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loomer979
02-18-2015, 10:03 PM
Hey everyone, the new episode of The Assassin's Den podcast with Dan Jeannotte is finally here! It's one of the longest episodes yet but I think there's a lot to dig into with Unity and Arno so I hope you all enjoy it!

Timestamp shortcuts (these are clickable in the YouTube video description, and an mp3 download is provided there as well)
0:00 - Intro / How did Dan get involved in AC Unity?
8:10 - British accents in Unity / Could Dan have done a French accent?
19:02 - Arno's personality and development
25:20 - Arno's motivation... redemption or revenge? For himself or Elise?
33:14 - Shared aspects of Arno and Dan - More discussion of Arno's personality
40:27 - What does Arno think of his father's death? What if Arno met Shay?
52:18 - Could Elise have persuaded Arno to be a Templar?
59:00 - Is peace between Assassins and Templars possible? Thoughts on Bellec
1:02:18 - Favorite Arno lines, and Dan reads some excerpts from the Unity novel and Abstergo Handbook
1:19:45 - Arno and Napoleon
1:25:08 - Working with the other actors / Stories from the set
1:37:21 - Thoughts on the endings of Unity and Dead Kings
1:45:14 - Was Arno right to follow his heart instead of the Creed?
1:46:19 - Arno's future
1:49:04 - What's next for Dan? / Goodbyes


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qwLGihv-zY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qwLGihv-zY)

Fatal-Feit
02-18-2015, 10:04 PM
Sweetness!

Rather Death Than Slavery <- Exactly the music I wanted on my podcast. =p

JustPlainQuirky
02-18-2015, 10:06 PM
*skips immediately to 40:27 and 1:37:21*

Jk will listen to all of it once I relocate later today.

Thanks Looms.

Who are your next guests?

*coughs* Tristan and Adrian *coughs*

Alphacos007
02-18-2015, 10:06 PM
Great!

aL_____eX
02-18-2015, 10:07 PM
Thanks once again Loomer! :o

edit: Fatal, listen to it carefully! :P

loomer979
02-18-2015, 10:10 PM
*skips immediately to 40:27 and 1:37:21*

Jk will listen to all of it once I relocate later today.

Thanks Looms.

Who are your next guests?

*coughs* Tristan and Adrian *coughs*

Tristan and Adrian could be fun at some point. In the near future it's probably gonna be a lot of the writers though. I also need to take a short (1 month or so) hiatus cause I'm moving apartments.

Fatal-Feit
02-18-2015, 10:12 PM
Thanks once again Loomer! :o

edit: Fatal, listen to it carefully! :P

http://i.imgur.com/C6SOQww.jpg

2 hours...

*grabs popcorn*

JustPlainQuirky
02-18-2015, 10:16 PM
Two hours this time? You spoil us, looms~ <3


Tristan and Adrian could be fun at some point. In the near future it's probably gonna be a lot of the writers though. I also need to take a short (1 month or so) hiatus cause I'm moving apartments.

I have some questions for the writer of Rogue but....the writer of Unity? eeeehhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Good luck with that if you decide to do it.

Also best of luck with your apartment moving. You deserve rest :)

Mr_Shade
02-18-2015, 10:17 PM
Excellent work as always Loomer ;)

DemonLord4lf
02-18-2015, 10:25 PM
Ah... none of my questions were asked
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-BF9O257vsz4/TyUP4mCraNI/AAAAAAAAA3E/eu0CzyGirPQ/s1600/Sad_Panda_Chibi_by_mongrelssister.png

Fatal-Feit
02-18-2015, 10:26 PM
OFF-TOPIC: As a wannabe future host for AC, I look up to you, Loomer. Interviewing the real deals. May I one day share the same privilege. OTL

JustPlainQuirky
02-18-2015, 10:27 PM
May I one day share the same privilege. OTL

Might as well. Y'all share the same voice :rolleyes:

rrebe
02-18-2015, 10:30 PM
It's finally here

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lqrdi8HiVY1qht847.gif



lmao not even 5 minutes in and I'm already dying. Awesome :cool:

aL_____eX
02-18-2015, 10:35 PM
It's finally here

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lqrdi8HiVY1qht847.gif



lmao not even 5 minutes in and I'm already dying. Awesome :cool:
http://static1.gamespot.com/uploads/original/1544/15443861/2732023-289650_screenshots_2014-11-11_00006.jpg

Fatal-Feit
02-18-2015, 10:36 PM
might as well. Y'all share the same voice :rolleyes:

hogwash

Shahkulu101
02-18-2015, 10:49 PM
2 hours?!

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/293/590/6f6.gif

Fatal-Feit
02-18-2015, 11:57 PM
Being a scrawny smart-*** is a quality I share, as well. It's not something to be proud of, but damn I wouldn't have it any other way.

Might as well start cosplaying Arno because he's practically Assassin me. Wait no, teenage Connor first. =p

EmptyCrustacean
02-19-2015, 12:09 AM
His answers regarding the French accent proves I was always right.
Ubisoft pandered to the American audience because Americans are really weird about accents that aren't American or British.

A shame too because when he put on the French accent he sounded very convincing and his attempt at the English accent is horrid.

EmptyCrustacean
02-19-2015, 12:12 AM
And the guy interviewing was awesome lol

SixKeys
02-19-2015, 12:12 AM
His answers regarding the French accent proves I was always right.
Ubisoft pandered to the American audience because Americans are really weird about accents that aren't American or British.

A shame too because when he put on the French accent he sounded very convincing and his attempt at the English accent is horrid.

Are you French?

EmptyCrustacean
02-19-2015, 12:22 AM
Are you French?

No. British!

Assassin_M
02-19-2015, 12:45 AM
Great podcast, Loomer, as always. Don't really agree that one fake accent is more historically accurate than the other. They spoke French. They didn't speak English with an accent. Accuracy dictates strictly French. I don't think accents belong in an argument about historical accuracy

dargor5
02-19-2015, 01:10 AM
This was like Ezio's VA interview, Dan's regular voice sounds nothing like Arno
Totally agree with Dan as to why british accents, that makes very much sense. If they would have done a french accent I would have thought it was arabic or something like that.

"Shay Patric Cormac you killed my father and I'm comming for you" That should have been in game

JustPlainQuirky
02-19-2015, 01:44 AM
Aaaaaand home.

Time for 2 hours of juicy loomer goodness

...

that sounded more inappropriate than i anticipated

DemonLord4lf
02-19-2015, 01:48 AM
Aaaaaand home.

Time for 2 hours of juicy loomer goodness

...

that sounded more inappropriate than i anticipated

But you anticipated inappropriateness

YodaySunrider
02-19-2015, 02:01 AM
Oh wow, quite a long one. Can't wait! The topic on hand sounds really interesting, so this should be a fun listen while at work tonight. Thanks guys!

JustPlainQuirky
02-19-2015, 04:06 AM
>glad it was clarified plenty liked Dan's performance regardless of Arno's character. Hope he feels better about the situation
>still think british accents is stupid. i have trouble differentiating accents but the idea itself bothers me. but it wont kill me. love loomer made the hollywood analogy
>I like Dan's explanation for Arno not seeking revenge. I didn't think about it before but it makes sense. I do think he would at least speak to Shay if he saw him
>TRILOGY OF GAMES STARRING ARNO lmfao no no no no no no no no no no no no
>"It'll probably happen in one of the novels or something" LAAAAWD PLEASE LORDY LORD PRAISE LET THIS BE
>omfg intense conversation between shay and arno would be amaaaazing
>Templar Arno and Assassin Shay needs to be an AU DLC :rolleyes:
>loomer making statements on elise i agree with wholeheartedly. *highfives*
>legacy outfit sooooo spoiled pierre's death IKR
>Arno2meta4mi
>Dat french Arno
>GAAAAH MISSED OPPORTUNITY TO SAY "YOU KILLED MY FATHER, PREPARE TO DIE" HNNGHH
>OH LAWD LOOMER Y U MAKE DAT YAOI REFERENCE NOW I HAVE TO MAKE A TUMBLR THING OF IT
>"stop whining pisspot and get in position" <--- more yaoi potential
>the "im tired of your **** ___" tradition continues :rolleyes:
>LOOMER I AGREE WITH THE FORUMS CENSORSHIP! PRAIIISE PRAAAIIIIISE
>"go jump off of notradame" they always add their cute flaire to it ;)
>"kickstart that ****" omfg loomer i love you
>PS I would TOTALLY go through thousands of hours of content just to import the animations onto the skeletons and put on the audio. #worth
>LITERALLY MEGABYTES
>HAHHA LOOMER "CONNOR'S WIFE LEAVES HIM! YOU HAPPY?!" AHAHAHJAKsasfdkja
>"and all the glitches were the animus-es fault" DAYYYUUUM LOOMER GOT DEM SICK BURNS MAD RESPECT Ajhsjfhkdf
>COP OUT COP OUT COP OUT LOOMER IS CALLING THEM OOOOOOOUT I LOOOOOOOOOVE YOU LOOMER I LOOOOOOOVE YOU omfg omfg you got guts yo
>Mexico...mexico..MEXICO. There we have it folks. Arno, Aveline, Eseosa, and Connor vs Shay in Mexico. We're done folks. We can all go home

I enjoyed this much more than I thought I would, but for vastly different reasons than expected

Shahkulu101
02-19-2015, 04:26 AM
Damn Loomer really burned Ubi about the Connor treatment among other things!

