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  1. #1

    Nobody wants to hear it, but.....

    ...weapon placement is a legacy feature, and allowing vehicle placement is the worst possible thing that could happen to the map editor.

    Clearly this sounds a little unreasonable, so I will elaborate. I haven't played on any maps that make good use of vehicles in far cry. EVER. A vehicle becomes a prop used by unimaginative map makers and produces some of the most unimpressive, boring maps out there. It spawns countless 'two base' maps, maps with two many open spaces, no attention to detail and truly awful gameplay flow.

    Not including vehicles in the map maker drives the quality of user maps up, because people are forced to design good gameplay spaces, not just a map tht has the coolest vehicle in the game and not a lot else. This means that the average user map will be better, and we wont get stuck playing on maps with an imagined gameplay flow that does not actually work ('wouldent it be cool if people attacked the fort in cars and drove away'). Of course this is only my personal opinion, but I just thoght it was important for people to see that there is another side to the whole 'no vehicle' situation.

    And on the subject of weapon placement, if you cant design a multiplayer map for all the weapons in the game, that is naturally balanced by design, well......
    Last edited by PandaThing; 06-19-2012 at 07:40 AM.

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  2. #2
    I agree with you on the vehicles
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  3. #3
    Senior Member FALLEN CHAMP's Avatar
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    VEHICLES

    I can't think of one map on FC2 which uses vehicles as Teams where you would generally see 3 or 4 players in the vehicle a lot - The only way that would work is if the map area is that long that walking would take forever which would force players to use vehicles more, but then the vehicles in FC2 were slightly different models in singleplayer then the way they played in multiplayer.
    For a start in singleplayer you can enter the vehicle from any door and it puts you straight into the drivers seat (that does not happen in multiplayer) and the vehicles can take slightly more damage and don't burst into flames as often when going over small dips and rocks (IMO)

    That map above is designed for CTD and vehicles but I have never seen more then 2 players in a vehicle.

    The big boat was far too numb and slow and the swamp boat could at times be a pain getting on and off so those could be some reasons as to why the vehicles in FC2 did not have as many players using them, generally vehicles from what I have seen in FC2 were more solo driven or 2 players at the most and usually they were for getting from A to B and often did not return.

    However with Far Cry Instincts Predator my opinion changes and I have seen players use vehicles a lot more in 2s and 3s - often when using the jetski and ATV in STS mode one player would jump off in search of the sample and the driver would wait for them to return or would help clear the area - the humvee and transport truck would often get 3 players inside depending on the map.

    That game was more arcade orientated with it's quick style of play and a lot of the maps were fast and fun - we could have 12 vehicles in a map compared to 6 in FC2 so there was a lot more carnage and the vehicles could handle quite big jumps and still survive.

    I would say that vehicles add fun for a lot of the people who play the game and make their own maps, not everyone takes it seriously and some even make maps designed for no killing - it is a game that's editor offers a lot of options to those that use it.

    WEAPONS
    I have not been a big fan of Weapon Class Systems but it is almost impossible to get away from them in games nowadays.
    However it does not matter what we say because the Team has their own system with Far Cry 3 and I believe their changes are for the better.
    We can now pick up weapons from dead bodies so if you are running out of ammo or you want to change gun that is what you do.

    We can customize our load-out to suit our needs, or choose one of the pre made load outs.
    The weapons have attachments / upgrades
    It all sounds a lot better IMO.

    As for the Editor - I understand what you are saying Panda - but I see it this way, I don't like butter / cheese / sauce or any other crap on a burger if I purchase one, I just get it plain.
    If I think of the editor in a similar way - I make the map and would like to have some control on how it plays, If I wanted 16 players with sniper rifles I would make a big map especially designed for that, if I wanted a map that suited the shotgun I would again make a map that had tight spaces with corners and areas that would be up close and personal (by the way I have not played many maps that suited the shotgun class so well on FC2)
    You are correct that a map can be designed to suit every class, I have done this with some of mine but I have made others where those that favour the sniper class leave because that weapon would not be a good choice.

