Crow's Phase 3 Closed Beta Feedback (now with video and waffles) | Forums

[DegenesisRein]

Crows Phase 3 Closed Beta Feedback

First off I would Like to thank all of the people involved in making GRO the game it is, I am thankful for being apart of the beta and I can't express enough how much I love this game and want it to be the success I know it will.

Most of you know me, as for those that don’t I have a Lvl 26 Assault, Lvl 26 Specialist and a Lvl 30 Recon. Additionally on a separate account I have LvL 5 characters across the board. The reason why I tested characters on a separate account was twofold:

One: Since I was Phase 2 I didn’t have the option of getting both GI weapons, so I wanted to test those out so I good give accurate feedback.

Two: So I could test how competitive newer players could be going against some of the higher level players with all the tricks and equipment. I got to tell you its a little bit frustrating playing as a low level as equipment makes the difference by a long shot. I’m not the best player in the world but I can generally achieve MVP every few matches. During my stay as a low level character I only achieved it twice and I attribute that to rage quitters due to matchmaking.

So on to the good stuff.

This feedback will be presented in categories having a suggested change and followed up by a Justification and reason why I am asking for these changes. Additionally you will find me list a Wish list under the category which just represents something I would like to see in the future but it is not critical.

Mechanics Gameplay

Aside from pushing Sprint Key to cancel reload or to dislodge from cover the only real major issue with the mechanics of the game is the Cover Bug.

COVER BUG

Suggested Change: Fix the 45 Degree interruption when aiming out of cover shown here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QS83a...ature=youtu.be

Justification: The video above is of me continuously firing while sweeping in cover, but when I hit the 45 degree angle it prevents me from firing and re-adjusts my character then continues to fire again. This bug has gotten me killed more times than I can count.

CLOAK

Suggested Change: Make cloak completely invisible but leave foot prints when they walk or standardize the ability to visually detect cloaked individuals.

Justification: Whether it be my eyes or my computer settings (I have tried everything from 1600 x 1200 to 1200x1024 – High, Med, Low settings and everything in between) but, simply put. I can’t see cloak.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2bxh...ature=youtu.be

Once I cloak I can’t even see myself running until I pop back out again.

It’s frustrating that some people can see cloak and some people can’t. Now I’m not disputing that there are exceptionally rare times when I did see a cloaked individual, but those are few and far between and typically occur when the blue moon rises.

Some people claim that if you stand still you can see them better but that is a urban legend as far as my system is concerned, I just can’t see them no matter what I do.

What is the most frustrating is that I can’t see cloaked players and I have to use the tools we have to pick them up (oracle, vector detector, my ears listening for the sound and common sense to spray everything with bullets and anything I can get my hands on to track them down but I can step out of a Dark hallway fully cloaked and get nailed instantly by someone on the other side of the map who’s eye / graphics card / computer system DOES allow them to see cloaked.

I would just like it to be standardized so everyone is on the same playing field.

THROWN BUG

Suggested Change: ???

Justification: There is an odd bug introduced in phase 3 that would occasionally throw your character a large distance up in the air or sideways, not sure what the trigger but I’m pretty sure it revolves around odd cover spots and adjusting your character. Anyways you can end up in some weird spots.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=noQI-...ature=youtu.be

MAPS

The other maps are ok with lots of ways to exit one’s spawn and clear the choke points, however this map is not ok and has the absolute worst choke points in the game.

Korolyov Towers:

Suggested Change: Open up a third drop down point for attacking team. I would recommend opening up a drop down point on the bridge itself between Point A and B and put a panel in the middle so people cannot snipe from bridge to bridge.

Justification: The Fact that there are only 2 points where we can drop down with lots of cover make this map one of the easiest spawn traps in the world and nearly impossible for the attacking team to clear their starting area if pushed back. Also put up some more construction panels to prevent sniping into our spawn zone before attackers are able to jump down. There isn’t a place on this map that you can jump down that the defenders don’t have LOS to from across the MAP.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckHIU...ature=youtu.be

Armor

Woodland Camo

Suggested Change: Change the color of the pants to a lighter green as using that Dark Dark green on the pants looks absolutely horrible

Justification: Funk factor x10 as seen in below picture, also shows the SVDS Grip bug reported below.