Well done for speaking your mind mate, mad respect. :cool:

JustPlainQuirky
02-19-2015, 04:28 AM
Damn Loomer really burned Ubi about the Connor treatment among other things!

Well done for speaking your mind mate, mad respect. :cool:

Yes I was not prepared for the sick burns. Shots fired. Shots fired and battleships were sunk.

http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNUS_16-50_mk7_Missouri_projectiles_flight.jpg

My body is still in shock.

infinite respect level

Glad to see someone with tight connections with Ubi directly and openly calling things out while at the same time retaining mutual respect. Really means a lot.

1:44 (sarcastically) "yeah and all the bugs in Unity were the Animus' fault"

I still can't get over this burn

THIS BURN

TOO INTENSE MY LORD

http://mrwgifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/Jon-Stewart-Oh-My-God-MRW-Gif.gif

Fatal-Feit
02-19-2015, 05:57 AM
Loomer: People compare him to Ezio, but he's more like Connor.

http://img.pandawhale.com/post-31053-thank-you-gif-Zach-Galifianaki-LA0p.gif

@ENDING - GG, LOOMER. GG. :cool:

Namikaze_17
02-19-2015, 06:53 AM
Damn Loomer really burned Ubi about the Connor treatment among other things!

I was like:

http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--t2T_6EQC--/198qj0pvzn5wqgif.gif

I-Like-Pie45
02-19-2015, 07:12 AM
^man ellie was so hot in that game

I wish I could've eaten her

DemonLord4lf
02-19-2015, 07:17 AM
^man ellie was so hot in that game

I wish I could've eaten her

http://makeameme.org/media/created/you-and-me-nv03fg.jpg

Green_Reaper
02-19-2015, 07:37 AM
This was like Ezio's VA interview, Dan's regular voice sounds nothing like Arno


Obviously not the accent, but I felt like the tone was definitely there though. He did background characters in ACIII but I could still recognize him. I think he did a good job with the accent. He would have been great as a modern day protag. as Arno's descendant w/out the accent if they ever did one.:cool:

GunnerGalactico
02-19-2015, 11:35 AM
Damn Loomer really burned Ubi about the Connor treatment among other things!

Well done for speaking your mind mate, mad respect. :cool:


Loomer: People compare him to Ezio, but he's more like Connor.

http://img.pandawhale.com/post-31053-thank-you-gif-Zach-Galifianaki-LA0p.gif

@ENDING - GG, LOOMER. GG. :cool:

^^ Very good! :cool:

http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120812074350/deadliestfiction/images/9/9d/Applause.gif

I've really been waiting to see this one. It was worth watching the entire podcast.

pirate1802
02-19-2015, 11:53 AM
http://makeameme.org/media/created/you-and-me-nv03fg.jpg

He said Ellie, not Elise

Fatal-Feit
02-19-2015, 02:18 PM
http://cdn.meme.am/instances/250x250/59193348.jpg

aL_____eX
02-19-2015, 03:48 PM
http://cdn.meme.am/instances/250x250/59193348.jpg
*plays mexican music*

SixKeys
02-19-2015, 04:05 PM
No. British!

If you're not French, how do you know Dan's French accent was convincing? Ezio's Italian sounds horrid to real Italians.

VestigialLlama4
02-19-2015, 04:41 PM
If you're not French, how do you know Dan's French accent was convincing? Ezio's Italian sounds horrid to real Italians.

Well Arno's British Accent sounded bad to some English people as well, like Prometheus here (he pointed out that it was an attempt by a Canadian drama school kid at sounding RSC English). But here's the difference, Ezio's Italian sounds bad to a few Italians (and only a few since the fans it has elsewhere, cf the Italian site, "Access the Animus" proves otherwise), Arno's British accent sounds out of place to the whole planet. Conan O'Brien put it best, "Yes father, I live in France, but I 'ave a British accent". I mean even if they tried to imitate the accents of Maurice Chevalier and Charles Boyer (two major French superstars whose Hollywood roles inspired French stereotypes in Anglo-American pop culture) they would have been more authentic than what they do here.

There's no cut-and-dried reason why accents work or don't work. But that doesn't justify false logic and stupid ideas either.

Stripes__
02-19-2015, 05:07 PM
Has there been a podcast with Philip Shahba, the voice actor for Alta´r in the first game?

Fatal-Feit
02-19-2015, 05:18 PM
Nada.

I-Like-Pie45
02-19-2015, 05:18 PM
I think Philip Shahbaz is dead

Megas_Doux
02-19-2015, 05:26 PM
Well Arno's British Accent sounded bad to some English people as well, like Prometheus here (he pointed out that it was an attempt by a Canadian drama school kid at sounding RSC English). But here's the difference, Ezio's Italian sounds bad to a few Italians (and only a few since the fans it has elsewhere, cf the Italian site, "Access the Animus" proves otherwise), Arno's British accent sounds out of place to the whole planet. Conan O'Brien put it best, "Yes father, I live in France, but I 'ave a British accent". I mean even if they tried to imitate the accents of Maurice Chevalier and Charles Boyer (two major French superstars whose Hollywood roles inspired French stereotypes in Anglo-American pop culture) they would have been more authentic than what they do here.

There's no cut-and-dried reason why accents work or don't work. But that doesn't justify false logic and stupid ideas either.

This issue can be summarized this way: " I dont care whether the accent is bad or not as long I hear an accent that sounds similar to the way I believe it should sound. With the exception of mine of course, that one has to be perfect".

If I had a nickle for everytime I have seen, read or heard an anglophone from the islands complaining about how awful their accents are portrayed in "hollywood" media I would be able to buy Ubisoft and tell them do the next AC the way I want.....


For example NPC┤s in AC I speak Turkish and not Arab, which historically is super inaccurate and also I have also been told by some arab native speakers that ACR┤s Altair is bad and AC I┤s is way better. However, since its sounds "foreign" and "exotic" to the way many think it "should" sound, ACR┤s one is more popular......


I dont know why this is SUCH a big hassle. I mean, Ben hur, The Man in the Iron mask, Jesus of Nazareth, El Cid and God of War, just to name a few, dont have that "proper" accent, yet you dont see all this fuss about it.

Shahkulu101
02-19-2015, 05:52 PM
This one time, I went to France, and everybody was speaking English in a French accent

VestigialLlama4
02-19-2015, 05:59 PM
" I dont care whether the accent is bad or not as long I hear an accent that sounds similar to the way I believe it should sound. With the exception of mine of course, that one has to be perfect".

Well it's more like "I don't care whether the accent is bad or not, as long as 1) The writing is decent, 2) It fits the tone and general theme of the story and medium, 3) It has some consistency." The accents would not have been an issue if Points 1, 2 and 3 were met. The other games at least met two of the three points but Unity fails on all three counts at least by my reckoning. I will concede at the very least that while Points 1 and 2 are subjective, point 3 is not.

Now what do I mean by consistency? Okay, they had stylish Italianate accents in the Ezio games, but it fit the tone and general theme because it was about the fantasy and exoticism of Renaissance Italy and the makers had this fixation of using Italian names and phrases. So everyone called Rome "Roma" and so on, it added to the sense of time travel and being in another place and time for the vast majority of gamers. There's also the justification that there is no one Italian accent anyway, it's a highly heteregenous nation with multiple regional accents. My guess is that since the Italian they use largely consists of insults and choice phrases its based more on Roman and other street slang (of the borgate, a dead class of street gangs from the 60s) than anything else, and mostly they use this opera Italian accent to add to the exotic touristy feeling. In AC3, Connor clearly sounds like he speaks English from a textbook, doesn't use contractions and the like, to emphasize his outsider nature to the period and that English is his second language. So it has a consistency and fits it. In Black Flag, they actually researched actual nautrical slang and Welsh accents to bring the Pirate era to life, so you hear many working-class English accents while Torres speaks with a posh and elegant Spanish accent.

