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XyZspineZyX
08-24-2003, 09:28 AM
Ever since Fb was released I have had a Very hard time spotting aircraft flying against the ground,I was wondering if many people feel the same.

The other reason I ask is becuase at the same time I upgraded my pc so this may also be part of the problem.

What I would like to see is aircraft more than 500m away be shown as any colour other than the background colour (even a black dot would be better than we have now).I love to play without icons but find it next to impossible to dogfight as it is now.

By the way I fly mostly VVS and think If had to fly as Axis this would totaly spoil this game for me.

No1RAAF_Pourshot


http://members.optusnet.com.au/~andycarroll68/CAC-15.jpg

How many people think this is a p-51/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-24-2003, 09:28 AM
Ever since Fb was released I have had a Very hard time spotting aircraft flying against the ground,I was wondering if many people feel the same.

The other reason I ask is becuase at the same time I upgraded my pc so this may also be part of the problem.

What I would like to see is aircraft more than 500m away be shown as any colour other than the background colour (even a black dot would be better than we have now).I love to play without icons but find it next to impossible to dogfight as it is now.

By the way I fly mostly VVS and think If had to fly as Axis this would totaly spoil this game for me.

No1RAAF_Pourshot


http://members.optusnet.com.au/~andycarroll68/CAC-15.jpg

How many people think this is a p-51/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-24-2003, 09:34 AM
I think that visual on large ships should be on far greater distance then what it is now... I mean, you're able to see a large ship from lot more than 5-10km away!

XyZspineZyX
08-24-2003, 09:36 AM
oh...forgot onw thing:

How is it normal that a ship can see me from far greater distance (small aircraft) and I can see the ship (huge object) from much shorter distance?!

XyZspineZyX
08-24-2003, 01:07 PM
i think the problem is not that you see very bad in a pc screen, the problem is ai pilots see you even far, and the greater think is they see you through the clouds!! and fire to you with perfect accurate inside the it!!!!
i think fighter pilot work is not easy, but must be so difficult for everyone (including ai pilots!!!!)

SergeVE
08-24-2003, 01:47 PM
I partly agree with you.
One the one hand , the visibility and detail on a computer-screen is limited compared to real life

But on the other hand , they didn't paint military aircraft in camouflage colors just for fun .

It was MEANT to make them less visible .

That's why the top side is usually painted in green / brown , and the bottom side in a light blue coloror light grey .
This has a functional reason , and it is not for cosmetic purposes .


Cheers




Message Edited on 08/24/0309:09PM by SergeVE

XyZspineZyX
08-24-2003, 02:22 PM
The Facts of the matter however is the limitations of the interface we use for the game, you will never be able to see as well as you could in real life.

That is why Oleg worked with some Ex WW 2 pilots to configure the Padlock assisted view, to bring more realism to the game so that your virtual pilot could spot a plane that you would see in real life, but that you could never spot in the game at the present time.

Some have said that Padlock is a cheat, not so, hosting a server with maximum hard settings then flying 50 ft of the deck is 100% away from the reality of Air Combat in WW2.

In real life you would be a dead duck doing that, flying with those sort of settings in FB is not a full reality mode.

The Padlock assisted view, prevents the low flying cheat using the interface to advantage.

The Padlock assisted view restores reality to the game, as in if you fly low and slow you are a dead duck, just like you would be in REALITY.

Mind you Padlock assisted view only, with all other settings on is actual full reality mode in FB.
If you come accross a server that has all settings on with pilots flying around on the deck, then just avoid that server, they are using the current inadequate viewing interface of the Game to advantage, just avoid all servers like that and your problem is solved, only about 5% of the FB community use those settings anyway.

S!



Message Edited on 08/24/0301:51PM by Artic_Wulf

XyZspineZyX
08-24-2003, 03:20 PM
I play full real and see grey specks moving against the ground when I look closely.

Not a problem most of the time. I use scanning techniques of covering certain sectors at a time. Before playing full real, I couldn't see anything. Then, I noticed my eyes became more 'trained' and it's easier today.

There is a 2-3km range against trees that can pose an issue. However, I can usually see movement.

(With padlock at 3km - you still have to see the bandit way before padlock range to be effective imo.)

S!
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XyZspineZyX
08-24-2003, 11:47 PM
Artic_Wulf wrote:
Some have said that Padlock is a cheat, not so, hosting a server with maximum hard settings then flying 50 ft of the deck is 100% away from the reality of Air Combat in WW2.