Wish List: Allow a player to purchase camo to be equipped. Once you buy a camouflage you unlock it permanently for that particular armor which allows you to change camo if you feel so inclined. However the camo is bound to that particular piece of armor so if you have a MK3 armor camo purchased if you upgraded to a MK4 Armor you would have to re-buy the camouflage.

Sorta Like this:



TITAN ARMOR

Suggested Change: Remove the Speed penalty to Titan Armor keeping your speed at a Flat: 50 for all versions or give a +10% armor increase across the board to all Titan Armor pieces for all classes but keep the speed penalty.

Justification: I wouldn’t say the Titan Armor is useless as it is worse than useless; it’s downright detrimental to your play regardless of class. The Armor bonus of Titan Armor over Hermes armor is so minor that it’s rare that you need anything more than one extra bullet in the most extreme cases like the Assault Armor.

Hermes Armor is so vastly superior to Titan that it’s not even funny how difficult gameplay becomes while wearing Titan armor. This is because in GRO speed trumps all.

Speed increase’s all of your abilities effectiveness:
Cloak: you cover more ground the faster you move
Aegis: you cover more ground while Aegis is up
Blitz: you can move faster while in Blitz
Blackout: You can close faster to use Blackout

The ability to move in this game and move quickly is King. This game has a lot of mechanics based around cover and the ability to move between cover is critical the longer you take the more exposure you have to enemy fire. The ability to soak the occasional extra bullet you soak doesn’t mean much when you got shot twice as much trying to push from cover to cover. Simply put Titan armor isn’t worth it, and it should be.

Wish List: Eventually I would like to see something along the lines of advanced armor that includes whole new armor “look”
I would dub these Atlas armor and Valkyrie armor.

The Atlas and Valkyrie armor would essentially have the same stats as the Titan and Hermes armor but have an upgrade slot much like the MK2 devices. These upgrade slots you could customize your armor to have a special ability attached to them, something along the lines of:

Atlas
- Hardened: + 4 toughness
-Flak Armor: Gain 50 Toughness versus Grenades
-Double Kevlar: Reduce the effects of Flinch from bullet impacts.
Valkyrie
-Light Weight Composite: Climb and move over Obstacles faster
-Easy Access Mags: Reduce Reload by .5 sec
- Combat Sling: Reduce time to switch weapons

Grenades:

Impact Grenades

Suggested Change: Remove them from the game

Justification: Honestly impact grenades create more problems than they solve and truly are not worth the hassle. The ability to one shot kill someone behind cover with zero chance for them to try and save their own life is just flat out cheesy no matter how you try to spin it. Just remove them. Regular grenades get the job done just fine with a third the cheesy-ness.

Weapon Mechanics

Scope sway

Suggested Change: Get rid of Scope sway shown here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FOSH...ature=youtu.be

And shown here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jq64C...ature=youtu.be

Justification: Having the scope detach from the gun itself is very annoying and very distracting which makes little to no sense. We have stability indicators to show us how accurate our shots are going to be, having the scope float around is entirely redundant.

Handling and Stability

Suggested Change: Fix handling so it reflects the innate stability of the weapon itself and is a direct representation of how well the gun handles while on the move as opposed to just being how fast the weapon is ready from a dead sprint.

Justification: It’s no secret I like to run my snipers with Red-Dot’s on them. This is because realistically the ranges we are fighting at there isn’t much justification for using anything other than a Reflex sight to be effective. If we had the option to use Iron sights with snipers I would be using those. The fact that handling only reflects how “Fast” the weapon is ready from a dead sprint is frustrating considering I spend on my RP/GC on getting as much handling as possible.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGJ5M...ature=youtu.be

And as seen here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGUvk...ature=youtu.be

And lastly here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nEdUp...ature=youtu.be

The only time this gun really gains effectiveness is when I am in cover and gain stability which is completely contrary to me putting a Grip and a red-dot on it. So many times I am right on with the red-dot when I pull the trigger and completely miss. Later in the film I do a little better but most of the time I have to over aim as somehow the barrel of my gun is trailing behind my sight which makes hitting anyone accurately while on the move very frustrating.

