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GazzaMataz
04-14-2004, 08:42 AM
Just been playing the Russian campaign in FB for the first time using the dynamic settings and been posted to Leningrad. I was startled at the little fat plane I-16 I got issued with, such a sweet dinky little thing!

Anyway, I took off and managed to shoot down two Me 109s (WOW - love those rockets) but when it came to flying home I had map trail switched off so I had to revert to the compass - which I couldn't see even close up ...

Ah! If all else fails autopilot, then when I get near the run way I will be able to take over and do a successful crash landing (they bounce alot when you first touch down). Thing is after 30 seconds or so on autopilot it decided to turn the throttle right down and proceeded to head directly toward the ground...

At the time I had me head stuck right in front of the controls trying to read the compass and JUST managed to pull up in time http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Not only that I nearly wet myself at the sound when manually lowering the undercarriage - hilarious squeak!

I eventually managed to land in a field on the Soviet side and got a medal http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Why does this plane decide to do nose dives when in autopilot thought? Anyone got any ideas?

Tickety boo...
Gazzamataz
http://www.gazzamataz.com

GazzaMataz
04-14-2004, 08:42 AM
Just been playing the Russian campaign in FB for the first time using the dynamic settings and been posted to Leningrad. I was startled at the little fat plane I-16 I got issued with, such a sweet dinky little thing!

Anyway, I took off and managed to shoot down two Me 109s (WOW - love those rockets) but when it came to flying home I had map trail switched off so I had to revert to the compass - which I couldn't see even close up ...

Ah! If all else fails autopilot, then when I get near the run way I will be able to take over and do a successful crash landing (they bounce alot when you first touch down). Thing is after 30 seconds or so on autopilot it decided to turn the throttle right down and proceeded to head directly toward the ground...

At the time I had me head stuck right in front of the controls trying to read the compass and JUST managed to pull up in time http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Not only that I nearly wet myself at the sound when manually lowering the undercarriage - hilarious squeak!

I eventually managed to land in a field on the Soviet side and got a medal http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Why does this plane decide to do nose dives when in autopilot thought? Anyone got any ideas?

Tickety boo...
Gazzamataz
http://www.gazzamataz.com

Kasdeya
04-14-2004, 08:49 AM
I am not sure if it is solely that plane, but I have had experiences with the autopilot similar to yours. Once I applied the AP and my plane went into a climb and nearly stalled, I just turned off the AP and corrected the flight path and reinstated the AP. All was well after that. Seems like the AP doesn't always register, and take control of the plane.
Hope this helps.

The I-16 is a hoot to fly, especially the SPB with the TB3.

Kas

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BlitzPig_Ritter
04-14-2004, 09:32 AM
Sometimes the AP can do some pretty stupid things. I've had it slam me into the ground once or twice.

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Hawgdog
04-14-2004, 10:00 AM
Yes, I do love that I-16

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leadbaloon
04-14-2004, 10:09 AM
When I first got into flying campaigns I didn't realise that you had to set the aircraft right through it and after starting in a Lagg found myself being issued with an I-16 when we moved to Smolensk, I cursed and swore at it's inability to handle negative g, found it really difficult to read half the instruments, etc, etc. But once you fly it you love it.

I haven't used the autopilot in years.....

Lunix
04-14-2004, 02:09 PM
I love this little plane. So fun to fly. I usually fly strict BnZ tactics with this plane and do very well with it. Online anyway...

http://members.shaw.ca/corn/il2sig2.jpg

LEXX_Luthor
04-14-2004, 02:49 PM
I forgot where now, but there are some sites that have printable FB maps and once you start using them instead of mini~map its alot of fun and you don't really need compass (too much).

Low Res maps may still be available from here, I dunno...

---> http://www.777avg.com/maps/

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:
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Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

michapma
04-14-2004, 02:54 PM
I've sworn off of autopilot for a long time. The only time I might use it is when I am repeating a mission for the nth time and either taking off or well over 1000m. It's too dangerous otherwise.

The Ishak is a wonder. Check this out:
http://www.skyshow.co.nz/pages/i_16pr.html

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GeniusGoneWrong
04-14-2004, 07:57 PM
What really gives me the ****s with AP is sometimes (early 109's in particular) I might have it on, and then the plane goes into a dive as it get's near the airbase... all well and good, but there is no way i'm going to let the AP land for me so I disengage it... next thing I see is a message "Flaps Jammed"...

