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abhartia
05-26-2004, 03:27 PM
here is the set up Quick mission -
5000m, 3:30pm, online island map, me in a 190A4 , ACE AI in Spit 5b 1941 model.
I can kill it by head on approach. Since I dont care for HO's I have been trying to beat it another way with no luck. I can kill the the later version spit 5b LF 1942 with much more ease. But spit 5b can seem to outclimb, out run and roll with the 190! (I can out dive it, but cant zoom back up with it not gainin on me!)

I cant seem to do anything to get on top of him and stay there.
If any can sustainably beat the AI (ACE) in spit 5b with a 190a4 please teach me how to do so! (withought HO-ing it)

abhartia
05-26-2004, 03:27 PM
here is the set up Quick mission -
5000m, 3:30pm, online island map, me in a 190A4 , ACE AI in Spit 5b 1941 model.
I can kill it by head on approach. Since I dont care for HO's I have been trying to beat it another way with no luck. I can kill the the later version spit 5b LF 1942 with much more ease. But spit 5b can seem to outclimb, out run and roll with the 190! (I can out dive it, but cant zoom back up with it not gainin on me!)

I cant seem to do anything to get on top of him and stay there.
If any can sustainably beat the AI (ACE) in spit 5b with a 190a4 please teach me how to do so! (withought HO-ing it)

abhartia
05-26-2004, 03:34 PM
I forgot to mention that I havent yet applied the new patch (2.01 ?).
btw I see the comp do these realy fast and small (tight radius) barrel rolls in series .. say about three of em where he also seems to side step in the direction of the roll! can any one do the same? I cant seem to do them withought loosing speed or alt or do em as fast and with such a small radius.

Oh one more stuff, I cant even seem to siccor the spit 5b 1941 model effectively in the 190a4 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif what could i be doing wrong? tried both low speed and (250-300km/h ) and high speed (500+) diving siccor, the spit had no prolems withit it at all.

VW-IceFire
05-26-2004, 04:00 PM
First get the patch which changes a few things for the Spitfire FM wise. Overall its not a huge change.

What you need to learn with the FW190 is to manage your energy supremely. The A-4 does climb faster...but at a higher speed...so while the Spitfire is going to climb at a slower speed the A-4 is going to loose alot of its climb at slower speeds.

Around 350 kph and even the A-4 is climbing fairly quickly.

Don't follow Spitfires into turns..if they turn roll in their direction and pull your plane, up, around, and over onto the target. Use lagg pursuits and always maintain a higher speed. In these situations the Vb has no chance to retaliate.

I'm currently reading Winged Combat by Arthur Bishop a WWII Spitfire pilot with No 401 Squadron. Every time he's seen a FW190 he was either chasing it or it dived on his squadmates. Do the same http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

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RCAF 412 Falcon Squadron - "Swift to Avenge"

abhartia
05-27-2004, 09:55 AM
I have installed the patch.. made no difference. Look I understand the basics of energy managment (though I didnt know about the better climb of 190 primaruly at high speeds)
. But the point here is can any one beet the spit 5b 1941 model (ACE) in a 190A4 wihtought HO-ing it in the Quick mission??

If I have alt advantage, ill shoot almost anything down with any plane. the point is how do kill a spit in 190 coming in co-alt withought risking HO

ucanfly
05-27-2004, 11:48 AM
Yea the trick is not to be in a hurry. DO a merge just a little bit off of a gun solution (so you don't get shot) and then keep trying to get behind him on subsequent merges (so that he has to waste E to chase you). You will gain E on him until you can get a good deflection or 6 oclock shot while you are faster and higher and he is low on Energy.

JtD
05-27-2004, 12:05 PM
This is my approach of dealing with any AI.

http://mitglied.lycos.de/jaytdee/190a4vsspitvb.trk

Go vertical.

Matz0r
05-27-2004, 02:45 PM
There's little chance to defeat any remotely talented spit pilot in a FW190 without altitude advantage. AI and n00bs can be tricked though: get speed, dodge the head on and wait for the flat break turn, zoom climb vertical, reverse and come back down on the from above. If he doesn't flat turn, run away. This works in any aircraft.

http://home.swipnet.se/hotascougar/pics/p51blamgreysmall.gif

abhartia
05-27-2004, 02:47 PM
thxs for the response fellows!

ucanfly:
ok here is the thing.. I merge as you suggested and keep flying straight and ahead. AFter a while say a on pulling away about 2.5-3k I reverse (which takes E and time in 190) by that time we are almost head to head. He gets on my tail on even closer. This goes on untill he kills me.. so could you eloborate more on this 'sunsequent merges' thing please. Cant figure out how to pull it of.
thxs

JtD: hey thxs for the track. My Internet browsing comp is different than the one I play il2 on. Will check it out and let you know. I could never get verticle to work, so I am interested to see how you do it.

ucanfly
05-27-2004, 03:45 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by abhartia:
thxs for the response fellows!

ucanfly:
ok here is the thing.. I merge as you suggested and keep flying straight and ahead. AFter a while say a on pulling away about 2.5-3k I reverse (which takes E and time in 190) by that time we are almost head to head. He gets on my tail on even closer. This goes on untill he kills me.. so could you eloborate more on this 'sunsequent merges' thing please. Cant figure out how to pull it of.
thxs...