In Unity, with Arno and all Frenchmen speaking in faux-Victorian English accents, you have educated posh jerks like Arno sound like toffs while Pierre Bellec is this English barfly, street toughs speak like Cockneys and so on, while Mirabeau and de la Serre speak like MPs in the Parliament. I cannot see how it is in any way consistent to the world they are building, it doesn't add to any feeling of France in the 1790s, leave alone PARIS in the 1790s.

Okay the developers have stated that they wanted to avoid the historical stuff or the political aspects of the Revolution and simply make a cash-grab game, well why not be fully consistent and give us 20th Century American accents, surely not any less authentic than British accents. Then I would have thought okay at least they are being honest to its intentions, why do the pretentious English accents to give a faux-period touch when it's a complete slander to the period and its history?

Stripes__
02-19-2015, 06:08 PM
Nada.

That should be the next podcast then!
Now how do we make sure Loomer or Esco see this? :p


I think Philip Shahbaz is dead
No, he's not.

Farlander1991
02-19-2015, 06:12 PM
I've seen a lot of people use AC3 and BF as a reference regarding accents in discussions, while that's absolutely inappropriate (unlike comparisons with AC1/AC2). In the podcast there's too, 'oh they researched it for historical accuracy'. But... that's not the point.

When we hear people speak English with an accent in AC3/BF, that's because they're actually speaking English with their own accent (and in games like AC4 we can hear their native tongues as well, that's because they're speaking their actual native tongues), while when we hear people speak in AC1/AC2/ACU, They're actually speaking arabic, Italian and French, but we're hearing them as English, therefore there is no necessarily right choice in the matter of what to do with accents.

To be honest, I prefer the ACU way. AC2 has quite frankly a lot of horrible voice acting, some of it has to do with people trying to keep their accents (which I don't know how Italian they are, because I don't know Italian... I know Romanian which might be considered close enough) and just overdoing it or being too stiff.

dargor5
02-19-2015, 06:24 PM
Well it's more like "I don't care whether the accent is bad or not, as long as 1) The writing is decent, 2) It fits the tone and general theme of the story and medium, 3) It has some consistency." The accents would not have been an issue if Points 1, 2 and 3 were met. The other games at least met two of the three points but Unity fails on all three counts at least by my reckoning. I will concede at the very least that while Points 1 and 2 are subjective, point 3 is not.

Now what do I mean by consistency? Okay, they had stylish Italianate accents in the Ezio games, but it fit the tone and general theme because it was about the fantasy and exoticism of Renaissance Italy and the makers had this fixation of using Italian names and phrases. So everyone called Rome "Roma" and so on, it added to the sense of time travel and being in another place and time for the vast majority of gamers. There's also the justification that there is no one Italian accent anyway, it's a highly heteregenous nation with multiple regional accents. My guess is that since the Italian they use largely consists of insults and choice phrases its based more on Roman and other street slang (of the borgate, a dead class of street gangs from the 60s) than anything else, and mostly they use this opera Italian accent to add to the exotic touristy feeling. In AC3, Connor clearly sounds like he speaks English from a textbook, doesn't use contractions and the like, to emphasize his outsider nature to the period and that English is his second language. So it has a consistency and fits it. In Black Flag, they actually researched actual nautrical slang and Welsh accents to bring the Pirate era to life, so you hear many working-class English accents while Torres speaks with a posh and elegant Spanish accent.

In Unity, with Arno and all Frenchmen speaking in faux-Victorian English accents, you have educated posh jerks like Arno sound like toffs while Pierre Bellec is this English barfly, street toughs speak like Cockneys and so on, while Mirabeau and de la Serre speak like MPs in the Parliament. I cannot see how it is in any way consistent to the world they are building, it doesn't add to any feeling of France in the 1790s, leave alone PARIS in the 1790s.

Okay the developers have stated that they wanted to avoid the historical stuff or the political aspects of the Revolution and simply make a cash-grab game, well why not be fully consistent and give us 20th Century American accents, surely not any less authentic than British accents. Then I would have thought okay at least they are being honest to its intentions, why do the pretentious English accents to give a faux-period touch when it's a complete slander to the period and its history?
Dan even stated this on the pod cast. They used british accents because thats how people see it from the old world. In his examples see Gladiator which had all british accents and many movies and tv shows done in Ancient Europe are in british accent. That miht be something wrongly imposed by Hollywood but thats how the mayority of people see it right.
An American accent on a Game thats supposed in Europe would have sound even worst than french people speaking perfect british English

VestigialLlama4
02-19-2015, 06:30 PM
I've seen a lot of people use AC3 and BF as a reference regarding accents in discussions, while that's absolutely inappropriate (unlike comparisons with AC1/AC2). In the podcast there's too, 'oh they researched it for historical accuracy'.

How is that inappropriate? If Connor spoke in a "Me Connor. Where Charles Lee" way or constantly kept invoking the Peace Pipe and the Great Spirit, you think that would be appropriate? Like in BLACK FLAG, Darby McDevitt made the joke of Olivier Garneau stating that he wanted to change Edward Kenway's peasant accent to an aristocratic posh accent like James Bond. The accents were a big part of the world they were in and the class they were in. Connor is a Native American outsider who speaks English in a second language, Edward is an upjumped peasant (Julien du Casse calls him "Filthy peasant" and Woodes Rogers stating that Kenway's parents are "motley") turned Pirate.

The fact is because its an Anglophone setting, it allows them to go into details about class and manner of speech with better accuracy since English is the international language and its speakers are the main audience of the games. And those games because they had better writers made points about class and society in that manner. To simply say that its "inappropriate" does little credit to the hard work and imagination put into those games.



when we hear people speak in AC1/AC2/ACU, They're actually speaking arabic, Italian and French, but we're hearing them as English, therefore there is no necessarily right choice in the matter of what to do with accents.

I actually agree with this, its entirely a matter of consistency and aesthetic purpose. In UNITY they did this to avoid the "pepe-le-pew" stereotype but in the end, their solution was not very good because it didn't actually connect in any way to the setting and story, because it was a pretentious attitude. If they had given full American accents it might have worked.

Shahkulu101
02-19-2015, 06:35 PM
How would American accents be any different from English?

Because Altair used one? He was the only one in the entire game that didn't speak with an Arabic accent.

VestigialLlama4
02-19-2015, 06:38 PM
An American accent on a Game thats supposed in Europe would have sound even worst than french people speaking perfect british English

Have you ever seen AMADEUS directed by the European Milos Forman, the movie that won many Oscars. In that Mozart (Tom Hulce) speaks with an American accent as does his wife (who sounds like a New Joisey wife) and several others. Or Martin Scorsese's THE LAST TEMPTATION OF CHRIST where Jesus (played by Willem Dafoe) speaks in a LA accent, the Apostles speak like Brooklynites and Saint Paul(Harry Dean Stanton) sounds like a Southern Preacher. The whole BBC British accent thing was a cliche that film-makers mocked and made fun-of back in the day when they made good films.

Megas_Doux
02-19-2015, 06:49 PM
Okay, they had stylish Italianate accents in the Ezio games, but it fit the tone and general theme because it was about the fantasy and exoticism of Renaissance Italy and the makers had this fixation of using Italian names and phrases. So everyone called Rome "Roma" and so on, it added to the sense of time travel and being in another place and time for the vast majority of gamers


How would American accents be any different from English?

Because Altair used one? He was the only one in the entire game that didn't speak with an Arabic accent.



That DOES NOT make it automatically correct and/or accurate! To the vast majority of gamers the Sarracens NPC┤s are "accurate" because " it added to the sense of time travel and being in another place and time" yet those NPC┤s are speaking Turkish instead Arab.......

And that belongs to what I wrote above - and MANY times before " I dont care whether the accent is ACCURATE or not as long I hear an accent that sounds similar to the way I believe it should sound. With the exception of mine of course, that one has to be perfect"..