In real life you would be a dead duck doing that, flying with those sort of settings in FB is not a full reality mode.

The Padlock assisted view, prevents the low flying cheat using the interface to advantage.

I have to disagree with this statement. Many missions were flown at low level. Even bombers, Doolittles raid, The B-24 attack on Ploesti just to name a few. Why did they do that? To avoid detection! To say that flying on the deck is a cheat is completely wrong. Many many missions were flown very low. If a guy wants to fly low thats perfectly normal. Now we get back to the post as to why they painted the planes the way they did. It wasnt because they thought it looked cool. Harder for AA to see it high and harder for planes to see it low. Padlock may offer more realistic head movement, but I also think it is a bit overdone as to how it aquires and tracks targets. If you cant see the plane thats to bad. The computer should not be finding them for you. Even modern day jets fly low for the same reasons. There is a need for high altitude flying as well as low. And low flying is NOT a cheat. Its a tactic, and padlock denies this tactic to the opponent. Thats where padlock gets called a cheat.

...and once you have tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward,
for there you have been and there you long to return.
~leonardo de vinci

XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 12:13 AM
the cheating part comes when you are unable to spot an enemy AC because your Pc is a low-end one, or because it hasn't been "rendered" yet by the system. The cheat is in taking advantage of the game limitations to escape. Flying low would get the enemy some cover, but he wouldn't be close to invisible, and in the game that happens because of the rendering distance of the objects. That's why the padlock is valid. But, IMO there shouldn't be the triangle locking the enemy, you should only get a "hint" on where the bogey is, not his exact location

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XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 12:32 AM
You guys need to read the ad nauseum posts about "full realism", or the lack there of, that was talked about over the last few days.

All the best, Don

XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 07:38 AM
Modern jet fighters fly at low level to avoid detection BY RADAR, as terrain adds noise to the radar return and makes it harder to diffrentiate between the plane and the ground.
I'm not going to argue about your other points, just wanted to point out that the analogy of a WWII fighter flying low and a modern jet doing the same is hardly relevant.

Redwulf__55 wrote:
- Artic_Wulf wrote:
- Some have said that Padlock is a cheat, not so,
- hosting a server with maximum hard settings then
- flying 50 ft of the deck is 100% away from the
- reality of Air Combat in WW2.
-
- In real life you would be a dead duck doing that,
- flying with those sort of settings in FB is not a
- full reality mode.
-
- The Padlock assisted view, prevents the low flying
- cheat using the interface to advantage.
-
- I have to disagree with this statement. Many
- missions were flown at low level. Even bombers,
- Doolittles raid, The B-24 attack on Ploesti just to
- name a few. Why did they do that? To avoid
- detection! To say that flying on the deck is a cheat
- is completely wrong. Many many missions were flown
- very low. If a guy wants to fly low thats perfectly
- normal. Now we get back to the post as to why they
- painted the planes the way they did. It wasnt
- because they thought it looked cool. Harder for AA
- to see it high and harder for planes to see it low.
- Padlock may offer more realistic head movement, but
- I also think it is a bit overdone as to how it
- aquires and tracks targets. If you cant see the
- plane thats to bad. The computer should not be
- finding them for you. Even modern day jets fly low
- for the same reasons. There is a need for high
- altitude flying as well as low. And low flying is
- NOT a cheat. Its a tactic, and padlock denies this
- tactic to the opponent. Thats where padlock gets
- called a cheat.
-
- ...and once you have tasted flight, you will walk
- the earth with your eyes turned skyward,
- for there you have been and there you long to
- return.
- ~leonardo de vinci

XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 09:29 AM
Artic_Wulf wrote:

- That is why Oleg worked with some Ex WW 2 pilots to
- configure the Padlock assisted view, to bring more
- realism to the game so that your virtual pilot could
- spot a plane that you would see in real life, but
- that you could never spot in the game at the present
- time.

- Artic_Wulf

I think that Artic Wulf said the most solid point right there. Suppose this and why did that just do not hold up to the judgement of men who were there especially when more than one is involved. This is just one of the places where Oleg and Crew have taken much care and should not be casually blown off.

