PDA

View Full Version : *Spoilers* Is Shay an Fanatic Templar?



Mr.Black24
02-04-2015, 07:21 PM
I remember this time Mr.Shade!:D
************************************************** *
Remember when we last saw Shay assassinating Charles, and their dialogue went something like this:

http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20141118210859/assassinscreed/images/c/c9/Shayandcharles.PNG

Charles: "Connor and his Assassins... The American Revolution undid your Templar business."
Shay: "Than perhaps we should start a Revolution of our own...."

And remember, it was the Revolution itself was started by François-Thomas Germain in a coup against François de la Serre for the role of Grand Master of the Templars. The goal behind beginning the revolution was not only to remove the truce between Assassins and Templars, believing that its not only impossible, but down right blasphemy, and to bring in a new middle-class leadership to the Templars instead of the previous aristocratic leaders, and to show humanity the horrors of unrestrained free will so that they would prefer control above all else. The Templar Civil war was the fanatics vs the conservatives.

Plus his ending dialogue also supports my theory as well: "Uphold the principle of our Order and all for which we stand. Never share our secrets and divulge in the true nature of our work. Do so until death-whatever the costs. This is my new creed"- Shay Patrick Cormac of the American Rite

By these words, it looks pretty solid to me that he not only supported this coup, but perhaps he'd gone deep into Templar ideology? People mentioned that Shay and Connor are both level headed and good to the people, that perhaps they would even try to break a truce too for the sake of everyone. But now, I don't think that's a possibility anymore.
If anything, now I really want to know how Shay influenced the United States, which would eventually lead to the battle between Connor and *Arno* vs Shay.

*Arno*: I feel sure that Connor would contact Arno in tracking down Shay. Being that both Connor and Arno are well known participates in their respective revolutions, I think its very likely that they both became aware of each other in sometime, thus leading Connor to ask for Arno in hunting down Shay?

A new redemption quest perhaps? Is Shay a true fanatic now? How did he shape the United States? How will this go down? What do you think of all this?:confused:

DemonLord4lf
02-04-2015, 08:16 PM
I remember this time Mr.Shade!:D
************************************************** *
Remember when we last saw Shay assassinating Charles, and their dialogue went something like this:

http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20141118210859/assassinscreed/images/c/c9/Shayandcharles.PNG

Charles: "Connor and his Assassins... The American Revolution undid your Templar business."
Shay: "Than perhaps we should start a Revolution of our own...."

And remember, it was the Revolution itself was started by François-Thomas Germain in a coup against François de la Serre for the role of Grand Master of the Templars. The goal behind beginning the revolution was not only to remove the truce between Assassins and Templars, believing that its not only impossible, but down right blasphemy, and to bring in a new middle-class leadership to the Templars instead of the previous aristocratic leaders, and to show humanity the horrors of unrestrained free will so that they would prefer control above all else. The Templar Civil war was the fanatics vs the conservatives.

Plus his ending dialogue also supports my theory as well: "Uphold the principle of our Order and all for which we stand. Never share our secrets and divulge in the true nature of our work. Do so until death-whatever the costs. This is my new creed"- Shay Patrick Cormac of the American Rite

By these words, it looks pretty solid to me that he not only supported this coup, but perhaps he'd gone deep into Templar ideology? People mentioned that Shay and Connor are both level headed and good to the people, that perhaps they would even try to break a truce too for the sake of everyone. But now, I don't think that's a possibility anymore.
If anything, now I really want to know how Shay influenced the United States, which would eventually lead to the battle between Connor and *Arno* vs Shay.

*Arno*: I feel sure that Connor would contact Arno in tracking down Shay. Being that both Connor and Arno are well known participates in their respective revolutions, I think its very likely that they both became aware of each other in sometime, thus leading Connor to ask for Arno in hunting down Shay?

