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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Om4zd View Post
    I think if they do that you won't have to unlock it but purchase it. Like they said you would to nearly all your gear.
    What? Why would I need to purchase anything? Isn't 4thE on a government budget and don't they answer to the President herself? Doesn't this mean we get the best tools or at least have a sizeable budget? I mean if we have enough room in our budget to repurpose an AC-130 (or whatever the Paladin is) into a mobile government intelligence agency that has high tech electronics such as holographic displays then why do we need to buy anything? In CT Sam got the best tools available (quality NV/Thermal/EM googles, a small optic cam, sticky cameras) so why does he need to buy anything now? Isn't he supposed to have the best suit, tools and guns available. Besides why would I need to purchase the OCP it if its supposed to be an integral part of the Five-Seven? I don't get it...
    Last edited by Nicky694; 08-10-2012 at 11:28 PM.
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  2. #42
    Senior Member shobhit7777777's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicky694 View Post
    What? Why would I need to purchase anything? Isn't 4thE on a government budget and don't they answer to the President herself? Doesn't this mean we get the best tools or at least have a sizeable budget? I mean if we have enough room in our budget to repurpose an AC-130 (or whatever the Paladin is) into a mobile government intelligence agency that has high tech holographic tech then why do we need to buy anything? In CT Sam got the best tools available (quality NV/Thermal/EM googles, a small optic cam, sticky cameras) so why does he need to buy anything now? Isn't he supposed to have the best suit, tools and guns available. Besides why would I need to purchase the OCP it if its supposed to be an integral part of the Five-Seven? I don't get it...
    This makes sense to me.

    instead of buying things...everything should be available. Instead of buying a sleeker outfit for better movement..the player should have a choice of sleek, medium bulky, heavily armored suits.

    I'm Batman



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  3. #43
    Fourth Echelon isn't actually a government sanctioned agency from what we are led to believe. It's off-the-books. No one except President Caldwell knows it exists. The funding it recieves would either be very limited or non-existant. Think of it from a non-offical cover point of view. NOC Case Officer's would for all intents and purposes cease to exist. They wouldn't even exist on paper. They would get a government pay check but only AFTER they have completed their work and back on ''official'' duty. During the time they are a NOC they would have to forage off the land so to speak. Secure their own funding, buy their own weapons, clothes, vehicles, identification, hotel rooms, you name it they have to acquire it themselves.

    That's basically what Fourth Echelon is. A NOC government agency. That's what Third Echelon was but I understand that had government funding. High-ranking policymakers knew it was there but kept their eye away from it. Which is part of the reason why it turned into a rogue agency when Reed took over.
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  4. #44
    Okay so how about the Paladin? Also where does Sam buy state of the art stealth suits that are better than what is given to him and what does this NOC business have to do with having to buy the OCP? Why and where does Sam have to buy weapons that can't just be issued to him? The Paladin is large enough to house an entire intelligence agency then why doesn't it have a fully stocked armory? Also why doesn't the government or at least the preisdent fully fund 4E? Since when do intelligence agencies have to pay for hotel rooms, vehicles and such out of their own pocket? That doesn't make sense.

    Another thing I have to ask is why can't the president secretly fund 4E if she is supposedly the only one who knows about their existence. Also why didn't the President just make them a subdivision in the NSA like before. She could still be the only who knows about them and its not like any NSA employees are going to be compelled to ask questions and if they do try to find out any info they can be denied that since its presidential level info.
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  5. #45
    Fourth Echelon is not an official intelligence agency much like how Third Echelon wasn't, except that was funded by the government because it was created by the government. Fourth Echelon was created by one person: President Caldwell. An intelligence agency cannot answer directly to one person because it's too much power for that one personto have. It has to answer to a cabal of government officials. If the US government found out that she created Fourth Echelon herself and that only she knows about it, they would feel that it would be an improper use of her power. What do you think red tape is? Red tape is basically a way of the government, not the President saying ''you can't do this, you can't do that''. Fourth Echelon can cut through all the red tape, it has zero restrictions because for all intents and purposes it doesn't exist. Because it doesn't ''exist'' it has to secure funding itself.

