I am the most prolific sniper in fc2 and the sniper does keep players honest, helps neautralize host advantage. Panda - why do.you think nobody in the competitive scene plays non-hardcore on fc2? The sniper is neutered and causes you to.shoot the targetb multiple times. The ar now becomes even more overpowered as it has no counter. The as50 is slow in terms of.shooting, has a small clip size, its fine as is. Pre-patch it probably was overpowered but in the post-patch meta-game it.is second best the the ar.
I too hate the realism argumentation. What do.you want the game to be fun or to be realistic? There would be no counter to.ar16ers and a harder time to.bring down the.host.
Ya I don't know what I was thinking about BF3 and saying there's no spawn killing. I mean, even I have gone on that spawn kill rampage in a helicopter. Bit ashamed of that.
I agree about being killed by the sniper is a mistake however there is an element of skill. The aim assist doesn't really trigger at range, only on quick scoping, which is why there are very few elite snipers. If anything, if the room is lagging in the slightest bit, the aim assist will throw your shot.
Unlike Swoosh, I am for acutally changing the way the snipers are for FC3. I would prefer no aim assist for 1 second after the scope is pulled. Too many players rely on cheap quickscoping and cannot actually snipe, it's quite pathetic. I also wouldn't mind more recoil on the 50 cal (or equivalent) in the future however it does work well for how it is in FC2. The best snipers would still able to use it effectively, even quickscope if their aim is true, and it cannot be abused by the jumping quickscopers with wireless dialup internet and a lack of skill.
I can understand where you are coming from in terms of player enjoyment for moving into battle however when a team is being spawn killed, they are being spawn killed from multiple directions, not just sniping. Typically for dying in less than 30 seconds, I'd say it's AR16 doing the killing. A typical match on FC2 has lulls when your sniping because the ARs are getting all the kills.
Ew RFG, the ultimate nerf game. Player handicapping destroyed that game overnight. Please massive, no handicapping, we don't want to play the video game version of Harrison Bergeron.
That's a good point I haven't thought of about the user maps. At the end of the day, I'm hoping massive have some sort of quality assurance on these player made maps. I don;t think that's a sniper issue per se, but more of an all weapon issue. In any FC2 map, the snipers plays pretty much the same role as and AR. Oh god, could you imagine another Watchfire?
50 cal is semi-auto but the recoil throws off the subsequent shots. Or my case, any aim assist throws my first shot due to lag but I correct for my second shot
I use pretty much every weapon in the video.
G3 has no auto aim unless it's at mid range, AK has a ton but has terrible side ways movement, PARA is some good aim assist at range.
PKM and SAW pretty much same, tons of aim assist if the weapon is fire in bursts.
AR has a ton as well but lateral movement is difficult, only way to beat area is to force the user to move around but then the massive aim assist the gun gets with hipfire fixes that.
Dart rifle and M1 have huge aim assist while no scoping and quickscoping. Ridiculous weapons but I have never seen someone do well with them in an actual competitive match. Would love if those kind of weapons did not exist but they are limited how they are currently.
Dragunov has same aim assist as 50 but fires a slower bullet and is a two shot kill, low recoil though. 50 cal gets some aim assist during quick scope but really some of those shots I would have made anyway. In the 2nd part of the video, you see me multiple times fire twice, always missing the first shot. Reason is if the game lags to small amount of aim assist throws my shot off but it disapears due to the recoil and I can make the shot. As well, another way to beat it is to move quickly or track your target, the aim assist stops messing with your aim if you apply certain pressure to the movement of the scope.
Yes, Swoosh, Im begging for views on my channel. Just thought I;d get that out before you say something.
Last edited by Mintage53; 06-29-2012 at 02:38 AM.
I thought player handicapping actually worked in RFG (it actually one of my favorite multiplayer games of all time).
But anyway, if the video is your normal playstyle, then something really stands oyt to me. You don't aim with snipers, you shoot from the hip the majority of the time, and only aim for utterly ridiculous shots. Of course a one shot kill model works well when you don't aim! Sorry, but I feel like you are advocating for a damage model which suits your play style, not necessarily everybody elses. If I am wrong I apologize.
Another thing, I really don't see lag as a good argument for a damage model, sorry. Also sorry if that seems a little abrasive, just the simplest way I can say it.
Something I have always wondered is why games don't go for a head and heart model. Both targets are relatively small, but it provides a second lethal point to AIM for when sniping. Also in a game like far cry where people wear no body armor, it makes a lot of sense.
