Authenticity, Believability and Realism - Doing 'Action' right | Forums

[shobhit7777777]

Good post.

It was indeed the little things. One cannot create immersion without giving the player room and breathing space for his own exploration of the game world. I was into MGS before SC. I thought SC would be incredibly boring, too realistic and basically a non-adventure. But I was wrong, it was full of mood and it gave me room to explore this gloomy world of Sam Fisher myself and this aspect of obeservant exploration was empowered by small details such as visual clues in the world such as the dead guy in the T' bilisi police station with bullet holes in his thighs ; THAT told me something about the regime of Nikoladze...and because I only saw the result of this, not the actual torture, it left a lot of room for my own IMAGINATION...which is often much stronger than SEEING the monster.

An EXCELLENT example of setting the tone and the atmosphere. I remember that vividly....a result of my exploration and data stick hunting. THESE are the kind of moments that SCB needs to recreate

@Noodlenerd

I agree wholeheartedly.

The gameplay looks ok. Yes, only ok, the lack of true variable speed is killing this game for me (stalking is the funniest part of this game and variable speed means everything in that regard), and the bash x to break free of dog is silly.

However, I do agree with you that the narrative is what ruins this game, or at least makes it less than what it could be. When you were going to interrogate jadid why beat him up? He should just bag him and call for extraction. Simple. The grab in SAR felt right, when you kidnapped the CIA mole for interrogation. THAT was believable.

The drone sequence, unoriginal, uninspiring, boring. The Jadid cutscene, just irritating. What is the point of ghosting all the way up to that point just to act like a thug when reaching the objective?

And why would the enemy use mortars and stuff to blow up their leader, did they know he was dead? and how did they find out about Sam? none of this makes sense. Why didn't they simply storm the room?

I am optimistic when it comes to the gameplay, but the narrative detracts from the whole experience.

Agree 100%

I see SCB doing great things from a gameplay perspective but shooting all the goodwill earned via the same gameplay with unimaginative scripted sequences or even optional Action based supports.
your last line sums it up well.



@Andre

They need to address these issues, that's why Deniable Ops is percieved very positively by the community because it's narrative (while very small) doesn't let you feel wrong when you killed all enemies stealthy.

EXACTLY!!

That is why we loved D-ops. The SP campaign shat on it's own gameplay loop several times with questionable decisions regarding the mission design! And that directly affected how the fans percieved the gameplay as well.

[shobhit7777777]

Whoa! this thread has ballooned!

''I have a hard time believing in the serious gruffness of the Ghosts when they just took down an Mi-24 with a THERMOBARIC bomb (again within 100 feet)....it makes the game a laughable poser.''

What do you expect them to use? Harsh language? I don't know if you noticed but they weren't actually carrying anything to take it down. An airstrike was the only choice they had. It detonated above the ground, completely obliterating anyone outside of the warehouse. The Ghosts were inside it, behind cover. I don't see how it's hard to believe the Ghosts aren't tough. Even the most toughest Navy SEAL wouldn't be completely against using an airstrike if the situation called for one.

Glad you asked that question. I'll answer it with a question of my own.

Who put the Ghosts in that position in the first place?

That entire fiasco could've been avoided and at the same time you could've had the thermobaric strike, keeping the realism intact. I can assure you Rooster...a thermobaric bomb will KILL you regardless of the fact that you're in cover. You would die of asphyxiation pre-blast, incineration during the blast and the pressure wave post blast. These things were built to shatter underground complexes and are the second most destructive weapons after NUKES!
I would've been happy if they'd just let a couple of F-18s sweep in and take out the Hinds.
And how would you justify the Hind's cannon's being hindered by a concrete block?
No
This was a case of horrendous mission design and a poor choice of scripted event in an effort to bring some excitement at the cost of authenticity and immersion.

