Nobody wants to hear it, but..... | Forums

[FALLEN CHAMP]

Thank you Mintage for stepping in, my intentions were not to fall out with Swoosh in a forum, I know of the name as I said but my point was a simple one that the editor is not only used for standard fighting maps anymore - even though the game is 1st and foremost a First Person Shooter there are all kinds of stuff now been made - you understand that I am sure.

However the debate with Swoosh got me thinking and I started reading old articles and old videos of the FC3 multiplayer stuff from April, I really believe that you competitive guys are going to get a hell of a game with FC3 - it sound's like those that play as a team are really going to be able to shine and this should force others to also adapt that approach otherwise they will IMO lose badly - Been organized and knowing just when to use the battle cry and which one to select, which skills to put with which weapon class you created and knowing what weapons and skills / battle cry's your team mates have will be vital in working together in an efficient manner.

My solo leg it forward shooting and get taken down because I am on my own simply counts for nothing, and going out into open stretches requires someone watching your back - I think it will make for really organized and tactical battles.

It is time for us all to adapt to and embrace the changes, Massive have taken a lot of criticism on these forums and 99.9% of us have not even had a go on the game yet - the more I read now the more I am up for Far Cry 3 and I think in what they are trying to do with the multiplayer side in forcing Team Play - if they have got it right and it works then other games will have to look at this and maybe follow suit.

As for the FCIP / FC2 Maps - you are correct, I have built a lot that are more made for the run and gun type player, but I often try to do a lot of different types of map - us map makers can be selfish at times, There are a lot of maps out there which could have maybe been so much better with small changes and these Clans could have missed out on some good matches had the maps been altered to meet their needs.

The contest with Embassy was with Genesis Device who are now under the name gamermade.com (I think) That was for 2 teams of 4 players if I remember right.
As for the Seek & Secure Contest I think these games go through phases with map builders and back then there were some smaller maps and indoor type maps that were getting a lot of attention, also there was that ladder glitch and maps with eye candy that got noticed too, where some others maybe could have maybe excelled a lot more in the gameplay stakes with more players if they were played correctly (I agree - there are always lessons to learn)

As I am typing Taylor who owns fcmaps is actually coding on the new site.
This is getting to a stage where it will be ready sooner then later but I am clueless on an exact date as I just do the forum stuff - but the site is going to be so much better, I am unsure if it could ever meet the needs of competitive clans (we also have a language barrier which might not be cool to some of those on the Xbox Forums that like the trash talk side)

Who knows maybe some things can be done which would help us all - I don't want to say anything now but we have some stuff planned already which I have discussed with Mambonuts and CrazyUncleDave so far - It would be nice to see you guys get more exposure but like map makers there is always rivalry that can often go too far, it is keeping everyone happy that is the hard part.

Anyhow thanks for stepping in and posting - I have been in a few matches with you going back a couple of years possibly, generally I just stay quiet - next time I will be a bit more vocal.

Thanks again.

Steve

[FROGM4N]

Appreciate the clarification and glad that you enjoyed my map.

and I like the idea of having a tournament on the finalist maps to determine the winner.

I really feel like once it gets down to the end all of the maps are good in their own right and a "Playtest" would be a great way of differentiating them.

[FALLEN CHAMP]

	Title	Author	Mode	Total Votes (Confirmed & Unconfirmed)	Added By
1	ExPLoSivEs MPD	Mis7aPapz D3A7H		32	i mzeeEVIL 1
2	Cedar Creek	FROGM4N		23	i mzeeEVIL 1
3	BEACH CONTROL	FALLEN CHAMP		21	i mzeeEVIL 1
4	TRUTH	SWEETCORN 93		18	i mzeeEVIL 1
5	Hot Tin Roof	Madmax812		15	i mzeeEVIL 1
6	The Hunt Begins	Rolla Stretcha		15	i mzeeEVIL 1
7	TITAN	T0ASTMAN		15	i mzeeEVIL 1
8	Hell Dorado	Maxprey		15	i mzeeEVIL 1
9	GHOST FARM	OBLIVION 182		11	i mzeeEVIL 1	08-07-2007
10	RICHOCHET	s***grief		10	i mzeeEVIL 1
11	Temple Of Dooom	DUMPTRUCK xUGSx		9	i mzeeEVIL 1
12	Havoc Plaza	Str3tchnut5 13		8	i mzeeEVIL 1
13	SPOILED MILK	VIP MM		7	i mzeeEVIL 1
14	tropicana exile	WildXmonkeyX		6	i mzeeEVIL 1
15	Spartacus X	the Chr0n1C		6	i mzeeEVIL 1
16	The Unsolved	FastZombie		4	i mzeeEVIL 1

That is the actual Map names - Their positions and number of votes from the contest, We still have all details and stuff for reference.
The winning map was quite small and meybe would not be suited for more than 6 players.

