Sam's History | Forums

[FrankieSatt]

It's true that Sarah has a greater bond than Enrica. And yes, it would seem so that he wouldn't be a maniac for finding out Enrica's killer/mole. Finding Enrica's killer may take a while because there are a lot of Splinter Cells, lol.

If you were to assume that his daughter is dead, then finding the mole, lover killer, and his daughter's killer would add an even greater challenge, perhaps he may be more brutal, though this is what it should have been. However, b/c Enrica was killed by Sam, it didn't happen.

You might have killed Enrica, I didn't. I spared her life in Double Agent and that is how my version goes.

[sam2000_290]

You might have killed Enrica, I didn't. I spared her life in Double Agent and that is how my version goes.

Ah, ok, well, it's been a while since I played the next gen version so I don't remember clearly. I just remembered when I grabbed her.

Then all the more reason for DA storyline to impact Conviction and Enrica may be alive in SC6.

Let's just see what characters are revealed in the game.

[oO_ShadowFox_Oo]

I'm not picking apart your posts, because I agree with practically everything you say, particularly the progression of Sam through the series, but...

When Grim contacted him in Malta with a line to Sarah's killer it was easy to drop the charade and do what he has always instinctively been the best at. He embraced his skills and just killed, looking for redemption, revenge or just wanting to hurt someone who deserved it. The killer (his true nature) was liberated and Sam stood by and let him run free.

This is a great description - and accurate.... for Malta.

After that, I can't buy that the "raw, skilled, inner killer" would still be unleashed. As soon as he finds out Sarah is alive, his attitude and priorities would change completely & immediately.

Being completely outnumbered and totally out gunned, survival, covertness and evasion would be the name of the game.

I'm not saying he would not kill, because at times eliminating the threat is the best way to ensure survival, but putting himself in a situation where he is cornered and getting bum rushed by waves of guards is definitely not something Sam would do.

OR fighting a helicopter.

In SCC it is hard to see what keeps driving Sam after finding Sarah alive, but the whole ordeal is occurs over what appears to be a short time frame and the level of the threat to the U.S is more immediate than Sam has ever seen. So with him still being off balance from all the mind fudging he goes through in C, I kind of get why his decisions are perhaps erratic or contradictory some times.
To me, it was the episode where we had the most chance of losing Sam to the dark side I never forget that Sam, no matter how endearing, is a man that kills for a career. He IS a killer, whether those actions are justifiable or not, the effect on his psyche from doing it for so many years has to have a lasting effect.

I read this and think "Wow, what a great explanation for how Sam acted in Conviction", and it would be....

There is no doubt Sam is a killer.

And I can certainly see the emotional roller-coaster leading up to (and during) conviction pushing Sam into making some bad EMOTIONAL decisions. Killing the WRONG person. Lashing out at the WRONG people. Blaming people for HIS problems. Getting confused by his friends BETRAYING him. Maybe even picking the WRONG side momentarily.

This is all great in THEORY, but the problem is that none of this happens.

What we get instead is incongruence with Sam's character as a professional, methodical, ELITE killer. These are all minor, sloppy details that depict him as your traditional, reckless, invincible hero, who doesn't need to care for the details (like a pro would) because the enemy will always miss him and he'll always hit them with a single bullet.

(obviously, that's not the gameplay situation, but that's how Sam is depicted: Walking away from explosions, taking on a helicopter, fighting off waves of 20-30 guards single handedly etc...)

Emotions get in the way of macro-level emotional driven decisions - but changing the tactical, mechanical, elite warrior behaviour that we expect from Sam?

Not on your life!

[SolidSage]

I'm not picking apart your posts, because I agree with practically everything you say, particularly the progression of Sam through the series, but...

Not a problem, I appreciate good feedback.

This is a great description - and accurate.... for Malta.

After that, I can't buy that the "raw, skilled, inner killer" would still be unleashed. As soon as he finds out Sarah is alive, his attitude and priorities would change completely & immediately.

Being completely outnumbered and totally out gunned, survival, covertness and evasion would be the name of the game.

I'm not saying he would not kill, because at times eliminating the threat is the best way to ensure survival, but putting himself in a situation where he is cornered and getting bum rushed by waves of guards is definitely not something Sam would do.

I agree that after finding Sarah the reasonable choice would have been to call it a day and leave together, but Grim knows Sam well enough to know that he won't walk away when his Country needs him the most, no matter what the cost. And she was VERY manipulative.
He spent 3 years (or was it more) hiding out and accepting Sarah's death and then all that turns out to have been a joke at his expense. The anger and frustration, that he has rarely shown finally made it to the surface. What I am suggesting is that a man with such a violent past, might become something very different when his mind and emotions are forced into an unnatural state of being. You're correct, Sam doesn't lose control, doesn't act reckless. So when something managed to push him to that point, who knows what kind of animal will emerge?
I think after the reveal of Sarah being alive, Sam couldn't just release the demon, he was in it's grip, at the center of a vortex where he really was struggling to maintain a grip on things.

