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  1. #51
    Senior Member Andre202's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shobhit7777777 View Post
    They didn't, but that doesn't negate the M&E as a tactical stealth tool rather than an explosive, get-out-of-jail mechanic.
    Conviction's SP was poorly designed IMHO...and I agree that the game devolved into "Use the M&E to live" moments. But that is one facet of the mechanic. One which I, personally, shied away from.
    But consider D-ops...same mechanics there as well. M&E can be used as a stealth tool there...wouldn't you agree, and I say CAN..because someone may want to use it as an emergency "eject" button...everyone has their own playstyle...who are we to dictate.
    I don't want to dictate how to use the that feature either, but isn't that the whole point here? It has so many ways to be used, it's flexible, so it's abuseable which is why we are restricting the game mechanic. I suggested to stick it to one facet and only that one, which doesn't mean it's the best idea, I never claimed it would be. At the end it was the same as others did which was restricting that feature to Stealth only (one facet only) and I can live with that. In fact, I can imagine how hard it could be actually to kill all persons without anybody noticing each other or finding a dead body with all the suggested ideas.



    M&E is a flexible tool which rewards both stealthy and action players. You can deploy it tactically OR simply use it as you wish.
    That's the thing which is making that feature overpowered in my opinion. Restricting it to Stealth only, you still have an aggressive style you could use. You mentioned the points yourself later on.



    You feel that it offers the players an easy way out, supports a more overt playstyle, doesn't have consequences for reckless usage and hence is easily abused....and I agree. But IMO...M&E is more of a tactical stealth tool rather than the 'gameplay loop paradox' that you are suggesting.
    I suggested to stick to one facet. Let it be only Stealth, let it be only Inbetween Stealth and Action or let it be completely Action. I just took the second one because that's what I felt what the devs intented the feature to be like but I am completely fine if it's only Stealth focused. Allowing for tactical use, aggressively and defensively and the other two points you named.



    Like I stated in my earlier post...M&E is a STEALTH TOOL BY DESIGN. The side-effect is the abuse that we want to curb.
    That's where I disagree. It can be one. That's how you use it but it's not only that and that's why it's overpowered.



    Yeah...a grab is stealthy action in my books. But the underlying principal remains the same.....a Stealth Attack, grants you the ability to headshot enemies. THIS is where player choice comes in and the whole "Tactical" debate comes into play.
    I am not saying Grabbing is not stealthy, I was trying to point out that this isn't a takedown at all. If the feature would require you to do a real Stealth Takedown, you would need to think much further when it comes to your planning since you cannot grab and use the token and abuse the enemy as a human shield. If we would include the suggestion that the Execution stage cancles when one of the enemies shoots at you back, we have the situation that we included the downside that is easy exploited through the use of a human shield.



    (a) You can choose to be quite about it and plan it such that NOBODY detects your execute (Shooting the last 2 guys, shooting 2 guys in the darkness and away from patrol routes, luring in two guards etc....BTW I say two because that is the average number of guys I execute per one M&E)
    hence rounding off your well laid plans with a COVERT EXECUTE

    (b) You can do an OVERT EXECUTE and launch a surprise attack....like the one you see in the demos...grab one guy..mark the chandelier...mark the remaining guys..and execute. A loud, messy way but ultimately "stealthy" because they are all dead

    (c) Conserve it for trickier situations

    (d) Use it to go commando
    Not sure what you mean with the last one, but you focus much more on Stealth. There is so much situations where you can use that feature, but you just counted the examples which are stealthy, which is great. I am not saying that's wrong, I think it's right to restrict the feature to one aspect/facet to make it not as powerful.



    Using Covert Executes is better for all since the AI routines are not broken, patterns continue and you can move on with the next step of your plan (if any)...hence rewarding you with more opportunities for stealthy attacks and silent takedowns..like a perfect cycle.
    When you go Overt..well routines won't matter much then...you can improvise.
    You were always talking about planning when discussing about this feature which means that you limited yourself there a lot already. Seems like I did only improvise, not that the enemies were in investigation/alert mode though.



    M&E by design supports a stealthier paystyle
    M&E IS flexible...and perhaps SHOULDN'T be.
    This here is completely different to the stuff you said above and I agree with this here. M&E by design supports a stealthier playstyle design, but it's not a Stealth tool by design because that would speak against the whole flexibility it has and I would say it shouldn't have that since limiting it seems to higher up the tactical aspect and the satisfaction to use that tool. It would also strengthen it as a Stealth focused tool.



    Not that alert mode...sorry should've made myself clear...I meant the Investigation mode.
    Picking them off one by one maybe easier (Predator mode)......but it lends itself to chaos in my experience.
    When you have studied the routines and patrols...you know what happens next..you can plan around it...take it into consideration..and remain one step ahead of the enemy. This is essential for remaining quite and sneaky.
    Once you get them in investigative mode....they are more prone to find the bodies you leave behind...you don't know where Guard #3 is because he left his patrol route and is off searching for you somewhere.....thus making you think twice before executing #3 & #4...you know what I mean?
    You are more or less reacting rather than following a plan.
    You restrict it to planning, to a heavy Stealth feature (I like that) but as you said above you can improvise in these both modes very well too, because of it's flexibility.