PL is on the conservative side as it is, not easy to use and swings the view widly at times. Not easy to break and reacquire (spelling? 2 c's?) with no option to toggle off and back which normal head and eye movement allow without thought. It is oriented to fixation and a bad habit to depend on or use for more than a handful of seconds, only preferrable to using pan and snap alone when chasing a target and then not without those disadvantages noted above.
Yet still, there is whining about it and elitist attitudes generally from those with extra hardware to enhance snap and pan use, from super HOTAS's to TIR. Many against PL have extensive time with special setups for snap views and either won't or can't learn to fly with PL on, they lose control... well so do I sometimes the way it works in IL2/FB!
How can anyone get so upset about any kind of advantage when there are so many disadvantages to go with it? Especially when the "advantage" is only to compensate for the disadvantage of screen pixels? It is only an advantage in ONE area where the non-PL-whiners have accepted a disadvantage to themselves and will not concede that IL2/FB PL has inherent disadvantages of its own where they do not.


Neal

XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 10:03 AM
After putting my monitor on my old system and playing the origanal il2 I had no problem seeing the enemy at all,so next I will reinstall the origanal on to my new system and do a back to back,sure hope it's not the video card /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

Any way the main thing I wanted to know from people is do you think it is harder to see planes against the ground in FB as compared to il2 for me the colours just blend together as if the the plane has a cloking device. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

No1RAAF_Pourshot


http://members.optusnet.com.au/~andycarroll68/CAC-15.jpg

CAC CA-15 Kangaroo

XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 10:16 AM
It depends a lot on graphics settings and color depth. You can actually see some things better at some lower settings but IMO 16 bit color allows things to blend quicker.


Neal

XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 10:40 AM
Anyone who loves padlock should try flying for ex. Il2 Sturmovik very low in teh way as it was in RL. If anyone flying above you is proficient in anything else than fequently hitting F4, then you are DOOMED. You really think that IL2 was able to fight with Me109 or Fw190 once spotted? NO! Most IL2 survives only thaks to the fact that enemy could't see them. If LW pilot had padlock then even 100 000 Il2 woud't be enough LOL!

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 11:08 AM
Actualy the Luftwaffe was spread very thin accross the Eastern Front, the IL-2 was also a ground attack aircraft.
Low flying IL-2s that had German aircraft fly over them where spotted and attacked.
The ME 109 usualy did not have sufficent fire power to bring the IL-2 down on quite a few occasions ( nick named by the Germans the concrete plane)

Otherwise the Il-2 was hunting for ground targets, and no Luftwaffe in the area, to spot them flying low and slow and then attack them, there was never enough German aircraft on any particular front except the Battle of Britain, and Hitler was massing troops in the East as that stoush was going on anyway.

Any success atributed to the IL-2 in regards to low flying can be attributed to its ground attack role, and the insufficent numbers of german aircraft at the Eastern front, not the fact that flying low was a good combat tactic.

I would not mind betting there where more Focke Wulfs engaged in the West trying to shoot down B-17s, than hunting for low flying Il-2s on the Russian Front.

All other responses in regards to Low flying used as a Tactic in WW2, it was always to a ground attack Target with out the Enemy being aware that the force was approaching, plus they did not fly under enemy air patrols that would have seen them.
The Doo little raid was given as an example, I doubt the Japanese would have even had standing air patrols, around Japan that early in the War, and if they did, the Doo little bombers where fortunate not to fly under them.

I can not find a single reference in WW 2 where flying Low and slow was a successfull dog fighting tactic used by any airforce, probably because they all got killed.

Which brings me back to my point on padlock assisted view, the designers of this game obviously created the padlock view with limited range, because if you came within that limited range, you would have been seen even if you where flying right on the deck in real life, because the plane that padlocked you was flying at a lower altitude as well where he would have spotted you in real life.
So the Padlock view was designed with realism in mind.

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 12:11 PM
after I join host the first thing I do is check full real setting
if he(host) set up 100% full real or + speed bar (for red friend )
then I will select BF109s then click fly http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

so I have no problem with FR because if I see padlock is open(on)
I will not join that host. because for me padlock/off is good real
fun for hunting skill and I never complain about the airplane performance

just one thing that I complain , that is my skill and my experience

( is not a machine but the man )


i will very happy when I met a good pilot(red friend) with Yak# or La#
becuse in the difficult situation ( FR 100% ) we can learn and respect
to each other while we hutting



just select to host that you like ,then you will find a good friend
with same dimisions of fun http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


if you have a problem with yak3 (good pilot) just try this way .-

make QMB (100% FR) for off line training select any 109(G14 is my key) that
you like then select 2x Yak3 AI (ace) and try hard for 50-80 mission

that situation tech me to learn for deffensive and offensive at the
same time http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I belive you will find many tactic.



sorry for my bad writting

S!

