Easy to learn, Hard to Master - M&E | KIM | Forums

[sameer_monier]

STEALTH is what this game should be about and M&E isn't used for stealth, it's used for Action.

Not true at all, I sure as hell use M&E as a stealth feature, it actually shine alot more as a stealth feature rather than an action feature.

[Andre202]

I thought about M&E and the Gameplay loop a lot in the recent time again and I came to the conclusion that M&E is actually not working with the Gameplay Loop together. The devs strongly focused on the issue of failure when they presented these new features in Conviction. The problem, the first two games have, is the trial&error in those games. They always said that these features are aimed for the purpose to give the player another chance. The fluidity and those features should give the player the opportunity to flee or to do damage control when screwing up. Earlier I said it's a golden card out of danger and that is the problem, the thing is it's actually supposed to work just that way if you consider the gameplay loop.

The gameplay loop, Stealth - Screwing Up - Action (Damage Control) - Vanish - Back to Stealth. M&E should actually just support that gameplay loop through it's prepare, execute and vanish. But M&E is actually being abused by exploiting exactly that gameplay loop. So M&E is not actually supporting but abusing the gameplay loop. You remember the discussions we had about this gameplay loop in Conviction earlier where we said that having the Handle System would be super cool because it would support the gameplay loop a lot more, like you vanish and try to get away go through the door and push a cupboard in front of it?

Now if we take the KIM sequence again. We are abusing the gameplay loop first, then we are actually detected (2:25) and that's what the M&E should be actually dealing with (screwing up, being detected), but we get a M&E token again (although we weren't stealthy) and first when we get to the last two guards, then we are actually using the M&E that is really supporting the gameplay loop of which the devs always were talking about. The thing is that the M&E token you got there was actually coming from the M&E that abused the gameplay loop first. I hope you know what I mean. M&E should be actually used to your defense which is different to playing defensive. It's actually not there to help the predator to deal with multiple targets. In my opinion it should be there to help the predator to use a much more aggressive approach and when screwing up because being aggressive has a lot of downsides you use M&E to your defense.

The preperation is actually pretty much the same compared to how you always prepared before. You see two guys in a room (it can be more, just an example), you grab the first guy, but the second one hears you, BAM M&E. M&E can only be executed when you were in the Stealth state before (supporting the gameplay loop). So sneaking up to the guard and grabbing is sneaky, stealthy. The moment the guy hears you how you grabbed the first guard, the moment M&E activates because you screwed up. It transfers into the execution part (damage-control) and as far as I have thought about the M&E I thought about two possibilities how the Execution of M&E would work. Either way just like in Prince of Persia where the game goes for a very short time into a Slo-Mo and you need to push the button in that time or it works like AC's counter attacks. The AI will make the animation to either call for his comrades and raise the alarm (you should be able to see how he does that) or when he takes his weapon and is about to shoot you are able to push the button and Sam will take care of this guy (or with these guys, up to three persons). The priority is set to the guy who turns to you first, who is about to be the first who alerts the others or who is the first to shoot at you. The whole thing about this M&E is that it doesn't need any additional buttons, nor does it need marks and the only restriction would be to be in a stealthy state first (Prepare), then screw up, then getting the chance to do some damage control (Execution), vanish, getting back to stealth. Just the way M&E works. Prepare, Execute, Vanish. There is no power-up to that.

Now I don't know how you all think about that version of M&E. Maybe someone suggested that already and I just forgot that, I especially come to this idea when ShadowFox was bringing up the Splinter Cell Extinction Prolouge Video in another thread. It's at about 4:08 (video starts automatically at that spot), it's the example I was actually using here to explain the M&E that I think fits perfectly to the gameplay loop. Stealth-Action-Stealth, Prepare-Execute-Vanish!



I forgot how awesome the soundtracks are here!

[FrankieSatt]

Not true at all, I sure as hell use M&E as a stealth feature, it actually shine alot more as a stealth feature rather than an action feature.

It's not a stealth feature in Splinter Cell, it's a "Win Button". When you don't have 5-6 people chasing you or shooting at you, it's a win button when you have a gun that has 4 marks on it. Reduce the number of marks and it makes it useless to use because why have an M&E when you only have 2 marks?