How is that inappropriate? If Connor spoke in a "Me Connor. Where Charles Lee" way or constantly kept invoking the Peace Pipe and the Great Spirit, you think that would be appropriate?
In UNITY they did this to avoid the "pepe-le-pew" stereotype......

Ezio┤s persona along with characters in the likes of Cesare Borgia, Francesco de Pazzi and d'Alviano come REALLY close, for italians, to those stereotypes you said; Suave womanizer that doesn't take anything too serious and/or foul-mouthed people that yeal all the time.

We┤ve had this discussion MANY times and kinda baffles me that you are trying to convince me, a half italian, native speaker who lived in that country for 15 years, that they are speaking "italian" in somewhat of an accurate accent - THEY ARE NOT- and/or about the stereotypes I┤ve faced.


Have you ever seen AMADEUS directed by the European Milos Forman, the movie that won many Oscars. In that Mozart (Tom Hulce) speaks with an American accent as does his wife (who sounds like a New Joisey wife) and several others. Or Martin Scorsese's THE LAST TEMPTATION OF CHRIST where Jesus (played by Willem Dafoe) speaks in a LA accent, the Apostles speak like Brooklynites and Saint Paul(Harry Dean Stanton) sounds like a Southern Preacher. The whole BBC British accent thing was a cliche that film-makers mocked and made fun-of back in the day when they made good films.

Exactly!!!!! I prefer listening to the actor┤s ORIGINAL voices instead of goofy/fake accents JUST BECAUSE......

VestigialLlama4
02-19-2015, 07:31 PM
That DOES NOT make it automatically correct and/or accurate! To the vast majority of gamers the Sarracens NPC┤s are "accurate" because " it added to the sense of time travel and being in another place and time" yet those NPC┤s are speaking Turkish instead Arab.......

So we can't forgive errors and small slights? It has to be neo-documentary or bust, no gradations? AC was the first major Console Release with an Arab Muslim as the Hero, okay the variations and use of accents weren't perfect but if Altair talked like a posh fancy a--hole like Arno rather than the poor Arab orphan who got an education thanks to the Assassins, well it would be no more "accurate" than what you describe, but it would totally ruin the game.


We┤ve had this discussion MANY times and kinda baffles me that you are trying to convince me, a half italian, native speaker who lived in that country for 15 years, that they are speaking "italian" in somewhat of an accurate accent - THEY ARE NOT- and/or about the stereotypes I┤ve faced.

I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but the thing is, I have seen many people online make claims that they are experts because they know the language (rather than cite a source who wrote a critique) and since its perfectly unverifiable online, I take any claims that "I am secrelty a speaker of Italian", with a huge grain of salt. Secondly, Italy's a nation with a huge diversity of regional accents and it was only since the introduction of Television you had regional accents dying out, so if you say the Italian is wrong, I'd like to know from which perspective. A lot of Italian stereotypes from Hollywood are based on immigrants from Sicily and Naples (the "O sole mio" crowd) rather than the Romagna-Lazio-Milan Northern majority. Roman slums had their own accent variations and so on. Most Italian films are dubbed after production to remove regionalisms in actor's accents, so given how confused Italian culture itself is about its accent, I don't think AC2 is any hatchet job.

France for instance and Paris especially has a long tradition of maintaining linguistic hegemony and standards and so on. Accents were a huge part of the Revolution, people made fun of Robespierre because of his provincial accent, and Napoleon never lost his Genoan-Corsican accent. In the game Napoleon sounds like a Sandhurst Career Officer, ideally he should sound like Ezio Auditore and the real Napoleon was quite fond of lapsing into vulgar Italian and the like.

Shahkulu101
02-19-2015, 07:42 PM
But Altair wasn't speaking like a poor Arab boy, he was American.

How is that any better than English accents?

Green_Reaper
02-19-2015, 07:43 PM
How would American accents be any different from English?

Because Altair used one? He was the only one in the entire game that didn't speak with an Arabic accent.

He did speak some lines of Arabic though. I think his voice actor was even fluent with the language.

SixKeys
02-19-2015, 07:50 PM
Some people are saying that using British accents was wrong because the devs separated the dumb or evil NPCs (Cockney Templars) from the good guys (posh Arno). This is a really common trope and I agree it's not necessary. But then the problem isn't the fact that they're using British accents, it's an issue of using certain dialects to depict class*. Had they used American accents instead, they probably would have done the same thing by making all the bad guys sound like Cletus the Slackjawed Yokel with a mid-western accent. So the problem wasn't the choice of accent, it's how they're choosing to use dialects for characterization.

I recently listened to Loomer's interview with Roger Craig Smith again and he talked a lot about creating Ezio's accent and how it was deliberately inaccurate. Sometimes he would soften the R's into a more American pronunciation because the more accurate pronunciation sounded silly, or he would use a Spanish intonation to make Ezio sound sexier and stuff like that. So his accent was not "more authentic" at all. They flat-out admitted "yeah, we knew this was inaccurate, but American audiences wouldn't have accepted it if we did it right". How is that any better?

Also, like Farlander said, sometimes in the old games the voice-acting was really over the top as actors clearly couldn't decide whether to make it as campy as possible with the fake Italian or whether to give a more convincing performance. I hear the same thing in ACU. Sometimes there are over-the-top performances from the Cockney guards because they'd rather make the line humorous than convincing. Why is it only offensive when they do it with British or American but not when they do it with other languages?


* This is evident in AC3 too, BTW. Hickey, the crudest and least educated Templar is the only one without a posh accent.

EmptyCrustacean
02-19-2015, 08:03 PM
How would American accents be any different from English?

Because Altair used one? He was the only one in the entire game that didn't speak with an Arabic accent.

And it sounded absolutely ridiculous.

aL_____eX
02-19-2015, 08:09 PM
Isn't it very common to use British accents in history based shows and games? Just came to my mind because I'm watching Spartacus at the moment and I've seen more shows with mostly British actors and/or British accents.

Shahkulu101
02-19-2015, 08:10 PM
And it sounded absolutely ridiculous.

Yes, but VestigiaLlama is arguing that an American accent is somehow better than using an English accent. I want to know why.

My personal take is that they should just use foreign language and subtitles, but that won't happen as people don't like to read for some reason. I mean can you imagine how ridiculous a China game would sound if they didn't take that approach. Either the Chinese would speak with terribly bad accents (case in point; Shao Jun) or in ridiculously out of place English or American accents.

EmptyCrustacean
02-19-2015, 08:11 PM
Some people are saying that using British accents was wrong because the devs separated the dumb or evil NPCs (Cockney Templars) from the good guys (posh Arno). This is a really common trope and I agree it's not necessary. But then the problem isn't the fact that they're using British accents, it's an issue of using certain dialects to depict class*. Had they used American accents instead, they probably would have done the same thing by making all the bad guys sound like Cletus the Slackjawed Yokel with a mid-western accent. So the problem wasn't the choice of accent, it's how they're choosing to use dialects for characterization.

I recently listened to Loomer's interview with Roger Craig Smith again and he talked a lot about creating Ezio's accent and how it was deliberately inaccurate. Sometimes he would soften the R's into a more American pronunciation because the more accurate pronunciation sounded silly, or he would use a Spanish intonation to make Ezio sound sexier and stuff like that. So his accent was not "more authentic" at all. They flat-out admitted "yeah, we knew this was inaccurate, but American audiences wouldn't have accepted it if we did it right". How is that any better?

Also, like Farlander said, sometimes in the old games the voice-acting was really over the top as actors clearly couldn't decide whether to make it as campy as possible with the fake Italian or whether to give a more convincing performance. I hear the same thing in ACU. Sometimes there are over-the-top performances from the Cockney guards because they'd rather make the line humorous than convincing. Why is it only offensive when they do it with British or American but not when they do it with other languages?


* This is evident in AC3 too, BTW. Hickey, the crudest and least educated Templar is the only one without a posh accent.

In AC2 there is a complete difference in tone. The over-the-topness of the Italian accent is to represent the bombastic nature of Ezio himself and his world. It's a hyper exaggerated take on the Italian accent but still closer to Italian accent than anything. Unity, on the otherhand, uses English accents BADLY and sometimes they pronounce things in French which just makes it even stranger. Totally took me out.

DemonLord4lf
02-19-2015, 08:15 PM
^^ Very good! :cool:

http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120812074350/deadliestfiction/images/9/9d/Applause.gif

I've really been waiting to see this one. It was worth watching the entire podcast.