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 01:43 PM
LOL,
Ive been playing this Game since it was released, I dont have a problem flying with any settings.
I was just answering a previouse post about the difficulty of spotting an enemy in the user interface we have for FB.

S!

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 01:44 PM
I was on the GreaterGreen server yesterday and had an odd experience.

I was on a bandit's 6(skimming the ground at zero feet) and he seemed to just disappear into the terrain/background,without pulling away from me.
(difficult to explain,but he just seemed to have faded out/vanished).

It happened a few times during my time there.

I don't normally fly without P/L so it's probably just that I'm not accustomed to the settings

This had never happened before,so are there any tips for countering this?

(ps,I'm not implying this is in anyway a cheat!)

my settings

1600x1200x32
XP2700+
9800Pro

Max visual settings,'cept perfect.

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 01:48 PM
Buy a car racing sim, or fly in a Padlock server,
(chuckle)

S!

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 02:01 PM
FireBird77 wrote:
- Anyone who loves padlock should try flying for ex.
- Il2 Sturmovik very low in teh way as it was in RL.
- If anyone flying above you is proficient in anything
- else than fequently hitting F4, then you are DOOMED.
- You really think that IL2 was able to fight with
- Me109 or Fw190 once spotted? NO! Most IL2 survives
- only thaks to the fact that enemy could't see them.
- If LW pilot had padlock then even 100 000 Il2 woud't
- be enough LOL!

Not even. You have to be above a certain alt just to drop bombs without fragging yourself. It takes time to get a loaded IL2 up to effective alt. Maybe you should read some more history or specify how low and how slow.

In the early phases of Barbarossa, many single seat IL2's were used as fighters although mostly for bomber interceptions. Consider the invention of the Taran attack was because the I-16's and even P-40's were not enough against the masses of Ju88's and other schnell bombers killing Russian civilians in cities.

I've flown 2 seat IL2's in coops where we got jumped. Over half the time I got the target and made it home. I don't mind saying that I ran low and fast (well fast for an IL2 but over 320kph!) getting home just because losing alt gave me the speed to put the distance where I was out of sight from the enemy while they were tied up by MiG escorts. Would you take bombers in unescorted when there was a high probability of meeting enemy fighters? There is how to be DOOMED! Just be stoo-pid about strat-eg-y or maybe play in circle-@#$% DF "arenas" in a bomber!

(sigh) Why do I argue realism with someone who plays DF?


Neal

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 04:19 PM
~S!

Picking up visual traffic/other aircraft is hard in RL, especially if the aircraft are not manuevering, and especially if they are lower than you. They are hidden in the ground clutter.

But having said that, its harder in the sim as you just cannot get the same visual picture as you do from the real thing. The revisted RP ranges help, as it presents a similar "sight picture" to the one you see out of the cockpit, RL. I see 'em then lose 'em, and maybe reaquire. When I upgraded vid card and monitor, this helped.



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XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 04:03 AM
Dear, Zikky

I was face same situation like you
My idea for this problem have 2 cause

1. ping rate communication problem or
2. your target apply low attitude run away over trees
3. 1+2


I found some deffensive tactic from red friend when he was hit
and turn deffesive runaway with very low level and make me out
of spot

if we set padlock/on we will never learn about this kind of tactic



S!

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 09:25 AM
S! All,

For the record, I tend not to use PL because the temptation is to use it as a radar. Flying with it off forces me to look harder. But I don't mind flying against people who use it.

But there are some misconceptions being bandied around here regarding whether low flying was a deliberate tactic in WW2. Some time ago I read an excellent series of online web pages covering tactical combat training given to Finnish pilots in WW2 (lost the link /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif ). One page discussed the optimal patrol altitude, covering issues of the difficulty in identifying low targets (with/without cloud, over ocean, against forests), and also the problem of being highly visible against the sky if flying too high.

The message was: if you want to see everything that's around, then fly low. If you want to survive, fly high. If you fly low and get seen by someone above, you're probably dead. If you fly high, you may miss someone below you but you probably can still survive if they attack.