What goes up, always comes down........ IN FLAMES!

sithgod66
04-14-2004, 08:41 PM
The AP has done it to me in the 109's and Fw 190's. I use the Ap to land as I tend to do an impression of a kangaroo down the runway.

Cajun76
04-14-2004, 09:02 PM
Great link, michapma. There's several short movies with the I-16 and I-153 flying around at that site. Even a flyby of 5 I-16s and 3 I-153s. Beautiful birds, and they look deadly...

Good hunting,
Cajun76

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What if there were no hypothetical questions?

Mitlov47
04-14-2004, 11:13 PM
The I-16 is pretty fun. It's my favorite 1930s fighter, no doubt.

---------------------------

P-63C -- "Jackie's Strength"
P-47D-27 -- "The Happy Phantom"

Eagerly awaiting the SBD Dauntless and F6F Hellcat.

LEXX_Luthor
04-15-2004, 12:31 AM
the ultimate Tubbie plane, yes

__________________
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif Flyable Swedish "Gladiator" listed as J8A ...in Aces Expansion Pack


"You will still have FB , you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
:
"Damn.....Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

michapma
04-15-2004, 01:38 AM
Don't use the autopilot! Learn to land. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif It's one of the greatest parts of flying.

sithgod66, it sounds like you're coming in too fast. In the 109 you can extend gear below 300 kph, then flaps below 250 kph. Give the plane the time and distance to slow down. If you're in the pattern, go about 220 with gear and flaps down, and approach speed is only 180 kph.

I made an excellent landing the other night in an Emil, I should make it into a training track.

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The ongoing IL-2 User's Guide (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/) | Forgotten Skies (http://www.forgottenskies.com/)
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GazzaMataz
04-15-2004, 06:02 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I use the Ap to land as I tend to do an impression of a kangaroo down the runway.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I tend to got for the knock the wheels off completely do a belly landing instead - you get to survive but you don't get the headache caused by the bouncing LOL

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> it sounds like you're coming in too fast. In the 109 you can extend gear below 300 kph, then flaps below 250 kph. Give the plane the time and distance to slow down. If you're in the pattern, go about 220 with gear and flaps down, and approach speed is only 180 kph.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I thought you were supposed to put the flaps down first then the wheels? I also (from watching the training track in FB) thought you had to keep your airspeed up above 200kph to avoid stalling... I found that going a bit too much under 180 kph made the plane flip into a half spin and hit the deck.

michapma please make a training track, I did read the one on Mudmovers and that helped but I cannot remember what it said exactly and the site is now down http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Tickety boo...
Gazzamataz
http://www.gazzamataz.com

AlGroover
04-15-2004, 06:32 AM
Sometimes a survived landing can give you the most memorable moments. Yesterday, flying the P40 Leningrad campaign, a Stuka shot back at me, leaving me with no aeleron or elevator control. With only rudder (for yaw and roll) and flaps and throttle (for pitch), I got the thing home and made a pretty rough belly landing next to the runway. I think my best effort yet!

michapma
04-15-2004, 06:46 AM
Gear extension speed is always higher than flap extension speed. To my memory, I've never read a landing procedure from a flight manual that recommends extending flaps before gear. Definitely gear and then flaps.

The theory goes that you should go about 1.3 times higher than stall speed on approach. Stall speed is in this case meant in full landing configuration: flaps fully extended and gear out. To experiment, extend gear and flaps and then fly as slow as you can in level flight (not descending, climbing or turning). The minimum speed you can maintain before stalling is the stall speed in that configuration. Approach speed should be about 1.3 times greater than that. The flight manual I have for a 109-G2 gives an approach speed of 180 kph, and I've landed enough in 109s to know that it's a good speed. The faster you go the more trouble you'll have setting her down.

The idea is that you are descending at a constant rate toward the edge of the runway. This is called a glideslope, and the point on the ground toward which you are headed is called the aim point. About 2 seconds before you would actually hit the aim point, when you are something like less than 10 meters (can't recall exactly, but exactly doesn't matter), you flare. This is basically raising the nose of the aircraft to reduce the rate of descent to zero. This has two purposes: 1) to prevent you from actually flying into the aim point and 2) to burn off your excess speed until you are just above stall speed. At the same time you flare you should reduce your throttle to idle. If you time the flare right and execute it right you will end up just above the runway just above stall speed and flying level. From there you can just hold the stick back and gently settle onto the ground.