Why you steal my joker >:O

GunnerGalactico
02-19-2015, 08:28 PM
Why you steal my joker >:O

Oh, it was yours!? In that case you can have it back then. :cool:

DemonLord4lf
02-19-2015, 08:36 PM
Oh, it was yours!? In that case you can have it back then. :cool:

http://www.dcleaguers.it/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/Batman_Promo.jpg

Assassin_M
02-19-2015, 08:37 PM
1) Altair is not Muslim, lol. What did game did you play?
2) Accents are dumb, arguing over them is mundane. Actors should be able to speak the language of their characters. End of. Accents don't matter if they butcher language pronunciations. Case in point being Shabaz and Cas. It's mind boggling people are arguing what's accurate and what's not.

DemonLord4lf
02-19-2015, 08:38 PM
1) Altair is not Muslim, lol. What did game did you play?
2) Accents are dumb, arguing over them is mundane. Actors should be able to speak the language of their characters. End of. Accents don't matter if they butcher language pronunciations. Case in point being Shabaz and Cas. It's mind boggling people are arguing what's accurate and what's not.

But it's so much fun to watch

http://9thcivic.com/gallery/albums/post/joker_eatin_popcorn_by_capnectoplasm_d39sa07_1.gif

Megas_Doux
02-19-2015, 08:41 PM
So we can't forgive errors and small slights? It has to be neo-documentary or bust, no gradations? AC was the first major Console Release with an Arab Muslim as the Hero, okay the variations and use of accents weren't perfect but if Altair talked like a posh fancy a--hole like Arno rather than the poor Arab orphan who got an education thanks to the Assassins, well it would be no more "accurate" than what you describe, but it would totally ruin the game.
.

That┤s an "small error" yet the "cockney speaking" NPC┤s in Unity are the worst offense ever, double standards..........You dont even know how an arab speaker in general must sound, neither do in fact and 30 minutes ago you did not even know they were speaking turkish and not arab. So how do you know what is appropriate for " an Arab orphan who got an education thanks to the Assassins".





Secondly, Italy's a nation with a huge diversity of regional accents and it was only since the introduction of Television you had regional accents dying out, so if you say the Italian is wrong, I'd like to know from which perspective. A lot of Italian stereotypes from Hollywood are based on immigrants from Sicily and Naples (the "O sole mio" crowd) rather than the Romagna-Lazio-Milan Northern majority. Roman slums had their own accent variations and so on. Most Italian films are dubbed after production to remove regionalisms in actor's accents, so given how confused Italian culture itself is about its accent, I don't think AC2 is any hatchet job.

.

By the gods I already know that, thing is Ezio┤s and the majority of AC II/ACB actors are not even native, let alone speakers at all. Therefore NO specific accent from that country was aimed no less achieved. It genuinely sounds like that joke from Family Guy "Speaking italian", only less exaggerated, obviously:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JhuOicPFZY

If you don┤t want to believe, that┤s your choice...What would you have me do???? Send you a picture of my Passport/birth certificate??????? I would think though, you could believe in Loomer and Roger Craig, so here it is:



I recently listened to Loomer's interview with Roger Craig Smith again and he talked a lot about creating Ezio's accent and how it was deliberately inaccurate. Sometimes he would soften the R's into a more American pronunciation because the more accurate pronunciation sounded silly, or he would use a Spanish intonation to make Ezio sound sexier and stuff like that. So his accent was not "more authentic" at all. They flat-out admitted "yeah, we knew this was inaccurate, but American audiences wouldn't have accepted it if we did it right".


Yeah, this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-zw06IWe-A
19:52

SixKeys
02-19-2015, 09:01 PM
In AC2 there is a complete difference in tone. The over-the-topness of the Italian accent is to represent the bombastic nature of Ezio himself and his world. It's a hyper exaggerated take on the Italian accent but still closer to Italian accent than anything. Unity, on the otherhand, uses English accents BADLY and sometimes they pronounce things in French which just makes it even stranger. Totally took me out.

So how do you explain AC3? Why is it okay for AC3 to have bad, over-the-top performances (especially guards, who are all British, BTW, even bluecoats) when it's supposed to be more somber and serious in tone?

And I just told you the Italian was deliberately NOT ACCURATE. So how does it make any sense to say "it's still closer to Italian accent than anything"? It's not close to Italian, that's the point. It's an American actor doing a deliberately exaggerated stereotype mixed with Spanish. That's like saying Sylvester Stallone in Rocky would have made a great Ezio.

EmptyCrustacean
02-19-2015, 09:22 PM
Yes, but VestigiaLlama is arguing that an American accent is somehow better than using an English accent. I want to know why.

My personal take is that they should just use foreign language and subtitles, but that won't happen as people don't like to read for some reason. I mean can you imagine how ridiculous a China game would sound if they didn't take that approach. Either the Chinese would speak with terribly bad accents (case in point; Shao Jun) or in ridiculously out of place English or American accents.

My hearing is not as good as it used to be so I'm used to subtitles. I was tempted to turn the French language on for Unity but I didn't because I wanted to see what ubisoft intended for me. If I was to play Unity again - which I wouldn't - I would turn on the French language.

Regarding the language issue - it is not a problem for me if the Chinese speak in English because language is ultimately about understanding what is going on which is obviously crucial and some people find it difficult to use subtitles. This is why it's all the more important to maintain some sense of world building by at least having the actors speak in English but with an accent that is typical of a Chinese person speaking English.

EmptyCrustacean
02-19-2015, 09:32 PM
So how do you explain AC3? Why is it okay for AC3 to have bad, over-the-top performances (especially guards, who are all British, BTW, even bluecoats) when it's supposed to be more somber and serious in tone?

It's not. And to compare Ezio's accent to that of the bluecoats in AC3 is reaching. You are exaggerating how inaccurate his accent is to serve your argument. His accent wasn't out of place within the context of the game and he most certainly did not sound 'Spanish'. The bluecoats, on the other hand, is once again an example of Ubisoft being shrewdly aware that Americans cannot handle seeing themselves as the bad guys on screen - even if it's historically true. This was especially problematic in AC3 because we needed the bluecoats and the redcoats to be distinguished from one another.


And I just told you the Italian was deliberately NOT ACCURATE. So how does it make any sense to say "it's still closer to Italian accent than anything"? It's not close to Italian, that's the point. It's an American actor doing a deliberately exaggerated stereotype mixed with Spanish. That's like saying Sylvester Stallone in Rocky would have made a great Ezio.

I don't give a damn what you just 'told' me. I'm TELLING YOU Ezio's accent was not that out of place. It is one thing to add a couple of inflections here and there to give the accent a unique spin, it is another to abandon it entirely in favour of a different accent altogether! Like American (Altair), English (Arno). Know the difference.

SixKeys
02-19-2015, 09:55 PM
It's not. And to compare Ezio's accent to that of the bluecoats in AC3 is reaching. You are exaggerating how inaccurate his accent is to serve your argument. His accent wasn't out of place within the context of the game and he most certainly did not sound 'Spanish'.

Dude, we have a real Italian person in this thread (Megas_Doux) telling you Ezio's Italian sounds fake. If you won't take my word for it, take his. Roger Craig Smith himself admits in the podcast that he auditioned with a sort of Antonio Banderas fake Spanish accent and landed the role that way. Only after he was cast did they call in an accent coach, and he STILL kept using a Spanish intonation when he thought it sounded better than a more accurate Italian accent. So your argument about "he sounded convincing" is moot because he does not actually sound Italian. He sounds like what non-Italians think Italian sounds like. It would not be any better for Arno to have a fake French accent, because no doubt it would sound just as bad to people who actually speak French.

Otso Berg in Rogue is supposed to be Finnish, but he sounds nothing like a Finn. I would much rather have him speak with an American or British accent than butchering my language without clearly having done zero research. It's lazy and insulting, and the fact that English speaking people think that Otso having this completely made up, fake accent that in no way, shape or form sounds like the character's native language makes him "more convincing" is utterly ridiculous to me.

TexasCaesar
02-19-2015, 10:32 PM
It seems to me that if you're going to make a work of art (movie, game, doesn't matter) set in a foreign land, you have three options: no accents (boo), accents (yes), or in that country's language (lol no). I understand why some people prefer for there not to be accents, but I feel that it's every bit as important to the setting as the architecture of the buildings or the types of clothing. Accents are all about getting the sound of an area right without forcing the viewer/player to read subtitles.