@ Shobhit

Here I'll point to Deus Ex HR, Metal Gear Solid and Resident Evil 4 (they're many others of course, like vintage Splinter Cell)
These games do have cut scenes (A LOT in one case). They have scripted sequences. Set pieces, as it were.
But what they do not have is an immersion shattering "Developer Cannon"
Leon, Snake and Adam have a very distinct style and personality, and in the case of the latter two. very varying styles of gameplay, BUT the game never tells you which one it thinks you should use, or assume which style you were using. (MGS does nag you to use stealth via the codec, but if you ignore it, the game feels perfectly natural)
Something else about those games. They're regarded as some of, if not the best games of their genre, and/or simply the best games ever made.
And In no small part due to what I've been saying. A game that treats its player's style with respect is a game that a player will fall in love with.
There is no "Developer Cannon"

Now look back at Splinter Cell Conviction, and by the looks of things, Splinter Cell Blacklist.
The "DevCan" in SCC is: Sam is angry, ruthless, murderous, brutal and otherwise tactically and realistically re-tarded... he also fights a Helicopter and blows up a building.
Can you play the game stealth? (kinda... sorta, it's not fun, it's weak, it's... no, not really... you can't, BUT for arguments sake) Yes
(in manner of speaking) Does the game play itself stealth? (allow me to quote myself) "Sam is angry, ruthless, murderous, brutal and otherwise tactically and realistically re-tarded... he also fights a Helicopter and blows up a building."

Do you see the problem?
Devcan destroys immersion and player decision, and subsequently makes the game an affection failure. Heck, just look at D-Ops from Conviction. Its success was headed by a seamless immersion. You're never thrown out of the drivers seat and forces to be subject to the next "plot twist" *cough ACTION SEQUENCE
Seriously. 9 our of 10 pieces of plot important information (in SCC) was retrieved via a rigid interrogation. In effect, showing us just how out of [our] control Sam really was.
What's the point on having stealthy variety if the story shrugs if off and favors a super hero-esque protagonist who orders missile strikes twenty feet from his 20?

Use the story to enhance player's experiences; not abuse them with devcan.

QFT! and I like the term "DevCan"...its part of forum lexicon now!

yup, and the thing is SC always had them, it's own unique subtle action that enforced intense situation that increase immersion rather than cinematic experience which is in every game.

Also these situations need to still give player the freedom, like the SF in SAR where Grim cut the power, you had the choice, you could escape stealthily, or take them out, it is up to you, don't force something on me.

Exactly!!
Keep the action sequences but Splinterfy them!

@Andre

That was a fantastic post. THAT is how developers should approach narrative

I have passed this on guys!

Great thread

We really appreciate it thanks!

[sgg847]

^ The best way to destroy gameplay is to have exactly these kind of things you have seen in the demo. Scripted sequences which are over top, don't make sense and make your Stealth effort worthless.

I say - YES, you say - no
Who is right? Do you have a proof?
And who said that I am going to play in stealth? stealth is the last and the last thing I do in games.

Gameplay has to be supported by level design, story and narrative.

Whats wrong with Blacklist in that case?

[Andre202]

I say - YES, you say - no
Who is right? Do you have a proof?
And who said that I am going to play in stealth? stealth is the last and the last thing I do in games.

Noone said that, but Splinter Cell is a Stealth/Action game. Not an Action game. So it has to support it's Stealth Gameplay.

Whats wrong with Blacklist in that case?

As said the narrative, scripted sequences which don't make any sense, not even to someone who plays it the Action way.

[shobhit7777777]

I say - YES, you say - no
Who is right? Do you have a proof?
And who said that I am going to play in stealth? stealth is the last and the last thing I do in games.

Whats wrong with Blacklist in that case?

Fair enough....but you need to realize that Andre is not talking about Blacklist particularly...he is simply concerned and was making stating his general opinion.

Also, a question.

You like action...so in the middle of an intense firefight you are suddenly forced to drop all weapons and evade the enemy without raising the alarm...will that forced situation be enjoyed by you..especially since you love action?
Will a forced scripted event, contrary to your playstyle make the experience more immersive?
Nyet, Da?

[sgg847]

Noone said that, but Splinter Cell is a Stealth/Action game. Not an Action game. So it has to support it's Stealth Gameplay.

Action/Stealth game means 1) Action 2) Stealth 3) Action/Stealth
So, if I stealthy kill someone in a stealth way then it will be Action or Action/Stealth....?

As said the narrative, scripted sequences which don't make any sense, not even to someone who plays it the Action way.

You say so, not me.

