SCB will have a morality system | Forums

[mateus99]

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news...-Splinter-Cell
I dont know if its going to work that well in sc.its an interesting idea if its done right.
Although the example they give (about a building being a school or a enemy front,what happens if we bomb the place?) it is stupid i mean why would we bomb that place in the first place?splinter cells dont bomb bulidings.we infiltrate them.

What do you think about adding a morality system in the game?i want to see more before i make up my mind.

[sam2000_290]

I love it! Though this was confirmed a while back though. The devs said they are going to have it.

It's just going to be like Double Agent again. I don't know how many people are enthusiastic about this. :/ I am. I am all for it.

However, it doesn't feel right though considering SCB has a faster gameplay. As for the example, I don't get the percentage. Is it how ever percentage ok to blow up the school? It's 65% ok to blow up the school? It's confusing really. And why would you use a school for a stronghold? Maybe if we can get more details then it would be clearer. LOL this keeps reminding me of Operation Flashpoint where in this mission the enemies took over this school and we have capture it back. However, we don't bomb it though.

[CoastalGirl]

So...if I don't blow up the building, it has a chance of becoming either a school or an enemy stronghold. If it becomes a school, fine, but if it becomes an enemy stronghold, do I get to go back and clear it out?

[harbi-117]

"If you want to have true morality in a game," he said, "you cannot link it to mechanics or to a system. Because the player will play the system; he's not going to play the true world choice."

Quoted for Truth... Maxime Béland's awesomeness level just increased in my book

thanks for the link, Mateus.

[Stealthgamer001]

I think when one says "morality system" people think of trust meters and situations like "If I take action X, I'll earn my enemie's trust, but my best friend will get killed and won't live to give me a new weapon upgrade."

I think what they're going for in Blacklist is a series of choices with no gameplay repercussions. Situations as simple as "Do I kill this guy, or let him live?" We've actually seen this kind of thing before in Splinter Cell. Remember the E8-6B crash in Chaos Theory? You can choose to save the pilots or leave them as you call in the airstrike. It doesn't really matter which one you choose. If you save them, you get a few extra lines between Sam and Lambert about Sam doing the right thing without recognition. If you choose to leave them at the site and paint the target, Sam will whisper "God forgive me" right before it explodes.

[bluewolf042000]

I think when one says "morality system" people think of trust meters and situations like "If I take action X, I'll earn my enemie's trust, but my best friend will get killed and won't live to give me a new weapon upgrade."

I think what they're going for in Blacklist is a series of choices with no gameplay repercussions. Situations as simple as "Do I kill this guy, or let him live?" We've actually seen this kind of thing before in Splinter Cell. Remember the E8-6B crash in Chaos Theory? You can choose to save the pilots or leave them as you call in the airstrike. It doesn't really matter which one you choose. If you save them, you get a few extra lines between Sam and Lambert about Sam doing the right thing without recognition. If you choose to leave them at the site and paint the target, Sam will whisper "God forgive me" right before it explodes.

Quoted for truth. Hes right

What I got from it, is that its not a system or meter. Theres no school to blow up, he was just making a hypothetical example that our intelligence guys have to make sometimes. He doesn't want us to feel like were playing a good guy or bad guy, but rather forcing us to use our own discretion in the moment, and ultimately make a choice ourselves.

[sam2000_290]

Isn't morality the whole point of what's good and what's wrong? if it's just up to the player to make decisions without anything being good or bad, is that morality? It would be just the same as whether you kill or knockout when you play. It's really nothing special, just gameplay. Since this is what Maxime Beland is saying. Then it isn't morality at all, just another gameplay feature that lets people do whatever they want.


And the system doesn't have to be a meter of sort, it can be anything. It can be like paragon or a personal meter. Lose morale or something like this that you see in other games. As for the Chaos Theory example, I can see what it means but there should be some kind of repercussion or else it doesn't seem to be morality at all. There should be some kind of karma or consequences.

he's not going to play the true world choice.

What is this world choice he speaks off? Like real life? Real life has consequences. What you do, falls on you.


