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LLv34_Stafroty
08-24-2004, 02:40 PM
I just had though that why fighters lose top speed when hitted with machinegun (7,62-.50cal)
i think its wrong because all those guns do is small holes on plane skin, so it should not affect so much on maneuverability or speed.

while HE ammo hits from cannons should reduce speed MUCH more because it rips plane skin all wide open, large hole per hit. loss of speed and loss of maneuverability too.

machineguns are useful only when hitting critical parts, like wing spar, pilot, fuel tank, oxygen/boost bottles, hydraylics/control wires, radiators or engine. there isnt much else for penetrating ammo to damage/disaple. cannons do the same, and same time rip the skin of the Aircraft and deform its body too, which should result much greater damage in many other ways. what u think guys? hope Oleg understands the difference and make MUCH more complex damage model in BoB... i only can wish.

LLv34_Stafroty
08-24-2004, 02:40 PM
I just had though that why fighters lose top speed when hitted with machinegun (7,62-.50cal)
i think its wrong because all those guns do is small holes on plane skin, so it should not affect so much on maneuverability or speed.

while HE ammo hits from cannons should reduce speed MUCH more because it rips plane skin all wide open, large hole per hit. loss of speed and loss of maneuverability too.

machineguns are useful only when hitting critical parts, like wing spar, pilot, fuel tank, oxygen/boost bottles, hydraylics/control wires, radiators or engine. there isnt much else for penetrating ammo to damage/disaple. cannons do the same, and same time rip the skin of the Aircraft and deform its body too, which should result much greater damage in many other ways. what u think guys? hope Oleg understands the difference and make MUCH more complex damage model in BoB... i only can wish.

JimmyGiro
08-24-2004, 02:51 PM
Next you'll be asking Oleg to model the ammount of alcohol in the pilots bloodstream and the way it effects FM.

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

___________________________
Truth abhors a compromise.

LLv34_Stafroty
08-24-2004, 02:53 PM
and then you would not stand a chance against me

Ugly_Kid
08-24-2004, 03:02 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LLv34_Stafroty:
and then you would not stand a chance against me<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Be sure http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif

http://people.freenet.de/hausberg/oksennus_1.jpg

LLv34_Stafroty
08-24-2004, 03:04 PM
the weapon effect would need two seperate ways of model damage. one way for AP ammo and other for HE ammo. there is many games which have quite good ways of modelling damage realistic ways. like steel beasts. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

T_O_A_D
08-24-2004, 03:10 PM
Just curious Ugly_Kid what does your sig mean?

Have you checked your Private Topics recently? (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=ugtpc&s=400102)
My TrackIR fix, Read the whole thread (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?q=Y&a=tpc&s=400102&f=49310655&m=15310285&p=1)
Commanding Officer of the 131st_VFW (http://www.geocities.com/vfw_131st/)
http://home.mchsi.com/~131st_vfw/T_O_A_D.jpg

Ugly_Kid
08-24-2004, 03:33 PM
Staf will explain it was actually his doing...

http://people.freenet.de/hausberg/oksennus_1.jpg

LLv34_Stafroty
08-24-2004, 03:34 PM
hehe kid http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif i can´t believe that, nor can´t deny it http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

WWMaxGunz
08-24-2004, 04:14 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LLv34_Stafroty:
the weapon effect would need two seperate ways of model damage. one way for AP ammo and other for HE ammo. there is many games which have quite good ways of modelling damage realistic ways. like steel beasts. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I can strongly agree that this would be nice indeed but feel that all damage is one way
as I guess that you do. Next sim maybe? Bullet holes on exit are sometimes not clean
holes as well but broken skin torn and spread up & out. Would that tear in highspeed
wind or just cause drag vortex, disturbed boundary layer and loss of lift resulting in
higher lift to drag? But mostly IMO it is a single damage type modelled and the graphic
does not tell us the story.

Steel Beasts... how fast they fly?


Neal

LLv34_Stafroty
08-24-2004, 04:50 PM
anyway Gunz, cannons make way much bigger hole when hit. many times bigger.

WWMaxGunz
08-24-2004, 05:34 PM
Explosive shell does. I don't see that in FB, but graphic in FB is generic as seems
to be damage. That is a big change in the code and chances of that are smaller than
hitting a big lottery with one ticket.

If it was me, the explosive shells would be made stronger because that is adjustment
of a single value for each shell maybe, or very few. But, it is not me deciding.


Neal

p1ngu666
08-24-2004, 09:05 PM
mg more likely to swisscheese a wing?

http://www.pingu666.modded.me.uk/mysig3.jpg
&lt;123_GWood_JG123&gt; NO SPAM!

WWMaxGunz
08-25-2004, 09:34 AM
Lots of MG's maybe.

It was not only the US who used quad 12.7's for AA guns.
Some even used duals, but upped bore to 20mm and better range.
But then many AA guns had longer barrels, weight no big issue, right?


