PDA

View Full Version : I don't understand Shay's transformation...(SPOILERS)



Defalt221
02-19-2015, 01:00 PM
Sure Achilles got that incident triggered indirectly through Shay by ordering him to retrieve the object. But the truth is,the Templars would have caused it if Shay didn't get there first. If Shay is so mad about the death of so many innocents,what would he have done if he watched Haytham murder hundreds of people at the Boston massacre? Let me guess...
"Templars and Assassins are BOTH SCUMS! They mess with innocent lives like it's nothing! I'll not let that happen again. And this would go on..."

The_Kiwi_
02-19-2015, 01:20 PM
Once Haytham discovered what they were, as informed by Shay, he then decided not to touch them

Shay respected him for that

Whereas Achilles didn't listen to Shay, he ignored his advice and tried to continue his quest, which is why Shay did whatever it took to stop him

Shay didn't hate Achilles because he killed innocent people, he hated him because he tried to do it again even though he was warned about what the objects were

Fatal-Feit
02-19-2015, 02:07 PM
Sure Achilles got that incident triggered indirectly through Shay by ordering him to retrieve the object. But the truth is,the Templars would have caused it if Shay didn't get there first.

IIRC, the Templars either knew of its importance or was wary of meddling with the First Civ artifacts, and weren't going to tamper with it. The exact opposite of the Assassins.


If Shay is so mad about the death of so many innocents,what would he have done if he watched Haytham murder hundreds of people at the Boston massacre? Let me guess...
"Templars and Assassins are BOTH SCUMS! They mess with innocent lives like it's nothing! I'll not let that happen again. And this would go on..."

That's the biggest problem I have with Rogue. It's more a circumstantial difference, than philosophical. Shay was the hero of justice and he would have sided with either faction, given they were saving the world.

Shay supported the Templar cause because, from his experience and side of things, the Templars were righteous. They were sympathetic and non vulgar.

VoldR
02-19-2015, 04:24 PM
First impressions and social skills can get you far in persuasion.

I'm sure the Templars try not to include him in artifacts missions.
:D

Altair1789
02-19-2015, 04:40 PM
Once Haytham discovered what they were, as informed by Shay, he then decided not to touch them

That kinda contradicts what Juno said in AC3, that if Connor does nothing, Haytham and the templars will open the vault and ruin the land

Hans684
02-19-2015, 04:42 PM
That kinda contradicts what Juno said in AC3, that if Connor does nothing, Haytham and the templars will open the vault and ruin the land

Your talking about the Grand Temple.

VestigialLlama4
02-19-2015, 04:58 PM
Once Haytham discovered what they were, as informed by Shay, he then decided not to touch them

Shay respected him for that

Actually that's not really true. Haytham was concerned because the Assassins were blindly messing with something but that doesn't mean he wasn't interested in the Precursor devices either.



Haytham: As Grand Master, I must investigate this Precursor matter to the end. And witness the death of Achilles' Brotherhood.
Shay: If the Assassins do trigger an earthquake, at least there's few around to suffer.
Haytham: I have no intention of letting your former colleagues destroy a Precursor site, regardless.


I have no doubt that if the Assassins hadn't found the artifacts first, Haytham and other Templars would have stumbled on it because neither of them knew that the Box and Manuscript would unleash that since the Voynich script is otherwise indecipherable.

As for Shay's support for the Templars, it works in the metaphorical sense of "checks-and-balances", that if the Assassins are really wrong than the Templars have to be there to stop them because no one else can.Personally, I think ROGUE fails as a story in that it doesn't show any of the nasty stuff the Templars do and glosses over Shay's betrayal by never having him do any real dark stuff. I mean the targets he killed earlier, Lawrence Washngton is a slaveowner (where supposedly Templars are anti-slavery in the 18the Century) and another one Wardop committed war crimes against native americans, but we are supposed to feel bad because Shay feels lousy about attacking weak, defenseless old men. It works more in the fanfiction sense of sympathetic Templars (the historical part of the Seven Years War is glossed over) than anything meaningful in story.