Hell Dorado / Cedar Creek / I liked those 2, Spoiled Milk was a nice indoor map that had a lot of duel wielding weapons.
I can't remember Ricochet but generally like s***grief's maps - He has been known to not have a lot of weapons or health in his work.

There were some nice maps, but I liked the Out With A Bang Predator Contest a lot more, that had a better percentage of quality maps I believe.
My Beach Control was fun but I made several versions, in the end I think the sniper rifle in the central area on the hill was a bit of an issue - but it was all about controlling that area - The map was not as good as a lot of the others.

[FALLEN CHAMP]

	Title	Author	Mode	Total Votes (Confirmed & Unconfirmed)	Added By	Date Added
1	Scissorhands	Lomnops		16	taylor	07-09-2008
2	Tangier MPD	Mis7aPapz D3A7H		14	taylor	07-09-2008
3	HELLS TREASON	ExiledFallen		14	taylor	07-09-2008
4	Orthodox	MutantMnMz 630		14	taylor	07-09-2008
5	Natures Revenge	Stubborn Puppet		14	taylor	07-09-2008
6	Accuso	FALLEN CHAMP		13	taylor	07-09-2008
7	Coastal Road	claybacca		13	taylor	07-09-2008
8	Lockdown	AUT0MATOR		12	taylor	07-09-2008
9	SlaughterHouse3	o0 WILKY 0o		11	taylor	07-09-2008
10	Babylon Decayed	Jules35		11	taylor	07-09-2008
11	Dirtnap Canyons	Maxprey		10	taylor	07-09-2008
12	KATSUDAS	SICKSIX6		9	taylor	07-09-2008
13	THE LAST STAND	s***grief		8	taylor	07-09-2008
14	Moss Tooth	HaloBum117		7	taylor	07-09-2008
15	North Calling	Mac777777		6	taylor	07-09-2008
16	Aqua Duct	XHeretic HeroX		4	taylor	07-09-2008

Over the years I have played a lot of Orthodox & Katsudas, I also liked Natures Revenge - The whole contest had some nice maps entered and a lot of variety, maybe if some of those clans had got together and looked closer at them and the authors were up for it some modifications to the maps chosen would have earned them a lot more plays which is always a compliment when people enjoy something you have created.

[Mintage53]

	Title	Author	Mode	Total Votes (Confirmed & Unconfirmed)	Added By
1	ExPLoSivEs MPD	Mis7aPapz D3A7H		32	i mzeeEVIL 1
2	Cedar Creek	FROGM4N		23	i mzeeEVIL 1
3	BEACH CONTROL	FALLEN CHAMP		21	i mzeeEVIL 1
4	TRUTH	SWEETCORN 93		18	i mzeeEVIL 1
5	Hot Tin Roof	Madmax812		15	i mzeeEVIL 1
6	The Hunt Begins	Rolla Stretcha		15	i mzeeEVIL 1
7	TITAN	T0ASTMAN		15	i mzeeEVIL 1
8	Hell Dorado	Maxprey		15	i mzeeEVIL 1
9	GHOST FARM	OBLIVION 182		11	i mzeeEVIL 1	08-07-2007
10	RICHOCHET	s***grief		10	i mzeeEVIL 1
11	Temple Of Dooom	DUMPTRUCK xUGSx		9	i mzeeEVIL 1
12	Havoc Plaza	Str3tchnut5 13		8	i mzeeEVIL 1
13	SPOILED MILK	VIP MM		7	i mzeeEVIL 1
14	tropicana exile	WildXmonkeyX		6	i mzeeEVIL 1
15	Spartacus X	the Chr0n1C		6	i mzeeEVIL 1
16	The Unsolved	FastZombie		4	i mzeeEVIL 1

That is the actual Map names - Their positions and number of votes from the contest, We still have all details and stuff for reference.
The winning map was quite small and meybe would not be suited for more than 6 players.

Hell Dorado / Cedar Creek / I liked those 2, Spoiled Milk was a nice indoor map that had a lot of duel wielding weapons.
I can't remember Ricochet but generally like s***grief's maps - He has been known to not have a lot of weapons or health in his work.