Neal

LLv34_Stafroty
08-25-2004, 04:23 PM
well, u need some 3-4 .50cals to make same effect of damage than with 20mm cannon, so weight is one issue http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

WWMaxGunz
08-25-2004, 08:53 PM
Most good sources I see say 3. If you hit the right place then 1, or even a 30 cal will
do just as well http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif but some others then it would take a long beating of hits
really. Things heat up when hit and metal not tank-thick will not get rid of heat as
fast as even one .50 can add (seen video but it takes many seconds to read-heat and
then pierce an APC side which is unreal expectation for one .50 in combat!). Even
regular armor steel loses strength, temper, when heated. Note this from machinists
and other metal workers as well, a razor from hot water will lose edge quicker than
one allowed to cool, no lie. If the bullet would be close to penetrate then many hits
previous will make the next better chances... but I say the closeness to penetrate
matters very much and the number and speed (more hits quicker, less time to soak off
heat) makes a difference. Reality; I don't expect wing guns to all hit one area like
that anyway... the 20mm AP is a MUCH more sure thing of penetrating armor but with
the 50's it is possible, only possible.
Modern fighter guns are 20mm, high velocity, high ROF, better sights, longer ranges also
typical in combat. Even that helecopter gun, almost 800 m/s at muzzle and what ROF?
600/s for 30mm? AP will quickly heat a target as will HEAT rounds for light armor
and of course the killer Hellfires for heavy armor and quick kills. You ever played
the Janes Apache Gold? I wonder how realistic it is? But I do not believe that WWII
had fighter guns to match, even the 50mm 262's.


Neal

LLv34_Stafroty
08-25-2004, 09:07 PM
ever heard about MK213? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif) 20mm revolver cannon which was developed in 1945 by germans http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Rof was something like 1200-1300 rounds per sec and muzzle velocity over 1000m/sec, ammo weighted douple the normal 20mm round used that time. that thing had power man http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif would oleg model one bf109 with that kinda nose cannon? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_redface.gif

bit too late for war use, but nowadays its principle is used by many countries. http://pub4.ezboard.com/fbasementlfrm19.showMessage?topicID=16.topic this is one evolution model of it.¨

yea, i know that things get hot when they get hitted, and metal goes soft too. but that is bit out of this case. it does not go anywhere that hot that it comes red http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif been penetrating iron and steel plates with hunting rifle and pistol http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif (damn large cal pistol http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
.357 magnum only took paints off from those plates, same with .45 cal and .44 cal pistols, FMJ ammo http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif but hunting rifle with lead head ammo made nice lil holes in it like with FMJ ammo did. the pistol used full lead ammo and penetrated those plates, not cleanly but ripped and deformed em totally http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif i could try to take pics of them when i next time go where the targets are http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif (at my grandmothers..)

ps. ive been shooting with lots of differend weapons so i know a bit..

have you seen when something is shot with cannon? ive seen. and ive seen when something is shot with russian 12,7mm machinegun.(better than browning) after u´ve seen what cannons make you dont like 12,7mm anymore http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

1x MK 108 - 87 rpg - 111 kg - 5030 kW firepower - firepower per weight: 45,31 kW/kg
1x MK 103 - 75 rpg - 210 kg - 4080 kW firepower - firepower per weight: 19,43 kW/kg
2x MG 151/20 - 207 rpg - 172 kg - 2540 kW firepower - firepower per weight: 14,75 kW/kg
2x Hispano V - 212 rpg - 188 kg - 2470 kW firepower - firepower per weight: 13,13 kW/kg
2x Hispano II - 206 rpg - 201 kg - 2120 kW firepower - firepower per weight: 10,56 kW/kg
3x MG-FF - 149 rpg - 235 kg - 2340 kW firepower - firepower per weight: 9,95 kW/kg
5x MG 151 - 239 rpg - 428 kg - 2190 kW firepower - firepower per weight: 5,13 kW/kg
10x MG 131 - 311 rpg - 413 kg - 2110 kW firepower - firepower per weight: 5,1 kW/kg
8x ,50 Browning M2 - 250 rpg - 452 kg - 2270 kW firepower - firepower per weight: 5,02 kW/kg
25x Browning ,303 - 399 rpg - 549 kg - 2190 kW firepower - firepower per weight: 3,99 kW/kg

[This message was edited by LLv34_Stafroty on Wed August 25 2004 at 08:20 PM.]

WWMaxGunz
08-25-2004, 09:25 PM
&gt;Originally posted by LLv34_Stafroty:
&gt;ever heard about MK213? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif) 20mm revolver cannon which was developed in 1945 by germans http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Rof was something like 1200-1300 rounds per sec and muzzle velocity over 1000m/sec, ammo weighted douple the normal 20mm round used that time. that thing had power man http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif would oleg model one bf109 with that kinda nose cannon? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_redface.gif

I have read of that gun. What makes you think it would fit in or on a 109? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
What would happen to the 109 if it could attach one and then fired it?

&gt;bit too late for war use, but nowadays its principle is used by many countries. http://pub4.ezboard.com/fbasementlfrm19.showMessage?topicID=16.topic this is one evolution model of it.¨

The basic principle and weapon was developed by a man named Gatling. He did not have a
motor to attach as the Gatling gun was invented decades before WWII.