This issue isn’t STRICTLY limited to Snipers either, I see it a lot with LMG’s as well, but in the case of the LMG you can compensate with automatic fire where precision fails.

What I mean by Stability is how much sway the sight suffers and how responsive the weapon is, for instance if I swing my weapon around and point at something, I expect it to shoot at what I am pointing at (within reason, I don’t expect to make any long trick shots but I do expect to hit a man shaped target 20 feet away).

That is what I mean by Stability as opposed to being fully “STABALIZED” which means you have your maximum critical chance and accuracy.

BI-POD

Suggested Change: Bi-Pod should increase recoil, stability and suffer penalties to Handling (my version of handling which includes stability) outside of Cover but gain massive bonuses to reduce recoil, increase handling (my version again) while in cover.

Justification: The penalties for Bi-Pod are not severe enough. Nothing makes me rage more than paying the RP/GC to get as much handling as possible and still watching people with Bi-Pod’s being able to Run and Gun more effectively. If handling works the way I am requesting it works this would be less of a problem but considering the way it works now a person with a Bi-POD gets massive discounts to recoil (out of cover and even more massive one’s inside of cover) that the really only downside is that it takes you .02 more seconds to ready your weapon from a dead sprint.

The ranges on Handling are simply two mellow. The difference between the same gun with a Bi-Pod versus a Grip needs to be the difference between 50-60 handling.

GRIP

Suggested Change: Increase the amount of Stability and Handling (My version once again) as well as a slight bonus to recoil reduction.

Justification: The pros and cons of the BI-POD / Grip need to be a lot more pronounced. As I mentioned above: The ranges on Handling are simply two mellow. The difference between the same guns with a Bi-Pod versus a Grip needs to be the difference between 50-60 handling.

GUNS

Pistols

PX4

Suggested Change: Increase the damage by 2 points

Justification: The P-45 (If I have my stats correct) has a 15 Round magazine (3 more rounds than the PX4) deals the same amount of damage, has a faster ROF and costs less. At least give the PX4 something more iconic to be remembered by than simply being the biggest waste of money on the market. 2 Damage seems reasonable.

Wish List: I like everyone else would like to see extended Mags and Suppressors for the pistols and in the case of the Redhawk the ability to equip a 1.5x, 3.5x or 4x scope on it.

Snipers

Sentinel

Suggested Change: Change the BI-POD on the Sentinel-1 to be less obtrusive or raise the scopes so they are not impacted.

Justification: The PSO-1, Phantom1x-4x, and most of the Reflex sights are unusable with this gun while it has a Bi-Pod equipped.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIFLP...ature=youtu.be

I hate to ruin a nice looking Bi-Pod but, when looks get in the way of functionality they simply need to go. Trade this out for a lesser unobtrusive BI-Pod or simply raise the optical views so the Bi-Pod isn’t in the way.

Wish List: I would like to lower the damage of the SR-25 and SVD weapons while increasing the ROF up to the 240 ranges and double the ammo pool.

So Basically Crow you are asking us to take some automatic snipers and essentially turn them into Semi-auto Assault Rifles with scopes?

Yes because that is essentially what they are with a wee bit more damage and a wee bit more accuracy. As it stands using all of the Sniper Rifles before the SR-25 are garbage. (say what? )

Now hear me out.

The reason why is simply all the Snipers starting at Lvl 15 have the Best ROF while not having to pull back to cycle the bolt, or the ability to 1-shot kill’s with a body shot.

Lowering the damage of the Auto-Sniper’s down to the 55 (and in the case of the SVD 60’s) range’s put more emphasis on the bolt action snipers ability to deal damage and get kills with headshots. The auto-sniper role would be taken into more of a suppression / counter sniper allowing them to lay down lots of accurate fire but would take 3-5 shots to bring down targets unless they get a critical headshot.