A new redemption quest perhaps? Is Shay a true fanatic now? How did he shape the United States? How will this go down? What do you think of all this?:confused:

He was a member of the forces for chaos >: D


i have no proof of this... its just makes sense :D

Hans684
02-04-2015, 08:26 PM
Remember when we last saw Shay assassinating Charles, and their dialogue went something like this:

http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20141118210859/assassinscreed/images/c/c9/Shayandcharles.PNG

Charles: "Connor and his Assassins... The American Revolution undid your Templar business."
Shay: "Than perhaps we should start a Revolution of our own...."

That can mean a lot, I doubt he even knew of the coup. If he did and supported it, then he would have been in Unity. It also goes against his character.


And remember, it was the Revolution itself was started by François-Thomas Germain in a coup against François de la Serre for the role of Grand Master of the Templars. The goal behind beginning the revolution was not only to remove the truce between Assassins and Templars, believing that its not only impossible, but down right blasphemy, and to bring in a new middle-class leadership to the Templars instead of the previous aristocratic leaders, and to show humanity the horrors of unrestrained free will so that they would prefer control above all else. The Templar Civil war was the fanatics vs the conservatives.

Chrétien Lafrenière, this guy had gathered other Templars from around the world against Germain's extremist/fanatic Templars. We only have confirmation that the British Templars of the time considered a truce blasphemy like Germain.


Plus his ending dialogue also supports my theory as well: "Uphold the principle of our Order and all for which we stand. Never share our secrets and divulge in the true nature of our work. Do so until death-whatever the costs. This is my new creed"- Shay Patrick Cormac of the American Rite

That's the Templar Oath that's said in every initiation, it only proves he's a Templar.


By these words, it looks pretty solid to me that he not only supported this coup, but perhaps he'd gone deep into Templar ideology? People mentioned that Shay and Connor are both level headed and good to the people, that perhaps they would even try to break a truce too for the sake of everyone. But now, I don't think that's a possibility anymore.
If anything, now I really want to know how Shay influenced the United States, which would eventually lead to the battle between Connor and *Arno* vs Shay.

And no, that isn't deep in the Templar ideology, Haytham is deep, Torres is deep, Ahmet is deep and Shay is deep. Shay and Connor is on the same level, they'd sacrifice themselves as long as it's benefits the people. A truce between them is possible, I don't see why they would fight.


*Arno*: I feel sure that Connor would contact Arno in tracking down Shay. Being that both Connor and Arno are well known participates in their respective revolutions, I think its very likely that they both became aware of each other in sometime, thus leading Connor to ask for Arno in hunting down Shay?

Arno isn't the revenge kind of guy anyway and Connor would try to make peace.


A new redemption quest perhaps? Is Shay a true fanatic now? How did he shape the United States? How will this go down? What do you think of all this?:confused:

Arno has Napoleon to deal with. Shay never was a frantic, it would be just as confusing to say the same about Connor. Spinning both characters upside down and destroying them. We could say Shay literally shaped US, imagine if Achilles fanatic order found a Fist Civ. temple in the US instead of the Arctic. It won't do down. What I think? I think this thread is funny, it's another ermagerd bad guy Shay that's out of his character.

Fatal-Feit
02-04-2015, 08:46 PM
That's an interesting theory, but I still don't believe it. Shay have been anything but throughout Rogue and changing at the end would be out of character.

Mr.Black24
02-04-2015, 09:30 PM
That's an interesting theory, but I still don't believe it. Shay have been anything but throughout Rogue and changing at the end would be out of character.
I thought so too, since its the reason why I brought this up. I mean it makes no sense, yet what I found lines up. I just wonder whats going to happen to him later on.

Mr.Black24
02-04-2015, 09:52 PM
That can mean a lot, I doubt he even knew of the coup. If he did and supported it, then he would have been in Unity. It also goes against his character.
Everyone had that problem with that tie-in in Unity. It was even discussed in the recent Assassin's Den podcast that it was poorly constructed, since what was the point in doing that if Shay never took in part with Unity. Just like them, I played Rogue first, expecting Shay to be the final man we had to take down, but thanks to poor writing, that never happened. Like complete buildup and it just fell.