Perk89
02-19-2015, 05:17 PM
Once Haytham discovered what they were, as informed by Shay, he then decided not to touch them

Shay respected him for that

Whereas Achilles didn't listen to Shay, he ignored his advice and tried to continue his quest, which is why Shay did whatever it took to stop him

Shay didn't hate Achilles because he killed innocent people, he hated him because he tried to do it again even though he was warned about what the objects were


Lol. In the words of everyone favorite Assassin techie "Oh boy. Real history time." Because this is revisionist history if there ever were It.

Shay had made himself an enemy of the brotherhood and a Templar long before meeting Haytham. Haytham doesn't even make an appearance until, at least, the games halfway point. This follows Shay, who by the way, pretty explicitly hated Achilles for "making him kill people" which was pretty irrational in itself, and led to him throwing a way-more than reasonable tantrum followed by stealing from the Assassins. And then, killing Assassins-including people were just his close friend AND aiding the Templars in things that were largely irrelevant to Shay's personal cause.

the issue the OP is discussing-Shay's transformation being a bit forced and irrational-is one that has become a very prominent talking point when discussing the game. I get that this if the Official forum , folks, so I get all the "diehard" hipsters with their disdain for the mainstream are going to congregate here,which is why we have so many "GO TEMPLARs!" weirdoes running around, and that's alright, it's okay to have a little fun like that-but let's at least not try to distort the facts here, people. Im not even speaking to you directly, but to that contingent of folks as a whole. Trying to rationalize, or worse, justify, what is widely considered to be a considerable weakpoint in the game's narrative (and sadly, one that is essential to the bedrock of the character himself) just comes across homerish. Or, to use gamer jargon given we are a gamer forum-fanboyish.

Perk89
02-19-2015, 05:21 PM
Actually that's not really true. Haytham was concerned because the Assassins were blindly messing with something but that doesn't mean he wasn't interested in the Precursor devices either.



I have no doubt that if the Assassins hadn't found the artifacts first, Haytham and other Templars would have stumbled on it because neither of them knew that the Box and Manuscript would unleash that since the Voynich script is otherwise indecipherable.

As for Shay's support for the Templars, it works in the metaphorical sense of "checks-and-balances", that if the Assassins are really wrong than the Templars have to be there to stop them because no one else can.Personally, I think ROGUE fails as a story in that it doesn't show any of the nasty stuff the Templars do and glosses over Shay's betrayal by never having him do any real dark stuff. I mean the targets he killed earlier, Lawrence Washngton is a slaveowner (where supposedly Templars are anti-slavery in the 18the Century) and another one Wardop committed war crimes against native americans, but we are supposed to feel bad because Shay feels lousy about attacking weak, defenseless old men. It works more in the fanfiction sense of sympathetic Templars (the historical part of the Seven Years War is glossed over) than anything meaningful in story.



Yet another significant disparity in the Templar ideology pool, scoffing at the idea with the Templars's victory would be some peaceful ONE WORLD hogwash.


but I digress.

Defalt221
02-19-2015, 06:35 PM
Your talking about the Grand Temple.

But to open the Grand Temple,Haytham would require the Apple of Eden-which the moment he touches would
1)Either show him the future of his actions (destruction of the land) which could cause him to stop and give up Templar activities or,
2)Corrupt him like other antagonists in previous Assassin's creed and he'll try to control everyone through illusions.
3)No he wouldn't back down on Templar philosophy and...I don't know,what will he do after Juno shows him the 'TRUTH' and everything ...?

phoenix-force411
02-19-2015, 06:45 PM
The Templar Order acts differently depending on the Grand Master. It just comes to show that both sides are not always so black and white. The grey within the series is probably the most interesting part within the conflict. Ezio's trilogy was basically all pro-assassin and showed nothing worth questioning.

EmptyCrustacean
02-19-2015, 07:10 PM
I said the same thing in a thread I made a while ago: http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/996061-I-have-serious-issues-with-Shay%E2%80%99s-character-arc-%28spoilers-obviously%29

Altair1789
02-19-2015, 08:46 PM
Your talking about the Grand Temple.