The auto-snipers are so vastly superior to any of the Bolt actions it’s not even funny, so I would essentially like to re-tool them to a more appropriate role that doesn’t put half the sniper rifles in the game to shame.

SVD

Suggested Change: Move the Grip back so it lines up with the avatars hand

Justification: The Grip on the SVD (and all versions that can have it) is too far forward and as such your players avatar is simply holding a fist full of air. Looks…awkward.

SRS

Suggested Change: Change the extended mag's to at least bring the Rounds in the magazine up to 7.

Justification: Paying 900 RP to bring the magazine capacity up from 5 to a whopping 6 is more than amusing. That's like saying "Hey I've got extended mags because loaded one in the chamber."

Submachine Guns

PP2000 – PP-19

Suggested Change: Increase the damage of the PP2000 and PP-19 by 1 point across all versions while reducing recoil.

Justification: The PP2000 much like the PP-19 (you’ll see the same argument below) has a much slower ROF while still maintaining pretty heavy recoil. It doesn’t make sense because other guns with much higher ROF actually have less recoil. When it comes to SMG’s the truth of the matter is: ROF is king.

Damage is good sure but ROF is what wins you fights up close and personal. So rather than try and make the PP2000 and the PP-19 compete with the much faster ROF weapons, lets re-tool these guns to have a different role than up-close and personal apocalyptic destruction like all the other SMGs

Instead let’s turn the PP2000 and PP-19 into the Medium range Submachine guns able to put accurate sustained fire in the medium ranges. They may not have the up-close point blank kill power as all the other SMG’s but at least they have a Role outside of being a Waste of Cash. So what I am aiming for is a Medium Range SMG that has both low recoil (Around 30-40 Recoil) and the ability to make sustained bursts while still being accurate at medium range, all the other SMG's can kill you faster sure, but these gun's role is to be the 'Long-Range" sub machine guns.

MP7

Suggested Change: Decrease the ROF of the MP7 to 850

Justification: As it stands there is no reason to EVER (AND I MEAN EVER) buy the MP7 -C. It costs more, deals less damage and has more recoil. Let the MP7-C be the fastest firing version of the SMG. Let it have that Apocalyptic kill potential up close and personal as it pays for it with its Higher Recoil. Bring the regular MP7 down to the MP7 SD. It just makes sense.

PP-19

Suggested Change: Increase the ROF of the PP-19 SD’s ROF to 750

Justification: As it stands there is no reason to take the PP-19 SD over the SP. Both guns have the same ROF but the SD has a build in Suppressor and no Stock which just gives you tons more recoil. There is no benefit. At least increase the Rate of Fire to fulfill the CQC role of being HIGH ROF, HIGH RECOIL CQC variant.

MP9

Suggested Change: Decrease the ROF of the MP9 to 850

Justification: Just like the Mp7 there is zero reason to take the MP9-C over the regular MP9. This needs to be corrected. Drop the ROF of the Regular MP9 down to 850 to give justification to wanting to use the MP9-C, otherwise it’s just a waste of space and a waste of effort.

P90

Suggested Change: Reduce the ROF of the P90 to 750

Justification: Are we sensing a pattern yet? The P90 does the absolute highest damage of any SMG has a Long barrel and has a ROF of 900. Absurdity! I can’t think of a single reason why you would ever consider taking any of the other two versions. There needs to be one. Hence reduce the ROF of the P90 to 750 ROF as it’s the biggest hitter, the P90 SD has 800 ROF with a Suppressor and the P90-C has the 900 ROF to fulfill its role of being the CQC variant.

LMG

MK5-GI

Suggested Change: Remove the Bi-Pod from the MK5 GI weapon

Justification: Aside from the fact that the MK5 LMG is an absolutely horrible gun and should be avoided at all costs, any newer players trying to use the MK5 GI will find nothing but tears and frustration as the Bi-Pod is completely unnecessary and makes quite potentially the worst handling in the game. I can understand if a person wish’s to put a Bi-POD on the weapon because that’s just the way they roll, but forcing newer players to use this gun with a Bi-pod locked in is pure torture.