Plus, what do you mean that he didn't know about the coup? I mean he said the words, "Than perhaps we should start a Revolution of our own"
How would this mean anything else? Especially since it was the Templars that started the French Revolution.



Chrétien Lafrenière, this guy had gathered other Templars from around the world against Germain's extremist/fanatic Templars. We only have confirmation that the British Templars of the time considered a truce blasphemy like Germain.
True, however there is no confirmation that Shay and the American Rite are against Germain's fraction either. Hence why I quoted his talk, it sounded like he was for it, hence this theory debate.



That's the Templar Oath that's said in every initiation, it only proves he's a Templar. Yes, but that tone of his made it so....dark. Which only raised my suspicion. After all, tone of voice can make a difference within a meaning of a speech.




And no, that isn't deep in the Templar ideology, Haytham is deep, Torres is deep, Ahmet is deep and Shay is deep. Shay and Connor is on the same level, they'd sacrifice themselves as long as it's benefits the people. A truce between them is possible, I don't see why they would fight.
It best mentioned by Shay's voice actor, and I agree with him on this, is that they do care for the people, its just that since they think differently on how to do, it is the major reason why they will fight in the first place. Plus, will Shay take kindly on Haytham's death? I mean he got hot blooded for the people that were killed in Lisbon, maybe it will be the same to Connor?


Arno isn't the revenge kind of guy anyway and Connor would try to make peace. I wouldn't see Arno go after him in revenge, but to find out why Shay killed his father, and bring him to justice for it. After all, revenge is a selfish goal, something Arno really isn't. Plus, realistically, people would want to know why someone would kill a loved one in the first place. If one of you people were killed by someone else, you would like to know why, right?




Arno has Napoleon to deal with. Shay never was a frantic, it would be just as confusing to say the same about Connor. Spinning both characters upside down and destroying them. We could say Shay literally shaped US, imagine if Achilles fanatic order found a Fist Civ. temple in the US instead of the Arctic. It won't do down. What I think? I think this thread is funny, it's another ermagerd bad guy Shay that's out of his character.

Which is the reason why I am discussing this. Shay isn't a villian at all, hell I can't be even sure to call him an antihero either. Like you said, if it weren't for Shay, Achilles might have accidentally done something much worse. To be fair though, if Shay and Achilles had enough time to cool down and only listen to one another, things could have turned out for the better.

Namikaze_17
02-04-2015, 10:57 PM
True, however there is no confirmation that Shay and the American Rite are against Germain's fraction either. Hence why I quoted his talk, it sounded like he was for it, hence this theory debate.

You're right. It can't be confirmed or debunked at this point.

However, if Shay was hypothetically for what Germain was planning to do in Unity as hinted in that quote, you would think Shay would've been hinted or referenced at some point right? That is unless Shay left straight away without giving his name or just told Germain "to forget about him".

It's also possible they could've had a plan of getting rid of Dorian & De la Serre separately, but that would also have to mean that Shay knew of Germain's grand plan with the Revolution and such as well. Which in turn, goes against his character.

I know people change, but I don't think Shay would go that drastic.



Yes, but that tone of his made it so....dark. Which only raised my suspicion. After all, tone of voice can make a difference within a meaning of a speech.

True, it can interpreted in many ways which also gave me suspicions of what he intends to do now?

Will he return to America and fight Connor? Go somewhere else? It's uncertain.





It best mentioned by Shay's voice actor, and I agree with him on this, is that they do care for the people, its just that since they think differently on how to do, it is the major reason why they will fight in the first place. Plus, will Shay take kindly on Haytham's death? I mean he got hot blooded for the people that were killed in Lisbon, maybe it will be the same to Connor?

Shay was hardly close to Haytham really. Their interests were simply aligned in stopping the colonial brotherhood and Haytham sent him away again. What a dynamic! :rolleyes:

And it's pretty clear Haytham killed himself in his battle with Connor. Whether Connor knew or not is debatable.

I personally think Shay would hold some grudge against Connor in the sense of him eradicating the colonial rite and such, but he can be reasoned with.