Fair enough....but you need to realize that Andre is not talking about Blacklist particularly...he is simply concerned and was making stating his general opinion.

It is Blacklist forum.

Also, a question.
You like action...so in the middle of an intense firefight you are suddenly forced to drop all weapons and evade the enemy without raising the alarm...will that forced situation be enjoyed by you..especially since you love action?
Will a forced scripted event, contrary to your playstyle make the experience more immersive?
Nyet, Da?

It is not problem for me. Moreover it helps to diversify the same gameplay.

[kalle90]

Didn't we already go through this when first info about Conviction came, and when the game was released?

The devs might acknowledge and support some of these arguments but the fact is that their vision of Splinter Cell is different. And 95% (made up guess) of userbase doesn't care about authenticity when they get to shoot bad guys with drones and throw enemies 15 yards.

[shobhit7777777]

Alternative Action Sequences:

I think it is only fair that we post our ideas of how the whole "Action" option should've gone down...Splinter Cell style. We've made our concerns known, I think it is time for some actual constructive feedback.

Here's my version of a 'Splinter Cell' action sequence in Blacklist:

Situation: Jadid is dead, Sam needs to exfil fast and the village is being surrounded by enemy forces...making a beeline for the house Sam is in. Before he can extract he needs to take out several AAA sites nested along the village.

Support: The Paladin on standby with AGM-154 JSOWs (Massive smart bombs that can glide over 100Kms) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AGM-154...tandoff_Weapon

Gameplay: The Player is then left inside that very stealth sandbox and launching the JSOW's is completely up to him. To fire off a JSOW..the player has to laser designate the AAA sites...requiring LOS.
The fun part is that the enemy troops are hunting him. The player needs to destroy the AAAs and at the same time has to deal with the troops...the order in which the player deals with the AAA is upto the player. The way the player engages the enemies is upto the player.

Why is it 'Splinter Cell': It requires the player to be sneaky while designating targets, targets that are well defended by troops on the alert. It can be a perfect amalgamation of 'Panther'/'Ghost' and aggro-stealth. Imagine staying perfectly still, designating a target...as 2 enemies patrol right outside the window..looking for you.

Why is it 'Action': the player can choose to go rambo any time he wishes, it will make the job more difficult but it will be viable. It will also lead to some of the most epic explosions ever seen in VG history.
Here's something interesting (slightly OT):

I was reading a book on SOF operations in Afghanistan (IIRC it's either 'Kill Bin Laden' or 'First In'). Both factual accounts by people who were there.
In one sequence, two operators are atop a cliff, designating a target in a Taliban held locality....1 mile away..on a mountain top. They were guiding in BLU-82s...massive, monster bombs. When the bomb exploded the pressure wave was so intense..it knocked the two prone operators - sitting a mile away - from their perch and gave them minor cuts and injuries.

THAT^ is the destructive power we are dealing with.

An explosion of that magnitude, simulated in HD glory...with authentic, realistic effects...THAT is what the action is about.
This offers a great gameplay oppurtunity as well..allowing the player to use the explosion as a distraction.
Explosions should mean something in games...they should be sparingly used but when actually shown..they should have the impact of a divine weapon.

Also, I don't want the perspective to shift to that of the JSOW at any given time

[Andre202]

While I do like your idea, shouldn't the members of 4E help Sam in this situation? So you would actually need to get to a safe point (exfiltration point) from where you can see the missiles going down on that village through Isaac Briggs and Grim. I mean they were able to mark the truck themselfs too, so no point to designate them. They just wait for Sam to get out of the dangerous area so they are able to bomb the village.

Again it's not that I don't like the idea, I would like to have that much more, rather than the Drone Scene controlled through your OPSAT.
Every alternative that supports the gameplay range is welcome in my opinion and if it has the Splinter Cell touch on it, even more.

[Knot3D]

Situation: Jadid is dead

...and it makes me wonder if Ubi will have that scene play out in the final game, as we've seen in the demo. If they're wise, they might do some tweaks to that script.

Sam needs to exfil fast and the village is being surrounded by enemy forces

Imo, the urgency and style of exfiltration should be dictated by the way the player has played up to that point. If they have the variety of which they speak, they should have a script, nimble enough to provide a flexible cause & effect.