M249

Suggested Change: Lower the ROF of the M249 to 950 ROF

Justification: The M249 Para is the up-close and personal gun, let’s keep it that way. It is actually pretty stupid to take the M249 as without the grip you suffer higher recoil and more handling time and it costs exactly the same as the MK 46 mod 0. The MK46 is clearly better bang for the buck over the regular M249 so let’s at least get some variety.

MG4

Suggested Change: Reduce the Reload time down to 3 seconds and give the option to purchase Extended Mags. Extended Mags should give you a 100 rounds and a 6 Second Reload.

Justification: This gun is the bastard of the LMG’s. Every person who has purchased this weapon has regretted it. The 50 round magazine and the 6 second reload simply breaks what would otherwise be considered a decent gun. Lowering the Reload time down to 3 seconds would fix the big problem, but additionally offer the option to purchase a 100 round extended magazine which will bring it back up to par with all the other LMG’s.

Assault Rifles

M27

Wish list: I would easily pay the3-4k RP for the option to add a 50 Round Drum or a C-Mag to the M27 C. Now that would be some fun.

AS-VAL

Suggested Change: Lower the ROF of the VSS down to 750-800 range and drop the recoil significantly.

Justification: This gun is a travesty. High ROF, Low damage, 20 round magazine (30 with extended) and locked into a 4x scope. It has Fail written all over it in large letters. The high ROF and recoil keep this gun from taking advantage of using the 4x scope. It simply cannot be done outside of using Semi-Auto (you can’t even burst it without the recoil reaching for the sky) and using the gun on Semi-Auto is pointless as the damage is so low you are only sniping people for 10-19 damage at long range which blows my mind.

Wish List: The AS-Val is probably hands down my favorite Assault Rifle, even with the train wreck of the VSS I still like it. I would totally pay 3-4k RP to have the option to buy a 40 round extended magazine as the 30 round versions isn’t enough. I want more!

MK16

Suggested Change: Have the MK16 and the ACR switch places on the Tier levels

Justification: The MK16 is arguably one of the best assault rifles in the game, the ACR is a pitiful excuse for a lvl20 gun. Rarely does a game go by where someone (myself included at least once a game) complains about the MK16’s power. I have pictures of the **** gun 1-shoting both my recon and my specialist with crit headshots. It is exceptionally frustrating.




Rather than Nerf this gun for being as powerful as it is at such a low level simply have it change places with the ACR which does less damage has less ROF (except for the C version) and is by far a more reasonable weapon for the Lvl10 Range.

At least now if I get killed by a MK16 I’ll take solace in knowing they had to pay the RP/GC to get it.

SAR-21

Suggested Change: Increase the ROF of the SAR-21 from 450 to 600

Justification: No brainier, what In the world were people thinking and what informed person would ever buy an assault rifle with this low of ROF. *shakes head*

That’s it’s for now Gents!
Take care and feedback is welcome but not necessary =)

[DegenesisRein]

Updated: With pictures now!

As for the photo shopped Armor camouflage page, yes I know the last Camo isn't Technically "Night" but it's the closest I could find with out spending hours looking for it.

Still working on Concept Art of what the new Valkyrie and Atlas armor should look like, as well as a gun or two. =)

-Crow

[Noviwan]

Wow, great feedback ... thanks for taking the time to do this Crow. I will pass it around the design team. Really appreciate it.

[LMV Violation]

I agree with almost everything in here

I don't like the penalty with the bi-pod... lets get real here... bipods are foldaway for most weapons and as shown on the graphics have the spring foldaway system... and that makes the penalty to their handling/stability while moving almost non existent... I would rather see the bipod get a kick up in accuracy *rant about this below in the parenthesis* and the grip get a kick up in handling like you say but their penalties not be as harsh as you suggest...

The secondary weapons with extended AMMO, not mags/clips, would be good for the same price as the weapon... and I have shot a Ruger Super Redhawk .44 with a 4x scope in real life... it would be epic if I could have a Redhawk with a scope in game... fun times and will bring back memories of shooting animal crackers while camping with my dad ^.^

The camo points are okay; however, I think they should cost every change... it makes sense to have to pay when you tailor your gear... each time...