Basically, I think Sam could step off the ledge. Finding a way not to crash on the way down is much harder than planning it before you jump...or get pushed.

OR fighting a helicopter.

Well, it's certainly out of character for the series, I'll give you that, but a Sam's gotta do what a Sam's gotta do. When the Helo shows up Sam isn't (IMO) going to say "Oh no, throttle back shotgun, I don't DO helo's. I'm out." He may have found a better way around it than going head to head for sure, but games have limits and walls and parameters and SCC had a desire to push the action.

I read this and think "Wow, what a great explanation for how Sam acted in Conviction", and it would be....

There is no doubt Sam is a killer.

And I can certainly see the emotional roller-coaster leading up to (and during) conviction pushing Sam into making some bad EMOTIONAL decisions. Killing the WRONG person. Lashing out at the WRONG people. Blaming people for HIS problems. Getting confused by his friends BETRAYING him. Maybe even picking the WRONG side momentarily.

This is all great in THEORY, but the problem is that none of this happens.

What we get instead is incongruence with Sam's character as a professional, methodical, ELITE killer. These are all minor, sloppy details that depict him as your traditional, reckless, invincible hero, who doesn't need to care for the details (like a pro would) because the enemy will always miss him and he'll always hit them with a single bullet.

(obviously, that's not the gameplay situation, but that's how Sam is depicted: Walking away from explosions, taking on a helicopter, fighting off waves of 20-30 guards single handedly etc...)

Emotions get in the way of macro-level emotional driven decisions - but changing the tactical, mechanical, elite warrior behaviour that we expect from Sam?

Not on your life!

Walking away from explosions is very Hollywood action movie I agree. I didn't dislike it, but I am sure I would have been fine without it too.
The waves of 20-30 guards was really only in Last Stand, and that wasn't Sam, it seemed to me that the rest of the time it was groups of 2 to 7 with loners in between. Granted the total kill count available was extremely high, he did (have the option) to lay out 20-30 guards in stages and that is easy to see as being completely unrealistic. But so were a lot of the things that happened in SCC, and a lot of the things that happened in DA and the other Legacy titles. Not as much in earlier games, I concur, but most of it was still relatively implausible.

As I said earlier in this post, I find it believable that even Sam, our super locked on MVP can lose his grip on reality...and that creature could have been VERY scary to behold. But instead, SCC shows that no matter how far he is pushed, he still has a good amount of rationale controlling his actions (auto pilot).

Shadowfox, I accept the story that SCC tried to tell us about Sam, and I put a spin on it that may or may not have been the intent, but keeps Sam MY Sam. I honestly liked him a lot in Conviction, there was something more human there for me...less video game super hero, in spite of the outlandish action hero game play that was available and somewhat urged.

[The_5_Freedoms]

As much as how that would be fun, but it brings in some ethical issues. On the next gen, it clearly show Sam has a relationship with Enrica, some kind of fling, especially at the end of the second JBA mission. However, on the old gen it was a bit hard to see that.

Yeah it wasn't explicitly shown like in Version 1 (but that wasn't even a romance anyway), but it was subtly hinted at in dialogue and certain cut scenes (especially the end).

The problem is, well, if Sam is fighting for Enrica because of their relationship, it seems kind of "cheating" and obviously a betrayal to Sarah, should Sarah have been dead, even alive, it's a betrayal as well.

How would it be a betrayal to Sarah?

She's dead, killed by a drunk driver.

It's also a betrayal to his wife.

Sam's wife died like ten years ago and they were already divorced for a significant period of time before that.

Unless, their relationship is professional and just friendship without any kind of romance, then I can see that but I have always seen some kind of love relationship with one another. Then it brings up the situation with Jamie. I am really upset that Jamie has to die. I don't see Jamie really want to kill Sam, because they bled together and they are friends for life because that's the kind of person he is. Why did Sam has to use Jamie and kill him? I see some brotherly love together, probably not as much as Vic Coste.

Well Jamie did think Sam was his friend, but that doesn't make Jamie a good guy. He was still a terrorist and a convicted felon.

Also his profile description said this:

"Jamie is a study in contrasts. On the one hand, he's generally cheerful and easy-going around the people he likes. Once he decides he likes someone, he's a friend for life, unswervingly loyal. On the other hand, he's a vicious, cruel man who enjoys inflicting violence on other people, especially those who can't fight back."

