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View Full Version : Prop sims vs. Jet sims.



nixon-fiend.
03-23-2004, 01:33 PM
Hum, guess i should've made this a poll..

But Jet sims.. Where's the appeal?

I love FB, i love the (especially online) gameplay. What I can't understand is how people can enjoy modern jet sims like lock-on/lomac.

For me, nothing beats the down and dirty dogfights.. The air filled with .50 cals.. dodging, swerving, fighting to come out on top.. Duels between aces, tactics, gunnery.. It's one hell of a trip.

But then I consider Jet sims.. Cruising along at unimaginable speeds, before the computer lets you know that the dot 50 miles away is a hostile dot.. You let rip a missile and forget about it.

And then there's the controls.. those which aren't automated by the computer must be so boggling, numerous and superfluous as to warrant bothering with.

The whole FB ww2 'man-machine in harmony' is replaced with 'man-in-flying-calculator'

But then i've only played a couple of jet sims.. Someone change my mind.

nixon-fiend.
03-23-2004, 01:33 PM
Hum, guess i should've made this a poll..

But Jet sims.. Where's the appeal?

I love FB, i love the (especially online) gameplay. What I can't understand is how people can enjoy modern jet sims like lock-on/lomac.

For me, nothing beats the down and dirty dogfights.. The air filled with .50 cals.. dodging, swerving, fighting to come out on top.. Duels between aces, tactics, gunnery.. It's one hell of a trip.

But then I consider Jet sims.. Cruising along at unimaginable speeds, before the computer lets you know that the dot 50 miles away is a hostile dot.. You let rip a missile and forget about it.

And then there's the controls.. those which aren't automated by the computer must be so boggling, numerous and superfluous as to warrant bothering with.

The whole FB ww2 'man-machine in harmony' is replaced with 'man-in-flying-calculator'

But then i've only played a couple of jet sims.. Someone change my mind.

BpGemini
03-23-2004, 01:35 PM
I like the action close (WWI-WWII).
The fire at blips on a radar stuff is boring.

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buggggggged
03-23-2004, 01:42 PM
WW1 sim would be the best for dog fights.

TooCooL34
03-23-2004, 01:46 PM
No one can change other's mind.
Fly what you like.
From WW1 to Modern, all flight sim has its merit and appeal.
I loved jet sim from the start but IL-2 hooked me for a long time.
If someone make a jet sim that is combination of Lomac gfx and falcon4 war, I will go back to jet. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

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Spinne_3.-JG51
03-23-2004, 02:20 PM
IMO, both have thier place amongst flight simmers. The advantages of a prop sim are that you can have furballs of fighters trying to shoot each other down (just try a busy HL room if you don't believe me). The advantage of a jet-sim is that there is more to the fighting than just being able to pull hard turns or knowing how to B&Z. You have to know the machine that you're flying, and it's weapon systems like the back of your hand. You've to know everything so well, that your responses become automatic. The minute you see a puff of smoke leaving the enemy aircraft, you start pulling hard turns to bleed the missile that the enemy has fired at you of all it's energy. You need to know how your radar works, and be able to operate it on automatic pilot, when your hands move across the keyboard without your having to tell them to do so. Furthermore, while a guy who knows how to properly fly one plane in AEP can fly any plane in AEP with some success, in LOMAC, you'd be hard put to do anything with an unfamiliar aircraft. So while LOMAC is more technically challenging, AEP is more fun, since it's flying by the seat-of-your-pants, literally. So depending on your mood, you can fly either sim. That is the beauty of choice. I'd rather have the choice, then just have one sim to fly. Just so I don't get flamed, I fly AEp most of the time(mostly online with my squad), and LOMAC just sometimes(always offline).

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Phoenix1911
03-23-2004, 02:22 PM
All good points, but I'm hooked on flying the Y-80 online, preferably when everyone else is in jets, the fights are fast and furious...

Nothing better than screaming along 20 feet above the ground weaving flak and cannon fire... its awesome http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

maxim26
03-23-2004, 02:27 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by nixon-fiend.:


But then I consider Jet sims.. Cruising along at unimaginable speeds, before the computer lets you know that the dot 50 miles away is a hostile dot.. You let rip a missile and forget about it.



And then there's the controls.. those which aren't automated by the computer must be so boggling, numerous and superfluous as to warrant bothering with.

The whole FB ww2 'man-machine in harmony' is replaced with 'man-in-flying-calculator'

But then i've only played a couple of jet sims.. Someone change my mind.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Dont take it wrong but you know nothing about modern air combat. If you think thet radar works miracles and it operates automaticaly, you are wrong. You think why there are such schools like Top Gun, where pilots learn dogfighting.