It works better for action because that is what you need it for when you have numbers chasing and shooting at you.

Again, STEALTH is avoiding contact, not making yourself a target. Why do you need M&E when avoiding contact?

Let me add one more thing. Even if you are going after people to kill them, doing it stealthly means doing it one person at a time, not 4-5 at a time. Stealth is one on one, not one on 5. This is Sam Fisher, not Rambo. Sam Fisher is smart enough to know that you don't take on 5 people at once, you take on one at a time or avoid them all together.

[sameer_monier]

The gameplay loop, Stealth - Screwing Up - Action (Damage Control) - Vanish - Back to Stealth. M&E should actually just support that gameplay loop through it's prepare, execute and vanish. But M&E is actually being abused by exploiting exactly that gameplay loop. So M&E is not actually supporting but abusing the gameplay loop.

But that's just a part of it, think of it the same way but like this Prepare by placing marks carefully -- Execute taking out the enemies silently --- then Vanish, imagine all of that in a stealthy manner where you are not detected, or even more you can mark the light so you shoot a couple of guys and the light above them, leaving them lying there in the darkness of a corner or something.

It is part of the stealth system, while also being part of abusive actions player, where you are under fire, and suddenly you take out 4 guys, that is abusive, and against my beliefs of M&E.

wait, actually reading that again, it feels like we are agreeing on the same point !!!, which brings me to my previous suggestion, M&E needs to be a Stealth focused feature rather than an action feature.

You remember the discussions we had about this gameplay loop in Conviction earlier where we said that having the Handle System would be super cool because it would support the gameplay loop a lot more, like you vanish and try to get away go through the door and push a cupboard in front of it?



Now if we take the KIM sequence again. We are abusing the gameplay loop first, then we are actually detected (2:25) and that's what the M&E should be actually dealing with (screwing up, being detected), but we get a M&E token again (although we weren't stealthy) and first when we get to the last two guards, then we are actually using the M&E that is really supporting the gameplay loop of which the devs always were talking about. The thing is that the M&E token you got there was actually coming from the M&E that abused the gameplay loop first. I hope you know what I mean.

I totally get your point, and totally agree, it seems I was right above when I thought we are saying the same thing, but

M&E should be actually used to your defense which is different to playing defensive. It's actually not there to help the predator to deal with multiple targets. In my opinion it should be there to help the predator to use a much more aggressive approach and when screwing up because being aggressive has a lot of downsides you use M&E to your defense.

Disagree, while I am seeing where you are coming from, maybe I am getting this wrong, but using it as a defensive tool means it is more of an action phase, a way to return to stealth phase yes I know, but still it is used in an action phase, I have a different view of it.

I use M&E to be more Fast in my Aggressive way, while also avoiding detection, and remaining as stealthy as possible, if I screw up, it means I am not stealthy, be it aggro or passive, detection is a no no, hence why I support M&E as a stealth feature, not out of jail action feature.

The preperation is actually pretty much the same compared to how you always prepared before. You see two guys in a room (it can be more, just an example), you grab the first guy, but the second one hears you, BAM M&E. M&E can only be executed when you were in the Stealth state before (supporting the gameplay loop). So sneaking up to the guard and grabbing is sneaky, stealthy. The moment the guy hears you how you grabbed the first guard, the moment M&E activates because you screwed up. It transfers into the execution part (damage-control) and as far as I have thought about the M&E I thought about two possibilities how the Execution of M&E would work. Either way just like in Prince of Persia where the game goes for a very short time into a Slo-Mo and you need to push the button in that time or it works like AC's counter attacks. The AI will make the animation to either call for his comrades and raise the alarm (you should be able to see how he does that) or when he takes his weapon and is about to shoot you are able to push the button and Sam will take care of this guy (or with these guys, up to three persons). The priority is set to the guy who turns to you first, who is about to be the first who alerts the others or who is the first to shoot at you. The whole thing about this M&E is that it doesn't need any additional buttons, nor does it need marks and the only restriction would be to be in a stealthy state first (Prepare), then screw up, then getting the chance to do some damage control (Execution), vanish, getting back to stealth. Just the way M&E works. Prepare, Execute, Vanish. There is no power-up to that.

