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JustPlainQuirky
02-12-2015, 10:37 PM
This is somewhat old news but in the Ubisoft survey I did many months ago regarding Unity, a suggestion was brought up by Ubi regarding dual protagonists. My memory is a bit foggy, but it was along the lines of "would you like the idea of choosing between a male and female protagonist?"

This idea is most likely to reconcile with the complaints of not enough female representation in AC (something I personally find valueless, but that's besides the point).

I do have a major problem with this decision, however, were it to be implemented in a future AC title.

That reason is character development.

Obviously these characters would be two separate ones and not a single customizable one as that would contradict the science of the animus/helix...so with that in mind...

Unity's story is relatively short. Not as short as Rogue's, per se, but enough for people to complain that some characters (including the protagonist Arno) did not have enough time to flesh out their characters. And this is especially concerning considering the fact there were only 3 really notable major characters in Unity to focus on (Arno, Elise, Pierre). Also the fact that Arno is most likely not getting a sequel (given his reception, victory leaks, and feudal japan theory) pretty much confirms the fact his character wont be expanded on (At least in terms of the video game medium).

So in short, Unity's length was arguably not enough to flesh out characters. At least in terms of it's execution.

Rogue was more successful despite being short but keep in mind most of the other characters are pre-established (i.e. Haytham, Adewale, Achilles) and don't require much explanation.

That being said, having two protagonists (regardless of the gender) may be harmful to the narrative and the individual characters. This is assuming the future installments retain the same story length as Unity. If the length is doubled, then perhaps it could work out. But this is Ubisoft we're talking about and making space/time for more development is not one of their specialties.

So assuming Ubisoft decides to implement this split protagonist function, would you be on board with it or do you share any concerns?

I think it miiiight work given proper execution but TBH I feel chances are unlikely given Ubi's track record.

Post your thoughts below.

Megas_Doux
02-12-2015, 10:40 PM
With the current model of annualization, is hard enough for Ubi no manage one protagonist, let alone two.......

aL_____eX
02-12-2015, 10:40 PM
Doesn't makes sense with the current concept of AC because we're experiencing memories of ancestors and we are not the ones to choose their genders.

JustPlainQuirky
02-12-2015, 10:41 PM
Doesn't makes sense with the current concept of AC because we're experiencing memories of ancestors and we are not the ones to choose their genders.

I think it will work like this:

Abstergo has 2 helix databases. 1 with a female in a specific time period and 1 with a male in that very same time period. You can choose to relive either memories. But they are not your ancestor nor are they related to each other.

But this would require split narratives. Having only the gender change but the events be the same would simply not make sense in an AC game nor would it be accepted.

And given how thin the narrative is already, this may be cause for concern.

aL_____eX
02-12-2015, 10:42 PM
I think it will work like this:

Abstergo has 2 helix databases. 1 with a female in a specific time period and 1 with a male in that very same time period. You can choose to relive either memories. But they are not your ancestor nor are they related to each other.

But this would require split narratives. Having only the gender change but the events be the same would simply not make sense in an AC game nor would it be accepted.

And given how thin the narrative is already, this may be cause for concern.
Yeah, I forgot that there's always one excuse called Animus.

DemonLord4lf
02-12-2015, 10:49 PM
I think it will work like this:

Abstergo has 2 helix databases. 1 with a female in a specific time period and 1 with a male in that very same time period. You can choose to relive either memories. But they are not your ancestor nor are they related to each other.

But this would require split narratives. Having only the gender change but the events be the same would simply not make sense in an AC game nor would it be accepted.

And given how thin the narrative is already, this may be cause for concern.

Or the ancestor could be twins >.> one male the other female.

The_Kiwi_
02-12-2015, 10:49 PM
Just keep the protag as a white male
That way everyone is happy and the animus isn't contradicted

aL_____eX
02-12-2015, 10:50 PM
Just keep the protag as a white male
That way everyone is happy and the animus isn't contradicted
Ehmm...

The_Kiwi_
02-12-2015, 10:51 PM
Or the ancestor could be twins >.> one male the other female.

It couldn't work like that...


Ehmm...