So, for that reason, I very much prefer having accents. It helps reinforce the feeling of being in Italy, being in Cuba, being in France. Yet, that power is what causes the English accents to be so negative of a feature. As an American, I don't hear English as a "neutral" voice, and when you combine English accents with a French setting, I either feel like I'm in England (not good) or a fantasy land (just as bad). Same deal with Ancient Romans; Hollywood loves to give Romans English accents, when an Italian accent would be the most plausible.

Furthermore, a French company like Ubisoft should have little trouble finding accurate French voice actors. Unity does try to convey the social classes of France through the accents of character, but it's even more jarring when the Quebecois character (Pierre Bellec) sounds Scottish, Jacobins all talk like cockneys, and Mirabeau has the voice of an English gentleman. Then, every once in a while, I'll hear a character speak in French AND cockeny in the same breath!

I'm a little burnt out on hearing British accents.

Sabutto
02-19-2015, 10:33 PM
Boring.

Would have rather heard from some1 who had some creative control on the overall plot of unity or past games.
Like Corey/Darbey/yohalem etc But i guess you get who you can get.

SixKeys
02-19-2015, 11:00 PM
Back on topic: I'm finally listening to the podcast and I'm so glad they bring up all the 'meta' moments in the game, like Arno saying "um, I think Bellec just gave me this cafÚ". There's a lot of that kind of stuff in the game and I love it. I believe at one point when you're introduced to the cafÚ economy system, Arno again quips something like "let me guess: if I do all these quests for you, you'll give me money, got it". Arno's no-nonsense attitude towards the poncy, dramatic conventions of the French assassins is a big reason why I love him.

JustPlainQuirky
02-20-2015, 02:45 AM
I think the accents debate is REALLY stupid.

We shouldn't be fighting over whether AC should have accurate unfitting accents or inaccurate fitting accents.

We should be pushing for accurate fitting quality accents. No need to fight over the lesser sucky situation. Both situations suck.

Demand quality, damn it. And we will see results.

And don't pull the stupid "Ubisoft won't do it" argument. Ubisoft is at an all time low and is open to change (and already has been showing signs of changing their methods). And having the "they wont do it even if we demand it" mentality is literally the biggest hindrance holding potential for change back.

DemonLord4lf
02-20-2015, 02:47 AM
I think the accents debate is REALLY stupid.

We shouldn't be fighting over whether AC should have accurate unfitting accents or inaccurate fitting accents.

We should be pushing for accurate fitting quality accents. No need to fight over the lesser sucky situation. Both situations suck.

Demand quality, damn it. And we will see results.

And don't pull the stupid "Ubisoft won't do it" argument. Ubisoft is at an all time low and is open to change (and already has been showing signs of changing their methods). And having the "they wont do it even if we demand it" mentality is literally the biggest hindrance holding chances back.

Usually i would say you're thinking to highly of Ubisoft, but I did notice that they took notice to the idea of making the intro level of Unity into a DLC.

Edit: Here's the link (http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1010755-Assassin-s-Creed-Unity-DLC)

JustPlainQuirky
02-20-2015, 02:54 AM
Usually i would say you're thinking to highly of Ubisoft, but I did notice that they took notice to the idea of making the intro level of Unity into a DLC.

Edit: Here's the link (http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1010755-Assassin-s-Creed-Unity-DLC)

Ew no.

No no no.

No no no no no.

Do not want.

No.

No.

No.

Shahkulu101
02-20-2015, 03:03 AM
Ew no.

No no no.

No no no no no.

Do not want.

No.

No.

No.

Why not? Sounds awesome.

I thought you liked that level.

JustPlainQuirky
02-20-2015, 03:05 AM
Why not? Sounds awesome.

I thought you liked that level.

I did like it as a one time segment filled with lore and gameplay but Thomas does not come off as interesting to me. It was the templar we played as who was interesting.

And I hate Thomas' embarassing altair paint bucket black outfit.

lazy lazy lazy

I don't care if there's an explanation that makes it possibly historically accurate. it's just a recolored altair outfit and i hate it

and the outfit is really important for presenting a unique AC character

just makes me so grumpy. did the concept artists even try?

DemonLord4lf
02-20-2015, 03:06 AM
Why not? Sounds awesome.

I thought you liked that level.

She doesn't like it because it might actually happen now. :p

Shahkulu101
02-20-2015, 03:10 AM
I did like it as a one time segment filled with lore and gameplay but Thomas does not come off as interesting to me. It was the templar we played as who was interesting.

And I hate Thomas' embarassing altair paint bucket black outfit.

lazy lazy lazy

I don't care if there's an explanation that makes it possibly historically accurate. it's just a recolored altair outfit and i hate it

and the outfit is really important for presenting a unique AC character

just makes me so grumpy. did the concept artists even try?

Obviously you didn't find Thomas interesting, he didn't speak.

The outfit is in honour of Altair, they aren't trying to pass it off as an altogether new outfit. I think it's a great homage and looks awesome.

I'd love a game in Medieval France to be honest, but since we've just been to France I'd accept a DLC.

JustPlainQuirky
02-20-2015, 03:17 AM
Obviously you didn't find Thomas interesting, he didn't speak.

The outfit is in honour of Altair, they aren't trying to pass it off as an altogether new outfit. I think it's a great homage and looks awesome.

I'd love a game in Medieval France to be honest, but since we've just been to France I'd accept a DLC.

I was just extremely annoyed it was one of Arno's outfits when it's literally just a black altair outfit.

I might be a liiiiittle more open to it if they at least changed his outfit but then it would be a retcon so....

No.

Do not want.

it comes off as incredibly lazy from a development standpoint

Also not interested in medieval france in the slightest. got enough daily dose of france lore.

DemonLord4lf
02-20-2015, 03:22 AM
I was just extremely annoyed it was one of Arno's outfits when it's literally just a black altair outfit.

I might be a liiiiittle more open to it if they at least changed his outfit but then it would be a retcon so....

No.

Do not want.

it comes off as incredibly lazy from a development standpoint

Also not interested in medieval france in the slightest. got enough daily dose of france lore.

I gave you guys the link to the thread >.> you could just complain against it there... Just saying...

JustPlainQuirky
02-20-2015, 03:25 AM
I gave you guys the link to the thread >.> you could just complain against it there... Just saying...

I did both because I'm indecisive as hell

DemonLord4lf
02-20-2015, 03:28 AM
I did both because I'm indecisive as hell

Thats ok. I think this will explain everything.

http://meme-lol.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/LOL-Pics-2014-Women-Logic.jpg

VestigialLlama4
02-20-2015, 05:29 AM
That┤s an "small error" yet the "cockney speaking" NPC┤s in Unity are the worst offense ever,

Yes, because in AC1 they were actually making an effort, however small and limited it is, to portray another culture from an internal perspective. UNITY simply decided to not come up with any solutions to the problem and instead used the excuse of stupidity without any consistency whatsover. If they had used full American accents then I can accept that UNITY is a mindless game without soul and ambition (which it is) more readily and I would respect that far more than I do a pretentious game that is too impressed by its stupidity.


Arno's no-nonsense attitude towards the poncy, dramatic conventions of the French assassins is a big reason why I love him.

That is nothing more than a copy of Edward Kenway making fun of the Assassins as cult as a "cheery bunch of Bravos" in AC4. The difference, Edward is funnier, his jokes come from a valid view-point whereas Arno is nothing more than a pampered toff. If he had joined Bellec and purged the Assassins, I'd take those early jokes as more in keeping with his character.

Farlander1991
02-20-2015, 06:11 AM
How is that inappropriate? If Connor spoke in a "Me Connor. Where Charles Lee" way or constantly kept invoking the Peace Pipe and the Great Spirit, you think that would be appropriate? Like in BLACK FLAG, Darby McDevitt made the joke of Olivier Garneau stating that he wanted to change Edward Kenway's peasant accent to an aristocratic posh accent like James Bond. The accents were a big part of the world they were in and the class they were in. Connor is a Native American outsider who speaks English in a second language, Edward is an upjumped peasant (Julien du Casse calls him "Filthy peasant" and Woodes Rogers stating that Kenway's parents are "motley") turned Pirate.

The fact is because its an Anglophone setting, it allows them to go into details about class and manner of speech with better accuracy since English is the international language and its speakers are the main audience of the games. And those games because they had better writers made points about class and society in that manner. To simply say that its "inappropriate" does little credit to the hard work and imagination put into those games.