There were some nice maps, but I liked the Out With A Bang Predator Contest a lot more, that had a better percentage of quality maps I believe.
My Beach Control was fun but I made several versions, in the end I think the sniper rifle in the central area on the hill was a bit of an issue - but it was all about controlling that area - The map was not as good as a lot of the others.

Just off that list there.

Good maps:
Cedar Creek - see my reasons in my edited post.

Ok maps:
Truth - not spectacular. Nothing to it gameplay wise, no height.
Beach Control - no real hot/cold areas. layout makes it easy for players to not interact. Sniper did actually help the interaction but there is no way to really force a team to come at you.
The Hunt begins - I like Rolla but his hatred for anything long range shows up in this match. Long corridors + no long range weapons=lots of grenades.
Titan - Too long to get to stations. 3 stations are located in the central area, easy to lock off and force a team to spawn on side thus turning the game into spawn kill.
Temple of doom - way too easy to max up 150 armour, dual eagles, dual p90s.
Spoiled Milk - I know VIP is a dual player, and this map has a special place in my heart but in a competition I would not recommend it. Rocket+plus middle corridor height=spawn kill.

Bad Maps:
Explosives MPD - Too clustered, no room. Can spawn trap the wicker room and that's game. As well, the one station on the other end with the pipes next to it, you can crawl inside and capture the point.
Hot Tin roof - the map I was speaking about earlier. God it was terrible.
Ricochet - someone please put this map out of its misery.
Spartacus x - abomination.
The unsolved- most stations are at the top of stairs. having to attack height to take a station is ridiculous.

Babylon decayed is one of the best player maps I have ever played, especially CTF. The design when used with frog jumping gives so many interesting dynamics. Multiple ways to attack, you have to work to get a steal but if you are better than your opponent you will get one. Majority of the armour are in the middle while health is a little bit back. If i remember correctly, to get the armour you have to give up the height. Perfect STS map, forces teams into the middle and to get a steal you have to put the other teams numbers down and support all the way back due to the generous middle spawns.


On the back to original topic conversation, most vehicles i think are useless. That being said, using the quad well was a skill.

[PandaThing]

I've been wondering how user maps really stand up to stock maps. I feel that the fundamental difference between the two are the sense of place. Developer maps always fit the style and theme of the game, where user maps are desperate attempts to create something that isn't from the game.

Where developer maps feel as if the developers envisioned a shape for the map, and then used buildings and scenery to realise the shape, user maps often feel as if the reverse process has occurred. The maker thought of an awesome style for the map, and then built the game play spaces to accommodate the style they envisioned. It's always a little jarring to go from stock maps designed with smooth, flowing gameplay spaces realised primarily using the terrain generator to an ugly, angular user map designed with some bastardised halo gameplay philosophy. Don't get me wrong, your map has to have some style to stand out, but to often you see more style than substance.

Actually I think this really highlights the importance of limiting the disconnect between user and stock maps. In an ideal ecosystem, you should be able to play Far Cry 3 and never play the same map twice in the same sitting, moving from stock maps to very highly rated user maps with no discernible difference between the two. User maps in Far Cry 2 were always immediately recognisable because you got this sense of what the map maker wanted to achieve, and how that negatively affects the whole map. You end up playing a map which suffers because the maker really wanted to include 'that awesome corridor' or 'two bases in a cave' and built there whole map around those features.

I suppose what I really want to get across is that map making could really use a different approach in Far Cry 3, and the reasons that stock maps tend to be better are the different design philosophy. Don't misunderstand me though, I have played some really good user maps which really feel like part of the game, but so many do not. Also just to show that we are still on topic, no vehicles and weapon placement should help to enforce the 'whole design first, build later' philosophy because makers don't focus needlessly on having certain vehicle and weapons, and spoil there maps as a result.

Anyway, what do the rest of you think? Are there other reasons that stock maps tend to be better? Or aren't they?

[GUN_SABOTUR]

It takes alot of skill and experience to create balanced maps that feel like a real place. With regard to vehicles in MP maps (Player Maps in Far Cry) - it can detract from the objective of creating a good layout. Someone made the analogy of watercolours and oil paints - the media used is irrelevant - its the skill of the artist that creates an aesthetically pleasing environment. I don't mind if theres no vehicles in MP but FC3 will have lost something relative to FC2.