:rolleyes:

JustPlainQuirky
02-12-2015, 10:51 PM
Just keep the protag as a white male
That way everyone is happy and the animus isn't contradicted

http://www.myfacewhen.net/uploads/4664-ooooh.gif

Altair1789
02-12-2015, 10:56 PM
It couldn't work like that...



:rolleyes:

Unless...

( ͡ ͜ʖ ͡)

JustPlainQuirky
02-12-2015, 10:58 PM
Unless...

( ͡ ͜ʖ ͡)

was thinking the same thing omfg.

The_Kiwi_
02-12-2015, 10:58 PM
Unless...

( ͡ ͜ʖ ͡)

Cersei and Jaime
#confirmed

aL_____eX
02-12-2015, 11:03 PM
Cersei and Jaime
#confirmed
Is this real?

The_Kiwi_
02-12-2015, 11:21 PM
Is this real?

Would you prefer Cesare and Lucrezia #confirmed? :rolleyes:

ze_topazio
02-13-2015, 12:05 AM
A good story doesn't need to last a million hours.

DemonLord4lf
02-13-2015, 12:08 AM
A good story doesn't need to last a million hours.

But it should last more than 20 >.>

JustPlainQuirky
02-13-2015, 12:09 AM
A good story doesn't need to last a million hours.

That isn't the issue being brought up.

I agree that given the right execution, a short story could very well work out.

Example being: Brothers a Tale of Two Sons and Transistor

I'm just saying Unity was kind of iffy when it came to just 1 protagonists development. So having two with the same small timeslot might be a bit damaging to their characters in the sense they don't have time to flourish.

historagamer24
02-13-2015, 02:22 AM
Maybe if UBI did what Grand Theft Auto V did with it's 3 protagonists it could work....

The_Kiwi_
02-13-2015, 02:24 AM
Maybe if UBI did what Grand Theft Auto V did with it's 3 protagonists it could work....

No it couldn't
The animus cant have three non ancestors at once

DemonLord4lf
02-13-2015, 02:33 AM
No it couldn't
The animus cant have three non ancestors at once

You seem to be in the past, oh man from the future.

The animus isn't being used anymore. Its the Helix system now. So having 3 different characters can work. If we were going back to the Animus, no it wouldn't work. However, as I stated, we are using the Helix system now, which doesn't require a direct descendant for there to be a link.

aL_____eX
02-13-2015, 02:36 AM
There are so many reasons why multiple protagonists would be the worst thing to actually happen.

DemonLord4lf
02-13-2015, 02:38 AM
There are so many reasons why multiple protagonists would be the worst thing to actually happen.

Love your sig....


:: drools over Elise ::


ahem... sorry got distracted...

Anyways, with the way things are, I agree. Ubisoft would never be able to pull it off. However, if they were to stop trying to release these games year after year, they could probably do something to that extent.

The_Kiwi_
02-13-2015, 02:52 AM
You seem to be in the past, oh man from the future.

The animus isn't being used anymore. Its the Helix system now. So having 3 different characters can work. If we were going back to the Animus, no it wouldn't work. However, as I stated, we are using the Helix system now, which doesn't require a direct descendant for there to be a link.

That doesn't matter
Both the helix and animus can't do multiple ancestors at once
So my point still stands
And no where is it stated that all games from now on will use the helix not the Animus

JustPlainQuirky
02-13-2015, 02:54 AM
the helix can't do multiple ancestors at once

you don't know that


And no where is it stated that all games from now on will use the helix not the Animus

People like Darby outright said we'd basically be using the helix from now on

DemonLord4lf
02-13-2015, 02:55 AM
That doesn't matter
Both the helix and animus can't do multiple ancestors at once
So my point still stands
And no where is it stated that all games from now on will use the helix not the Animus


People like Darby outright said we'd basically be using the helix from now on

It states so clearly in my head. :p That's also where Darby lives. :D

To be honest, i'm just going by the recent storyline that Ubisoft has used. Hopefully they'll go back to the Animus system so we can have a MD protagonist.