Now I don't know how you all think about that version of M&E. Maybe someone suggested that already and I just forgot that, I especially come to this idea when ShadowFox was bringing up the Splinter Cell Extinction Prolouge Video in another thread. It's at about 4:08 (video starts automatically at that spot), it's the example I was actually using here to explain the M&E that I think fits perfectly to the gameplay loop. Stealth-Action-Stealth, Prepare-Execute-Vanish!



I forgot how awesome the soundtracks are here!

seeing this video as an example, I got what you are saying even more, but I still stand by my own opinion, I use M&E in a stealthy manner while avoiding detection, like the 2nd guard in the video, the character got detected, so he shot him, I on the other hand would have marked both of them, shooting the closer guy first, then the 2nd guy right after in the back of his head, before he turns his head, before I am detected, hence enforcing the stealth phase, rather than get out of jail phase.


That's is mainly how I am using M&E in SCC, I consider finding a body due to my mis-use of M&E as a detection, hence why I am excited that body carrying is back, cause I can take someone out, and hide his body, for example I was playing White Box a while back, and I was at the end of the level, the first phase of the ending where Robertson is hiding and you need to fry him, anyway there are guards, I wanted to take them all out in a stealth manner, first thing I did was take out the closet to me, but the bodies where found, so I retried it, 4 times later, I changed how I approach the situation, I actually went to the ****hest group, the 3 people on the balcony, using the M&E and taking them out, then I took a couple of guards in the middle area manually, and here came the tricky part, I had to take the remaining 4 near where I came from before they see any body, so I went back, shooting them silently, stealthy, choose the ones who are away from the group, or investigating a behind cover or a in a dark area, I screwed up again, but when I tried again I nailed it.

That to me was a pure Aggro-Stealth take on that part of the mission, hence why I refuse to call the demo we saw as aggro-stealth, maybe it is semi-aggro but not pure aggro, cause in the first sequence Sam got detected, to be honest if it was me I would have tried different approaches using KIM or M&E, but if I always got detected, I would rather shift to passive stealth, and just sneak by, to me I don't want to kill everyone in the game, but I want to be able to handle multiple targets in an aggressive but stealthy way.

[sameer_monier]

It's not a stealth feature in Splinter Cell, it's a "Win Button". When you don't have 5-6 people chasing you or shooting at you, it's a win button when you have a gun that has 4 marks on it. Reduce the number of marks and it makes it useless to use because why have an M&E when you only have 2 marks?

why not ?!, 2 marks are more realistic to me than 4 marks, hence why I stick with the 2.

It works better for action because that is what you need it for when you have numbers chasing and shooting at you.

not true, I need it when I am playing stealthy more, cause if I am detected, I just reload, unless it is my first playthrough where I just go on with consequences of my action.

Again, STEALTH is avoiding contact, not making yourself a target. Why do you need M&E when avoiding contact?

you can use M&E to avoid contact, and prevent yourself from becoming a target.
also need I remind you that avoiding contact is more of a passive stealth, while I am more into Aggro-Stealth ?!
Yet both are still STEALTH.

Let me add one more thing. Even if you are going after people to kill them, doing it stealthly means doing it one person at a time, not 4-5 at a time. Stealth is one on one, not one on 5. This is Sam Fisher, not Rambo. Sam Fisher is smart enough to know that you don't take on 5 people at once, you take on one at a time or avoid them all together.

exactly my point, hence why I take only 2 at a time, cause I am more into Fast Paced Stealth, you want to do it one at a time, that is being personal, you are generalizing stealth in an untrue way.

if there where two guys who patrol and you take them out when each is alone and hide their body that is stealthy, and if I take them when they are together in a stealthy way and hide their bodies then that too is STEALTH.


As I said M&E can be used an Action Feature, but it is very much a Stealth Feature and a strong one too.

[Andre202]

But that's just a part of it, think of it the same way but like this Prepare by placing marks carefully -- Execute taking out the enemies silently --- then Vanish, imagine all of that in a stealthy manner where you are not detected, or even more you can mark the light so you shoot a couple of guys and the light above them, leaving them lying there in the darkness of a corner or something.