[Mintage53]

I've been wondering how user maps really stand up to stock maps. I feel that the fundamental difference between the two are the sense of place. Developer maps always fit the style and theme of the game, where user maps are desperate attempts to create something that isn't from the game.

Where developer maps feel as if the developers envisioned a shape for the map, and then used buildings and scenery to realise the shape, user maps often feel as if the reverse process has occurred. The maker thought of an awesome style for the map, and then built the game play spaces to accommodate the style they envisioned. It's always a little jarring to go from stock maps designed with smooth, flowing gameplay spaces realised primarily using the terrain generator to an ugly, angular user map designed with some bastardised halo gameplay philosophy. Don't get me wrong, your map has to have some style to stand out, but to often you see more style than substance.

Actually I think this really highlights the importance of limiting the disconnect between user and stock maps. In an ideal ecosystem, you should be able to play Far Cry 3 and never play the same map twice in the same sitting, moving from stock maps to very highly rated user maps with no discernible difference between the two. User maps in Far Cry 2 were always immediately recognisable because you got this sense of what the map maker wanted to achieve, and how that negatively affects the whole map. You end up playing a map which suffers because the maker really wanted to include 'that awesome corridor' or 'two bases in a cave' and built there whole map around those features.

I suppose what I really want to get across is that map making could really use a different approach in Far Cry 3, and the reasons that stock maps tend to be better are the different design philosophy. Don't misunderstand me though, I have played some really good user maps which really feel like part of the game, but so many do not. Also just to show that we are still on topic, no vehicles and weapon placement should help to enforce the 'whole design first, build later' philosophy because makers don't focus needlessly on having certain vehicle and weapons, and spoil there maps as a result.

Anyway, what do the rest of you think? Are there other reasons that stock maps tend to be better? Or aren't they?

On the topic of FC2, the stock maps were designed with positions of power and easy counters. Pit bull, Love Shacks, Dirty Work, Clear Cut, Crude Awakening, Last Bastion, mud maze and far cry all forced you into different playstyles with numerous counters. The developers also put a lot of thought in advantages of each side. Example: Pit Bull APR has a lot of cover but UFLL has better sightlines. Dirty Work APR is closer to the cover of the greenhouses but highly susceptible to a spawn kill if they do not keep them, whereas UFLL has no cover between their base and the greenhouses except for the windwill ditch. UFLL has better sightlines from the flat roof.

You don't get that much dept in player maps. I mean look at the ones added during the update.

Watchfire - abomination. You can spawn kill either side if you surround the diamond area, all spawns are open to attack 360 degrees.
Motabo Creek - clunky, no versatility. Laggy as well. Lots of ideas but no design. One side has a clear advantage with the 3 story building in tdm.
The tree one - Terrible map movement, forces players down 3 routes. One side has cover in the spawns, the other doesn't.
Far cry palace - Capture the diamond is extremely unfair. One team has to attack height to take the diamond, the other doesn't

The only decent map was Renavista. UFLL has the inside track on the hallway. If that hallway is kept then that;s the game. Enough flow on the map though that all areas are susceptible to attack from different locations. Very well planned map. One team gets to attack from height however is has multiple entries into their base.

[otarosrun]

I will admit I do have some pent up rage from all the bad player-made maps ive seen. There is only so much broken gameplay mechanics one can handle and this is really the first time ive interacted with a map-makers so you guys unfairly got the brunt of it, when most likely noobs of the far cry map-making is who deserve it.

Fallen Champ - I know what you mean about someone creating a sock account to attack, which is really the only reason I revealed my gamertag. I want to make it clear I do think 90-95% of maps are unplayable but that there are a select few maps that are visually stunning and work competitively. But I see that more of an accident, that map makers tend to go for the beauty of the work then the substance of it.

If you watched that faux map making tutorial video I posted, those are the people I am directing my dislike at. If you look at the video and agree that maps like those are bad then we're on the same page. Since you guys seem very dedicated to your craft im willing to bet you guys have advanced enough to avoid the common pitfalls novice builders make.

I think the reason competitive players dont like player-made maps is you have to constantly re-learn the map, which is why I've never seen a good player come out of the map-making enviroment cause it stunts their growth as a player. Simply because the more you play a map the better you get at the map and in turn, the game.

I do actually remember toastman joining one of the ranked matches on pinnacle, dont remember winning 3-0 in that game, but we were aware of the presence we were in. Pinnacle isnt a bad map, but there are a lot of parts of the maps that take too much time to navigate and are thus unused. Renevista (and far cry palace to an extent) are the only ones i think fit.