I like the sounds of upgraded armor but would like to see that for level 50 or maybe past level 50... not something at the current levels... I would also like to see it be a freemium perk (Ghost Coins ONLY) as it would give those who financially support the game a benefit while not making it required... and it also gives you a way to make it a visible benefit.

PLEASE MATCH THE CAMO WITH THE GEAR!!! +1

Very well written and I'm glad to see you took the time to truly give feedback and a review of the game... since, after all, that's what closed beta is all about.

(I'm tired of headshots while having full prone for 30 seconds that end up not hitting... when neither me or the other person moved... then the second shot (mine or theirs) gets the kill... I should have the jump with a sniper and a 6x-12x scope and a bipod in a prone position fully scoped in on their forehead with the complete lack in movement on my part so the -> <- indecators say the only place the bullets go is on their head...)

Edit:
Also, if you haven't done this already, you can still submit those bugs with their tracking system and link to the videos... I've done that with a few of the bugs I reported and they are really on-top of using that system to get info and keep you up to date if they need more... Easily accessed via the launcher even while the servers are offline.

[DracoFilia]

Great insightful post, corvus corax. The points are detailed and well thought out, and we really appreciate such contributions from you guys. First things first, a number of the balance issues you mentioned are not intended and are in fact bugs (good catch there!). It seems you have an intuitive grasp of how the variant system is put together, so for the benefit of others I'd like to clarify the variant archetypes here:

The variant system was conceptualized to make weapons that excel in specific combat roles, to suit various gameplay preferences.

Standard: The basic variant, most customizable. Usually has a medium barrel, lowest ROF and all common customizable slots (e.g. scope, laser, etc). Doesn't have a specific designation.

Precision/marksman (SV): The long ranged combat variant. Usually characterized by a long barrel, lowest ROF and comes with a non-removable precision attachment like a bipod. These variants hit harder and more precisely. Often has an SV designation. unless there's a real variant out there that fulfills the role.

Scattershot/Suppression (SP): The middling variant that is not particularly precise, but typically out-guns the standard in raw DPS. Usually characterized by a medium barrel, moderate ROF and doesn't allow bottom attachments. Usually has the SP designation.

Close quarters combat (C): The up close and personal CQC variant excels in handling and sheer DPS. The vertical grip defines this variant, along with a short barrel, high ROF and usually without a stock. While the recoil is often high (with low accuracy as a result), the DPS is sufficient to out-gun the opposition close up. Uses the C designation.

Stealth (SD): The stealth variant has an integrated silencer, with the shortest barrel, low ROF and has no silencer damage penalty because it's integrated. It is usually unable to fit a grip or bipod. Has the SD designation.

You've correctly identified that a number of our variants are incorrect, and we're having a look to see if there's an elegant way to correct them without adversely affecting the gameplay experience of those who have already bought the weapons. Oh, and yes the PX4 was missed in the handgun rebalance pass, so we'll see what can be done about it.

You'll also be happy to know that we're unlocking the scope on the VSS in a coming version, which will allow players to select their favorite scope for the weapon.

As for the other stuff, we're aware of the cover bug, thrown bug and cloak issues and are investigating possible solutions.

The armor lineup is set for the moment, but that does not rule out the possibility of other armor sets in the future.

I'll need to clarify the scope sway as described in your post: I believe you are talking about weapon parallax (weapon "lagging" or shifting from side to side as the player's camera turns) and not sway (aim point "wandering" when the player's aim is steady). The goal of these features is to make the soldier feel more alive, rather than a mechanical turret with no movement at all. Of course, if the values are too extreme it's always possible to investigate a tweak.

The weapon ready time difference between bipods and VFGs is intentional and meant to create a clear difference between the attachments. We've actually tried the handling before as described in the post, and it yielded...interesting results. First it allowed sniper rifles to snap around and nail a rather accurate shot, while other weapons with bipods became laser weapons (for those who remember the early MK16 balance). We've also tried subtler values, but then it became unnoticeable to the players. This is why we didn't do handling as described. There are other avenues to explore, however.