You may change my M&E vision and just be able to mark those that could get detect you and need to be dealt with fast but at the end it's pretty much the same to the system I suggested only that the game is doing it internally and you are just required to react at the right moment. The timing you got to react depends on the difficulty. The system I suggest allows the player to be aggressive and at the same time avoid "detection" or rather avoid alarms being raised. You might add a fourth mark which is only able to shoot out the light or some sort of the environment.

Now let us look at another scenario. You grab a guy and there is a group of three guards standing under a light source detecting you, M&E is being initialised, you push the button at the right moment and Sam takes care of these guys and kills of the light source automatically too.

It is part of the stealth system, while also being part of abusive actions player, where you are under fire, and suddenly you take out 4 guys, that is abusive, and against my beliefs of M&E.

A Stealth player can abuse the system too and that's when you are not using the gameplay loop. M&E works without that gameplay loop. You can initialise while being in the Action sequence (which is not intended) and you can initialise without ever going into the Action part of the gameplay. Action begins when you are detected. That's why I said you shouldn't force the loop over the player, but it's a very good loop to show that Sam can deal with the mistakes he does, in a very fast manner (damage control). The system is still true to the philosophy. He is killing all the guys before they can tell the others that Sam is there, before these guys can raise the alarm, before they can actually shoot. It's all there to be able to switch very fast to Stealth back again.

If you are using M&E "tactically" means noone is detecting you, you pretty much do the same what you could do manually too, especially through the autoaim. You got the advantage of the fluidity so you are be able to defend yourself better and over the top you have that gameplay loop and above that you got the M&E which when adding all them together is a bit over the top. So I thought M&E should be strictly sticked to the gameplay loop.

wait, actually reading that again, it feels like we are agreeing on the same point !!!, which brings me to my previous suggestion, M&E needs to be a Stealth focused feature rather than an action feature.

I totally get your point, and totally agree, it seems I was right above when I thought we are saying the same thing, but

You know I am not sure if you do see the point because I am not that good when it comes to describing and explaining things. The same happened with the narrative, but there I had an example which people could relate to (Deus Ex). M&E or the gameplay loop is pretty much "unique" to the game and I cannot relate to any examples which may clarify what I am about to say. I think M&E can be called as a Stealth focused feature but it also needs the Action element (Stealth-Action-Stealth). The gameplay loop stickied together with M&E do the damage control to ensure that you keep the Undetected status which is important to both archetypes the Ghost and the Panther. The Stealth player will benefit from that whether it's someone who plays a more defensive Panther or someone who is playing really an aggressive one.

Disagree, while I am seeing where you are coming from, maybe I am getting this wrong, but using it as a defensive tool means it is more of an action phase, a way to return to stealth phase yes I know, but still it is used in an action phase, I have a different view of it.

It's still an aggressive tool used for defense and damage control. The short time where you get detected is the part where the Execution and the Action loop begins. When you are finished and haven't failed to react, you vanish and get back to Stealth. That's the gameplay loop. Pushing the button at the right time is there to balance out all the advantages you already have (fluidity and gameplay loop). I think I see your point, you don't use the tool in an active way, it's a passive tool which is always available though.

I use M&E to be more Fast in my Aggressive way, while also avoiding detection, and remaining as stealthy as possible, if I screw up, it means I am not stealthy, be it aggro or passive, detection is a no no, hence why I support M&E as a stealth feature, not out of jail action feature.