    ''and what does this NOC business have to do with having to buy the OCP?''

    The NOC business is a way of explaining why Fourth Echelon has to acquire the gear itself rather than the government issuing it. That's what a NOC Case Officer does. They acquire their own gear by using their contacts in the criminal underworld. If they need a gun, they'll use one of the safe houses that the CIA provides except the CIA doesn't know they are using it. If they can't use one of those safe houses, they'll find an arms dealer in the criminal underworld and acquire weapons that way.

    ''Okay so how about the Paladin? Also where does Sam buy state of the art stealth suits that are better than what is given to him. Why and where does Sam have to buy weapons that can't just be issued to him? The Paladin is large enough to house an entire intelligence agency then why doesn't it have a fully stocked armory?''

    Use your brain. How does one normally acquire something without it being given to him or without buying it? Stealing. Is it too much of a stretch to believe that Fisher can't actually steal from the remnants of Third Echelon? I'm sure they'll have safe houses dotted about the globe and because he worked for them, he would know where they are. Those safe houses would be stocked with weapons, money, suits. He could just waltz right in and steal whatever he neded. Of course being one of the top spies in the US intelligence community he would know not to do this frequently. He would have to think outside the box and use arms dealers. His best friend owns a security firm who probably has access to a lot of weapons. Coste would be a good friend and help him out like he already has. Fisher will improvise because that what makes him good at his job. It's what makes him a cut above the rest. He could get anything he wanted at any given time at any place in the world.

    As for the Paladin... I'm sure Fisher and Grim could've found an old decommissioned AC-130 in an airplane graveyard, fixed it up with their crew and they've got a fully functional mobile headquarters.

    ''Since when do intelligence agencies have to pay for hotel rooms, vehicles and such out of their own pocket? That doesn't make sense.''

    How doesn't it make sense? Every company has a yearly budget to run on. Private companies have investors, intelligence agencies have the government. That budget isn't just for clandestine operations or intelligence gathering, it's also for food, accomodation, vehicles, weapons, training, security. Everything has a budget set by either the government or private investors. However a NOC Case Officer which is effectively a rogue agent would have to pay for accomodation, vehicles and weapons themselves using money they have acquired from contacts or side jobs because they don't officially exist. I mean how can you give money to something that doesn't exist without people asking where that money is going?

    ''Another thing I have to ask is why can't the president secretly fund 4E if she is supposedly the only one who knows about their existence.''

    Because she needs approval. It's not like she can just deposit a hundred million dollars into a bank account somewhere in the Cayman Islands. People will start to wonder what it's for. And where does she get the money from? The government isn't giving it to her. She can't secretly use her own private fund. It would leave a paper trail and people would ask questions as to what that money is being used for.

    ''Also why didn't the President just make them a subdivision in the NSA like before. She could still be the only who knows about them and its not like any NSA employees are going to be compelled to ask questions and if they do try to find out any info they can be denied that since its presidential level info.''

    Because it's not as simple as all that. You can't just create a sub-division inside the NSA and expect to be the only person who knows about it. How does she fund it? She can't fund it using the NSA's budget. Contrary to what you think people would ask questions. They won't just sit there and say ''twenty million dollars just disappeared from the budget again, it seems to have gone into a private account called 4E'' They would go to the Director of the NSA, tell him what they'd found, he'd go to the Director of National Intelligence, he'd go to the President, she'd tell him to stay out of it, he'd go to the Chiefs of Staff or senate, they'd go back to the President, she'd tell them to keep out of it once more and questions will be raised.
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  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by rooster82 View Post
    Fourth Echelon is not an official intelligence agency much like how Third Echelon wasn't, except that was funded by the government because it was created by the government. Fourth Echelon was created by one person: President Caldwell. An intelligence agency cannot answer directly to one person because it's too much power for that one personto have. It has to answer to a cabal of government officials. If the US government found out that she created Fourth Echelon herself and that only she knows about it, they would feel that it would be an improper use of her power. What do you think red tape is? Red tape is basically a way of the government, not the President saying ''you can't do this, you can't do that''. Fourth Echelon can cut through all the red tape, it has zero restrictions because for all intents and purposes it doesn't exist. Because it doesn't ''exist'' it has to secure funding itself.