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

abhartia:

I do not continue straight ahead after merge. What I do more or less is:

Before merge: Go into shallow dive while bandit is still far away , get to at least 500 - 600 kph or more but try not to lose too much altitude.

As bandit is getting closer point nose toward bandit but slightly away. Ideally bandit(s) will be tring to dive down while you are now in a slight hi speed climb.

As you merge pull a little more to avoid head on and either pull straight in to a vertical (without pulling too hard) or turn a little and then pull linto vertical. The idea is to zoom up while he is busy expending energy in a hard pull in the horizontal or going down while you aregoing up.

While the bandit is pulling hard trying to get his nose around just relax pull ( I some times let go of the stick to make sure) and let your plane climb and just roll to set up for next pass. Ideally he will be expending a lot more E than you and should be coming toward you at lower E.


Flip over on your back at the right time (timing is critical) to tell gravity pull your nose toward bandit. If angles are too steep or not right just lag pursue and make sure you don't let him get above you (i.e. pull up into zoom climb behind him if possible).

Keep doing this until his E is much less than yours and you can get a firing solution.

Once you gain E on him you can almost always stay behind but close to him at the merges, which makes it almost impossible for him to get a firing solution. Just avoid going down while he is going up at the merges unless you are really moving.

abhartia
05-28-2004, 03:59 PM
Matz0r- the funny thing is I can beat the spit 5b 1941 model with ease in a 109 f4, against AI offcourse. I thought the spit 5b scored over 190 f4s in real life. I think thats what the write up says in the game? Since the 190 was billed as 'the' plane that dominated the spit 5 I thought there must way that I could win from co-alt co energy starts.

ucanfly - thats good avise thxs will give it a shot. I have been too eager in my zoom climb and probably expended too much energy in pulling my nose up. In the dozen or so times that i got hozed by the AI I was trying things similar to what you suggest just not implemented right. I did win once or twice which is why asked, I knew it can be done.

I noticed one more thing, I cant seem to siscor the AI. Is it just me or does the AI roll too well?

El Turo
05-28-2004, 04:07 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by abhartia:
Matz0r- the funny thing is I can beat the spit 5b 1941 model with ease in a 109 f4, against AI offcourse. I thought the spit 5b scored over 190 f4s in real life. I think thats what the write up says in the game? Since the 190 was billed as 'the' plane that dominated the spit 5 I thought there must way that I could win from co-alt co energy starts.

ucanfly - thats good avise thxs will give it a shot. I have been too eager in my zoom climb and probably expended too much energy in pulling my nose up. In the dozen or so times that i got hozed by the AI I was trying things similar to what you suggest just not implemented right. I did win once or twice which is why asked, I knew it can be done.

I noticed one more thing, I cant seem to siscor the AI. Is it just me or does the AI roll too well?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Context. Context. CONTEXT!

Where did 99% of these engagements and subsequent comparisons take place? At high altitudes on bomber escort/interception. Just like when recollections describe a plane as "manueverable" they are speaking about roll and lightness of controls at high speed and high altitude.

If you're at 5km or lower, you're at medium to LOW altitude compared to the majority of WWII-era air-combat that occurred up at 8-12km.

Callsign "Turo" in IL2:FB & WWIIOL
______________________
This place
was once
a place
of worship
I thought,
reloading my rifle.

~V.

abhartia
05-28-2004, 05:03 PM
8-12km thats about 24k-36k feet. Wouldnt that have started with strategic bombing and 8th airforce? not in 1941 with british flights over germany? (remember this is about 1941 spit5b vs 190a4)

I dont know what altitudes those rhodeos(?) mostly took place at but my guess would be medium to low.

JG14_Josf
05-28-2004, 10:43 PM
Here (http://mysite.verizon.net/res0l0yx/sustained%20turn%20technique.htm) is another tactic that works.

That presentation was made for an earlier version of the game but I've checked this tactic on the Early SpitV in the current version with the FW190A-4 and it still works.

From Eastern Skies IL-2 can be found (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/tracks.htm) the following track file:

Energy game (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/downloads/tracks/Energy_game.zip)

The sustained turn technique is further explained on that track file.