Just look at the first scene in the demo. You are in Stealth, you grab the guy, the others detect you, you deal with them with M&E, you are back in Stealth. Well ok you have to deal with the person you interrogate before too. What the team always showed when highlighting the gameplay loop is that it requires you to be detected because that's the only way how it's able to change from Stealth to Action and back to Stealth. That's what the Devs said, but the feature is abuseable because you can use that feature without getting into that loop at all, they don't work together and I think that's not in the interest of the Panther because the aggressive playstyle requires the feature to be stickied strictly to the gameplay loop. Otherwise you abuse. If you use it just in Stealth, to stay in Stealth you abuse it, if you use it just in Action you abuse it. There needs to be that loop, that change-up and M&E should actually just deal with that and I think you have a balanced game. I may be wrong here though, but when having that discussion with Solid for example I felt that M&E is actually not doing that favour it should be doing.

seeing this video as an example, I got what you are saying even more, but I still stand by my own opinion, I use M&E in a stealthy manner while avoiding detection, like the 2nd guard in the video, the character got detected, so he shot him, I on the other hand would have marked both of them, shooting the closer guy first, then the 2nd guy right after in the back of his head, before he turns his head, before I am detected, hence enforcing the stealth phase, rather than get out of jail phase.

But the gameplay loop is a get-out-of-jail gameplay loop, isn't it? That's the point and so that this get-out-of-jail gameplay loop stickied together doesn't get abused and get overpowered I suggested to require the gamer to push the button at the right time and therefore you will get the skills Sam should be able to pull when you did a mistake.

That's is mainly how I am using M&E in SCC, I consider finding a body due to my mis-use of M&E as a detection, hence why I am excited that body carrying is back, cause I can take someone out, and hide his body, for example I was playing White Box a while back, and I was at the end of the level, the first phase of the ending where Robertson is hiding and you need to fry him, anyway there are guards, I wanted to take them all out in a stealth manner, first thing I did was take out the closet to me, but the bodies where found, so I retried it, 4 times later, I changed how I approach the situation, I actually went to the ****hest group, the 3 people on the balcony, using the M&E and taking them out, then I took a couple of guards in the middle area manually, and here came the tricky part, I had to take the remaining 4 near where I came from before they see any body, so I went back, shooting them silently, stealthy, choose the ones who are away from the group, or investigating a behind cover or a in a dark area, I screwed up again, but when I tried again I nailed it.

That to me was a pure Aggro-Stealth take on that part of the mission, hence why I refuse to call the demo we saw as aggro-stealth, maybe it is semi-aggro but not pure aggro, cause in the first sequence Sam got detected, to be honest if it was me I would have tried different approaches using KIM or M&E, but if I always got detected, I would rather shift to passive stealth, and just sneak by, to me I don't want to kill everyone in the game, but I want to be able to handle multiple targets in an aggressive but stealthy way.

Well see, I see Aggro Stealth as something that is fluid and aggressive. To me fluid doesn't necessarily mean it needs to be fast though. M&E is so important to him to be able to avoid Action. We don't have deep mechanics in Conviction. The Sound System is missing, variable speed and with that the AI will be much more aware of you when you are using the aggressive approach (because it has his downsides) and that's why I try to sticky the feature to the gameplay loop so you are able to deal with these downsides and do some damage control, because the Panther isn't interested in being detected either.

Edit: At first when I started that thread I actually had pretty much the same idea about M&E as you, but after I thought about that much more longer I changed my mind because I think being able to use M&E without going through that gameplay loop is pretty much the thing which does make that feature so overpowered in my opinion.

[SolidSage]

M&E is a versatile tool, I think it can be beneficial in all play styles and scenarios. I don't think it should be assigned to one particular style by increasing the rewards when using it for that style.

Somebody argued a while back that if M&E is a spy 'skill' then earning it through an action is contradictory. I have to agree, but think that accepting it as a 'game' feature is probably the only way for it to work.


Increasing difficulty by adjusting AI density, awareness, placement and response/performance sounds like the best option to me too. Instead of making the 'skill' harder, make using it harder to profit from. This would balance the feature without breaking it.

I would enjoy an option to turn off the slow mo in SP though, allowing for a quick clean elimination and bypassing the 'movie' feel if desired.

KIM looks like fun. I don't have a problem with earning tokens during aggro action but the response timing of the AI from the point when it 'becomes' aware of Sam, to the point where it raises and fires it's gun IS important, (as pointed out by Andre previously). The window, and accuracy percentage of the shot/counter, should be very short and high respectively when on the hardest difficulty setting.

