with no story, little to no buildings/landmarks and simple navigation, yet are described as "alive" or "breathing". It's the simulation of life in the setting.

Let's take the Saboteur, as an example. It's a game that has accurate french accents, period vehicles, various landmarks and historical events. ALL of those are used to their utmost potential. There're a lot of missions that take place in and around various landmarks, the protagonist is a mechanic, so cars are given a lot of spotlight and the game puts you in THE MIDDLE OF THE CONFLICT. BUT BUT BUT, what happens when you walk in Paris? When you decide you want to take a stroll? Empty streets. Bland civilians who have 2 or 3 behaviors, market vendors standing lifelessly behind stalls, no crowd sounds, terrible sound effects (Birds at night and no cockroaches). it's a dead city.

People describe the city as an accurate and beautiful recreation but it's not alive. the World is dead. There's nothing populating it but scripted robots.


My point is you're WRONG if you think your views aren't subjective.
ACU's NPC AI being more complex is not subjective.


Saying that the NPCs are more complex and are more randomized doesn't mean anything
Yes it does, oh my god, it's relevant to the discussion. it's about life in an open world game, it's the ENTIRETY OF THE DISCUSSION. You're the one insisting on twisting your ignorant views into skewed facts. "Oh, life means landmarks, story and how the city is used" NO NO NO, that's not what "LIFE" means. This is mechanics, level design and story. It's a totally different discussion.


nor does saying that Unity's graphics are more advanced (since that's down to technology and leaves aside how its used and deployed).
In a conversation about graphics, yes it does.


Yes Paris is lovely and it has Next-Gen, okay fine, they spent two years recreating Notre-Dame (which they used for a single mission).
Story and level design


The point is that the overall map and sandbox doesn't feel like stepping into the historical Paris
Disagreed.


there's no sense of interacting with the society at large
Story, design


you don't feel you are in an important period since nobody actually discusses the French Revolution
Story


and more importantly the side missions are pitifully written and turgid missions
Writing


The reasons for this failure include the character of Arno since its his perspective through which we see events
Story and characterization


there's also the moronically stupid accent issues
******** oh oh I mean, disagreed.


There aren't any of the little touches that add to the game's recreation of the setting that the earlier titles had.
There we go. It's about prefrence. You didn't like the recreation of revolutionary Paris in unity, that's totally separate from how alive or dead it is. Boston and NY are unpopular settings. Their landmarks are similar, they're not as grand as those from Italy, Turkey or Syria and their buildings are shorter. Their NPCs, though, are more advanced and thus more alive than anything before AC III. THAT is a fact. Does it negate people's dislike for Boston and NY? Of course not. What I'm saying negates nor attacks NOTHING about what you think of Paris. It's dull, it's not accurate, it's not used well...etc. It's NOT dead, though.

JustPlainQuirky
02-26-2015, 09:01 PM
there is so much tension in this thread rn

Fatal-Feit
02-26-2015, 09:03 PM
When SixKeys and M agreed on something, you know it's srs business.

Assassin_M
02-26-2015, 09:15 PM
When SixKeys and M agreed on something, you know it's srs business.

there is so much tension in this thread rn
it's really not tense from my side. I keep inserting funny tidpits in there when I say "Llama no"

That said, I really like Llama and I said numerous times that I agree with a lot of his views but others, not so much.

I apologize, anyway. I'll drop it.

JustPlainQuirky
02-26-2015, 09:20 PM
oh I thought Llama no was a sign of frustration

Assassin_M
02-26-2015, 09:24 PM
oh I thought Llama no was a sign of frustration
The difference the lack of a smiley could make

JustPlainQuirky
02-26-2015, 09:27 PM
y u no use smilies

hnghh

you would be less intimidating

Assassin_M
02-26-2015, 09:28 PM
you would be less intimidating
That's no fun

SixKeys
02-26-2015, 09:49 PM
What is the purpose of this forum if everyone agreed to disagree?


On this issue, there's just no way to come to a consensus. I do not think story trumps gameplay. You think the two are inseparable. I don't. There's nothing either of us can say to convince the other differently. I think AC1's Kingdom beats the Frontier any day. There's nothing you can say to convince me otherwise. So there's obviously no option left but to agree to disagree.