    Absolutely

    Clusters are actually a good idea, bro.

    1. Guards often get together and have a quick chat...its natural and feels realistic
    I don't mind these quick chats because these are believeable and I even want them to have, more different dialouges though. Also it's rather the AI placement of Deniable Ops you are preferring, in the Singleplayer that's... well it seems we know that it isn't cool at all there.

    I mean things like you saw in the Blacklist demo where the AI was literally standing like in an alley where you could move in kill, left, right, left, right. With KIM this whole thing with clusters is getting to a whole new level.



    LKP harkens back to the Panther/Predator concepts. It uses an Overt Execute to get an LKP....then off to cat and mouse. The Gameplay loop changes once an execute takes place..wouldn't you agree...because once you get your LKP and vanish...you are back into the INVESTIGATIVE MODE....which lends itself to panther gameplay ..not renter the PEV loop..not with as much depth anyway..as it becomes more improvisational.
    But that's how you end the gameplay loop of M&E isn't it? Prepare-Execute-(Detected)-Vanished(LKP appears). I know you may say that's just one facet again, but you are using it as a Stealth tool only, you don't have the Vanish part, other than that M&E will cancle when someone shoots at you but that's not possible yet. As you said, you have it only for the dramatic effect... LOL



    I vanish for dramatic effect XD
    I see...



    Could be...I like to think of predator as the guy who stalks, spooks and takes out enemies one by one.
    Haven't you said somewhere that the predator is inbetween Stealth and Action? Which is why I wrote this above what I said before. What you say here is how I always felt about the Predator/Panther who doesn't use M&E.
    Last edited by Andre202; 08-09-2012 at 01:18 AM.
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  2. #52
    Senior Member oO_ShadowFox_Oo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolidSage View Post
    @Shadowfox
    Omitting a use of a M&E as valid because you don't approve of it? Not surprised.
    I never said the use wasn't valid, I just said it's ridiculous.

    Sam doesn't have super-powers.

    I don't mind Sam being able to track peeps through walls and doors with M&E if he's using sonar goggles or thermal goggles...

    But tracking people after they've gone behind a wall is pretty daft.

    What possible valid explanation can there be for this?

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  3. #53
    Senior Member Om4zd's Avatar
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    Yes I agree with you here Shadowfox.

    It should be like in Battlefield 3 where if you spot or mark someone and they retreat back to cover or leave your line of sight then the mark should disappear.

    Though how do you think it should work in coop if this is the case?
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  4. #54
    Senior Member Andre202's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Om4zd View Post
    Though how do you think it should work in coop if this is the case?
    Easy. The one who can see the enemy will still have the marker on the enemy. The other one who doesn't see the enemy, won't, but it will show off in his HUD that his partner is using one of the available marks.



    Quote Originally Posted by oO_ShadowFox_Oo View Post
    But there is a very easy way to make M&E not so powerful, without having to resort to any of those things.

    1. Reduce the range of auto-headshots
    2. Make Sam slower
    3. Make guards more aware of people getting shot around them
    4. Make guards quicker to react
    5. Have the guard's awareness level impact how many bullets it takes to kill him
    6. Have the actual count the bullets in the magazine impact the execution phase (i.e. you forgot to reload, then you don't get to finish your move if you ran out of bullets).

    I like this, because most of your points could be linked to the difficulty setting and the developer will be able to increase/decrease the effect of some of these points.
    Last edited by Andre202; 08-08-2012 at 11:42 PM.
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  5. #55
    Senior Member SolidSage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oO_ShadowFox_Oo View Post
    What possible valid explanation can there be for this?
    Tracking tagged thermal registrations.

    Which brings me to Thermal Goggles, no one seems to have a problem with them but Sonar gets guff. ?

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  6. #56
    Senior Member oO_ShadowFox_Oo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolidSage View Post
    Tracking tagged thermal registrations.

    Which brings me to Thermal Goggles, no one seems to have a problem with them but Sonar gets guff. ?
    Exactly. It would work if he's wearing the goggles. It shouldn't work if he's not.

    The HUD has to be a representation of Sam's reality. There is no way Sam can track someone who he can't see, with or without technology.

    And yes, thermal imaging exists and works, albeit a stretch with some of the surfaces you can peer through in the previous games.

    Sonar, or how it's represented in the game, is ridiculous.

    There's a difference between the original games taking current or soon to be developed technologies, and then fabricating a concept that would never work in the field, simply based on theory.
    Last edited by oO_ShadowFox_Oo; 08-09-2012 at 04:10 AM.

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  7. #57
    Senior Member Andre202's Avatar
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    If the sonar would be like the radar on a boat, send a signal and for a short time rough contours of the enemies appear, I think that would be more believeable. You could blur the vision a bit too, it seems to be to sharp. The time it highlights the rough contours of enemies could depend on the difficulty. The higher the difficulty the faster it disappears again and you need to wait for the sonar to send the next signal.
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  8. #58
    Senior Member oO_ShadowFox_Oo's Avatar
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    While your description would be "better", even that is ludicrous...