The_Kiwi_
02-13-2015, 03:05 AM
If Ubisoft suddenly says "oh yeah btw the helix can do multiple ancestors at once", I'll just lose all respect for them

They'd need a bloody fantastic explanation for me to accept it
I accept the Animus because of Vidic's explanation in AC1, about genetic memories being why birds know where to fly etc

Helix needs something like that or better

Altair1789
02-13-2015, 03:06 AM
I have an idea! How about they get rid of the entire surrogate animus stuff :/ We should go back to playing the descendant of the certain assassin


If Ubisoft suddenly says "oh yeah btw the helix can do multiple ancestors at once", I'll just lose all respect for them

They kinda did that with the surrogate system :( Ubi why

The_Kiwi_
02-13-2015, 03:10 AM
Darby isn't official canon :rolleyes:

VestigialLlama4
02-13-2015, 06:59 AM
That being said, having two protagonists (regardless of the gender) may be harmful to the narrative and the individual characters. This is assuming the future installments retain the same story length as Unity. If the length is doubled, then perhaps it could work out. But this is Ubisoft we're talking about and making space/time for more development is not one of their specialties.

So assuming Ubisoft decides to implement this split protagonist function, would you be on board with it or do you share any concerns?

I always felt that multiple protagonists is inherent in the logic of an open-world game and definitely in ASSASSIN'S CREED games.

The point is that Assassins are a Brotherhood, Altair's first game is about him working with his fellow Assassins and earning their respect. He wasn't a lone-wolf and indeed his attempt to be one led to him learning a lesson in humility.

In brotherhood, you had Ezio and the Brotherhood, a bunch of NPCs at your beck and command, so obviously it was not quite a single-player Lone-Wolf Assassin game at that time.

In AC3, you had two protagonists with completely opposite philosophies and differences in gameplay in how they interacted with the open world. I mean the problem with AC3's gump factor is that it shoehorns an Ezio-like single player story about meeting famous figures when having multiple Assassins, say a White Revolutionary and a Native American would have evened the verisimilitude with some events and famous figures met by one protagonist and another set by the other protagonist.

With UNITY, they had a perfect chance to implement multiple protagonists. Put Arno, Elise and Pierre Bellec, one Assassin, one Templar and a woman, and the third is obviously a Trevor like GTAV character who does all the open-world mayhem and the like that some fans wanted. You can have each of them represent different factions in the Revolution, show events and figures from different sides and provide unique side-missions and the like. They blew it.

As an open-world historical-adventure game, Assassin's Creed is bursting with potential to do things other games haven't even dreamed of touching, and instead they gave up their ambitions and make an Ezio clone instead

dimbismp
02-13-2015, 10:51 AM
As you mentioned previously, i would also like a GTA V type multiple protagonists.The ideal for me would be two friends,or maybe two strangers to avoid cliche story,who are an Assassin and a Templar.That way we could experience the same story from two different sides,which would be unique for the franchise.In the meanwhile,the story could turn out to be more realistic.What i mean is that in every game so far we see the assassin(or templar) slaughter dozens of templars(or assassins respectively) with little or no reaction from the other side.If we could use both an Assassin and a Templar,we would see a more balanced war etc.

As for the "animus/helix can only view one ancestor's memories at a time" argument:
1)We simply do not know exactly what animus can do
2)The first in-game Animus was used at 2012.Now the year is 2015.Technology advances rapidly.We now use the Helix.Maybe there is a way to merge two genomes and then view the two memories as one.
3)In conclusion,the Animus can do anything.It has been the way to explain many inconsistencies in the past.So why not now?

emperior
02-13-2015, 03:55 PM
Two protagonists. One is an Assassin, the other a Templar. We get to see both Orders' point of view. At the end of the game, the two fight each other, we choose who to keep in life.
In modern days, Abstergo finds both the DNA of the two, and decide to relive their memories to know what happened.
The game would be a spin-off, as both the protagonists should be minor characters for the series. In modern days, it's still a mystery which one died, or if they both lost their lives in that moment, Abstergo says the Templar won, while the Assassin say the opposite.
If you choose to keep the Templar alive, in the end it turns out you are an Abstergo employee, while if you keep the Assassin alive, you are an Initiate who has access to Abstergo memories thanks to hackers.
End game is basically an MMO. You choose to be the templar or the assassin and there is PvP and Co-op.