I don't really have a lot left to say, I really think that the things needed to do well with a sniper weapon are accuracy and discretion, rather than running around and then complaining when you don't get kills. In my opinion, a two hit kill model forces snipers into there recon, support and countersniping roles better than any one shot kill model ever could. It differentiates weapons, prevents some frustration, and creates a greater variety of encounters with different weapons, all requiring different approaches to deal with.
In short, a sniper shound be a sniper, no some obnoxious assault weapon.
Handicapping single handedly destroyed the multiplayer community over night. One forum post by one of the devs and that was it. All the decent to ok players left, any clans took off as well. That was the end of the game. I love the game and was really good at it, but stopped playing shortly after that,
I am a bit disapointed with the rest of your post and I feel you missed the point of the video. The video was to illustrate how certain are a bit broken while others work well.
If you really have to ask if that is my normal playing style then you really must have not payed attention to anything else I have posted. Those clips were only ever done for one reason and one reason only, to make a montage. If you actually read my previous post you would see where I said the auto aim is ridiculous on dart rifles and M1s. And that the aim assist on the sniper should not exist for 1 second to prevent using an exploit to quickscope. I felt the video showed reasons in support of that.
You stated that the sniper takes little skill and was easy because if the aim assist. I pointed out the aim assist actually screws with the 50 cal at long range when there's a slight bit of lag. I feel the vidoe also illustrates the skill that is required to be a good snipe. If the sniper takes no skill, please attempt the things I did in that video against the same quality of opponent. I still maintain the sniper should be a one hit kill in torso.
The two hit kill forces the weapon to be discarded as useless or create selfish players. Nothing is more useless in TDM in BF3 than a sniper and seeing how FC2 had smaller maps, you could imagine how much more useless a 2 hit sniper would be. In my time playing BF3 I have never seen a sniper outkill any other weapon. To me that prove it is not a balanced model as a balanced model would have the ability for all class types to achieve roughly the same success if used correctly. How is a one hit kill sniper unfair when you have 5 bullet kills cross map from L85s? Or when you can spray and pray and drop a multikill with one clip of AEK? A sniper will never outkill either of those guns, I have never seen it and if it does happen, I have deep questions of the quality of opponent.
If in a competitive match, I had a teammate use a subpar weapon when they could be using a much better weapon, I would be angry with them and question their commitment. People like using the sniper but when the gun is inefficient then the majority of people that use it are selfish players. Put that in conjunction to points raised in previous about the sniper being necessary to counteract camping and set ups, and you have a necessary part of the game. You act like it would be an abomination and that it would be abused. The aim assist is abused but the damage model isn't. As previously stated, only 2 of the top 10 players use the sniper as their main weapon.
I feel a 2 hit kill sniper removes variety from the game as the map then shrinks as the interaciton zones become smaller. Take this video, where I essentially lost the game for the team. The map is pit bull with long sight lines but because we as a team were not confident with the lag we decided to not use the sniper. The boring joke of a match that ensued would've been over quick if either side had broken out a sniper and been able to use it.
That is what Far cry would be like if there was no snipers. The zone of engagement goes from the entire map to a crap corner.
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Mintage, there was a good reason I apologized already if i viewed the video in the wrong context. I wouldn't insult you by not reading you post and not watching the video.
Also, i play a hell of a lot of battlefield 3, and a sniper rifle on team deathmatch is unparallelled for kill efficiency. In the end, without lag of course, i would 'question the skill' of any sniper who has difficulty combating assault weapons at long range in BF3.
Look, I just don't think a sniper rifle needs to have a place where the focus is medium to close range infantry combat. Why should a sniper stand up to an assault rifle as medium range? That just isn't what its for. If you don't have any success with a sniper rifle, then change to something else, don't bemoan the weapons damage and scorn the other players lack of skill. The other players who have had the common sense to choose a mid range or close range weapon in a mid to close range environment.
If all the maps contained an equal range of close, medium and long range environments, then the sniper should be just as effective as all of the other weapons. On maps with more close range environments, then it won't be as effective. The whole point of different weapon types is that they are effective at different ranges and in different situations, and shoehorning any weapon int a new role because people just have to have a sniper class, and then insist on using it in a medium range environment is bad game design. If you die a lot by Ar's, it s because they are bringing the right tool for the job, and you are not, not that the sniper should just kill people in one shot to make it fair. As soon as you do that, and then move to the environments where the sniper is intended, and you have a horribly overpowered weapon on your hands.