Besides, Haytham is one man, Shay witnessed a whole city get destroyed in front of him because of the Assassins he cooperated with.

Once he realizes Connor's actions formed a prospering nation, he'll think differently perhaps.




I wouldn't see Arno go after him in revenge, but to find out why Shay killed his father, and bring him to justice for it. After all, revenge is a selfish goal, something Arno really isn't. Plus, realistically, people would want to know why someone would kill a loved one in the first place. If one of you people were killed by someone else, you would like to know why, right?

Arno doesn't need to discover. Why?

Because Shay killing Charles was strictly business.

What Shay did wasn't personal, it was just another murder he had to commit in the AVT war.

People only want Arno to exact revenge and/or discover his father's killer because he became the protagonist of Unity.

No one cared for Duncan little, ( Connor's recruit) when Haytham killed his Uncle Maiko. Yet give the said character a main game, some backstory, and actual screen time then it matters. :rolleyes:

Besides by Dead Kings, it seems Arno is over that fiasco. Especially when there are other important matters like Napoleon and such going about.

Not aiming this at you, I'm just making a point.

VestigialLlama4
02-05-2015, 12:25 PM
Strictly speaking all Assassins and all Templars in the series are fanatics, even the nice ones. Their basic assumption is Peace is the Last Resort, Temporary and only possible if it serves them better than killing the other side. Neither side bothers actually defining what the Order or the Creed actually means, how it changes in different circumstances, and many of them have irrational goals like revenge, which is a fanatical goal but somehow is highly popular in popular culture.

So yes Shay is a fanatic, in so far that having disillusioned himself of the Assassins, he becomes a Templar rather than finding something meaningful to do with his life.

Perk89
02-05-2015, 09:40 PM
I'd gotten the impression throughout the game that he didn't really care all that much for the Templars, he just blamed Achilles for what happened.

that guy with the fake Adewale quote in his sig on this forum really hits it on the head. He seems more angry.. And borderline petty... Than changed. Still a decent story, or at least it could have been had it not been the length of an Elder Scrolls expansion pack.

DemonLord4lf
02-05-2015, 11:33 PM
Perhaps he was tricked by another Templar, or perhaps he just wanted Chaos to achieve his own goals. It seems to be a pattern here though. If i remember correctly, Ezio was the only Assassin to question the creed, saying it only brought Chaos.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Fatal-Feit
02-05-2015, 11:46 PM
Ezio was the only Assassin to question the creed, saying it only brought Chaos.

Ezio never questioned the Creed, IIRC. You're mistaking him for Haytham.

Altair, Edward, Desmond, Arno, and Shay are the Assassins who questioned the Creed. Maybe Aveline as well, but I don't remember much of Liberation's story.

DemonLord4lf
02-05-2015, 11:53 PM
Ezio never questioned the Creed, IIRC. You're mistaking him for Haytham.

Altair, Edward, Desmond, Arno, and Shay are the Assassins who questioned the Creed. Maybe Aveline as well, but I don't remember much of Liberation's story.

Hmmm... Maybe it was Connor that said the creed only led to Chaos. Hatham at first thought Assassins and Templars could work together, but later realized that could never happen.

Fatal-Feit
02-05-2015, 11:55 PM
Hmmm... Maybe it was Connor that said the creed only led to Chaos. Hatham at first thought Assassins and Templars could work together, but later realized that could never happen.

You got their characters mixed up.

It's definitely Haytham.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWhc6KGu11E

DemonLord4lf
02-06-2015, 12:01 AM
You got their characters mixed up.

It's definitely Haytham.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWhc6KGu11E

I could've sworn one of the assassins says something along the lines that the creed leads only to Chaos... Perhaps your right and i'm mixing it up with Haytham, but then again, most Templars say the Creed leads to Chaos.