@LMV: We are aware of the (lack of) accuracy issues with sniper rifles. We're currently working on a system to get that fixed, and to reduce snap shooting snipers (those that pop out of cover 1/2 a sec and routinely nail a headshot) in the same move. It'll be in sometime after the next update.

Hope the information helps you guys, and thanks!

[DegenesisRein]

Thx for the feedback and the breakdown of the (Standard, SV, SP, C and SD) I guess a lot of my feedback on the above is based upon information that you are indeed already looking into.

However, bearing that in mind most of my feedback on the weapons themselves was done by asking myself one question "What incentive do I (as the player) have to getting this weapon?"

Most of the feedback was tailored with that in mind as other weapons were (cheaper, more damage, higher Rof, better deals) And in the case of the P90 it was really asking what incentive do I have to take for the "other" two version over the regular P90. (which there isn't one at this point)

(Edit: The root of this problem: "Which gun is Best" stems from the fact that there isn't enough diversity. The only Stats that really matter at this point are ROF and Damage. The solution as I see is considered down below: Accuracy)

I love that you guys build weapons based upon what role you want the weapon to play, and you've defiantly got a job ahead of defining all those Roles while still making each one attractive without being overshadowed by another.

As for adversely effecting players game play experience, *shrug* it's still beta. Feel free to kick around some extreme's. Right now as you mentioned the differences are really too mellow to distinguish weapons. (Edit: Once again solution down below: Accuracy)

The weapon ready time difference between bipods and VFGs is intentional and meant to create a clear difference between the attachments. We've actually tried the handling before as described in the post, and it yielded...interesting results. First it allowed sniper rifles to snap around and nail a rather accurate shot, while other weapons with bipods became laser weapons (for those who remember the early MK16 balance). We've also tried subtler values, but then it became unnoticeable to the players. This is why we didn't do handling as described. There are other avenues to explore, however.

In regards to the above, what I am really getting at is: Weapons that sacrifice everything for the almighty "Handling" should preform like this, able to snap around and make accurate shots (within a certain distance)

I know you mentioned other ways to go about it, and just off hand I can think of two. (Edit: Actually I ditched the second idea, as the first idea was SO good and even fixes my above feed back on the "Roles" of weapons that the 2nd one just isn't worth mentioning)

Handling vs Accuracy

Accuracy - In my mind this is a stat that doesn't get played around with nearly enough. I imagine as developers your kind of hesitant to destroy the balance of the guns, but all I am asking for is leave that up to the players, and here's how:

Simple fix is to implement the handling as you previously (as described above, your version or mine) but consider having attachments that increase Handling to decrease accuracy.

Have the VFG's drop the accuracy of the gun by 10-15 and anything else that increase's handling diminish accuracy.

If I configure my gun to be up close and person CQC weapon to have the best Handling and stability, I should be able to make those snap shots but only at short to medium range as my accuracy penalty for configuring my weapon this way prevents those long-range snap shots from connecting. Even fully stabilized shots yield unpredictable results simply because that's the price I pay to have a CQC weapon.

Here is the added boon (I'm kind of excited about this idea, it has potential) to having these extreme high's and low's configurations. A reason to buy more than one version of a gun.

That gives further incentive for a player to have multiple instances of the same gun and further distinguished the ROLE of the gun itself. So I might have two version of the gun, lets say my MK16-C and my MK16-SV and switch them out depending on where the fight is at over the duration of the map.

It really kind of clears up the other issue of having the MK16-C and being able to put a 4x scope on it and SNIPE just as effectively as the MK16-SV, and visa-versa of having the MK16-SV being able to brawl in a CQC environmental because at this point handling only equals: weapon ready time.

Right now the only stats that matter are Rate of Fire, and Damage. Make accuracy matter.

It's beta feel free to play with the extremes and ultimately let players destroy the balance of guns by configuring the weapon to the way they like it. So If I want to tank my accuracy to gain better handling that's just a risk worth taking, or get accuracy all at the expensive of stability and handling outside of cover: sure, or even use the standard versions of weapons because they are a balance and middle point between the two.