That's like missing the whole point of what I said (somehow agreeing with it a paragraph later, though? O_o ).

It's inappropriate because in AC3 and AC4 there's no translation, so to speak. English is point zero of the narrative. If the person speaks it as the second language, he sounds as speaking as the second language cause that's what it is, if the person speaks in his native tongue, he speaks in his native tongue in whatever accent of his native tongue there is. Therefore the whole thing with accents is straightforward. We need a Welsh English accent? There's a Welsh English accent. We need a foreigner French to speak in English? That foreigner speaks in an accent.

In other games there IS translation, because the 'point zero' language is different. They all speak their native tongues which THEN get translated to English. Tuscan Italian or Corsican Italian, for example, are not that straightforward to show, because there is no such thing in English. It's like the translated versions of AC3/AC4, where Edward's Welsh accent is lost simply due to it not existing in that language he would speak in translation. Case in point, an AC4 walkthrough in Russian, watch some cutscenes:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bxKWieOMic

This is essentially what translators have to deal with. There's a guy with an English Welsh accent, and they can't actually show him with such accent in the game because there's no such accent in this case in Russian. And even though the whole game is in Russian, everything that's Russian is kinda supposed to be English... but it's Russian. Just like in other games everything that's English is supposed to be Arabic/Italian/French, a problem that English versions of AC3 and AC4 DON'T face cause there's no need to translate anything.

There's also a question of (to which, once again, there is no right answer), 'If a person is native speaker then he doesn't speak his language with a foreign accent', and how do you show that? All these reasons are why there is no one right answer to how to portray accents in AC1/AC2/ACU and why they shouldn't be compared to AC3/AC4.

loomer979
02-20-2015, 08:02 AM
Great podcast, Loomer, as always. Don't really agree that one fake accent is more historically accurate than the other. They spoke French. They didn't speak English with an accent. Accuracy dictates strictly French. I don't think accents belong in an argument about historical accuracy

I totally agree that a French accent isn't necessarily more historically accurate than a British one, but my issues with Unity's accents aren't really regarding that. It's really about two things for me:

1. I feel like the AC games are at their best when they create really immersive experiences. Characters that you care about and understand in painstakingly recreated historical environments... when it all comes together it's really amazing. British accents on French characters completely broke the immersion for me... my brain just couldn't stop trying to reconcile the fact that these are supposed to be French characters but they speak like British tourists. And I say tourists because the crowd NPCs and others speak in French, not British English so it makes the main characters feel really out of place like outsiders. The reason I would prefer a French accent is because it feels consistent with who the characters are supposed to be... Arno is French and historically spoke French, but if Arno ever had to speak English (as a second language) to anyone it would have been with a French accent, not a British one. It helps me feel like these characters are who the game tells me they are (that is, people who were born and raised in France) and thus doesn't break the immersion for me like the British accents actively did.

2. It's just really inconsistent with other games in the series and that alone drives me a little crazy. This isn't nearly as important as the immersion-breaking aspect for me though.


Damn Loomer really burned Ubi about the Connor treatment among other things!

Well done for speaking your mind mate, mad respect. :cool:

Haha! Luckily Gabe and Andie know me well enough to know where I'm coming from and take things like the Animus joke in good humor :).

Also, thanks for the positive feedback everyone!

Perk89
02-20-2015, 08:28 AM
These are really exceptional videos and I always get tickled hearing the protagonists voice seep through when their VAs are talking.


After you guys do your interview with me, I'd love to hear a Shaun Hastings interview.

DemonLord4lf
02-20-2015, 08:38 AM
I totally agree that a French accent isn't necessarily more historically accurate than a British one, but my issues with Unity's accents aren't really regarding that. It's really about two things for me:

1. I feel like the AC games are at their best when they create really immersive experiences. Characters that you care about and understand in painstakingly recreated historical environments... when it all comes together it's really amazing. British accents on French characters completely broke the immersion for me... my brain just couldn't stop trying to reconcile the fact that these are supposed to be French characters but they speak like British tourists. And I say tourists because the crowd NPCs and others speak in French, not British English so it makes the main characters feel really out of place like outsiders. The reason I would prefer a French accent is because it feels consistent with who the characters are supposed to be... Arno is French and historically spoke French, but if Arno ever had to speak English (as a second language) to anyone it would have been with a French accent, not a British one. It helps me feel like these characters are who the game tells me they are (that is, people who were born and raised in France) and thus doesn't break the immersion for me like the British accents actively did.

2. It's just really inconsistent with other games in the series and that alone drives me a little crazy. This isn't nearly as important as the immersion-breaking aspect for me though.



Haha! Luckily Gabe and Andie know me well enough to know where I'm coming from and take things like the Animus joke in good humor :).

Also, thanks for the positive feedback everyone!

Quick question for ya loomer. Any chance of getting any video of you asking the questions or is it always going to be audio only? Just curious, I don't care either way really.

SixKeys
02-20-2015, 12:53 PM
That is nothing more than a copy of Edward Kenway making fun of the Assassins as cult as a "cheery bunch of Bravos" in AC4. The difference, Edward is funnier

That's subjective. Edward is a good character, but I personally connect more with Arno's sense of humor. Arno is a lot more sarcastic, his quips are sort of subtle whereas Edward's approach was much mroe aggressive and direct. Arno could call you an idiot, but he'd do it in a way that it almost sounded like a compliment, until a few seconds later you realized what he was actually implying. Edward would just straight up say "you're an idiot".

The other difference is that the assassins in ACU were really high on themselves. Edward maknig fun of the assassins in AC4 just came off as him being a jerk, since the brotherhood was basically just a small, but tightly-knit group of people living off the land. Edward the pirate marched in there, caused a bunch of them to be killed and then insulted them all to boot. The assassins in Unity present themselves as better than everyone else, so they could use the occasional jab that takes them down a peg.


That's like missing the whole point of what I said (somehow agreeing with it a paragraph later, though? O_o ).

It's inappropriate because in AC3 and AC4 there's no translation, so to speak. English is point zero of the narrative. If the person speaks it as the second language, he sounds as speaking as the second language cause that's what it is, if the person speaks in his native tongue, he speaks in his native tongue in whatever accent of his native tongue there is. Therefore the whole thing with accents is straightforward. We need a Welsh English accent? There's a Welsh English accent. We need a foreigner French to speak in English? That foreigner speaks in an accent.

In other games there IS translation, because the 'point zero' language is different. They all speak their native tongues which THEN get translated to English. Tuscan Italian or Corsican Italian, for example, are not that straightforward to show, because there is no such thing in English. It's like the translated versions of AC3/AC4, where Edward's Welsh accent is lost simply due to it not existing in that language he would speak in translation. Case in point, an AC4 walkthrough in Russian, watch some cutscenes:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bxKWieOMic

This is essentially what translators have to deal with. There's a guy with an English Welsh accent, and they can't actually show him with such accent in the game because there's no such accent in this case in Russian. And even though the whole game is in Russian, everything that's Russian is kinda supposed to be English... but it's Russian. Just like in other games everything that's English is supposed to be Arabic/Italian/French, a problem that English versions of AC3 and AC4 DON'T face cause there's no need to translate anything.

There's also a question of (to which, once again, there is no right answer), 'If a person is native speaker then he doesn't speak his language with a foreign accent', and how do you show that? All these reasons are why there is no one right answer to how to portray accents in AC1/AC2/ACU and why they shouldn't be compared to AC3/AC4.


YES, this, this, THIS!! It frustrates me that this seems like an impenetrable concept to so many people. When the games are dubbed in Japanese, for example, they can't give the characters "foreign" accents at all because that would make the Japanese unintelligible. They just don't have the concept of "Japanese that sounds like Italian", for example. So in the Japanese dub of AC2, Ezio just sounds like a normal Japanese person. Guess what? Japanese players still have no problem understanding that the game takes place in Italy and that the characters are supposed to be Italian.

VestigialLlama4
02-20-2015, 03:57 PM
YES, this, this, THIS!! It frustrates me that this seems like an impenetrable concept to so many people. When the games are dubbed in Japanese, for example, they can't give the characters "foreign" accents at all because that would make the Japanese unintelligible. They just don't have the concept of "Japanese that sounds like Italian", for example. So in the Japanese dub of AC2, Ezio just sounds like a normal Japanese person. Guess what? Japanese players still have no problem understanding that the game takes place in Italy and that the characters are supposed to be Italian.