    An example of a small CQC map I made.

    The issue is preference in what people want to make and choice in allowing them to make it, the issue is not who is right and wrong.
    There are a lot of people that make stupid maps that I would categorize as chill out maps - these are not designed for killing but are more designed for fun / crazy stuff, One which I can't stand on PS3 is Big Jump - the name says it all, by not having vehicles these types of map are cut off - Maybe some of those players will not play in a competitive match but just like to have a laugh, It will not affect sales a great deal but why cut off a small portion of the market unless there is reason to do this.

    The same as weapons - I don't need weapon placement to enjoy the game, If I could have it then sure I would dictate more on which type of play the map would be suited to but there are many others who would do the same, Our site actually lost a lot of people who simply walked away because they did not like the changes in FC2 (that is their choice)

    There could be an alternative where instead of weapon placement they could allow all rockets or all pistols or all snipers to be in a game, some players designed maps and only placed rockets in and I have seen some with no health or armour in - but these are a minority.

    As I say I don't have a problem and am actually looking forward to seeing the new changes in FC3 - The battle cry and team support we only have a fraction of the info, it is interesting times ahead - I am not gonna cry if we don't get vehicles - I even went through a phase on FC2 where I refused to put ladders and vehicles in my maps, but I got over that eventually.

    Come release I think most people will be happy, I know I will enjoy the game.
    The developers are making it their way and we should respect that.
    Last edited by LAMBCHOP1972; 06-19-2012 at 09:07 AM.
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  4. #4
    The map making community has long been out of touch with what the competitive gamers want. In FC/FC:IP the weapon placement by every map maker is a joke. Weapons that you can akimbo are placed side by side, armor is in every nook and cranny. There is never a sense of feeling 'naked' in those maps cause every spawn location has access to every weapon and bundles of armor. Not being able to place weapons in FC2 was great cause every map maker ****ed it up. No vehicles is great, plus they hadnled like crap in fc2 so im glad theyre out.
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  5. #5
    Senior Member FALLEN CHAMP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by otarosrun View Post
    The map making community has long been out of touch with what the competitive gamers want. In FC/FC:IP the weapon placement by every map maker is a joke. Weapons that you can akimbo are placed side by side, armor is in every nook and cranny. There is never a sense of feeling 'naked' in those maps cause every spawn location has access to every weapon and bundles of armor. Not being able to place weapons in FC2 was great cause every map maker ****ed it up. No vehicles is great, plus they hadnled like crap in fc2 so im glad theyre out.
    There were a lot of maps that had duel wielding weapons side by side as you said, and some maps had weapon stashes where you could pick up a lot of weapons, or there were weapons in secret areas that generally only the map author new about - and those maps that were extremely one sided where one team had all the health and weapons.

    But that was not EVERY MAP as you stated above, you also stated that EVERY map maker ****ed it up with map design and weapon placement, maybe the fact was that the game was simply not for you.

    There was a phase where people would not put sniper rifles on sniper towers and the duel wielding weapons would be spread out over the map so it was more difficult and sometimes actually hard to duel wield - I have done maps like this myself, FCIP had its issues as does FC2 - No game will ever be perfect or not open to abuse when the player has such control.

    But hey where does it say that when you purchase a Far Cry game every map author will be an amazing and experienced creator - people want different things in their maps and the editor allows this, there is no need to be so rude and disrespectful in your opinions, a large majority of people are happy with what they create and they like the way they play, if you don't like it then make your own maps or stick to the ones that ship with the game.

    Speaking on that topic I guess the Developers of Instincts / Evolutions as you say ****ed it up also then did they with their weapon placement in their maps that came with the game - The answer is simple you just don't like weapon placement and don't like the early Far Cry game but to degrade every person who has ever made a map on those games is **** arrogant.

