Mounting Evidence | Forums

**RedTerex** · 05-20-2004, 11:30 PM

no serious offence intended but I am also a Raven Shield Rainbow 6-3 player. Yes thats right the heavily bugged and super heavily patched game....by Ubi-soft.
And when I heard that nUbi-Soft was holding the reigns for SH3 as well my heart sank faster than a crash dive at flank speed!

( JUST read that a person by the name of 'Kejotikk' already used a similar analogy in another post well before this one. I didnt copy it and have just inserted this note here back into my post..just proves that we all think the same. )

Sorry nUbi-Soft but my expectations wont surface past periscope depth !

But..........
You CAN prove us all wrong..you still have time to listen to us and make the right moves to improve what Could and Should be a great game after all the time and effort that the Dev team has put into it.

RedTerex

[This message was edited by RedTerex on Thu May 20 2004 at 11:40 PM.]

[This message was edited by RedTerex on Thu May 20 2004 at 11:41 PM.]

**Redwine** · 05-21-2004, 08:46 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by RedTerex:

And when I heard that nUbi-Soft was holding the reigns for SH3 as well my heart sank faster than a crash dive at flank speed!

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I Feel the same, I am a "little bit" tired of Ubi Soft..........

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**Redwine** · 05-21-2004, 08:57 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by HeibgesU999:

i think they do need to make the depthcharge attacks a little more deadly than the historical figures.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Interesting point of view........

Why for ?

Is good to know another opinion........

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by HeibgesU999:

i never get killed by the supposed "super accurate dc" attacks in SH2, but i know that if I don't take the proper defensive countermeasures they can easily get me.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Are you user of any PM Patch ?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by HeibgesU999:
although it might be more "realistic" to go with historical numbers, if you know there is almost no chance of you being killed, it is much less historically "authentic".<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry I can not understand it due ti my bad englis.........

Regards, Red.

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**Egan2.0** · 05-21-2004, 10:26 AM

RedTerex:
Yup, your right. Ubi has a golden opportunity here to make a landmark game. I for one REALLY want it to work out and be the best sum SIM ever.

One of the major problems I see it is that, with a possible september release date, all the major features of this game are locked in and won't be changed just because they have got the community worried.

It could go two ways, really. It could either be the game of our dreams or a world class example of getting it wrong. Its about time we got a worhty successor to SH1 and AOD. Will this game be it? Impossible to say......

**altstiff** · 05-21-2004, 09:14 PM

I really would prefere a dynamic campaign system but what is most important to me is unscripted AI. They were VERY predictable in both previous SH games.

See you in the fence....

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**RedTerex** · 05-21-2004, 10:43 PM

I just hope as many of you are already doing so that along with great graphics, sound and it has to be said 'general' gist and the amount of hard work put into this game by the Devs that this Sub Sim is not sunk at sea with all hands lost. for the sake of a simple Dynamic Campaign (Please read the posts nUbi-soft

all the feedback is right here !)

For it would be a crying shame to lose what I can only imagine would be the planets best SubSim ever created for PC for the sake of ignoring the customer/player/Submarine lovers practical advices and wishes..unbeleivable !

I mean they have it all there, the screenies look absolutely super, the effects and 3d modelling looks...well...a subsim fans dream.
but will it ALL be lost by shortsightedness as it can be...so easily.

And if it can be lost so easily then it can be rectified so easily before disaster stikes.

Lets hope they listen, as it will be a long time before another equal comes out and Im not getting any younger.

regards

RedTerex

**HeibgesU999** · 05-22-2004, 10:29 AM

i mean that if you know that you can't be killed once you dive below a certain depth, a lot of the tension is removed from the game.

that is about the only thing i didn't like about sh1. once you got below 300ft you were safe. you could now evade 6 destroyers at 64x time compression. its less scary.

Didn't the Allies have a rather limited depthsettings on the depthcharges compared to how deep a uboat could dive?

i guess you have to make a choice about what you would rather see simulated in this instance. its a choice between simulating historical algorithmic depthcharge accuraracy tables and simulating fear.

from the time the soundman announces depthcharge in the water, you come to flank speed and order radical changes in course and depth, but, for the most part....you can only wait.

imho, the fear factor is pretty important

but this is not to say i don't think the ubersurface sensor of escorts doesn't need some serious curtailing. i want to be able to do night surface attacks as much as the next guy.

but once forced to submerge, or detected while submerge, i am the hunted and not the hunter.

i takes about an hour per dd (an you better be in real time) to evade escorts in sh2. (1 hr for 1dd, 2hrs for 2 dds.

**SailorSteve** · 05-22-2004, 12:10 PM

British depth charges could originally be set for any depth up to 300ft (91m). By 1943 they could be set for depths up to 1000ft (305m).

U.S. depth charges: early war standard Mk 7 could be set for any depth from 30 to 300ft (9-91m). The Mod 1 version entered service in August 1942; depth increased to 600ft (183m)
Mk 8: Magnetic and hydrostatic pistol. Magnetic pistol would set off the charge automatically if within 25ft (7.5m) of the sub. Hydrostatic pistol good to 500ft (152m). Spring 1943.
Mk 9, also issued in early 1943 could be set to 600ft, later modified to 1000ft.