Vault, temple, close enough :rolleyes:

Hans684
02-19-2015, 09:18 PM
But to open the Grand Temple,Haytham would require the Apple of Eden-which the moment he touches would
1)Either show him the future of his actions (destruction of the land) which could cause him to stop and give up Templar activities or,

Or just stopping the hunt for the Grand Temple, something he actually did without the Apple. He still belives more in the Templar Ideology than the Assassins Creed.


2)Corrupt him like other antagonists in previous Assassin's creed and he'll try to control everyone through illusions.

Boring but possible.


3)No he wouldn't back down on Templar philosophy and...I don't know,what will he do after Juno shows him the 'TRUTH' and everything ...?

What truth? A couple corrupt Templars? He'd view them no different than Benjamin. That he would find the Temple and possibly die there? That would give him more reasons to not look for it, something he failed at anyway. What everything? Both factions have been in war since their creation, of course there would be bad Templar just like there is bad Assassins, forget that part. The series glance over it like a blind child anyway. Is this Marvel, DC, Disney or am I missing something? Are we playing superheroes and knights in shining armors rescuing every person and princess they see,not capable of anything wrong? How's that human? How's perfection human? To say that one order is immune of doing bad because of things like there rules("Stay your blade from the flesh of an innocent") doesn't mean they don't kill innocents. I don't know how deep you see the AvsT war but I'm always thinking and always going more and more in to details. I've gone so deep I can even see some grayness in AC2(little but there is) but not capable with Brotherhood. Disney could have it and none would see a difference, it's not about "maturity"(never understood that argument or view). The war they have is also philosophical, where is the philosophy in Unity, Brotherhood and 2? All I see is a bunch of weird dudes with funny hats, plotting for world domination. The original hit the nail in the head with philosophy, it made you question and think about what you did. So we have this knight killing one civilian(innocent old man) out of paranoia. Seeing enemies where they don't exist, how is his kill any different than Alta´r's kill(innocent old man) in the cave? Or any other guards he kills? Aren't they people to? Why did Alta´r just stand and watch Sinrand when he easily could have killed him and saved a life? What if Sibrand wasn't paranoid, wasn't afraid? Would the same guy still die? Don't think so, his view on the war is that they are just as the same and the Assassins is on the other side of the same coin. Was the freedom worth it? Would control be better? Does any of it accomplish peace? Could lives have been saved?


Vault, temple, close enough :rolleyes:

It will never be never enough, you have played your part and you will do so again. :rolleyes:

The_Kiwi_
02-20-2015, 12:07 AM
That kinda contradicts what Juno said in AC3, that if Connor does nothing, Haytham and the templars will open the vault and ruin the land

Haytham didn't know what would happen if he entered the temple
He did know what would happen if he touched the things in Rogue
There's a difference


Actually that's not really true. Haytham was concerned because the Assassins were blindly messing with something but that doesn't mean he wasn't interested in the Precursor devices either.

I never said Haytham wasn't interested...
Haytham wanted to study/observe these sites, meaning he didn't want to interfere
Which renders your argument moot because I was still right all along...

Perk89
02-20-2015, 01:51 AM
Haytham didn't know what would happen if he entered the temple
He did know what would happen if he touched the things in Rogue
There's a difference



I never said Haytham wasn't interested...
Haytham wanted to study/observe these sites, meaning he didn't want to interfere
Which renders your argument moot because I was still right all along...



Lol Haytham pretty clearly has a stronger intent to do more than "observe" precursor sites. Bu the end of Forsaken he's developed a Reginald Birch-esque obsession with them.

Thats revisionist if there ever were it.

Namikaze_17
02-20-2015, 02:12 AM
Lol Haytham pretty clearly has a stronger intent to do more than "observe" precursor sites. Bu the end of Forsaken he's developed a Reginald Birch-esque obsession with them.

Thats revisionist if there ever were it.