In the context of battlefield 3, if your playing conquest on operation metro and keep dieing while using a sniper, its not because the gun is bad, its because you should be using something else.
Last edited by PandaThing; 06-30-2012 at 12:35 AM.
We have differing opinions on TDM in BF3. I have never had a problem with a sniper. I have had numerous issues with the type 95s and AEKs sitting on a wall just outside my spawn.
FC2 isn't a close to mid range shooter, it's a tactical, slower paced COD with some old school FPS throwbacks. Sand Blasted, Rusty Beef, Cut Bait, Clear Cut, Coup d'etat, rumble strip are not close to mid range maps. Dirty Work, Far Cry, Last Bastion, Pit Bull, Mud Maze, Riot Control were designed to use the 50 cal but only is specifc areas as a power weapon. Crude awakening is really the only medium sized map where the 50 cal can dominate all areas but I think that designed that way. Using the 50 cal anywhere else results in costing your team and all areas that are useful have counters either be being easily flanked or easy to get counter sniped. The 50 cal is almost useless on Love Shacks to only real close to mid range map in the game. If FC3 follows the same map models for interaction, then a one hit kill sniper will not be overpowered.
Your next point about a sniper not standing up to a assault rifle at medium range and your subsequent point about not using the gun proves my point that any decent player would not use a 2 hit kill sniper except for specfic situations. As a player who's best map is Love Shacks, which is close range and suits my skill set better than anyone elses except for maybe oSo Force, I have had to learn multiple game styles for every map. Yes, I will use a PARA on Pit Bull and my areas that I live in are areas of cover. It's how you play the game. Once again, if you run down an open area with no cover in a straight line, you deserve die no matter what gun kills you.
There is no shoehorning people into the sniper, if anything there is shoehorning people into the AR which removes variety, as both of us have more or less stated, and creates a boring game. That video shows what far cry 2 looks like without the use of one hit kill sniper. A boring, campy game.
I die a lot ARs because, along with SAW, there is no counter to them if there is no 50 cal. I am at my absolute best as a support/objective player so I suffer a but more with the AR/SAW because i have to engage them, typically in a situation that favors to either prevent a break in the set up or to take an objective. It's not really an issue in TDM because my role is to preserve the set up or help one of the killers create 2v1s but in objective it's ridiculous is I don't have long range support. The AR/SAW just end up camping their set up and the game is boring, stifling any player movement to the opponents side of the map.
To really point how ridiculous it is, you are saying a one hit kill sniper is overpowered yet if someone use a one burst kill scoped assault rifle that is accurate at long range, has a relatively quick rate of fire and really accurate hip fire then they are using the right weapon for the job. What about the SAW which is extremely accurate when burst fired at long range, can kill in 2 bullets, has a massive clip, and no movement penalty? The way Far Cry 2 is prevents the game from turning into a camp fest and the 50 cal can decrease the effectiveness of these 2 ridiculous guns by forcing them out of a static position. If the sniper was 2 hit kill, these 2 guns would beat it at long range. There is also a risk vs reward for the sniper, by using it you are effectively gambling that your sniper is good enough to break the set up the other has. If the sniper is not good enough you then created and odd man situation in the middle and the other team can break your set up.
Without a sniper, you either have to massively outskill your opponent or camp. When you throw the inevitable lag from wireless dialup connections combined with certain types hosts and host advantage, you get gods among men that quite literally cannot be killed unless you get lucky. This issue is also mitigated by a one hit kill sniper. If you say lag should never be an argument then you have never played against a decent host with who has a crappy connection. Case and point would be the Buzach and his host Auto-shotty. To further my argument, in COD4 both stopping power and juggernaut allowed players to compensate for the inherent lag the engine has. It is no coincidence that since both have been removed for the game over cries of overpowered, that the game has become noticably laggier. If i was struggling to handled to classic COD i-fired-shots-but-the-killcam-says-i-didn't death, I would switch to a class with juggy to allow me to live long enough for the game recognised that I in fact fired first and fired at the head, therefore, I would win.
The only argument that can be used for the gun being overpowered in FC2 is the aim assist which I already stated should be nerfed. I'd be happy with no aim assist at all on the sniper and even a higher recoil on the 50 cal. Prevents quickscopers with crappy connections from doing ok in lobbies with low skill level.
To further illustrate my point here';s a breakdown on how the sniper is used on each FC2 map.:
Long range maps:
Please note most players movement on these maps were designed to use vehicles, interaction by sniping is what I feel was intended by the designers.
Clear Cut - used from both bases. Map is bowl shaped with the only height being at both bases. Map has a no mans land feel in the middle. CTD changes the style and there's more of an importance on attacking with numbers or sneaking out of base to the sightlines of a sniper.
Sand Blasted - multiple areas to snipe from on both sides. Players typically spawn on and area that their team sniper is holding.
Rusty Beef - Heighted areas on both sides of map to snipe from, lots of cover that allows players movement through the middle of the map, very easy to be flanked. This map typically comes down to who wins the AR battle, sniper players a support role.
Cut Bait - massive sightlines from the middle of the map, but only on the roof in the middle and the open area where the hill is. Perfect for a main killer/secondary killer set up. Premium is kept on battling for those areas and keeping the opponent out of your spawn. Only map to use penalty spawns where if you lose your base you spawn in the open with a long run to any cover. You will only spawn there once and then back to fairer spawns with cover. Rewards team who use precision tactics to force that to occur. Very noob unfriendly map. Please note, ARs can easily take down any snipers from any area on the map.
Coup D'etat - Bit of a bad map. Designed to force players down a handful of different corridors. Only way to advance through the map is using precision tactics where once the snipers take down a few players, the ARs and PARA rush in to the freed areas. Snipers are dominant however as things get closer to either base, the AR and SAWs have an advantage as there is no height or cover to sniper into a base with. Essentially you have to be willing to switch from a sniper mode to an objective player quickly or hope your mid range players are capable of getting the diamond out and back to where the sniper can dominate. Map normally ends in a stalemate on CTD/Uprising.
Rumble strip - Snipers should control control the middle and move up to provide a spawn trap support. Snipers typically die the most on this map as they meant to serve as a distraction to allow movement through other areas. A sniper cannot cover their own base while trying to control the middle and thus is easily taken out of the equation, however if you do not have a good sniper you will struggle greatly to win this match if the other team does.
Dirty Work - This map is normally a battle for the greenhouses. If either team takes them, and this puts a sniper on one of the roofs, they are then a power position. Please note, all weapons can kill the sniper from their base. The 2nd position for the sniper is the flat roofs on either base. The sniper is in a support role in this position. A good sniper would be calling out players and created a dead zone in both greenhouses. Snipers are also forced to fight other snipers that are either on the greenhouses or on the other flat roof. A very skilled sniper can find the little holes in the cover of the greenhouse and snipe opponents on the other side however this is extremely difficult to do consistently.
Far Cry - The map is about setting up power weapons in the middle with secondary support from ARs. The middle of the map is a little hill with height over all exit areas from the opponents spawn, if you do not take and keep this area, you will lose the map. Please note, snipers are subceptible to note only fire from the spawn from AR/SAW but only to being easy flanked. This forces AR players into a support role or a rushing role.
Pit Bull - Snipers are from the positions of height in the bases to create a firing solution in the middle, counter snipe their opponents, prevent a spawn kill and assist offensively at taking deer stand. Deer stand is a position of power where the sniper can become a power weapon (Swoosh is king at this.) Most players use AR to attack from here however. AR/SAW are still king on this map, both playing much more expansive roles. Top teams in TDM would break the other teams set up and move ARs to either the deer stand or to force UFLL to spawn in the pit. In CTD, this is similar however most teams only use the sniper to win the initial engagement and move to the AR.
Mud Maze - snipers are only useful from the flat areas at the top of the map. Their only purpose is to prevent each other from setting a spawn kill or set up for the AR/SAW can create a spawn kill from the top. The map normally has snipers fighting up top and the close to mid range players fighting each other below. The roles of a sniper are support, area defense and counter sniping.
Riot Control - Area control of 2 middle streets, however can be very easy to flank by a half decent player. Goal is to slow player movement into your side of the map. Areas of height at both bases are typically dominated by AR/SAWs. Sniper can be used in a spawn trap however, this is typically created by the PARA/AR/SAW players and easily twarted.
Crude Awakening - was designed as a mid range sniper map on TDM. Lots of areas to attack from height, and multiple positons of power. ExP would run 2 snipers, one on hill as 2nd killer, the other right at the front of the base to force movement. The rest of the players would act as a clean up crew to prevent the other team from overrunning the base. Player movement through the middle of the map is easy, however you have to attack a base with numbers if you are going to succeed. If it wasn't for the snipers, this map would be a one spawn trap and done map as there is no way to break a spawn on this map without giving up roughly 30 kills. Snipers are somewhat ineffective in CTD as the runner has various amounts of cover at almost all times.