Radar with all its advantages has several big disadvantages. The biggest is that when your radar is on and you are trying to lock sumbody, you are emiting signals, thet can be detected at 2 -3 times bigger distances then the radar can detect the object itsealf. So belive me, when "the computer lets you know that the dot at 50 miles away is hostile dot" thet hoslike dot will be knowing about you for enough time to lock you on his radar or make avaiding monuvers. Another thing thet to launch missile the target has to be in missile envelope. You can't shoot missile at the target which is behind you. So pilot has to use his skills and energy of a/c to put the target at right position. Sounds vary similar to props, does it?

Controlls... Maaan. Such a/c as F/18, F/15, Mig29, Su27 are not fly by wire a/c. It means that rouls are pletty much the same as for props. Unexperienced pilot can stall and spin a/c.

So, my advice, download Lock-On demo and try to shoot down the Mirage. I bet you will do it aproximately at 10=th attempt.

If you want to do it faster, use right tactics. Dont try to turn with it. Mirage is much better turner than Mig29. Dont pull high Gs and max angle of attack - you will bleed all you energy. Use the better acceleration of the Mig and extend, avaiding missiles. Than make imelmann lock on and shoot 2 heat missiles.

Damn, many points sounds exectly like prop dogfight!

WalterNowi
03-23-2004, 02:48 PM
Flying jets in sims is not that easy. Try landing the Su-33 on the carrier deck in zero-zero weathering using instruments only. I have "fused" with the deck many times http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif. Unlike props, the jet engines do not respond instantaneously. They need time to spoof up. You really need to think ahead, especially during instrument landing. Just my 2 cent.

Nowi

BaldieJr
03-23-2004, 02:53 PM
A few weeks ago I was anti-jet-sims.

Now I've changed my mind. I like lomac.

<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">
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maxim26
03-23-2004, 02:58 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BaldieJr:
A few weeks ago I was anti-jet-sims.

Now I've changed my mind. I like lomac.

<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">
______ _____
(, / ) /) /) , (, /
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</pre><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

wlcome to the club...

By the way flying lomac is not an obsticle for me to enjoy FB. Now after AEP release i fly mostly FB though, studding new a/c.

WalterNowi
03-23-2004, 03:07 PM
Both FB and LOMAC are wonderful sims. We "sim freaks" are certainly blessed right now. Enjoy it while it last http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

Nowi

nixon-fiend.
03-23-2004, 03:17 PM
well, maxim.. you make it sound more exciting already..

But how much is pure flying enjoyment and how much is juggling controls??

maxim26
03-23-2004, 03:26 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by nixon-fiend.:
well, maxim.. you make it sound more exciting already..

But how much is pure flying enjoyment and how much is juggling controls??<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's difficult to explain flight model. But I think its very realistic.

Just try demo and see by yourself. If your hardware will be able to handle it you can give it a try.

Actualy I didn't know much about jets myself until I tryied Lomac and was forced to learn somthing to be able to shoot at leas AI down.

heywooood
03-23-2004, 03:41 PM
Personally - I like the idea of a Korean sim
from Maddox... We've got the P80 all we need now is a Mig 15 - maybe an eventual F86 and then a Mig 17 - an Able Dog oohhhh now thats a plane with serious loadout. And carrier ops with
Panthers and Corsairs and ldfplpfoidulp
The person that was typing this has had a seizure - and will be un-able to breath for a few more minutes - please stand by...

El Turo
03-23-2004, 03:53 PM
I played the HELL out of Mig Alley and the dynamic campaign. I really wish that IL2FB had a campaign option like that.

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

As for Jets vs. Props.. I don't get many jollies from having to memorize a 32 button combination keypress just to tell the pilot to scratch himself.

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BaldieJr
03-23-2004, 03:57 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by nixon-fiend.:
well, maxim.. you make it sound more exciting already..

But how much is pure flying enjoyment and how much is juggling controls??<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Starting out, its 100% control juggling. I wont lie: i'm learning the a10 systems S L O W L Y.

But, after watching ironhands tutorials, I can totally understand the attraction to jet sims now.

Its fun in a different kind of way.

<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">
______ _____
(, / ) /) /) , (, /
/---( _ // _(/ _ / __ ,""""]
+----/ ____)(_(_(/_(_(__(__(/____/__/ (__--------,' /---+
| / ( / ,' NR / |
|(_/ ..-""``"'-._ (_/ __,' 42 _/ |
+-.-"" "-..,____________/7,.--"" __]-----+

</pre>

ronsterb26
03-23-2004, 04:02 PM
Popping tanks (ground vehicles) in the A-10
in LOMAC is pretty dang fun. The A-10 canon
is a trip!