You and Farlander are splitting hairs within hairs to get away from the real issue of the terrible English accents in Unity and why it doesn't fit in the game. Japanese is not the international language, English is, I am not saying that out of any cultural pride but stating a basic fact. The Japanese dub is obviously there for local users and it wasn't the VO (Original Version) of the game. You cannot compare a local dub to a VO.

I still like the solution in the Ezio games, intersperse Italian phrases with English and the same they followed in Revelations (Turkish and Greek phrases with English). The French accented characters in the earlier games - Robert de Sable, Richard the Lionheart (who spent most of his life in the Angevin provinces of France and English was his second language), Octavien de Valois, Marquis de LaFayette, Julien du Casse - were far more convincing and better voiced than any of the BBC rejects in UNITY. My problem with the accents in UNITY is that its stupid, solely for its phony British affectations. If they wanted it to be a full translation via Animus, I would have preferred they use American accents fully.

SixKeys
02-20-2015, 04:27 PM
You and Farlander are splitting hairs within hairs to get away from the real issue of the terrible English accents in Unity and why it doesn't fit in the game.

So what's your excuse for Ezio's terrible Italian and ACR Alta´r's terrible Arabic? Why is it okay to butcher every other language on earth except English?

Fatal-Feit
02-20-2015, 04:55 PM
I was just extremely annoyed it was one of Arno's outfits when it's literally just a black altair outfit.

I might be a liiiiittle more open to it if they at least changed his outfit but then it would be a retcon so....

No.

Do not want.

it comes off as incredibly lazy from a development standpoint

Also not interested in medieval france in the slightest. got enough daily dose of france lore.

Incredibly lazy? They remodeled all of the Legacy Outfits, with new physics, and has the most non past-lineage Legacies. It's a homage to the first game, take it easy.

And I don't know if you've noticed, but besides the color, it has subtle differences such as the metal between the straps on the left shoulder and a different belt on the torso. =p

Really, there's no reason to call them lazy. It was a creative decision. If you don't like it, you don't like it. No reason to call them lazy.

aL_____eX
02-20-2015, 05:04 PM
Another possible excuse/explanation could be that the Assassin order was still in its infancy at the time of Thomas de Carneillon. So you can't expect much diversity in the appearance of the different brotherhoods.

SixKeys
02-20-2015, 05:59 PM
Another possible excuse/explanation could be that the Assassin order was still in its infancy at the time of Thomas de Carneillon. So you can't expect much diversity in the appearance of the different brotherhoods.

Exactly. I saw the outfit as a homage to the origins of the brotherhood and it was probably the closest thing they had to an official uniform at the time.

Namikaze_17
02-20-2015, 06:07 PM
Another possible excuse/explanation could be that the Assassin order was still in its infancy at the time of Thomas de Carneillon. So you can't expect much diversity in the appearance of the different brotherhoods.

This actually makes sense.

Megas_Doux
02-20-2015, 06:08 PM
Those five minutes of Unity┤s prologue are the ones I┤ve enjoyed THE MOST so far in the franchise! The setting, atmosphere, music, events. In fact I think not Including some throwback/easter eggs including Domenico Auditore and Dante Alighieri, both stated as friends of Thomas, was a HUGE wasted opportunity.

Would you imagine including, even in a linear fashion, an infiltration mission to the castle that begins in the outskirts of 14th century Paris, first at horse then by foot through the city in which the assassins are portrayed as the bad guys???????

I would KILL for game like that....

loomer979
02-20-2015, 08:47 PM
Quick question for ya loomer. Any chance of getting any video of you asking the questions or is it always going to be audio only? Just curious, I don't care either way really.

Maybe someday but not anytime soon. There's actually a ton of subtle editing that I do on the podcast that becomes much harder to do if video is involved so that's probably the biggest blocker.

Perk89
02-20-2015, 08:53 PM
I thought it was kind of a given that the outfit looked similar because it was in the same era.


didnt know that anyone felt any differently.

JustPlainQuirky
02-20-2015, 09:21 PM
Well we won't know if it was a matter of saving time/money or not until we ask I suppose.

But the design itself is just too unoriginal to the point it lacks identity IMO

But it's nothing I'll lose sleep over

aL_____eX
02-20-2015, 09:25 PM
Well we won't know if it was a matter of saving time/money or not until we ask I suppose.

But the design itself is just too unoriginal to the point it lacks identity IMO

But it's nothing I'll lose sleep over
Hmm... I believe the Assassin order was a whole different thing in the Middle Ages, so the different brotherhoods most likely had no own identity at that time.

JustPlainQuirky
02-20-2015, 09:29 PM
Hmm... I believe the Assassin order was a whole different thing in the Middle Ages, so the different brotherhoods most likely had no own identity at that time.

I'm thinking from a character design standpoint and not a logic standpoint.

unfair to prioritize character design over historical accuracy but hm.

i dont want to play as generic looking assassin.

stupid reason I know but...hmm...

i see costumes as a way as identifying characters. and while not all assassins look different, they looked considerably different from other protagonists, and i'd like that tradition to continue.

but like I said I'm being picky at this point

aL_____eX
02-20-2015, 09:31 PM
I'm thinking from a character design standpoint and not a logic standpoint.

unfair to prioritize character design over historical accuracy but hm.

i dont want to play as generic looking assassin.

stupid reason I know but...hmm...

i see costumes as a way as identifying characters. and while not all assassins look different, they looked considerably different from other protagonists, and i'd like that tradition to continue.

but like I said I'm being picky at this point
Na, I totally support your point there. The protagonists have this special look in every game, and most of the time they look really badass, but on the other hand that's totally against any stealth rules. :p

Farlander1991
02-20-2015, 09:47 PM
You and Farlander are splitting hairs within hairs to get away from the real issue of the terrible English accents in Unity and why it doesn't fit in the game.

I'm not splitting anything. In fact, outside of a little part of one of my post where I just stated my stance/opinion (without actually trying to argue for it, it was just voicing), I'm not argumenting for or against Unity's voice acting in any way in my further posts. What I'm saying is, the way research and choice of accents is done in AC1/AC2/ACU is different from AC3/AC4, which is why AC1/AC2/ACU shouldn't be compared to AC3/AC4 (but rather the games in a particular group between each other), which is something you failed so far to counter-argument, or provide a reasoning how the two groups follow the same voice acting principles. You pretty much only provided reasons ho wAC3/AC4 are good at what they were doing, which wasn't something in question.

I provided reasons how they don't and can't follow same principles due to the fact that in AC1/AC2/ACU main and perceived tongues are different, while in the AC3/AC4 they are the same, and that's a HUGE difference when it comes to the whole voicing process. And while we're at it, your arguments when comparing ACU to AC1/AC2 can be pretty much summed up with 'I like AC1/AC2 way better', which is all fine and I have nothing against that, but that's the extent of it. And not to mention, you've failed to address the translation analogy. Instead of trying to counter the point of the analogy, i.e. that original versions of AC1/AC2/ACU can be considered similar to translated games (once again, due to the difference between main and perceived tongues), you address that the actual Japanese version trying to state how it's 'not the original version' and 'for a local audience only'. Yeah, no, that's not a counter-argument.

Mr.Black24
02-21-2015, 12:29 AM
Another possible excuse/explanation could be that the Assassin order was still in its infancy at the time of Thomas de Carneillon. So you can't expect much diversity in the appearance of the different brotherhoods.
Actually that is true. After all Atair had just sent out the Assassins outside Syria and Persia just a few decades ago. I mean Darim traveled up to Europe to warn about the Mongols, so he could have helped started both French and English Brotherhoods? Plus that outfit was standard Master Assassin Uniform at the time, so I don't see that very irritating.

What was irritating that it was just that, a simple outfit! There were no perks to it or nothing. They kept emphasizing that it was the great "Armor of Thomas de Carneillon" and yet it didn't do a damm thing other than just look good. I mean why go through all those awesome yet headsplitting riddles, just to get a skin?

And please don't tell me to simply wear armor underneath the outfit since that precisely ruins the whole point of getting the "Armor of Thomas de Carneillon" Its supposed to be prestigious awesome 500 year old armor right? Ubi Plz...

DemonLord4lf
02-22-2015, 08:52 PM
Maybe someday but not anytime soon. There's actually a ton of subtle editing that I do on the podcast that becomes much harder to do if video is involved so that's probably the biggest blocker.

Ok, thanks for answering my question :)