Japanese depth charges:
Type 95: depth settings 30m (98ft), 60m (197ft) and 90m (295ft) only, nothing in between.
Type 2 (1942): depth settings as above with increases to 120m (394ft) and 145m (476ft).
The Japanese tended to assume that no submarine would be operating below 200 feet. They started changing this assumption in mid-1943.

Information from Naval Weapons of World War Two by John Campbell.

All this is to say that a U.S. sub being safe below 300 feet was not unusual, at least early in the war.

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**Redwine** · 05-22-2004, 01:36 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by HeibgesU999:
i mean that if you know that you can't be killed once you dive below a certain depth, a lot of the tension is removed from the game.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well...... OK, I understand this point of view, but may be due my bad english...... I never talked about the maximun depth set for depth charges.......

Of course, this point splained by you is a good point.......

The problem in SH2 was it has so accurate DDs sonars........ and so big Depth Charges Lethal Radius....... plus depth charges has so big damage points level, and the subs has hull resistence based on its tonnage, wich is unreal, and make some small subs so vulnerable.....

I soupose this was taked in account when they talk about "Subs and DDs balanced".

Due to that my comment to Egan2.0 above........

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by HeibgesU999:
that is about the only thing i didn't like about sh1. once you got below 300ft you were safe. you could now evade 6 destroyers at 64x time compression. its less scary.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well I am agree with you about that but.......

What about reality ?

It is not good to know a trick to survive, but if it is not a trick, if it was a real advantage in some years of the war...... ?

I was at the side of to simulate the reality, I prefer the sim as near of reality as posible.......

Souposing this was a real advantage of american sub in the pacific war......... well, you can not stay under 300m for ever...... you will be enforced to surface in few hours, and you will be hunted............

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by HeibgesU999:
Didn't the Allies have a rather limited depthsettings on the depthcharges compared to how deep a uboat could dive?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I soupose yes........ as Sailor Steve wrotte englands rise up settings in their depth charges at 305 m at 1943........

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by HeibgesU999:
i guess you have to make a choice about what you would rather see simulated in this instance. its a choice between simulating historical algorithmic depthcharge accuraracy tables and simulating fear.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I respect your opinion, but I prefer see simulated the real capabilities of DDs and Subs year by year.....

What think you if i said........

"Dangerous Waters....... with active acoustics torps ? Nahhh....... too easy, just only straight ahead torps like in WW1 and WW2, to make the game more interesting.........."

Just it is not real...........

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by HeibgesU999:
from the time the soundman announces depthcharge in the water, you come to flank speed and order radical changes in course and depth, but, for the most part....you can only wait.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I do not believe it can be a help, sonar man can announces depoth charges in the water but he do not know if they was released above you, at one side or another..... or at front......

Attempt to evade depth charges afeter sonar man announce is matter of good luck only.......

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by HeibgesU999:
imho, the fear factor is pretty important<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agree with you..........

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by HeibgesU999:
but this is not to say i don't think the ubersurface sensor of escorts doesn't need some serious curtailing. i want to be able to do night surface attacks as much as the next guy.

but once forced to submerge, or detected while submerge, i am the hunted and not the hunter.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agree with you, the surprise is the best weapon of the sub kapitan....... after be discovered.... he is only a prey.......

those romantics hollywood films showing those hard battles between a Dd and a Sub.......mmmhhh.

I soupose was some Kapitans so agresives, but many of them do not survive the war......

Some time I read about words of some Kapitan, I do not remember who, may be Topp......

He said, he wait for a good oportunity, if the oportunity was there but it put the sub in a too high risk, he forget it and wait for a better situation..........

When they was discovered, the only objective was to scape, not to fight against the Dds..........

I soupose this kind of kapitans with "cold brain" was those who survive the war and those who more tonnes sunks.........

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by HeibgesU999:
i takes about an hour per dd (an you better be in real time) to evade escorts in sh2. (1 hr for 1dd, 2hrs for 2 dds.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Here an interesting point..........

I want the game simulates reality capabilities of Dds and Subs........

But it must to simulate real behaviors too, there are many histories about DDs hunting sub by a complete day, and more....... and sub forced to surface by loss of air...........

DDs capabiliies to kill a sub was so low in real life..........

But we must not to be able to shake them easy in few time as one hour in example.........

I soupose the better way is to make the sim as near to reality as posible.........

And put as in SH2, a selection of precent of survability or a slider.........

Increasing or reducing the ability to survive and DDs capabilities according user pleasure........more easy than reality or more hard than reality.......

But at middle of the slider...... I want the reality simulated..........

A pleasure to share opinions with you, regards, Red.

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The Ancient History of the Submarine
"Subgenesis"

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**HeibgesU999** · 05-22-2004, 01:53 PM

the thing is, the germans did not know the exact capabilites of allied depthcharges.

so if the depthcharges have "historic" values, you have, as a player, critical information that a kalue never had, the exact depth he could dive below to be safe from allied depthcharges.

this piece of information is so crucial, that allowing the player to have it changes the game much more than just saying that all dcs can be dropped to a depth of 1000ft.

and if they every make destroyercommand2, you would never get a destroyer to play a muliplayer game before 1943 if they could only drop their dcs to 550ft.

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