The person who made renevista clearly made the map to make a dam, not to play competitively, at least that was not the primary objective. I think the devs do it the other way around and make the gameplay work and then make it aesthetically pleasing. Frogman is right, they probably do go through lots of iterations and have many people testing it which you guys dont have the luxury of doing.

I have always sensed the gap between the players who made maps and those who wish to be the best. You guys tend to keep on your own forums (or as i am discovering, here) while we stay on xbox.com or communicate in-game. Im only here for news about the beta and the talk of pie. I know must of us who play the game competitively either forget you guys exist or regard you guys as noobs. You probably think of us the same, as we are both noobs at what the other person thinks the best part of far cry is.

There are other points i wanted to make, but it is late and my spokes person, mintage, probably does it better anyway. But I do wish you guys the best and that you are able to make great balanced maps that work for everyone that we can play on ranked.

- MR. PERFECT

[FALLEN CHAMP]

Swoosh I apologise about the Mr Perfect claim, I guess we both ruffled each others feathers a little but at the same time we are both opinionated and we feel strongly about the previous games but like you said in different areas.

I have to thank you though for coming on here and speaking out because you do have a really valid point.
I think looking back a large percentage of us map makers have followed the trend, I myself can not make creative stuff that is beautiful to look at, and generally I do aim for a playable map with different routes to and around the key points / objectives on the map but I have also made some crazy and silly maps at the same time.

As you clans have a lot of competition which brings some fierce discussions and posts in forums we get the same with different map authors, I don't think there will ever be this happy balance with Far Cry but it does seem to be getting better on our side but then the game is old and not that popular, you are correct with some maps choosing looks and creativity possibly over the design and playability and as you said maybe the main focus is on a piece of eye candy and the map builds around that which could mean that some sections don't fit that well (rather then building a layout and then adding in any visuals afterwards)

The way it works with some is that if a map is popular among map makers you can guarantee that someone will either try to build something similar or they will go one step further by using some elements of the design but do it better - There is always a rush to be the 1st to create something special with some, and there are others that look for glitches or ways to make something crazy.

Yes a large percentage like to doodle with the editor and a lot of maps are maybe not looked at or rated on playability alone among us guys, it can also be difficult at times to pass over fixes or suggestions - some take them on board and will improve their maps in any way they can where others will not budge - so some of us can be a complex bunch.

I myself am really open (or I think I am) I take on board comments and criticism and those that know me through the games would admit that a lot of the time I struggle to like my own maps and I am not the type that ever says I am good in the editor or make good stuff - The ratings system I believe was a joke and although it is getting upgraded unfortunately there will always be some who will rate a map as 1 star through spite and rate their own as 5 stars no matter what - I am also a small minority that believes NO Player Map should be RANKED.
That RANKED stuff should IMO stay as Ubisoft Maps only, but the developers of FC3 say that they will include User Made Maps in the Ranked list if they are worthy of it and I read somewhere that they have a team working on the map database who will closely follow the ratings and the maps which is great because I felt bad for Kimi in FC2 - She seemed to be on her own with that stuff and the result was better than nothing but it was always going to cause issues with Recommended and Ranked stuff.

Maybe some of us could work a little bit closer with FC3, if we could supply the right types of map then maybe some of you guys could spend an hour running through them and give us the feedback to make improvements which would benefit the map in the playable department - I have a lot of ideas that could work for us and these would not be blink of an eye things, we would have the correct people to follow things through and work together in making it better for both sides, If you are interested let me know and I will put a package together of what we are looking to do.

To be honest some of the stuff has already been discussed with a select few in the community and they think it is a good idea but maybe the Clans Side would like in on it also - it does not do any harm to discuss things anyhow.

As for NOOBS - Hell no I would never think of Clan players as noobs - to be honest that is a word I never use, I have been in matches on FCIP when some of you guys have entered and it can be a painful experience staying in the map when you are getting hit by people before you have the chance to see them, it is impressive to view even when on the receiving end and obviously to get that good you have to learn the maps, play as a team and generally have skill.

Thanks for the reply anyhow - although I don't think I could ever be good enough as a player to be in any of those Clan Teams it is still interesting to hear about what goes on and there should be a place that gets a lot more exposure for you guys, maybe we can all work together in creating something special ?

A perfect example of a map that is not intended to be playable is AK47 which the author explained was more of an artistic experiment, you can view this below - that was what I meant when I said the editor is not always used to create a playable map, peopel use it for all kinds of stuff nowadays.