If you're going too fast, you might balloon, meaning come out of the flare into a climb and end up too high above the runway and running out of speed, which can result in a go-around or in the worst-case a stall and crash. Going too fast can also simply lead to taking too much runway to settle down, or else forcing the aircraft onto the runway when it still wants to fly.

Going too slow can cause the aircraft to stall in or even before the flare, but usually this is not the case as mostly (and especially in FB) too fast is the case.

An advantage of knowing this theory comes when you have battle damage and have lost lift in one or both wings. Actually in real life in a fighter you should probably ditch close to base, but let's say you want to land damaged. At altitude you can extend gear and flaps and find your new stall speed, then adjust your approach speed based on that. The stall speed will be higher than before because of the reduced lift in the wings. Weight also affects approach speeds in the same way. The heavier you are from a full fuel load or--CO forbid--payload, the faster you need to fly on approach. The lighter you are from having fired off all your ammo and burned all your fuel the slower you can approach.

There are already a few landing tracks here:
http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/training.htm

Nothing inspiring or even all that correct, but a start. The first two are from IL-2, the other is in an I-16! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

C!

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Thera
04-15-2004, 08:15 AM
Ground crews would usually bind the I16 flaps with bailing wire so they couldn't move. The game is pretty much the same... flaps are more deadly in the I16 than no flaps, especially for rookie pilots like the Soviets had during that era.

ELEM
04-15-2004, 09:09 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by michapma:
Gear extension speed is always higher than flap extension speed. To my memory, I've never read a landing procedure from a flight manual that recommends extending flaps before gear. Definitely gear and then flaps.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The opposite is in fact the case for all a/c that have multiple flap settings. The flaps are used in increments to reduce the airspeed to the safe gear extension speed. The gear is extended as late as possible after that safe speed is attained to maintain the best glide angle and reduce airframe buffet.
Here is an extract from a twin Cessna piloting article as an example:-

"The first notch of flaps comes out at 160 M.P.H. that will help you get down to the 140 M.P.H. gear extension speed. Although throwing out the landing gear will also bring your speed down, you should never use the landing gear as speed brakes or you'll be sorry."

The whole article can be read here:-

http://www.twincessna.org/gear.pdf

I wouldn't join any club that would have ME as member!

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Elite_Gizz
04-15-2004, 11:00 AM
I love this little plane, so many 109 pilots underestimate this plane and that can mean the difference between winning or loosing the fight!..

turns on a dime and excelerates like maclarean F1 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/icon_twisted.gif

Best Regards

Gizz
"CO" =Elite=

GazzaMataz
04-15-2004, 11:06 AM
Now I am completely bleeding confused... I just watched the training mission for landing in FB and it says lower flaps then gear, one right after the other...

I suppose whatever works best, you could probably land with no flaps at all - I think I did that accidentally once http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif (I think I was a bit pissed http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gifhttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif at the time but I done it!).

Tickety boo...
Gazzamataz
http://www.gazzamataz.com

Cajun76
04-15-2004, 11:16 AM
flaps, then gear. Ride a 777 and they do it the same. just be sure to lower your airspeed to a safe level before you deploy those things. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Good hunting,
Cajun76

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What if there were no hypothetical questions?

michapma
04-15-2004, 11:18 AM
ELEM, I appreciate what you're saying and I know that you're more knowledgeable than I am when it comes to aviation. However, I stand on what I said in terms of what I know about WWII aircraft. I have never to my recollection seen a landing procedure for a WWII warbird that prescribes lowering flaps before gear. I don't know about modern general aviation aircraft, and I can easily imagine that it varies from aircraft to aircraft.

To double-check this, I just looked at three pilot's notes that I have on hand: for the P-39Q-1, the P-40 and the Bf-109G-2. They all very unambiguously instruct the pilot to first lower gear below max gear extension speed, and once gear are locked to lower flaps. I will try to have a look around at some descriptions of pilots who fly these warbirds (such as in New Zealand, John Deakin, etc.) and see if I can find more info.

I used to extend flaps first just like in the IL-2 and FB training tracks. Now I roll the gear out first and then the flaps. I don't use the gear as speed brakes. They slow down the aircraft of course, but I don't lower them until at least below 300 kph.

GazzaMataz, don't be confused. In point of fact in FB it doesn't really matter which you do first. Just don't start with it when flying too fast. Problems with landing tend to come from mistakes and inexperience in the approach.