Hardly. He gave up on the quest for the Temple to focus on more practical pursuits for the Order.

Along with Shay's warning that made him not chase the precursor temples any longer.

If anything, Haytham showed more of an intrigue with precursor sites/items, not an obsession.

Altair1789
02-20-2015, 02:42 AM
Haytham didn't know what would happen if he entered the temple
He did know what would happen if he touched the things in Rogue
There's a difference

Oh, nevermind that's true

The_Kiwi_
02-20-2015, 06:20 AM
Lol Haytham pretty clearly has a stronger intent to do more than "observe" precursor sites. Bu the end of Forsaken he's developed a Reginald Birch-esque obsession with them.

Thats revisionist if there ever were it.

We're talking about Shay in relation to his transformation and how Rogue's Haytham is involved

Forsaken isn't even relevant so I don't see why you need to bring it up...

Your point is invalid and so my point still stands

Perk89
02-20-2015, 06:30 AM
We're talking about Shay in relation to his transformation and how Rogue's Haytham is involved

Forsaken isn't even relevant so I don't see why you need to bring it up...

Your point is invalid and so my point still stands



Except Forsaken paints a pretty clear picture of Haytham's mindset during this period. You can't just dismiss it because you don't want to hear it.

DemonLord4lf
02-20-2015, 06:39 AM
They could've done the transistion from Assassin to Templar a bit better. I mean, even before he officially joins, he's sporting Templar symbols all over his home and boat.

The_Kiwi_
02-20-2015, 06:53 AM
Except Forsaken paints a pretty clear picture of Haytham's mindset during this period. You can't just dismiss it because you don't want to hear it.

I'm not dismissing it because I don't want to hear it
I'm dismissing it because it is irrelevant


They could've done the transistion from Assassin to Templar a bit better. I mean, even before he officially joins, he's sporting Templar symbols all over his home and boat.

To be fair, Shay commandeered The Morrigan from the Royal Navy, who may or may not have been Templar supporters

Namikaze_17
02-20-2015, 06:57 AM
Don't bother Kiwi, he's obviously too stubborn to admit when he's wrong.

As all Assassins. :rolleyes:

DemonLord4lf
02-20-2015, 07:02 AM
Don't bother Kiwi, he's obviously too stubborn to admit when he's wrong.

As all Assassins. :rolleyes:

https://theoverlookedonlookers.files.wordpress.com/2013/10/point_missed.gif

The_Kiwi_
02-20-2015, 07:02 AM
Don't bother Kiwi, he's obviously too stubborn to admit when he's wrong.

As all Assassins. :rolleyes:

http://img.4plebs.org/boards/s4s/image/1406/15/1406158769407.gif
http://i.imgur.com/OCGfQ.gif

Namikaze_17
02-20-2015, 07:07 AM
https://theoverlookedonlookers.files.wordpress.com/2013/10/point_missed.gif


What is the point of anything? :p


http://img.4plebs.org/boards/s4s/image/1406/15/1406158769407.gif
http://i.imgur.com/OCGfQ.gif

http://i.imgur.com/Ay29K.jpg

DemonLord4lf
02-20-2015, 07:14 AM
What is the point of anything? :p

Aren't you suppose to be a ninja? Aren't ninja's the closest thing to an Assassin? You sir are a paradox!!!

Namikaze_17
02-20-2015, 07:39 AM
Aren't you suppose to be a ninja? Aren't ninja's the closest thing to an Assassin? You sir are a paradox!!!

Indeed, but my ideology doesn't align with the Assassins and their Creed...at least not anymore.

I was an Assassin once, yes, but all that changed when the nine tails attacked and destroyed my village.

I called for the Assassins when I needed them most and they did nothing. I even held their Creed as vital as air and water.

But then I had realized: For if everything is permitted, who's to say any of us are truly safe? :rolleyes:

DemonLord4lf
02-20-2015, 07:41 AM
Indeed, but my ideology doesn't align with the Assassins and their Creed...not anymore.

I was an Assassin once, yes, but all that changed when the nine tails attacked and destroyed my village.