    Sonar only works in water because there are no obstacles in the way of the source & receiver. Just an empty medium which is highly conductive to that form of energy.

    Even then, the capabilities to track and identify objects (which are generally massive) with any accuracy/precision is difficult.

    I can understand that they wanted to freshen things up with some new tech, but when the tech isn't feasible or able to be validated, it just piles more question marks on the series, IMHO.

    The only other place I have ever heard the technology mentioned was in the G.I. JOE movie.

    'nuff said.
    Last edited by oO_ShadowFox_Oo; 08-09-2012 at 05:13 AM.

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  9. #59
    Senior Member shobhit7777777's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andre202 View Post
    I don't want to dictate how to use the that feature either, but isn't that the whole point here? It has so many ways to be used, it's flexible, so it's abuseable which is why we are restricting the game mechanic. I suggested to stick it to one facet and only that one, which doesn't mean it's the best idea, I never claimed it would be. At the end it was the same as others did which was restricting that feature to Stealth only (one facet only) and I can live with that. In fact, I can imagine how hard it could be actually to kill all persons without anybody noticing each other or finding a dead body with all the suggested ideas.
    Honestly I'd like M&E to be restricted as well to make it a stealth-only tool..BUT then I realize that I may be shutting off another fun (if not tactical) playstyle. The thing is I CHOOSE to use M&E as a tactical tool...and not as an overly abused crutch.
    Why limit a mechanic when the same result can be achieved by player choice? Thats regressive IMO. Because I am hunded percent sure that a lot of us enjoy the empowerment that M&E gives us....I don't ALWAYS play aggro-stealth...sometimes I just want to go 'Batman' y'know.

    I like having that diversity. Besides...I imagine that we at the forums are not the majority of the fans and represent a small, vocal faction of the franchise fans. I believe there are a lot of Conviction fans that enjoyed playing with M&E that way.

    This here is completely different to the stuff you said above and I agree with this here. M&E by design supports a stealthier playstyle design, but it's not a Stealth tool by design because that would speak against the whole flexibility it has and I would say it shouldn't have that since limiting it seems to higher up the tactical aspect and the satisfaction to use that tool. It would also strengthen it as a Stealth focused tool.
    What I am getting at it is that the mechanic is flawed (IMO)....it has it's roots in stealthy takedowns but players can't help but feel that the game becomes easier. At the same time, the M&E's flexibility can be really helpful and empowering...a fun mechanic when things go awry. It's a fine balance to achieve with M&E.

    I think that sums up my POV

    I don't want it to be abused..but I don't want to deprived of some mindless fun in the game. Scaleable difficulty is the way to go then.

    As you said, you have it only for the dramatic effect... LOL


    I quickly drop a flash at my feet and run away XD...to bad there are no smoke grenades in SCC

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  10. #60
    Senior Member Andre202's Avatar
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    @ShadowFox: I know.
    They might have used the ENVG (Night and Thermal combined) as something new and fresh.



    Quote Originally Posted by shobhit7777777 View Post
    Honestly I'd like M&E to be restricted as well to make it a stealth-only tool..BUT then I realize that I may be shutting off another fun (if not tactical) playstyle. The thing is I CHOOSE to use M&E as a tactical tool...and not as an overly abused crutch.
    Why limit a mechanic when the same result can be achieved by player choice? Thats regressive IMO. Because I am hunded percent sure that a lot of us enjoy the empowerment that M&E gives us....I don't ALWAYS play aggro-stealth...sometimes I just want to go 'Batman' y'know.

    I like having that diversity. Besides...I imagine that we at the forums are not the majority of the fans and represent a small, vocal faction of the franchise fans. I believe there are a lot of Conviction fans that enjoyed playing with M&E that way.
    Easy difficulty. I don't have a problem if it's still the way it always was there but if I am playing on Expert and I have to restrict myself from the beginning, from the very first start I play this game then it does something wrong in my opinion because that's what it should actually handle with through the difficulty system. I start as a Panther and then go over to the Ghost step by step I restrict myself there.



    What I am getting at it is that the mechanic is flawed (IMO)....it has it's roots in stealthy takedowns but players can't help but feel that the game becomes easier. At the same time, the M&E's flexibility can be really helpful and empowering...a fun mechanic when things go awry. It's a fine balance to achieve with M&E.

    I think that sums up my POV

    I don't want it to be abused..but I don't want to deprived of some mindless fun in the game. Scaleable difficulty is the way to go then.
    Take Deus Ex's difficulty system:

    Tell me a Story (Easy):
    You play games for their story and experience, not for their challenge or competitiveness. Enjoy the Deus Ex experience!

    Give me a Challenge (Normal):
    You enjoy a good story and a good challenge. This is how the game is meant to be played!

    Give me Deus Ex (Hard):
    Hardened enemies and tougher situations will make your experience quiet challenging and give you a good adrenaline rush. You are one with the machine!

    Do you want to have a fun experience, play Easy. Do you want the game to play as it's meant to be played, play on Normal. Do you want to have a real challenge play on Hard. That's what I suppose the M&E feature has to do.


    But that's based on a whole different technology.
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