Mr.Black24
02-06-2015, 12:47 AM
I could've sworn one of the assassins says something along the lines that the creed leads only to Chaos... Perhaps your right and i'm mixing it up with Haytham, but then again, most Templars say the Creed leads to Chaos.
Thats because the Templars don't understand the Creed, like how many Assassins once believed that Templars want power for the sake of it. Its only recently and the Leventine Assassins knew that Templars went after power for the sake of controlling society.
As Ezio puts it: "To say nothing is true, is to realize the foundations of society are fragile, and we must be the shepherds of our own civilization, to say that everything is permitted, is to understand that we are the architects of our actions, and we must live though them, whenever glorious...or tragic." That peace learned though freewill is better than forced by an iron hand.

But back on topic,


You're right. It can't be confirmed or debunked at this point.


However, if Shay was hypothetically for what Germain was planning to do in Unity as hinted in that quote, you would think Shay would've been hinted or referenced at some point right? That is unless Shay left straight away without giving his name or just told Germain "to forget about him".


It's also possible they could've had a plan of getting rid of Dorian & De la Serre separately, but that would also have to mean that Shay knew of Germain's grand plan with the Revolution and such as well. Which in turn, goes against his character.


I know people change, but I don't think Shay would go that drastic.
Well in the world of writing, character development can go two ways, either be a better person, or one with a darker heart. Not all character development is positive. If Shay does go this route, how does he plunge down the abyss, and will it make sense, is what I want to know. But like Steven said in the podcast, it would be better if Shay was still himself, but more wiser and cunning.

And I still say its still mind numbing that Shay hints of a new Revolution, yet has no part in it whatsoever. Did he just root for them from America or something?







True, it can interpreted in many ways which also gave me suspicions of what he intends to do now?


Will he return to America and fight Connor? Go somewhere else? It's uncertain.


So many questions still unanswered in the American Saga, yet the devs consider it done? Hahaha nah, if we were to go with that logic, than if I built a house, than despite the missing windows, uninstalled plumbing, uninstalled doors, missing roof, and the unpainted walls, the house is done!:rolleyes:









Shay was hardly close to Haytham really. Their interests were simply aligned in stopping the colonial brotherhood and Haytham sent him away again. What a dynamic!


And it's pretty clear Haytham killed himself in his battle with Connor. Whether Connor knew or not is debatable.


I personally think Shay would hold some grudge against Connor in the sense of him eradicating the colonial rite and such, but he can be reasoned with.


Besides, Haytham is one man, Shay witnessed a whole city get destroyed in front of him because of the Assassins he cooperated with.


Once he realizes Connor's actions formed a prospering nation, he'll think differently perhaps.
He would, but just like how it always have been, they will both differ in how to help build the new nation. If they did form a truce, how did it end up breaking is the mystery.









Arno doesn't need to discover. Why?


Because Shay killing Charles was strictly business.


What Shay did wasn't personal, it was just another murder he had to commit in the AVT war.


People only want Arno to exact revenge and/or discover his father's killer because he became the protagonist of Unity.


No one cared for Duncan little, ( Connor's recruit) when Haytham killed his Uncle Maiko. Yet give the said character a main game, some backstory, and actual screen time then it matters.


Besides by Dead Kings, it seems Arno is over that fiasco. Especially when there are other important matters like Napoleon and such going about.


Not aiming this at you, I'm just making a point. You're right, what Shay did wasn't personal. However to Arno, it will be since HE KILLED HIS DAD!!! For the sake of this argument, lets use an example here *it might sound crude, I'm trying to make a point* , if your folks were killed because they witness a mafia execution out of pure unlucky timing, you wouldn't care if it were killed our of strict business. I doubt you would go, "Oh it was just business than? Ok, well I'm on my way than!" Nah, you would want justice for them. Arno would want to know the truth behind his father's death, just as he wanted to know for his adopted father.

I can see Arno drop what he was doing and stay in America for at least 1 year to hunt down Shay with Connor. Especially since he considered himself redeemed from past deaths in 1808. Between 1794 and 1808, you can squeeze in a Shay hunt in there easily.

As for Duncan, technically he did bring Haytham down by being a member of the Brotherhood and helped bring down the Templars with Connor, with the latter delivering the final blow to both Haytham and Lee.