WOULD be cool IMO, but only as a spin-off/DLC, I don't know if it would work in a main game. I would accept dual protagonists only on Modern Days and with two ancestors that may or may not have ever encountered the other one. Obviously dual protagonists Templar/Assassin would be awesome but I prefer to have a 20 hours story about a single character than having 10 hours per character.

DumbGamerTag94
02-13-2015, 03:57 PM
There's not inherently a problem with more than one protagonist. LA Noire, most COD games, Batman Arkham City, GTA5 had three and pulled that off pretty well

ninja4hire10
02-13-2015, 04:17 PM
Not sure how it would fit into the Animus/ Helix tech on the story side of things, but how about instead of dual (or multiple) protagonists, the main character faces an in-game choice between siding with the Templar Order OR The Brotherhood, a choice that shapes the narrative as well as player experience? Kinda like...well, like Infamous's moral choices? Example: the main character's completely ignorant of the whole Assassin-Templar struggle. Major catalyst happens, the MC's clued in and has to choose which ideological path to take, a choice that'll shape his/her (our) experience? At the very least it could up the game's replay value just to see how the countering story played out...

wildp1tch
02-13-2015, 04:21 PM
As much as I'd love a multi protagonist Assassins Creed game. I don't trust UBI enough to wish for something like GTA V from them. GTA V has perfectly executed multi protagonist but it is from Rockstar and they know how to write a story and execute on it, as they have proven time and again. As sad as it sounds I'd rather not have UBI doing experiments.

dimbismp
02-13-2015, 04:24 PM
Not sure how it would fit into the Animus/ Helix tech on the story side of things, but how about instead of dual (or multiple) protagonists, the main character faces an in-game choice between siding with the Templar Order OR The Brotherhood, a choice that shapes the narrative as well as player experience? Kinda like...well, like Infamous's moral choices? Example: the main character's completely ignorant of the whole Assassin-Templar struggle. Major catalyst happens, the MC's clued in and has to choose which ideological path to take, a choice that'll shape his/her (our) experience? At the very least it could up the game's replay value just to see how the countering story played out...
Well in fact that's completely out of the Animus logic.We are reliving the past,we are not shaping it.

Fatal-Feit
02-13-2015, 04:32 PM
I'm all for it. Incorporating naval into the mix was something I could never have dreamed of but it worked well in Black Flag. Story-wise, having 2 separate protagonists is nothing new. AC3 dealt with 3. I'll be the optimistic one here and say Ubisoft could pull it off given the right team.

For those saying it's improbable due to ''not making sense'', this is AC we're talking about. They always have an explanation for the most ridiculous stuff. Before Unity was announced we all thought CO-OP could never be a thing because Animus limitations.

JustPlainQuirky
02-13-2015, 10:00 PM
Some good arguments on both sides.

Still not convinced Ubi could pull it off tho.

Would have to see it in action.

Hans684
02-13-2015, 10:50 PM
Some good arguments on both sides.

Still not convinced Ubi could pull it off tho.

Would have to see it in action.

Let's leave things like this to people like Naughty Dog or R*

DumbGamerTag94
02-13-2015, 11:19 PM
I think MD hurts the depth of story and ability to have more protags than one.

1: animus forces us to relive memories of 1 person.

2: story is *** because we have to also fit tons of MD developments and pull us out of the setting thus we get 2 very ****ty plot lines rather than 1 good one. Look at some very good period games that have IMO much better stories than almost all AC games....Red Dead(1911), Mafia 2(1950s), LA Noire (1940s). None of these have any meta sub plot and focus only on their period characters and some more than 1 protag. But their stories are soooooo much better and complete because you are not taken away from it to do some dumb pointless fetch quest in MD like exciting things such as going to bed(ac1), locking doors and windows(ac2), Mario platforming(ACR), really dumb linear sequences with painfully long cutscenes(AC3), hacking computers by playing frogger or boring puzzles that have nothing to do with the plot(ACRo+AC4), or linear sequences in settings irrelevant to the plot which divert game design resources(ACU)

3: MD does little more than provide mcguffins. Because they need to come up with some lame excuse to use the animus again to keep MD somewhat relevant. Which also has negative effects on the period story as well because the plot is automatically forced into 1 big fetch quest by default thanks to the MD animus. Leaving little to no room for story/plot variety. That's why all AC games can fit the same general plot description.