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Magister__Ludi
03-23-2004, 04:19 PM
You'll feel like home in lomac community, instead of FM/DM hot topics you'll debate the avionics biases - or at least until recently, moderators there do not allow avionics topics anymore http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I was joking, give lomac a try http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

essemm
03-23-2004, 04:30 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by nixon-fiend.:
Hum, guess i should've made this a poll..

But Jet sims.. Where's the appeal?

I love FB, i love the (especially online) gameplay. What I can't understand is how people can enjoy modern jet sims like lock-on/lomac.

For me, nothing beats the down and dirty dogfights.. The air filled with .50 cals.. dodging, swerving, fighting to come out on top.. Duels between aces, tactics, gunnery.. It's one hell of a trip.

But then I consider Jet sims.. Cruising along at unimaginable speeds, before the computer lets you know that the dot 50 miles away is a hostile dot.. You let rip a missile and forget about it.

And then there's the controls.. those which aren't automated by the computer must be so boggling, numerous and superfluous as to warrant bothering with.

The whole FB ww2 'man-machine in harmony' is replaced with 'man-in-flying-calculator'

But then i've only played a couple of jet sims.. Someone change my mind.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am glad you like WWII sims. So do I. I also love modern jet sims, such as LOMAC and Falcon 4.0. Each has it's good things, and each has it's bad. I like WWII sims because they are just plain old fun. I love watching a Me109 fall towards the earth trailing a huge tail of fire and smoke. That being said, I also enjoy lining up on a column of tanks and letting loose a menacing volley of 30mm depleted uranium shells...or twisting and turning in a F15 to angle for a heater shot...or Letting loose on a column of German Panzers with my fancy new P38...or firing a radar shot at an F18 from my uber-cool SU27. I love it all. I don;t think I hold one in higher esteem than the other. That being said, I think that IL2FB is a FAR superior product to LOMAC. Hopefully a few patches (and a computer upgrade) will bring the two closer together. They share my hardrive, but right now, IL2 gets ALL of my time.

Good post. I hope it stays out of the gutter.

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maxim26
03-23-2004, 06:00 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BaldieJr:
[Starting out, its 100% control juggling. I wont lie: i'm learning the a10 systems S L O W L Y.

But, after watching ironhands tutorials, I can totally understand the attraction to jet sims now.

Its fun in a different kind of way.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Talking about A10. Its really strange, but A10's primary weapon is its awsome cannon. It is so in real life and in the game as well. Yes, TV guided missiles are great. But you can cary only limited amount of them. So the experience of flying A10 in this aspect is not that different from flying IL-2. Of cause the big rate of fire (up to 1500 round per minute) and electronics, wich calculates the lead, makes aiming much easear. If you dont like thet, try Su-25 and this is were real challange is.

TheAirMarshal
03-23-2004, 06:26 PM
I'm getting Silent Hunter 3.

DONB3397
03-23-2004, 07:57 PM
I wonder if this is 'prop vs. jet sims,' or something else. I prefer prop sims because of a long time personal interest, even passion, for WWII events and history. I know the pilots, the units they belonged to, the campaigns they fought...and often imagine that the circumstances in my virtual combat are a little like a real battle I may have read about. Maybe it seems more real that way.

Jets sims, on the other hand, are fascinating; but for me the technology and weaponry provide a kind of out-of-control feeling. I need radar to find the enemy, and long distance weapons to reach him. The world is quiet, remote, surreal. When the enemy finds me first, a disconnected woman's voice tells me I'm about to die.

Can I turn into this guy? Can I jink and fool the missile like I can a pilot? If I get hit, will there be a chance to nurse my crippled a/c back through great skill and patience? Not bl--dy likely!

I like FB, and I'm hanging out here a while.

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darkhorizon11
03-23-2004, 11:20 PM
We're all entitled to our own opinion and I respect yours.