Once again thanks for the feedback, it's obvious I like this game a lot and I am passionate about it. I truly believe it will be one of he best games out on the market, and I'd like to help it get there.

-Crow

[LMV Violation]

Again, agree and agree; however, I don't think you're looking at enough options... I think the readiness is important as well... let me give you a real life understanding of what readiness could be to this game that would help the issue of snipers and long range automatic rifle combat.

If you sit down with a weapon to take a shot at 400 yards (basically a 1/4 mile), in a weapon range, and you have one second to set the weapon up and scope in and fire you're never going to hit the center ring... if you have three seconds you might if you're extremely well trained and everything is committed to muscle memory... if you have 10 seconds and you and the weapon both are able to then you should hit it almost every time...

now taking into respect the game factor I think we want faster play... so I respect that as a 4th important part of the weapon customization and understanding the importance of it suggest that the SV gets kicked up and have it take an extra second to become "accurately ready" but show the scope with a wider -> <- accuracy meter until that second completes and leave the scope in time where it is... so people attempting to quick scope will hit anywhere inside ?60%? of their scopes view until they wait the cool-down period that provides the extra accuracy... at which point the accuracy markers will kick down to only ?15%? of the scopes view over the next ?0.2 seconds (1/5 of a second)? and you are going to get a head shot if you want it. This gives you a distinct benefit for sniping with proper skill thoughts... taking your breath, using a smooth trigger pull and prepping your shot for the break to occur at the right moment...

I think that Crow's points are all 100% valid but I also feel that I do not want another Call of Duty "no-scope haha" game... I highly recommend keeping snipers powerful as they should be and having their limitations as they should... I frankly would like to see a no-scope shot with a scope on a weapon take a 100% accuracy penalty off the top (making it so it's not easy to no-scope with a sniper and less valid to put a scope on a CQC weapon when they should use another site or even iron sights.

Definitely agree with the fact that currently the customization does not change enough as several have stated and I really look forward to seeing where this goes... I'm also excited to see what current changes you have to avoid the quick shot from snipers... Hopefully this doesn't make LMG's the new snipers... excited to see how things play.

[DegenesisRein]

Well i'm not interested in any No-scoping as the cool kids call it. Heck, I would probably stop putting red-dots on all of my snipers if we just had a decent medium range SMG.

Then again i reserve the right to run my gun foolishly. I pay the price for it (in RP, frustration and getting killed all the time, i'm not nearly as effective as the video's let on)

I'd just like the pay-off.

On a different topic:

I get what your say'n V, and what you are referring to is "Stability" or more to the point when your gun is fully stabilized. (Max Accuracy, Max Critical Chance) Your saying have people popping out of cover should only be about 60% stabilized and have to wait a few moments to get 100%

People with bi-pods would still pop out being only 60% Stabilized but would reach full stabilization faster in addition to all the other Bi-pod perks.

I support this idea.

[LMV Violation]

On a different topic:

I get what your say'n V, and what you are referring to is "Stability" or more to the point when your gun is fully stabilized. (Max Accuracy, Max Critical Chance) Your saying have people popping out of cover should only be about 60% stabilized and have to wait a few moments to get 100%

People with bi-pods would still pop out being only 60% Stabilized but would reach full stabilization faster in addition to all the other Bi-pod perks.

I support this idea.

Yes... thanks for making it readable!

[pitsl4yer]

I have to not support the 60% stability for cover popups

there are few reasons to this. one of them being that a single sniper who is covering a zone, prone (out of cover) or already peeked out of cover for any length of time will be absolutely fearless. because he cant be shot or countersniped. Unless you countersnipe with a cloak, which takes away from overall teamwork, and even then the blur will still get you killed. The way you describe the stability, he can take out several targets before they can even shoot back with a prayer of hitting him.

No. the only way to keep this balanced is to make that 60% stability last for under a second, so you have the time to kill the camper unless he is on his toes. otherwise what you describe is WAY to long, and you will never get to clear the sniper lanes in either direction. EVER.