In the vid Andre, I think we can clearly see that Sam drops 3 of them before they even have a clue. The one at the vehicle does get eyes up but Sam is reasonabley quick enough to get him. Then the other 2 are blindsided again. I think it's a reasonably played out scenario for Rookie. Normal should result in a counter/block at the vehicle and interrupt Sam's flow so he can't earn the token or get over the hood and continue the execute chain.
Instead Sam will have to counter the counter, if he can and hope using dude as a meat shield will buy him a moment or two

The other thing I noticed in the vid is how the environment really looks sharp! The view and the location, the Sun flashes from behind the cloud, the tent flaps in motion and of course the characters and how the AI are going about their business. It all looks very good, even Sam dropping over the wall, which I assume is a momentary cut scene spliced deftly and smoothly within the Player's control. Kind of like co-op door breaching ("help me out"), that pause in control as they bust through and enter the room. Looks REALLY tight in Blacklist.


Anyway, back to Future Soldier for me, I've been on bit of a binge!

[x3c_Limerick]

Took me a bit to find this, haha
But its pretty much all I have to say on the matter for now.
(Originally from here)

Yeah, given the concept (though i don't like it at alll) that we're back in Iraq, i'd have to say this is the best digestion of what M& should/ Shouldn't do, and why it is actually a great part of Blacklist.

Ii personally wouln't mind if they gave the Marks a facelift and got rid of the arcadeish-arrows above people heads and put maybe one of those cool semi-squares like you see in the Predator Drone's missilie guiding system, tie it to whatever they call the hi-tech HUD now.

I also like Andre's stance that M&E should only be granted with a stealthy takedown melee approach in the fist place.

[sameer_monier]

You may change my M&E vision and just be able to mark those that could get detect you and need to be dealt with fast but at the end it's pretty much the same to the system I suggested only that the game is doing it internally and you are just required to react at the right moment. The timing you got to react depends on the difficulty. The system I suggest allows the player to be aggressive and at the same time avoid "detection" or rather avoid alarms being raised. You might add a fourth mark which is only able to shoot out the light or some sort of the environment.

Now let us look at another scenario. You grab a guy and there is a group of three guards standing under a light source detecting you, M&E is being initialised, you push the button at the right moment and Sam takes care of these guys and kills of the light source automatically too.

Got it, but it is still a defensive tool, not much used when I am aggressive, it is IMO a part of the Fast Paced Stealth, turning it like that while seems good, will also reduce it's function greatly, making it not that useful for pure aggro player, cause key word is detection, once the game since detection the M&E initiate, making it less stealthy IMO.

Kinda like C2C, it enforces the Fast Paced Stealth, to be able to take more enemies quickly yet silently.

A Stealth player can abuse the system too and that's when you are not using the gameplay loop. M&E works without that gameplay loop. You can initialise while being in the Action sequence (which is not intended) and you can initialise without ever going into the Action part of the gameplay. Action begins when you are detected. That's why I said you shouldn't force the loop over the player, but it's a very good loop to show that Sam can deal with the mistakes he does, in a very fast manner (damage control). The system is still true to the philosophy. He is killing all the guys before they can tell the others that Sam is there, before these guys can raise the alarm, before they can actually shoot. It's all there to be able to switch very fast to Stealth back again.

If you are using M&E "tactically" means noone is detecting you, you pretty much do the same what you could do manually too, especially through the autoaim. You got the advantage of the fluidity so you are be able to defend yourself better and over the top you have that gameplay loop and above that you got the M&E which when adding all them together is a bit over the top. So I thought M&E should be strictly sticked to the gameplay loop.

while you got a point, I tried that, I was playing D-Ops, there were 2 guards remaining, I thought should I mark and execute them, or do it manually, I went with manually, I aimed for the first guy shot him down, moved fast to the 2nd guy that is standing beside him, but guess what he got freaked out and moved his head, so I missed, luckily I shot a couple more shots and took him down, but there was a possibility he may bring back up if I were a sec. later, I like how M&E nullify that error I may make.

Also if we talk from the aggressive point of view, M&E support that alot, it is kinda like in Batman, where you can take someone from a gargoyle, move fast to another spot glide to someone else, back to gargoyle, use your disable gun, attack, disappear, ..................etc, fluid, fast, and aggressive, heck you can even use the freezing piece to freeze a couple of guards and take 2 enemies instead of one, making your approach more Fast Paced.