&gt;yea, i know that things get hot when they get hitted, and metal goes soft too. but that is bit out of this case. it does not go anywhere that hot that it comes red http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif been penetrating iron and steel plates with hunting rifle and pistol http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif (damn large cal pistol http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
.357 magnum only took paints off from those plates, same with .45 cal and .44 cal pistols, FMJ ammo http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif but hunting rifle with lead head ammo made nice lil holes in it like with FMJ ammo did. the pistol used full lead ammo and penetrated those plates, not cleanly but ripped and deformed em totally http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif i could try to take pics of them when i next time go where the targets are http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif (at my grandmothers..)

Did the pistols only take paint off or penetrate? Perhaps penetrate weakened plates from
other hits? Every hard hit makes heat and changes the crystals of the metal. But you
know this. I have seen pictures of clean .17 cal centerfire rifle holes in 1/4" steel
back in 1970. Wicked fast bullets. If your hunting rifle is like 30-06 then you are
firing essentially a military power rifle. I have torn things up with an M-60 7.62mm
belt-fed and continued 9 round bursts on instruction to get through barricades. Not a
tank weapon but very effective on stationary or slow targets. I respect these guns
even if they are not cannon. WWII fighters are far less than even light tanks, after
all and armor mostly limited to pilot seats that I have heard of with some exceptions
like the IL2.


Neal


&gt;ps. ive been shooting with lots of differend weapons so i know a bit..

So have I, but long ago. Once it was part of my job along with the green suit and boots. But then I left that job and the 70's ended soon after.

LLv34_Stafroty
08-25-2004, 09:49 PM
the pistols only take the paint of, not a slightest penetration, but the ehay cal pistol (thompson contender with wicked big cal made hole in it with just lead ammo, the recoil was awesome in it, hurted alot on wrist when fired, the handle of pistol broke cos of recoil actually http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
and yep, its .30-06 or .30-08 cal rifle, not sure which (not mine)

and about the cannon, its not copy of gatling, gatling was multi barreled, that MK213 was single barreled revolver loadin cannon and that allowed it to reach full Rof after first shot fired, like not with Vulcan cannon, it took some 0,4-0,5 sec to reach full rpm http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

WWMaxGunz
08-25-2004, 10:08 PM
Oh, the Thompson Contender? If it's the one I think of it has a long barrel and bolt
action that goes behind the grip, looks a bit space age. Comes chambered for 30-30
or .221 Fireball round with extreme flat trajectory and high penetration a good ways
out. I believe I have a ballistics table for it and verrrry impressive. It was called
by some as an assasins weapon but I think used for target and varmint exploding.

Revolver loading... no I missed that. makes me wonder how long a burst it could fire.
You see, 20mm Vulcan used by US Army in the 70's had a 3 second limit even with all
those barrels and that was controlled by electronics.

Cannon I was used to as part of the FO apparatus, even the 105 produced a 100 meter
radius of casualties with one shot 50 meters above the target. But those are for
uncovered men and maybe some damage to light vehicles. The 155's, much worse. I
have watched a plateau on a mountainside turned into a slope by battalion "time on
target", all guns firing 2 or 3 shots timed to hit all at once. Nothing would
survive, the ground was gone well over 10 meters deep. Me, I watched through a
spotting scope over 2 miles away. That is what cannon mean to me.


neal

LLv34_Stafroty
08-25-2004, 11:42 PM
http://pictures.auctionarms.com/9350203539/Feb19001.JPG that gun, not sure what the caliber was, it was big, maybe even 44.cal or somethin or even .50cal. the cartridge was quite long as was the bullet. same thicknes on cartridge as in bullet. was it casul or something, cannot remember http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif but effective it was. big slug it thrown from barrel http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

WWMaxGunz
08-26-2004, 05:16 AM
Not the same pistol I am thinking of.

I even had the manufacturer mixed up. Pistol I was picturing is Remington XP-100.
Link is too long to type! It's at www.remington.com (http://www.remington.com) in the history section, a
beautiful pistol. Chambered in many calibres, even 7mm-08, .308 and .35, all of
those rifle cartridges. Barrel over 10 inches long with bolt action.

edit: page says Home: about us: History: History: Model XP-100 with nice picture.

I think that the Desert Eagle pistol comes in .50 cal, don't know about cartridges
but it looks like a big .45. Some old 1800's derringers went up to .60 and .70 cal
but 2" barrel I guess you need massive lead with the low velocity. Those also are
hand/wrist breakers.

Have lots of fun shooting next time!


Neal

LLv34_Stafroty
08-26-2004, 05:47 AM
yep, been firing .44cal D.E http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif big gun also. liked more .45cal APC or what that was (hard baller?) its long time i shot with those.
i personally like .22 cal rifle, no too loud sound or recoil, cheap ammo and can fire pretty fast with it even that it bolt action http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

just copy & paste the link: http://www.remington.com/aboutus/history/mxp100.htm was bit hard to find history section on that site http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif but i made it http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif nice piece gotta say http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif