The Third Option: Not retiring Sam, but not making him ageless either. | Forums

[The_5_Freedoms]

Reboot. That word has been thrown around a lot, in regards to Blacklist.

I thought about the implications of that word and developer comments that they want to make Sam a timeless icon. There have been objections to making Sam an ageless character to appear in games for future generations, saying that they betray the original concept of the character, which was to be a deconstruction of the forever young James Bond spy archetype and "not some young goofball that you see in your typical shooter". They've been countered with the response that Sam is too good a character to kill off or retire. But then there's also a lot of people also don't identify Blacklist Sam as the Sam Fisher they knew in previous games, either because he's not voiced by Michael Ironside or because he's acting out of character, or other reasons.

Well, there's a way to solve all of those problems.

Total continuity reboot.

Probably the easiest example to explain here is Batman. He's been reimagined and rebooted in various media, comic books, television shows, films and video games. They didn't all share the same continuity, but they all involved familiar characters (Batman, Commissioner Gordon, Joker, etc.) and themes (crime-fighting, living a double life, etc.). Character interpretations were sometimes different and so was the tone, but that's okay because they weren't meant to be the same continuities anyway. It allowed for more creativity and to take the series in different directions.

So, in relation to Splinter Cell, I think a reboot would involve restarting from scratch so that:

• Sam is now 40, old enough to be experienced and mature, but not so that old age is an issue.
  
• He's a veteran of the more recent War in Afghanistan and Second Gulf War, rather than the First Gulf War.
  
• He has just recently retired from the Navy, rather than coming out of eight years of retirement.
  
• His wife is alive and married to him, not divorced and dead. (Let's explore new relationships.)
  
• His daughter is in high school.
  
• There's a new threat to the world. (Not the same as the first game, we don't need a remake.)
  
• Irving Lambert is alive and director of Third Echelon, which was newly-formed in response to the threat.
  
• Shetland is attached to Third Echelon as an associate and as Sam's friend. He can be a wild card, secretly instigating proxy wars and organising terrorist attacks behind Sam's back, or he could be like Victor Coste, the guy who Sam goes to when he's in serious need of help. Or both.
  
• Grim is communications lead.
  
• Brunton is an agency associate and director of SHADOWNET.
  
• Coen and Redding are field runners.
  
• Lambert and Shetland convince Sam to join Third Echelon after he retires from the Navy.
  
• We meet all the characters again for the first time, obviously except for Regan and Sarah, and Lambert and Shetland who met Sam in Afghanistan and Iraq.
  
• Call it Splinter Cell Redefined, a pun on Stealth Action Redefined.

So, let's see the problems it solves:

• Sam stays in Splinter Cell as the protagonist.
  
• He's also not ridiculously old to be doing the things a Splinter Cell does. He can move faster and be deadlier because he's younger and still fresh from being a SEAL.
  
• Lambert lives again as Sam's friend and director of Third Echelon.
  
• Redding and Coen return after being mysteriously absent.
  
• Different character interpretations are justified. It's okay if Sam acts a little reckless or gung-ho, or if Lambert reminds you that your gun is important and it's there to be used. It's not the same characters from Chaos Theory and Conviction.

Thoughts? Is this a good idea?

[sameer_monier]

^^ I like this suggestion so much, I found the new possibilities you want us to experience really interesting, I say again this is a very good idea.

I think the one bad thing, in SCC the Devs introduced Megiddo, and never followed through with it, it remain to be seen if Megiddo is playing a role in SCB or not, but if it is, and we can end the story of Megiddo, a reboot would be cool afterwards.

Opinion: I would like Shetland to be a SC Agent like Sam Fisher, maybe join the field later, so Sam always be the 1st SC Agent.

[noodlenerd]

Interesting, but I think a simple reboot is out of the picture. I think that for a lot of people, simply rebooting the story would be too much of a change, and you might aswell just enter an entirely new protagonist.

I do like some of the suggestion that you've made, though. I've also thought about a few of the same things, and I have made some changes to Sam "headcanon" for myself... At least I'm doing it as a sort of retcon for myself in case Sam appears younger in Blacklist than in Conviction, which it seems he will. In a sense, I guess they will have to retcon him anyway, if they are to make him a "timeless icon"...

- Sam is now 40, old enough to be experienced and mature, but not so that old age is an issue.

- He's a veteran of the more recent War in Afghanistan and Second Gulf War, rather than the First Gulf War.

- He has just recently retired from the Navy, rather than coming out of eight years of retirement.

These things are already headcanon to me personally (though I picture Sam being around 45 yrs of age) I'm basically pretending that he was in his late thirties in SAR. I also think this might have been why the Conviction team didn't date the Iraq mission in conviction: You can't have Sam around for much longer unless you retcon him, right?

His wife still dead, his daughter around 20-22. So basically, Sam has still done a lot, only real things that has changed in my head are dates. Not that many years in between all of his missions and tours of duty. Other than that, everything is the same.

It should be mentioned that I never read the books though, so Sam is pretty much defined by the games only, and as such, it is easier to retcon him.

In my head this solves pretty much everything, though I of course still wish I didn't need to do a personal retcon to be comfortable with my favourite protagonist... :/

[Dieinthedark]

I really like this idea. I think it would serve as an interesting way to have a new spin on the franchise we love. I mean lets be honest here, I would FAR rather have this than have an out of place Sam Fisher being pushed onto us as a character. I just have a feeling that playing Blacklist I'll want to be like, "okay this is a cool character named Sam" (but not the Sam Fisher we know/love) and Ubi is going to be so adamant they're going to force it down our throats that no, this Sam Fisher now, isn't he awesome!?



I prefer your idea.

[BoBwUzHeRe1138]

The idea is reminiscent of Casino Royale, how they rebooted James Bond. Made it a bit darker, more realistic, didn't do the standard opening, etc. They kept what made Bond, Bond but did a lot of reworking. I wouldn't be opposed to this.I'd prefer if Sam was more like.....44, 45 though. I really do like the old guy thing. Unrealistic maybe but it's this certain degree of fiction+bada$$ery I'm fond of.

As for everything else. That might be cool.

I think if they started over, Shetland should run Displace in the first couple games. Then at some point he is brought onto 3E in order to help out with a new crisis where Displace is involved. Nedich is thought to be setting a coup to take over Displace when in reality, it's Shetland. I don't think they should make him a part of 3E.

I like his wife being alive. Maybe they could get a divorce or something sometime in the series? Then have them caught in an area where terrorists were attacking? That way you get a Conviction-y story where he's after his mother and daughter so it's personal but it's also not personal exactly because the terrorists have no idea who Sam Fisher is nor that these two are related to him. They just got a bunch of hostages. Then we could have a really sad scene where his wife is killed and he has to save his daughter before they kill her as well. :C

But anyway....yeah. Not sure if I love this idea or just like it more than soiling the original version...

[sam260689]

This seems like a good idea but it would mean releasing several games before getting back to the point in the story that we are already at. It's been 10 years, we've come too far to throw that away.

The best suggestion I've seen is to have Sam now in the Lambert position, and a new early-mid thirties agent in Sam's place. It's got to happen at some point because Sam will get laughably old eventually, might as well make the change now. But I really can't see Ubi doing that. Alternatively, as has been suggested, make Sam timeless...but even that seems a bit strange considering he's never been timeless before.

[The_5_Freedoms]

^^ I like this suggestion so much, I found the new possibilities you want us to experience really interesting, I say again this is a very good idea.

Thanks.

I think the one bad thing, in SCC the Devs introduced Megiddo, and never followed through with it, it remain to be seen if Megiddo is playing a role in SCB or not, but if it is, and we can end the story of Megiddo, a reboot would be cool afterwards.

Hmm… I didn't think of Megiddo. You're right that it should be dealt with before a reboot.

Opinion: I would like Shetland to be a SC Agent like Sam Fisher, maybe join the field later, so Sam always be the 1st SC Agent.

Well that's an option for a reboot. It doesn't necessarily have to follow previous games so you can have situations like that.

Interesting, but I think a simple reboot is out of the picture. I think that for a lot of people, simply rebooting the story would be too much of a change, and you might aswell just enter an entirely new protagonist.

I also favor the idea of newer, younger, less-experienced protagonist.

I think it would be pretty cool to play as a protégé like Ding Chavez in the earlier Clancy novels.

I do like some of the suggestion that you've made, though. I've also thought about a few of the same things, and I have made some changes to Sam "headcanon" for myself... At least I'm doing it as a sort of retcon for myself in case Sam appears younger in Blacklist than in Conviction, which it seems he will. In a sense, I guess they will have to retcon him anyway, if they are to make him a "timeless icon"…

"Headcanon"? That sounds like something out of Nineteen Eighty-Four.

These things are already headcanon to me personally (though I picture Sam being around 45 yrs of age) I'm basically pretending that he was in his late thirties in SAR. I also think this might have been why the Conviction team didn't date the Iraq mission in conviction: You can't have Sam around for much longer unless you retcon him, right?

Their handling of the issue really confuses me.

Like you said they don't mention dates but if you're keen and attentive you can still work out the years anyway.

His wife still dead, his daughter around 20-22. So basically, Sam has still done a lot, only real things that has changed in my head are dates. Not that many years in between all of his missions and tours of duty. Other than that, everything is the same.

Actually Sam's daughter is closer to 26. She was 22-23 in Double Agent.

Unless you meant that as headcanon...

It should be mentioned that I never read the books though, so Sam is pretty much defined by the games only, and as such, it is easier to retcon him.

Game Sam always came before Book Sam, although sometimes Book Sam had details that made their way to Game Sam.

In my head this solves pretty much everything, though I of course still wish I didn't need to do a personal retcon to be comfortable with my favourite protagonist... :/

Yeah retcons are always unfavorable. They have ripple effects that affect everything else in the series.

I really like this idea. I think it would serve as an interesting way to have a new spin on the franchise we love. I mean lets be honest here, I would FAR rather have this than have an out of place Sam Fisher being pushed onto us as a character. I just have a feeling that playing Blacklist I'll want to be like, "okay this is a cool character named Sam" (but not the Sam Fisher we know/love) and Ubi is going to be so adamant they're going to force it down our throats that no, this Sam Fisher now, isn't he awesome!?



I prefer your idea.

Thanks.

I think Eric Johnson could be Sam Fisher but not as long as people point back to Conviction and Chaos Theory and say that's who he's meant to be and what he's supposed to sound like.

If you remove that by rebooting then people can't complain. It would be like complaining that that Ledger's Joker isn't Nicholson's Joker, it doesn't matter because they're different Jokers anyway.

The idea is reminiscent of Casino Royale, how they rebooted James Bond. Made it a bit darker, more realistic, didn't do the standard opening, etc. They kept what made Bond, Bond but did a lot of reworking. I wouldn't be opposed to this.I'd prefer if Sam was more like.....44, 45 though. I really do like the old guy thing. Unrealistic maybe but it's this certain degree of fiction+bada$$ery I'm fond of.

As for everything else. That might be cool.

Yeah that's what I was going for.

Even with James Bond, which had the timeless icon thing, they thought it was a good idea to reboot because the +30 years of Bond never ageing was wearing thin the suspension of disbelief. Also it was getting hard keep track of what had happened and the links between the more recent films to the earlier films were tenuous at best.

Now we have the Craig Bond, which is different but I think a valid, refreshing reinterpretation of the character (and one of my favorites).

I think if they started over, Shetland should run Displace in the first couple games. Then at some point he is brought onto 3E in order to help out with a new crisis where Displace is involved. Nedich is thought to be setting a coup to take over Displace when in reality, it's Shetland. I don't think they should make him a part of 3E.

I think it would be really interesting to explore the idea of having a government agency and a PMC work together for joint covert operations.

I like his wife being alive. Maybe they could get a divorce or something sometime in the series? Then have them caught in an area where terrorists were attacking? That way you get a Conviction-y story where he's after his mother and daughter so it's personal but it's also not personal exactly because the terrorists have no idea who Sam Fisher is nor that these two are related to him. They just got a bunch of hostages. Then we could have a really sad scene where his wife is killed and he has to save his daughter before they kill her as well. :C

Well I put that idea of his wife being alive out there because I think it would be interesting to explore, so your idea here is definitely a possibility.

[codenameeric]

I would LOVE a reboot, but only if it stayed true to SAR and CT. So, I guess that's not entirely a reboot - it's more of a reset.

The best thing Ubi could do, in my opinion, is have all new games take place between SAR and the period just before DA. Sam could have an infinite number of missions during that time. I guess the only problem, though, is that Clancy stories are traditionally set in the future.

So... They could start over by remaking SAR and setting it in today's near future. I'd want it to start the same way, with Sam becoming the first Splinter Cell agent as a seasoned veteran. His age matters a lot. I would want the devs to approach it as if they were the original team making it with today's technology.

HOWEVER, if they ever reboot Splinter Cell, they better go back to stealth gameplay and abandon the M&E gameplay loop. They can continue the Conviction-style gameplay if they want, but as a spinoff with different characters. My understanding is that the people who like Conviction care more about gameplay than stories, so I don't think they'd mind. Heck, they could make Blacklist a Spinoff right now. Everything's new anyway and that type of conflict is so generic you could replace every character and it would make no difference.

Example: Take all legacy characters out of Blacklist but start the story the same way, with the President shutting down all agencies like 3E. She assembles a new team and recruits a fictional Navy Seal or Splinter Cell who was instrumental in the death of Bin Laden, since no one could hunt down terrorists better. To explain why this character never made the news, make him an unsung hero who performed a critical, secret role like Sam used to do. Bam! You'd have the same game with characters that make sense, and most important of all, Splinter Cell would be free to be Splinter Cell again.

BTW - Batman was a brilliant reboot. However, Conviction was essentially a reboot, too, and you know how I feel about Conviction. So, that's why I'm dubious although I love the idea in theory. Also, I would NOT want the current team to reboot Splinter Cell. Never, ever, ever. Because from what I've seen, their passion lies elsewhere. They could continue making Conviction-style stuff, and so they should.

Clint Hocking and the rest of the original team are the only people who could reboot Splinter Cell properly, in my opinion. Actually, Bioware could probably do it...

[NightGhost1994]

I like your idea, but at the same time, I dislike it a lot.

Sam is now 40, old enough to be experienced and mature, but not so that old age is an issue.

If Ubi wanted to make Sam aging, then they would probably introduced him as a younger guy. That's what Kojima did with Solid Snake and in close future we have an Old Snake (tnx to an accelerating aging) who is a true vet.

He's a veteran of the more recent War in Afghanistan and Second Gulf War, rather than the First Gulf War.

If this would be true, than Sam wouldn't sneak or he will be learning to sneak. The game would probably lead more towards the shooter, have missions like Seoul, Kinshasa, Iraq and airstrike would be a perfect choice. That's why he was a CIA agent before joining 3Ech.

Btw you forgot Vernon Wilkes.

His daughter is in high school.

Well we don't know anything about Sarah's background from SC1 till SCC. She could be on college during the Con story.

His wife is alive and married to him, not divorced and dead.

If Ubi does that, then they will have to reboot 6 novels as well.

He's also not ridiculously old to be doing the things a Splinter Cell does. He can move faster and be deadlier because he's younger and still fresh from being a SEAL.

Ok that's for SC Redefined, but what about sequels? If Sam is trully getting older, then he will be much slower than he is in SC Redefined, which means that will get slower and slower and probably won't be able to do what he does now or what he did earlier.

Finally MGS series have something that SC don't and that is the beginning. They began with Solid Snake, later mentioned the 1st Snake - Naked Snake or Big Boss, which is their father, because all the clones are made from his dna and finished it with Old Snake, who became Solid after a fight with Liquid, who also turned back into Ocelot.
What Ubi can do is work on Sam's past, as they did for Essentials and connect that past to the SCB or SC7.
Having more SC agents and kicking Sam out of the story of the next Splinter Cell would be stupid.

And NO, I don't want to reboot the series.

I just found it on SC wikia

[The_5_Freedoms]

I would LOVE a reboot, but only if it stayed true to SAR and CT. So, I guess that's not entirely a reboot - it's more of a reset.

You mean to reset the series from the beginning with SAR/CT gameplay?

The best thing Ubi could do, in my opinion, is have all new games take place between SAR and the period just before DA. Sam could have an infinite number of missions during that time. I guess the only problem, though, is that Clancy stories are traditionally set in the future.

In Essentials they had a mission where Sam was stationed in Colombia in 1992 with the U.S. Navy. His unit commander was kidnapped by FARC guerrillas and he defied orders to go rescue him.

It played exactly like a Splinter Cell game, except you had a regular rifle instead of the SC-20K and there was no option to pick locks.

Like you said though, the only problem is that it's set in the past. But exploring the 1980s Cold War atmosphere could be very interesting for Splinter Cell.

So... They could start over by remaking SAR and setting it in today's near future. I'd want it to start the same way, with Sam becoming the first Splinter Cell agent as a seasoned veteran. His age matters a lot. I would want the devs to approach it as if they were the original team making it with today's technology.

Do you mean a literal remake? Like remaking everything the way it was in SAR and without Mark & Execute, Last Known Position, etc.

HOWEVER, if they ever reboot Splinter Cell, they better go back to stealth gameplay and abandon the M&E gameplay loop. They can continue the Conviction-style gameplay if they want, but as a spinoff with different characters. My understanding is that the people who like Conviction care more about gameplay than stories, so I don't think they'd mind. Heck, they could make Blacklist a Spinoff right now. Everything's new anyway and that type of conflict is so generic you could replace every character and it would make no difference.

The purpose of a reboot is to do different things and I think that would involve expanding on Conviction gameplay, not going back to old gameplay.

Example: Take all legacy characters out of Blacklist but start the story the same way, with the President shutting down all agencies like 3E. She assembles a new team and recruits a fictional Navy Seal or Splinter Cell who was instrumental in the death of Bin Laden, since no one could hunt down terrorists better. To explain why this character never made the news, make him an unsung hero who performed a critical, secret role like Sam used to do. Bam! You'd have the same game with characters that make sense, and most important of all, Splinter Cell would be free to be Splinter Cell again.

I like this idea.

And I would think the most ideal Splinter Cell would be one who has never made it to the news.

BTW - Batman was a brilliant reboot. However, Conviction was essentially a reboot, too, and you know how I feel about Conviction. So, that's why I'm dubious although I love the idea in theory. Also, I would NOT want the current team to reboot Splinter Cell. Never, ever, ever. Because from what I've seen, their passion lies elsewhere. They could continue making Conviction-style stuff, and so they should.

So the developers should continue making games like Conviction, just don't call them Splinter Cell?

Clint Hocking and the rest of the original team are the only people who could reboot Splinter Cell properly, in my opinion. Actually, Bioware could probably do it...

Now that you mention Clint Hocking I wonder what he thinks of Blacklist.

I like your idea, but at the same time, I dislike it a lot.

If Ubi wanted to make Sam aging, then they would probably introduced him as a younger guy. That's what Kojima did with Solid Snake and in close future we have an Old Snake (tnx to an accelerating aging) who is a true vet.

Well... they did give him a birth year, so that means they did want to make Sam ageing.

If this would be true, than Sam wouldn't sneak or he will be learning to sneak. The game would probably lead more towards the shooter, have missions like Seoul, Kinshasa, Iraq and airstrike would be a perfect choice. That's why he was a CIA agent before joining 3Ech.

Okay then make him a former CIA operative in the reboot.

I'm not sure why you made a connection between being a war veteran and not being able to sneak.

Btw you forgot Vernon Wilkes.

No I didn't. I left him out because he only appeared in one game, like Vic.

Well we don't know anything about Sarah's background from SC1 till SCC.

We did know about Sarah's background before Conviction.

She could be on college during the Con story.

She graduated from college just before Double Agent and had moved back to Maryland to be with Sam.

If Ubi does that, then they will have to reboot 6 novels as well.

So then get a writer to write the reboot novels.

Ok that's for SC Redefined, but what about sequels? If Sam is trully getting older, then he will be much slower than he is in SC Redefined, which means that will get slower and slower and probably won't be able to do what he does now or what he did earlier.

Sam was already ageing in the first five games and Essentials.

It's Blacklist where they stopped the ageing.

When Sam does reach the age that he is in Blacklist (about 55) they can reboot again, which would also be a good time for an engine change/upgrade.

They're doing that for Batman after The Dark Knight Rises, rebooting him for the Justice League movie.

Finally MGS series have something that SC don't and that is the beginning. They began with Solid Snake, later mentioned the 1st Snake - Naked Snake or Big Boss, which is their father, because all the clones are made from his dna and finished it with Old Snake, who became Solid after a fight with Liquid, who also turned back into Ocelot.
What Ubi can do is work on Sam's past, as they did for Essentials and connect that past to the SCB or SC7.

I wouldn't object to a prequel story, in fact I think it would be pretty cool, but with the direction Ubisoft is taking I doubt it will happen.

Having more SC agents and kicking Sam out of the story of the next Splinter Cell would be stupid.

I disagree.