Last Bastion - The snipers are used as precision weapons. In TDM, most teams camp their tower and set up a sniper on their catwalk or tower. In order to break the other teams set up, you must be able to take down the other sniper and allow your team to assault the tower. If you are successful at this you should end up with both towers and roughly a 20 point lead before your opponent then has to attack to get their tower back while taking fire from all sides. Very bad map and very campy if the set up is never broken. CTD is much better, snipers is a precision weapon again on the catwalks. A sniper has to counter snipe, avoid deaths from the AR/Saw and even PARAs, and also be creative enough to engineer a platform for the diamond to be stolen. On top of that, the sniper has to be the top defender, the only guard against a spawn trap, the main support player for his team moving up the map and the player making the majority of the call outs. If the sniper is not skilled or fails at any of the above, his team should lose. If the sniper did not exist, this dynamic position would be eliminated and we'd end up with the classic spawn trap to steal tactic as nobody would be able to assault the AR/SAWs killing from cover from the middle.
Typically teams use only one sniper for this, however teams like ExP and oSo trust their middle players enough to hold the ground that they will throw 2 snipers to ensure that all the requirements are met. oSo have never, ever been beaten in CTD Last Bastion with 4 or more oSo's in the room. Yes even 4 vs 8 they won everytime, even with Buzach stacked team, crappy host with auto-shotty/mgl. In Uprising, the sniper used in almost a purely defensive position, protecting C and preventing attack from above on B.
Love Shacks - Snipers are almost effectively useless on this map. The SAW, with its ability to shoot through cover dominates, PARA and AR are also excellent though. It's is easy to lock down a team to an area on this map however player movement is facilitated by using the roofs to bypass set ups. Bit a story, many teams put Love Shacks on when oSo was in the room because of the snipers, little did they know that Love Shacks suits the styles of oSo Force, oSo Famous, oSo Clutch and myself. Lots of very suprised people because our margin of victory would typically go up on this map.
I apologise for the wall of text, I did get a bit carried away however, I felt it was necessary to illustrate to different roles the sniper plays to as best as possible.
Last edited by Mintage53; 06-30-2012 at 04:20 PM.
Alright lets get one thing straight here. There is only one thing that killed the Red faction guerrilla multiplayer community and that was MW2. I was there when the community became a ghost town. Just wanted to clarify that.
On topic: From the videos it looks like they got the bullet damage correct. I mean anything but a bullet sponge fest.
Mintage, lets get one thing clear. This is a Far Cry 3 forum, and I am talking about Far Cry 3. For every one of your points, you use Far Cry 2 as evidence; when the likelihood is, far Cry 3 is going to play absolutely nothing like Far Cry 2. From gameplay I have seen, and interviews with developers, its looking like the game is going to be, as I said, mostly medium to close range infantry combat.
When I talk about bullet damage, I am talking about it based on what I think Far cry 3 is going to be like, not what Far Cry 2 is like. And hopefully, Far Cry 3 is going to be nothing like its predecessor gameplay wise. Far Cry's strengths are in features, location and style; gameplay on the other hand, is poor. Its clunky as hell, the guns don't feel good, and it just generally rough around the edges.
The reason I have such an issue with your 'the game lags, therefore' point is that A, you have not played far Cry 3, and B, you should NEVER balance a game because of lag. Its just stupid. Using gameplay from the less than stellar previous installment to support proposed balance points for the next game is stupid. You should be comparing Far Cry 3 to other games that appear to be of the same type, for example Call of Duty, Battlefield 3 and Medal of Honor. These are all games (most notably the last) where one shot kill snipers have seriously damaged gameplay. In BF3's case, one shot snipers would severely damage gameplay at any range.
I think the absolutely most important point here is that Far Cry 2 is clunky. When the game clunky, and aiming at and shooting a target with a sniper is difficult, then sure, maybe a one shot kill model seems justified, but when you move to a fluid, responsive shooter, where aiming, shooting and producing follow up shots is actually easy, then a one shot kill model is less fair.
Anyway, as I have said, I am not proposing balance changes For Far Cry 2, only speculation about what looks like will and wont work in Far Cry 3. Again, I have really made all my points, and i don't have a lot left to say (if you've noticed, the quality of my posts has deteriorated). I will happily respond to any new points you raise, but on the ones we have raised already, I think we will have to agree to disagree.
Last edited by PandaThing; 07-01-2012 at 11:43 AM.