    ''and what does this NOC business have to do with having to buy the OCP?''

    The NOC business is a way of explaining why Fourth Echelon has to acquire the gear itself rather than the government issuing it. That's what a NOC Case Officer does. They acquire their own gear by using their contacts in the criminal underworld. If they need a gun, they'll use one of the safe houses that the CIA provides except the CIA doesn't know they are using it. If they can't use one of those safe houses, they'll find an arms dealer in the criminal underworld and acquire weapons that way.

    ''Okay so how about the Paladin? Also where does Sam buy state of the art stealth suits that are better than what is given to him. Why and where does Sam have to buy weapons that can't just be issued to him? The Paladin is large enough to house an entire intelligence agency then why doesn't it have a fully stocked armory?''

    Use your brain. How does one normally acquire something without it being given to him or without buying it? Stealing. Is it too much of a stretch to believe that Fisher can't actually steal from the remnants of Third Echelon? I'm sure they'll have safe houses dotted about the globe and because he worked for them, he would know where they are. Those safe houses would be stocked with weapons, money, suits. He could just waltz right in and steal whatever he neded. Of course being one of the top spies in the US intelligence community he would know not to do this frequently. He would have to think outside the box and use arms dealers. His best friend owns a security firm who probably has access to a lot of weapons. Coste would be a good friend and help him out like he already has. Fisher will improvise because that what makes him good at his job. It's what makes him a cut above the rest. He could get anything he wanted at any given time at any place in the world.

    As for the Paladin... I'm sure Fisher and Grim could've found an old decommissioned AC-130 in an airplane graveyard, fixed it up with their crew and they've got a fully functional mobile headquarters.

    ''Since when do intelligence agencies have to pay for hotel rooms, vehicles and such out of their own pocket? That doesn't make sense.''

    How doesn't it make sense? Every company has a yearly budget to run on. Private companies have investors, intelligence agencies have the government. That budget isn't just for clandestine operations or intelligence gathering, it's also for food, accomodation, vehicles, weapons, training, security. Everything has a budget set by either the government or private investors. However a NOC Case Officer which is effectively a rogue agent would have to pay for accomodation, vehicles and weapons themselves using money they have acquired from contacts or side jobs because they don't officially exist. I mean how can you give money to something that doesn't exist without people asking where that money is going?

    ''Another thing I have to ask is why can't the president secretly fund 4E if she is supposedly the only one who knows about their existence.''

    Because she needs approval. It's not like she can just deposit a hundred million dollars into a bank account somewhere in the Cayman Islands. People will start to wonder what it's for. And where does she get the money from? The government isn't giving it to her. She can't secretly use her own private fund. It would leave a paper trail and people would ask questions as to what that money is being used for.

    ''Also why didn't the President just make them a subdivision in the NSA like before. She could still be the only who knows about them and its not like any NSA employees are going to be compelled to ask questions and if they do try to find out any info they can be denied that since its presidential level info.''