You know I am not sure if you do see the point because I am not that good when it comes to describing and explaining things. The same happened with the narrative, but there I had an example which people could relate to (Deus Ex). M&E or the gameplay loop is pretty much "unique" to the game and I cannot relate to any examples which may clarify what I am about to say. I think M&E can be called as a Stealth focused feature but it also needs the Action element (Stealth-Action-Stealth). The gameplay loop stickied together with M&E do the damage control to ensure that you keep the Undetected status which is important to both archetypes the Ghost and the Panther. The Stealth player will benefit from that whether it's someone who plays a more defensive Panther or someone who is playing really an aggressive one.

yup it seemed we actually don't agree LOL, I kinda disagree, at least to me while M&E indeed serve as a recover feature from the Action ((unintended)) phase, I like it more when it is in the Stealth Phase, hence what I am saying that I personally use it as a stealth feature above all, remember when we said priority is important ?!, it was exactly to avoid being aggressive and reckless, cause a random execute may lead to detection.

It's still an aggressive tool used for defense and damage control. The short time where you get detected is the part where the Execution and the Action loop begins. When you are finished and haven't failed to react, you vanish and get back to Stealth. That's the gameplay loop. Pushing the button at the right time is there to balance out all the advantages you already have (fluidity and gameplay loop). I think I see your point, you don't use the tool in an active way, it's a passive tool which is always available though.

Is it really not in an active way ?!, I feel a defensive way is the passive way, cause let's look at it, the majority of us are big on stealth, you may get detected yes, but it won't be happening alot, while for action player it may be active, Aggro maybe in between, he isn't like using it on every single enemy after another, but rather on key moments and key situations to enforce his pace, but I don't think it is that passive.

Just look at the first scene in the demo. You are in Stealth, you grab the guy, the others detect you, you deal with them with M&E, you are back in Stealth. Well ok you have to deal with the person you interrogate before too. What the team always showed when highlighting the gameplay loop is that it requires you to be detected because that's the only way how it's able to change from Stealth to Action and back to Stealth. That's what the Devs said, but the feature is abuseable because you can use that feature without getting into that loop at all, they don't work together and I think that's not in the interest of the Panther because the aggressive playstyle requires the feature to be stickied strictly to the gameplay loop. Otherwise you abuse. If you use it just in Stealth, to stay in Stealth you abuse it, if you use it just in Action you abuse it. There needs to be that loop, that change-up and M&E should actually just deal with that and I think you have a balanced game. I may be wrong here though, but when having that discussion with Solid for example I felt that M&E is actually not doing that favour it should be doing.

I think that situation is a bad example, cause it is a linear forced situation, you are not showing the player freedom when it comes to M&E, IMO yes the M&E is part of the loop you are mentioning, but it isn't all of it, M&E is used in other ways, again as a stealth tool, actually the devs build M&E to support Stealth, Return to Stealth, and Action situations, let's look at SCC09 demo, first time the M&E was used it was to take out a light and a guard in a stealthy manner, 2nd time it was used from a window to clear the path again in a stealthy manner, then 3rd time it was used after a DFA as a return to stealth, and at the end of the demo it was used as an action feature when Sam kicked that door open, IMO out of these 3 uses, I liked the Stealth use best.

But the gameplay loop is a get-out-of-jail gameplay loop, isn't it? That's the point and so that this get-out-of-jail gameplay loop stickied together doesn't get abused and get overpowered I suggested to require the gamer to push the button at the right time and therefore you will get the skills Sam should be able to pull when you did a mistake.

It is part of M&E function, not all what M&E is about, at least IMO.

Like the Knife, it is supposed to be a stealth tool to cut tents, or break stuff, ............etc, things that won't give you a way, but when you use it aggressively, it is still stealthy, but you leave blood spots, and you got a risk, so it doesn't have just one function, it is multi function.