4: the division between MD and period writing/game design causes both A: cutting of both plots down to nonsensical stupidity in order to fit 2 storys in 1 game. And B: diverts design assets from period setting. So whole missions/plot progression opprotunities must be removed/half assed in order to cram 2 games/stories in one. So we can explore a warehouse or lab/bedroom.

In short MD is an obstacle to a good plot in AC. And it must go. If they want to continue making 2 games in one then they should just separate them and make two separate games. MD does more damage than good.

VestigialLlama4
02-14-2015, 05:01 AM
I think MD hurts the depth of story and ability to have more protags than one.

No it doesn't. With the technology of the Animus in Black Flag where everything is on the console, its simply a matter of switching DNA strands in the Menu. The scanner has the DNA sequenced. Just have a nameless researcher or whoever switch DNA from the Menu itself. The cool part of the Animus is that you can avoid the complicated switching animation in GTAV, where you had this Google Earth like thing drop you and then move to another corner of map. With animus, simply load someone else in the loading screen and presto. Its faster and smoother.

DemonLord4lf
02-14-2015, 05:09 AM
I love how everyone jumped to conclusions about my post concerning twins. I was going by the idea, that sometimes twins can feel what the other is doing or feeling. Thats what i was going for, but i was laughing too hard from what everyone was saying to say that.

DumbGamerTag94
02-14-2015, 05:16 AM
No it doesn't. With the technology of the Animus in Black Flag where everything is on the console, its simply a matter of switching DNA strands in the Menu. The scanner has the DNA sequenced. Just have a nameless researcher or whoever switch DNA from the Menu itself. The cool part of the Animus is that you can avoid the complicated switching animation in GTAV, where you had this Google Earth like thing drop you and then move to another corner of map. With animus, simply load someone else in the loading screen and presto. Its faster and smoother.

Idk that it'd necescarily be smoother or faster. Given the need for menus and loading screens. But it's a valid point. However I feel it'd make the characters feel disjointed. Lacking the smoother character transitions like that between John and Jack Marston in RDR, Batman and catwoman in Arkham city, or Cole Phelps and Jack(last name escapes me) in LA Noir. In those games the swaps made a lot of story sense and helped drive the narrative. There needs to be good reason for switching. Not just there as a neat feature. Even in GTAV the stories tied together and for certain missions u needed certain characters. I'd personally rather have the swap story specific rather than at will. With post game freedom to swap at will(unless one were to die).

But that aside it is a valid option.

However that still doesn't solve the inherent problems MD provides for the story and game production. Do you have any ideas about that???(I outlined the soecific problems in my last post)

VestigialLlama4
02-14-2015, 05:57 AM
However that still doesn't solve the inherent problems MD provides for the story and game production. Do you have any ideas about that???(I outlined the soecific problems in my last post)

To me the games are primarily a historical game and the Modern Day element is there to allow the series to shift to a new location and time period in a succeeding installment. That isn't to say I dislike MD, I like it actually, but generally I agree with Darby McDevitt that it should serve as background and context, and largely work as optional content. To me the Modern Day element is a fun extra and relief from the game's tensions. So for me I have no real complaints about how they have handled the MD plot each game, until ROGUE (where they rehashed Black Flag like a cannibalizing parasite).

I liked the MD element of Revelations the best, mostly because Subject 16 is my favorite MD character (and a superior Database writer to Shaun) and the McGuffin there is simplest, find a way to get yourself out of a coma. Those First-Person platform levels of Desmond did more to give a sense of the character than the earlier games did, and even made him likable. It also had this element of horror to it, that something is not right. That element of horror is the most important part of MD, each game should give you a sense of shock that you are coming face to face with thousands of years of history.

As for the overarching Modern Day plot, I think they should find a way to get rid of serial storytelling. That is having another disaster or threat after the next three games. They should resolve the Juno-Aita plot (though not by killing her, I like Juno) and then they should make smaller stories that generally take the conflict away from Assassins-Templars in the present day. I always thought it would be cool if one Assassin's famous descendant is say, a mental patient, or a drug addict or a slum kid, someone really on the margins and what the knowledge or awareness of that heritage would do to that kind of person.