    Because it's not as simple as all that. You can't just create a sub-division inside the NSA and expect to be the only person who knows about it. How does she fund it? She can't fund it using the NSA's budget. Contrary to what you think people would ask questions. They won't just sit there and say ''twenty million dollars just disappeared from the budget again, it seems to have gone into a private account called 4E'' They would go to the Director of the NSA, tell him what they'd found, he'd go to the Director of National Intelligence, he'd go to the President, she'd tell him to stay out of it, he'd go to the Chiefs of Staff or senate, they'd go back to the President, she'd tell them to keep out of it once more and questions will be raised.
    Everything you said makes absolute sense. But can you please explain to me which dev said the bolded? Also when did the devs said that 4E was NOC?
    Don't know if this will help http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Cla...ell:_Blacklist Read the plot section and you'll see where my confusion comes from.
    Last edited by Nicky694; 08-11-2012 at 03:18 AM.
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  7. #47
    No dev said that. It's purely speculation. But does that mean it isn't true? No, not at all. It's just the product of an over-active imagination. I would like to believe it's true. I think it would be awesome if the devs were already planning on giving an explanation akin to what I posted (the bold section). People probably will wonder why Fisher can acquire all of that stuff seeing as how he's technically not an official government employee and quite rightly so, I would like it to be explained to. If not, then that's life.

    As for Fourth Echelon being a NOC agency I have to say that no dev confirmed it but the reveal trailer pretty much gave some hint that it's an off-the-books agency. President Caldwell states that agencies like Third Echelon are the problem so she shuts it down. Now one could assume that because of Third Echelon she decided to create it's successor but keep it a secret so that only her and it's agents know of it's existence. That would technically make it a NOC agency because it doesn't exist, officially or unofficially. I'm using NOC erronoeusly because that isn't used to describe unofficial agencies, it's used to describe unofficial agents.

    Again it's all speculation but it might have some truth to it. Personally I'd like Fourth Echelon to be an agency that no one knows about as it goes back to what made the original game so great. I got the feeling during the original Splinter Cell that only maybe ten people outside of Third Echelon knew of it's existence. With each game the number got higher until it almost became an official agency like the CIA or NSA and everyone knew of it's existence. I think it's existence would have been made public eventually and if the reveal trailer for Blacklist is anything to go by it was.
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  8. #48
    Senior Member Dieinthedark's Avatar
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    I think it would be a good tool to have back however I am skeptical of if we would actually need it. I have a feeling a good percentage of the levels will be outdoor, don't ask why, its just a suspicion I have so the devs might not feel its justified if you're only going to need to use it a handful of times.
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  9. #49
    By the way, what does "dealt with in an interesting manner" mean? Knocking out or killing? I don't find that very interesting at all, and the OCP doesn't make the NPCs blind because they have flares and ears so you have to be strategic about it. I think it's unfair to say it's easier, it is different from "true" stealth but it has its cons as well.[/QUOTE]

    An interesting manner for me is one that is realistic, and forces you to rely on your wits and strategy more than technology. Like everybody else, I like the idea that Splinter Cell is a game that doesn't make combat a necessity in all cases. However, I don't like having a handy-dandy button to push as a way to solve problems. I like the idea of having to work with the stealth options that are presented by the enviroment. The existing light and shadow, enviromental obstructions, patrol patterns, etc. I also like the idea of risk, and I personally think that is what Splinter Cell is all about. Adding risk to the equation is comes down to questions of, when and whether you can justify taking action that will expose your activity. In real life, that would be the challenge. If there were a guard patrolling in a room that had a computer terminal you needed to access, in a real life situation you would have to weigh the consequences of either forfeiting the opportunity for intelligence gathering, vs incapacitating the guard and alerting the enemy that you were there. With the OCP, I can just walk into the room, turn of the light from anywhere, and scan the file. That doesn't really work, even the the AI is programmed to not detect you. A real person probably would. Furthermore, it would probably be way to risky to try and scan the file while they are in the room and avoiding detection. It would be nice if Splinter Cell could incorporate more of this kind of thing into the gameplay. The OCP doesn't foster a realistic form of stealth that seems believable, but instead functions as a gimmick to manipulate the non-human AI. From my point of view, the OCP exposes me to the fact that the AI aren't human, instead of creating a believable atmosphere.

    I enjoy that the game requires occassional periods where I have to break total stealth, and use action to eliminate a barrier, such as a patrolling guard. My only objection to Conviction was that it lacked the stealth emphasis. It actually handles the action side of the game fairly well. It just went off the deep end and turned every situation into a kill everybody in the room, mission.
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