So that was what they were teaching WW2 pilots. Now, in FB, you can fly high and probably miss 50-70% of the action down in the weeds unless you look hard ALL THE TIME. But at least you can see the major threats as they climb or dive to your level. This is pretty realistic, and you don't need PL for this. Remember, tracers in FB can be seen for many km, so that is an additional help.

Or you can fly low in the trees and hope that you can sneak under those yellow-noses way up there. Clouds help too. But these tactics can fall down when FB pilots use PL to sweep the countryside. That's when the immersion crumbles a little, but it is very hard to prevent people doing this. Of course, external views are even worse immersion killers!

Oh well, enough text. Come and shoot me down sometime on HL!

Cheers,
IV/JG7_4Shades

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 09:31 AM
FourShades wrote:
- Oh well, enough text. Come and shoot me down
- sometime on HL!

Gladly /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 02:32 PM
btw for all those immersion 'freaks' (/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif sorry), I have a question;

do you feel the immersion crumbles when you crash and a message says 'player killed' and *YOU* are still alive?

(maybe we should begin a petition at www.naturalpoint.com (http://www.naturalpoint.com) for them to create some sort of insta-kill-device (USB supported ofcourse))

Message Edited on 08/27/0303:34PM by Fresshness

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 03:22 PM
Fresshness wrote:
- do you feel the immersion crumbles when you crash
- and a message says 'player killed' and *YOU* are
- still alive?
-
- (maybe we should begin a petition at
- www.naturalpoint.com (http://www.naturalpoint.com) for them to create some sort of
- insta-kill-device (USB supported ofcourse))

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Good one!

XyZspineZyX
08-28-2003, 01:31 PM
The reality of WW2 combat however was medium to high level flying for fighters.
Mainly because on days with suitable flying weather, if you where flying low, your **** pit canopy was catching the sun and reflecting it at lots of different angles, so where different parts of your plane.

You could be spotted all too easily, but not in this Sim because its like cartoon land down there, good as this sim is.
If you wish to simulate reality in IL-2/FB you cannot avoid padlock.
Even Oleg said it was developed to be used with full reality mode.
I mean that in the sense that in real life a pilot was looking all over the place, and padlock with limited range is only supposed to work through the viewable area of your **** pit canopy, and when you spot a plane in real life, your head moves following it, which you cannot do in this Sim without, further input by you to the Virtual pilot head, via what ever keys you have for those views.
Padlock shortcuts that to reality pilot head movement with out extra in put commands by you, as it would be in real life.

S!



Message Edited on 08/28/0312:41PM by Artic_Wulf

XyZspineZyX
08-31-2003, 11:20 AM
Actually Fresshness, I read some where a while back that mad catz (i think) was making a controller that gives electric shocks. USB supported of course. But i doubt this will ever be legal in US. Maybe I'll move just to get one. LOL, bring on the pain.

XyZspineZyX
08-31-2003, 06:33 PM
yungblud wrote:
- Actually Fresshness, I read some where a while back
- that mad catz (i think) was making a controller that
- gives electric shocks. USB supported of course. But
- i doubt this will ever be legal in US. Maybe I'll
- move just to get one. LOL, bring on the pain.

you sure you didn't get this info from a bondage pr0n site?


just kidding /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif



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XyZspineZyX
09-01-2003, 03:59 AM
try lowering your visability to the lowest and you can spot them much easier.

it makes no sense at all that lower visabilty lets you see aircraft better in the distance and while flying low to the ground and over trees in in head 2 head passes.

oleg needs to rework every lod model and make them smaller so low visability people dont have a visual advantage of seeing aircraft better, they did it for low end systems but it backfired bigtime into giving people an advantage. but it will unlikely ever be fixed becuase of the ammount of work




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XyZspineZyX
09-02-2003, 03:47 AM
Padlock is just fine as it is.

Note that we, humans, padlock in real life all the time, for lots of activities.

With the patch 1.1b the PD distance is shorter which adds some difficulty/realism.

But it must be used with icons off and map icons off.

Then we can padlock whatever we see but have to VID before a kill.

So we must loose some time closing in for the VID and eventually have to break off and search for a 'real bandit' as sometimes, in the fog of war, we padlock a friendly.

As for the difficulty spotting aircraft flying low, well, that's just like in real life.

The easiest place to spot an aircraft from our own is at the horizon or slightly higher, which implies we are a bit lower.

Looking too low, with a good stack of altitude, or too high is extremely difficult to spot other aircraft.