Finding Enrica's killer may take a while because there are a lot of Splinter Cells, lol.

Sam already killed the Splinter Cell responsible for Enrica's death. He hid in the snow waiting for the Splinter Cell and then popped out and cut his throat.



He was supposed to go after Williams but then Old Conviction was scrapped and they changed the story and made up the conspiracy with Sarah.

If you were to assume that his daughter is dead, then finding the mole, lover killer, and his daughter's killer would add an even greater challenge, perhaps he may be more brutal, though this is what it should have been. However, b/c Enrica was killed by Sam, it didn't happen.

Well now hold on it was never confirmed that Sam killed Enrica.

[FrankieSatt]

Ah, ok, well, it's been a while since I played the next gen version so I don't remember clearly. I just remembered when I grabbed her.

Then all the more reason for DA storyline to impact Conviction and Enrica may be alive in SC6.

Let's just see what characters are revealed in the game.

Actually there are 2 ways to kill her. You can frame her for the destruction of the cruise ship and Emile shoots her, I didn't do that. If you don't frame her the last JBA mission you can grab her and then force her to open the door, or you can kill her or you can walk up to her and talk to her. She won't attack you like the others and will help you because she wants out. This is of course the 360 version.

[sam2000_290]

@The_5_Freedoms

How would it be a betrayal to Sarah?

She's dead, killed by a drunk driver.

I was talking about being loyal to your family, no matter death or alive. In western society, it's ok to get divorces and move on, but from my point of view and from an ethical point of view, one should be faithful to his spouse and daughter whether dead or alive. For me, I certainly wouldn't remarry if my wife is...

Well Jamie did think Sam was his friend, but that doesn't make Jamie a good guy. He was still a terrorist and a convicted felon.

Also his profile description said this:

"Jamie is a study in contrasts. On the one hand, he's generally cheerful and easy-going around the people he likes. Once he decides he likes someone, he's a friend for life, unswervingly loyal. On the other hand, he's a vicious, cruel man who enjoys inflicting violence on other people, especially those who can't fight back."

Yes, I know Jamie is a bad guy but I am just saying because they are both friends and for this, based on his profile, Jamie wouldn't kill Sam. They would continue to be friends, friends for live. He wouldn't go around killing Sam or inflicting pain on him, because they are friends. lol a bromance.

As for finding Enrica's killer, I was replying to FrankieSatt's idea. Though yes, the SC has been killed at the time. I don't know how many times I have watched that video/cutscene, just so good.

As for killing Enrica, I forgot, I only remembered when I killed her or grabbed her. Now I remember you didn't have to kill her. Thanks for the reminder.

@FrankieSatt

See starting with the boat missions, all the decisions should impact the series especially when it deals with characters that may be alive or not. I did all 3 possibilities, kill her, don't bloat up the ship and frame her.

And certainly the old gen DA had more emotional and dialogue with Enrica. Didn't seem so with the new gen except for some romantic happening in JBA.

All in all, it was a great game.

[sam2000_290]

I think I can justify Sam's behaviour. Sam has gone more brutal. For one thing, when you give Sam the freedom and un-restrict him, he does what is more natural to him. And killing can be necessary at times. There is no true "non-lethal" moments.

And I have also accepted SC's future. Indeed, Splinter Cell Blacklist would be a fun game. It's an action game and I am going to like it. Action does not mean, go rambo, etc. but "action" as in like action film, more excitement, more fun. That doesn't mean stealth is not there. That doesn't mean I have given up on the old stealth features, I still love them but I would continue to love the new additions. Like I have said before, that's what the old games are for, for you to replay and feel nostalgic again. The world is not getting any younger, things are changing, I accept. If the devs want to carry out a more action, more fast tactical/stealth game, so be it. I am all for it. As long as, stealth still remains and the storyline is more compelling, that's all I look for. Replaying these old SC games, makes me feel good. They were good on their own. They can be better but they are enjoyable. I haven't "personalized" those games yet but when I do, I know I would enjoy them very much. Either way, I replay them, that's what they are for. They are fun and I play them. I have also watched a few movies and shows and they are really good. They inspire me to look forward to new SC without sacrificing the old games. I have also given it some thought. My favorite game is SC1 anyways.

There's no time to keep complaining or fret about it. It's pointless for me. Just enjoy what you got. The old games are there. There are lots of things I want to do in my life and it doesn't hurt to try new things in Splinter Cell games.

So devs, you can add another returning customer to your list. I know I would enjoy the game very much and help you stop the Blacklist. I very much want to see the future of Splinter Cell franchise. Have fun making Splinter Cell Blacklist! This is what makes Splinter Cell unique and innovative!