Either way, if there isn't any kind of impact or some kind of system, it's not really morality or morality system at all. Look at Conviction, you can kill all you want but no repercussion, is that morality at all? Or does the devs want you to feel what you have done? Even so, there should be something visible in game, I doubt many would feel bad. I know in Conviction where I have killed everyone, I don't feel anything. I just feel yes, great stress reliever.


And the school example is really horrible. However, I can see/sense what the devs are getting at. I think there isn't really any kind of repercussion for using school as a stronghold but really how you feel about it. Would you want to use it as a stronghold or would you be a nice guy and make the better choice. And there has to be a good/bad position because only with this, it makes sense of your action or else it's just another mindless action, like whether kill or knockout, that has no importance at all.

Just have to wait and see what actually the game brings.

[mortified13]

And the school example is really horrible. However, I can see/sense what the devs are getting at. I think there isn't really any kind of repercussion for using school as a stronghold but really how you feel about it. Would you want to use it as a stronghold or would you be a nice guy and make the better choice. And there has to be a good/bad position because only with this, it makes sense of your action or else it's just another mindless action, like whether kill or knockout, that has no importance at all.

Just have to wait and see what actually the game brings.

I'm not trying to be rude here and you can correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't know if you quite understand the analogy that Max gave. I think he is talking from an intel standpoint. Let me expound on it a bit.

Lets say 4th Echelon receives intel that shows that there is heavy enemy activity in an area. However, there is also intel that says there is a school in the area. Knowing this, you find a building that has a lot of activity around it. Is it enemy activity, or is it full of school children? Without boots on the ground to observe the activity, how sure are you that its an enemy stronghold or a school house?
Are you 65% sure its enemy? Is that enough for you to bring down the "rain" on that building?

Again, I'm not positive if this is exactly what he meant, but this is what I gathered. Also, if you already knew or understood this, I am sorry. I meant no harm from it. Just trying to help.

[sam2000_290]

I'm not trying to be rude here and you can correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't know if you quite understand the analogy that Max gave. I think he is talking from an intel standpoint. Let me expound on it a bit.

Lets say 4th Echelon receives intel that shows that there is heavy enemy activity in an area. However, there is also intel that says there is a school in the area. Knowing this, you find a building that has a lot of activity around it. Is it enemy activity, or is it full of school children? Without boots on the ground to observe the activity, how sure are you that its an enemy stronghold or a school house?
Are you 65% sure its enemy? Is that enough for you to bring down the "rain" on that building?

Again, I'm not positive if this is exactly what he meant, but this is what I gathered. Also, if you already knew or understood this, I am sorry. I meant no harm from it. Just trying to help.

Well, I guess we're both unsure. So it's fine, no harm done.

The example isn't that great. If there is heavy enemy activity in the area, why would there be children around? I would expect the enemies to hold the children hostage. To gather intel, I would expect someone or Sam to scout out the area or use some kind of satellite. They would scout out the area first before sending an airstrike or something. And what does this have to do with morality. This is still a puzzling issue. Is the devs trying to say that there is no way of spotting what is over there at the school and the only thing you can do is to take it out. So you go with your guts on whether you want to bomb the hell out of that place? Then this is weird and a joke.


Either way, the example is terrible until I can get more sense out of it.

[mortified13]

Well, I guess we're both unsure. So it's fine, no harm done.

The example isn't that great. If there is heavy enemy activity in the area, why would there be children around? I would expect the enemies to hold the children hostage. To gather intel, I would expect someone or Sam to scout out the area or use some kind of satellite. They would scout out the area first before sending an airstrike or something. And what does this have to do with morality. This is still a puzzling issue. Is the devs trying to say that there is no way of spotting what is over there at the school and the only thing you can do is to take it out. So you go with your guts on whether you want to bomb the hell out of that place? Then this is weird and a joke.


Either way, the example is terrible until I can get more sense out of it.

Agreed. Suffice it to say, no one knows what's going on in Max's head.

Also, terrorists will often set up operation next to schools or hospitals because others will be reluctant to attack for fear of creating collateral damage.