I called for the Assassins when I needed them most and they did nothing. I even held their Creed as vital as air and water.


For if everything is permitted, who's to say any of us are safe? :rolleyes:

Oh is that where my nine tai...errrr i mean thats terrible >.>

Namikaze_17
02-20-2015, 07:45 AM
Oh is that where my nine tai...errrr i mean thats terrible >.>

Ah, forget it. The village is safe now.

My son made sure. :rolleyes:

DemonLord4lf
02-20-2015, 07:47 AM
Ah, forget it. The village is safe now. My son made sure. :rolleyes:Your son wouldn't happen to be Naruto would he? If so, he owes me a nine tails demon >:O

Also

http://cdn.styleforum.net/3/31/312482cd_runaway_train_derailed_thread_soul_asylum .jpeg

Namikaze_17
02-20-2015, 08:04 AM
Your son wouldn't happen to be Naruto would he? If so, he owes me a nine tails demon >:O

Also

http://cdn.styleforum.net/3/31/312482cd_runaway_train_derailed_thread_soul_asylum .jpeg

Why, of course. And five others as well. ^__^

But off-topic indeed. :rolleyes:

---

But yeah guys! Shay was so right for ditching them Assassins. :p

DemonLord4lf
02-20-2015, 08:43 AM
Why, of course. And five others as well. ^__^

But off-topic indeed. :rolleyes:

---

But yeah guys! Shay was so right for ditching them Assassins. :p

No!!! No getting back on topic!!! You saw the meme!!!

Defalt221
02-20-2015, 10:10 AM
you will do so again. :rolleyes:

Does that mean Connor will return to play his part? NEW Connor game confirmed!!!

Hans684
02-20-2015, 06:37 PM
Does that mean Connor will return to play his part? NEW Connor game confirmed!!!

You simply Ignored my wall of tekst, to deep?

Connor's blond wife takes their kid(s) and leaves him, he dies alone wondering where it all went wrong. :rolleyes:

DemonLord4lf
02-21-2015, 02:59 AM
You simply Ignored my wall of tekst, to deep?

Connor's blond wife takes their kid(s) and leaves him, he dies alone wondering where it all went wrong. :rolleyes:

According to the Templars. Who we all know are very honest people and never manipulate the truth :rolleyes:

Hans684
02-21-2015, 11:39 AM
According to the Templars. Who we all know are very honest people and never manipulate the truth :rolleyes:

And the Assassins never do it, their good guys :rolleyes:

Defalt221
02-21-2015, 06:15 PM
And the Assassins never do it, their good guys :rolleyes:

Then...Assassins FTW!!!

Hans684
02-21-2015, 07:27 PM
Then...Assassins FTW!!!

I was sarcastic, they have manipulated truth themselves since there isn't a single truth. There is no single path trough life that is right and does no harm, it's only a matter of perspective.

VestigialLlama4
02-21-2015, 08:00 PM
I was sarcastic, they have manipulated truth themselves since there isn't a single truth. There is no single path trough life that is right and does no harm, it's only a matter of perspective.

I am struggling to remember when the Assassins have re-edited footage and use company propaganda to clean up their past. The first thing the Assassins tell newcomers is that they are murderers whereas Templars always decieve people about their far more murderous and brutish purpose. That's the nature of the conflict between them, the Assassins are honest while the Templars are self-denying hypocrites.

In any case, Assassins will face up to their mistakes like Achilles did at the end of ROGUE whereas Haytham will never stop to consider that the Order he got into by becoming a puppet to his father's murderer might have a few flaws to it or that his plan to become a dictator of America with Charles Lee as a Puppet might have problems since his candidate has no real political skills, or personal hygiene to start with.

DemonLord4lf
02-21-2015, 08:00 PM
I was sarcastic, they have manipulated truth themselves since there isn't a single truth. There is no single path trough life that is right and does no harm, it's only a matter of perspective.

Except for Chaos. We could care less about the truth, so we don't bother trying to cover it up. ^_^