I think that was a bad example

Well see, I see Aggro Stealth as something that is fluid and aggressive. To me fluid doesn't necessarily mean it needs to be fast though. M&E is so important to him to be able to avoid Action. We don't have deep mechanics in Conviction. The Sound System is missing, variable speed and with that the AI will be much more aware of you when you are using the aggressive approach (because it has his downsides) and that's why I try to sticky the feature to the gameplay loop so you are able to deal with these downsides and do some damage control, because the Panther isn't interested in being detected either.

I see, I see, but there is another side you are missing, they developer kinda introduced a new style of stealth, Fast Paced Stealth, M&E support that, same with C2C movements, and probably even why Sam is climbing in monkey speed and moving in flash speed on pipes.

Indeed SCC was missing quite many things here and there, but introducing them again in SCB may open up alot of possibilities I am interested to see.

Edit: At first when I started that thread I actually had pretty much the same idea about M&E as you, but after I thought about that much more longer I changed my mind because I think being able to use M&E without going through that gameplay loop is pretty much the thing which does make that feature so overpowered in my opinion.

Totally get your opinion, but you know people will criticizes your system too, cause they will feel there is less control about M&E initiation, and feel like the would have grabbed this guy and moved to the shadows fast enough to only raise suspicious and not alarm, but M&E kicked in and screwed that, or there were guards away that the game didn't take into account due to distance which lead to detection either way, especially with the guards density of SCC & SCB.

BTW did you play 007 Blood Stone ?!, it got a similar mechanic to M&E, thought not the same, maybe better ?!, I don't know, I wasn't a good judge since it got Slo-Mo, anyway it works this way, you gain 1 execution with every takedown, you can't mark, instead when you want to execute you press a button, the game kinda get you in slo-mo and aim for the head and you pull the trigger, you repress to shift to the 2nd target and pull the trigger, headshots always, not that bad, yet I didn't like the slo-mo of it.

[sameer_monier]

M&E is a versatile tool, I think it can be beneficial in all play styles and scenarios. I don't think it should be assigned to one particular style by increasing the rewards when using it for that style.

Somebody argued a while back that if M&E is a spy 'skill' then earning it through an action is contradictory. I have to agree, but think that accepting it as a 'game' feature is probably the only way for it to work.


Increasing difficulty by adjusting AI density, awareness, placement and response/performance sounds like the best option to me too. Instead of making the 'skill' harder, make using it harder to profit from. This would balance the feature without breaking it.

I would enjoy an option to turn off the slow mo in SP though, allowing for a quick clean elimination and bypassing the 'movie' feel if desired.

KIM looks like fun. I don't have a problem with earning tokens during aggro action but the response timing of the AI from the point when it 'becomes' aware of Sam, to the point where it raises and fires it's gun IS important, (as pointed out by Andre previously). The window, and accuracy percentage of the shot/counter, should be very short and high respectively when on the hardest difficulty setting.

In the vid Andre, I think we can clearly see that Sam drops 3 of them before they even have a clue. The one at the vehicle does get eyes up but Sam is reasonabley quick enough to get him. Then the other 2 are blindsided again. I think it's a reasonably played out scenario for Rookie. Normal should result in a counter/block at the vehicle and interrupt Sam's flow so he can't earn the token or get over the hood and continue the execute chain.
Instead Sam will have to counter the counter, if he can and hope using dude as a meat shield will buy him a moment or two

The other thing I noticed in the vid is how the environment really looks sharp! The view and the location, the Sun flashes from behind the cloud, the tent flaps in motion and of course the characters and how the AI are going about their business. It all looks very good, even Sam dropping over the wall, which I assume is a momentary cut scene spliced deftly and smoothly within the Player's control. Kind of like co-op door breaching ("help me out"), that pause in control as they bust through and enter the room. Looks REALLY tight in Blacklist.


Anyway, back to Future Soldier for me, I've been on bit of a binge!

Agree with alot of these.

I actually also raised that the response time the guards should increase, we got detected, start firing, I will let it slip in the demo, maybe they weren't trained well, but later on the game we will probably go against better trained guards, being freaked out is totally useless, they need to fire ALOT faster, which will also increase the difficulty of M&E in open areas.

& getting rid of the slo-mo at the end of the execution too, I don't want a cinematic feature, I want a fast and efficient feature.