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TacticalSkirmsh
04-15-2004, 12:43 PM
I'll try to be brief mate and answer your questions or add to what has been said.

Unless you are prepared to really work with the compass, and/or obtain the map of the area and review it prior to take-off (like they did in real wars), consider using the map flight help for now.

I have occasionally navigated on my own, and yes there's an enjoyment in doing so, but my interest in this simulation lies elsewhere. I even at one time used the enemy map icons when I first started playing this game, but realized rather quickly that this option ruins the game (in my opinion) - so don't use it mate! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

With regards to AI. When all active planes must be given flight paths (waypoints). The last one is usually instruction on where to land.

If, however, the plane still has sufficient fuel and ammo, it is very likely to loiter in that waypoint area until fuel/ammo is spent. So, if you press Auto-Pilot, it will return to the original target area until fuel is depleted.

This can also be true even when the primary target has been completed, since a secondary or hidden target may yet to be obtained (though not necessary for a success mission).

The I-16 is a great turnfighter. Use wide view when taking off to help with visibility. Shifting your position in the cockpit is really helpful in this plane given its high seat in order to look behind.

Landing flaps ought to be used, especially since they provide much better visibility. I seldom use take-off flaps, except for certain German planes/bombers when I am running out of runway.

Regards

"I am not a good shot. Few of us are. To make up for this I hold my fire until I have a shot of less than 20 degree deflection and until I'm within 300 yards. Good discipline on this score can make up for a great deal." (Lt. Colonel John C. Meyer, USAAF)

:FI:TacticalS!

ELEM
04-15-2004, 01:27 PM
michapma:
I too apprieciate what you are saying, and if that is what the manual says then so be it. You cant argue with that. There is obviously going to be variations in how individual a/c are operated according to the manufacturer. But, flaps by design, are a speed reducing device and are used as such in all the of a/c that I have had experience with. I would like to hear of any more examples as the ones you have already mentioned.

I wouldn't join any club that would have ME as member!

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leadbaloon
04-15-2004, 03:36 PM
In his book "First Light" Geoffrey Wellum (Battle of Britain pilot) describes his landing procedure in a Harvard during his test for his pilots wings, "Right, select wheels down and fine pitch, come on bloody wheels let's have you. There they are, green lights. Check rich mixture, come on quickly, OK, now flaps, there we go."

Then after a dogfight in a Spitfire "Speed down to under 180 mph, OK, wheels down, select and wait. A reassuring clonk, clonk, and green down light on the panel; pitch fully fine and turn crosswind. Now turn in for the final approach, flaps down, a braking effect like a dozen men sitting on your wings, trim her out, speed 90 mph, that's nice."

GazzaMataz
04-16-2004, 02:33 AM
Does trimming the plane really make a difference? I must admit I have only dabbled with it but tend to avoid it a rely on the stick http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif

Tickety boo...
Gazzamataz
http://www.gazzamataz.com

michapma
04-16-2004, 03:35 AM
Trim absolutely makes a difference. Even a virtual pilot cannot hold his stick steady for long in an offset position. The real pilots had to put considerable more pressure on that stick and they used trim constantly.

Like I said, I'll keep my eyes open for the gear/flaps stuff. Haven't taken time to look yet.

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leadbaloon
04-16-2004, 03:58 AM
As Michampa says, trim does absolutely make a difference. The only drawback that you'll find is that the I-16 doesn't have it. It's one of the aircraft's many little features that frustrated me at first, but now I kind of like about it. If it did have trim it would be much easier to fly along level, so you wouldn't have to push forwards on the stick when flying at high speed and risk stalling the engine.

Try it in the Hurricane MK1 which also has a carburettor that cuts out under negative G. Load a QMB with the Hurricane and only hold the stick to prevent rolling, then hold Ctrl and tap the up arrow and watch your nose plunge down, keep hold of Ctrl then tap the down arrow and watch it come back up. Then keep playing around with it up and down until you're flying level without having to hold the stick. It will help you fly faster and make aiming easier as your aircraft will be more stable.

When I was still smoking it was handy for keeping the 'plane level while I rolled a smoke on my way out to the target too. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

leadbaloon
04-16-2004, 04:04 AM
By the way, If you're having problems reading the compass in the I-16 try pressing shift and F1 to change to the view and then you'll only have to pull into a gentle climb to bring it into view.