In defense of Jet simulators...
Yes arcade style jet sims get dull I think most will agree with me there.
I've never played Lomac...but I've spent a long time on Falcon 4.0 and lemme tell you. I WISH IT WAS THAT SIMPLE. Although it is possible to identify targets up to 300 miles away in some aircraft, these new capabilities don't make it any easier. Telling friendlys and enemys apart in a large congested battlefield can be hard, even with AWACS help.
Most modern combat pilots are required to visually identify their targets before engaging, so guess what? Although the age of machine guns and jinking to avoid your enemy is dead. Dogfighting isn't, and trust me all jet pilots are required to brush up on their aircraft identification every now and then. Although real aircraft buffs consider the flick Top Gun to be an unrealistic cowboy style depiction, after a second look, its not totally. The training facility Top Gun did exist (until it was closed because of budget cuts) and pilots trained exclusively in close range combat.
If you also consider introduction of stealth aircraft (the Chinese are working on a couple as we speak) and the fact that even the best missles are only 75% accurate you'll realize that necessity of pilot skill vastly exceeds the need for aircraft capabilities. Theres still much potential for flight simulators portraying modern combat, the era of fighter aces is far from over! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Bearcat99
03-23-2004, 11:27 PM
I just like the up close and personal touch of the props.

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Tully__
03-24-2004, 03:40 AM
The techno junky in me likes jet sims. The romanticist and the andrenalin junky in me like prop sims. 2:1 victory for prop sims so I hardly ever fly jets http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

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609IAP_Recon
03-24-2004, 05:16 AM
when Oleg puts out the korean war sim, that will be fun I think.

I found Lomac to be missing alot in terms of radar and missiles. Flight and graphics are excellent though! It's even harder to see aircraft in lomac than in fb. I read a post for lomac's next patch that radar and missiles will be given alot of attention.

I personally still like prop sims best though.

Salute!

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DeerHunterUK
03-24-2004, 05:33 AM
I do find it remarkably funny how many people still believe that all jet fighter sims are push the button to kill beyond visual range affairs. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/351.gif
2 games for you chaps;
MiG Alley and Strike Fighters Project 1.
If you have to rely on your missiles in SFP1, you're a dead ducky.

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KaiserB_uk
03-24-2004, 06:11 AM
Nixon - Lots of good points here, but as for the 'feeling of flight', the combination of stunning scenery and lighting effects (with advanced haze on) with a truly magnificent flight model make lomac the most immersive sim I've ever flown, esp now I've got TrackIR.

I love FB and enjoy dogfighting and aerobatic flying, but for a quick razz round the sky I'll jump into my Mig29 everytime.

And boy is radar tricky! The hard part is not learning to lock and fire, but to avoid the other guy's missiles before (as mentioned in an earlier post) using the basic rules of acm to get position on your opponent. In FB you have the 'security' of knowing the other guy can't hit you if he isn't facing you - try similar tactics against a Su27 with a helmet mounted sight!


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Breeze147
03-24-2004, 06:30 AM
I am totally engrossed at the moment in IL-2. It would take years of dedication to get through all of the possible material. I'm more of a mudmover and I have found that finding a tank on the first pass is damn hard. And then theres that flak to dodge and those pesky 109's coming at you. I love it.

Having said that it is also fun to find a column of tanks on your a/g radar, get into range and let loose with some Mavericks and guide them in to the target. The avionics are fascinating, at least to me. And, as previously stated, unless the opponent is totally asleep at the wheel, odds are you'll miss from BVR.

A vignette from Janes F/A-18. In one of the stock missions, your to raid a rebel Soviet commanders air base. It is heavily defended by SAMs, AAA and all manner of SU-27's are in the air. I send my flight off to intercept the SU's. I order my wingie to attack the SAM's. I attempt to go in for the kill with some Mavericks. Bear in mind, it's taken 20 or so attempts to get all of these tactics down. I get close enough to get off a killer shot, but I get nicked by AAA going past the airfield. My wingie calls out for help. I looked behind and see he has an enemy right on him. Instantaneously, without pausing to think about it, I switch to Air to Air Master Mode. I make a violent turning climb to the right. For one split second I get a shoot cue on the enemy and let loose with a heater. Right up his frickin' tail pipe! I hit the weeds and gather up the flight and head for home.

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huggy87
03-24-2004, 11:55 AM
I can't really speak for jet sims since I don't own any. However, I imagine for a jet sim to be accurate it must be incredibly complex and challenging. Modern aircraft and tactics are incredibly complex. It takes years and years to become a competent fighter pilot. The aircraft performance is eye-watering, there are a myriad of systems constantly providing input to you, you need to be able to employ about 2 dozen different weapons, and that is before you consider formation flying, tactics, fuel management, or landing on the ship afterwards.

I've dedicated my whole adult life to this craft and I still learn something new every flight. I can't imagine, that unless you are incredibly dedicated, it would be much fun on a computer.

StrikeBR_1967
01-16-2018, 11:55 AM
Thats why Crimson Skies was so loved in their times...you had nothing but bullets, rockets and your skills to ace the skies.

Check it out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=49laxMeLS2o