    Some maps I have played on had only Evolutions in them for weapons - the map was an arena style with the aim to get an evo - turn into a Predator and kill, the author will have achieved what they set out to do when creating the map so it is not for us to say that they don't know what they are doing or that they are a joke - if a map author is happy with their map then that is the end of it period - any opinions are just that and are of no significance to the creator if they are happy.

    It is the same as me saying that Prestige should maybe be included in FC3 (and I am certainly no COD player) but it would eventually force the top players to start all over again and level up once more - that should not be anything hard if they are so good at the game, however those with high ranks would not agree. That would just be my opinion yet I don't intend to play the game as competitive as others, but still expect to get my own enjoyment when I do play amongst others who are not as serious as some.
    Last edited by LAMBCHOP1972; 06-19-2012 at 10:37 AM.
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  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by LAMBCHOP1972 View Post
    There were a lot of maps that had duel wielding weapons side by side as you said, and some maps had weapon stashes where you could pick up a lot of weapons, or there were weapons in secret areas that generally only the map author new about - and those maps that were extremely one sided where one team had all the health and weapons.

    But that was not EVERY MAP as you stated above, you also stated that EVERY map maker ****ed it up with map design and weapon placement, maybe the fact was that the game was simply not for you.

    There was a phase where people would not put sniper rifles on sniper towers and the duel wielding weapons would be spread out over the map so it was more difficult and sometimes actually hard to duel wield - I have done maps like this myself, FCIP had its issues as does FC2 - No game will ever be perfect or not open to abuse when the player has such control.

    But hey where does it say that when you purchase a Far Cry game every map author will be an amazing and experienced creator - people want different things in their maps and the editor allows this, there is no need to be so rude and disrespectful in your opinions, a large majority of people are happy with what they create and they like the way they play, if you don't like it then make your own maps or stick to the ones that ship with the game.

    Speaking on that topic I guess the Developers of Instincts / Evolutions as you say ****ed it up also then did they with their weapon placement in their maps that came with the game - The answer is simple you just don't like weapon placement and don't like the early Far Cry game but to degrade every person who has ever made a map on those games is **** arrogant.

    Some maps I have played on had only Evolutions in them for weapons - the map was an arena style with the aim to get an evo - turn into a Predator and kill, the author will have achieved what they set out to do when creating the map so it is not for us to say that they don't know what they are doing or that they are a joke - if a map author is happy with their map then that is the end of it period - any opinions are just that and are of no significance to the creator if they are happy.

    It is the same as me saying that Prestige should maybe be included in FC3 (and I am certainly no COD player) but it would eventually force the top players to start all over again and level up once more - that should not be anything hard if they are so good at the game, however those with high ranks would not agree. That would just be my opinion yet I don't intend to play the game as competitive as others, but still expect to get my own enjoyment when I do play amongst others who are not as serious as some.
    Was it every map maker? No. Did 95% of the maps have horrendous weapon replacement, joke armor placements and generally sucked? Yes, which forced you to trudge through all the crappy maps to find a decent one which still played considerably worse than the standard maps/

    No, I loved the game. I was the best player on FC:IP and FC2 and on the best clan in both of them. I dont think the devs messed up weapon replacement on instincts/evolution, im arguing to the contrary that they actually know what balance is, how to place weapons, avoid large weapon stashes. Armors are never lumped together, you actually had to fight for them and control them, instead of everybody having 100/150 armor when they left the base as most player-created maps do.

    My criticism was that in the dev maps there is NEVER (aside from river city STS) where two akimbo'd weapons lay side by side, which is a good thing. You need to earn them. WHat don't map makers get about this? Yet you see this in 90% of player-made maps cause im convinced hardly any of the map makers know what it means to develop a good competitive map, cause they never even play the game. They lack the insight of what works and doesnt work.

    They may be able to create niche maps such as tons of predator spawn vials, or even breathtaking maps, but in the end they still play bad. What are you talking about with prestige? Makes no sense. Now, map makers can be as happy as they want to be, but it is also my right to throw constructive criticism at you.

    Also to get the best idea on why maps are a joke (fcip) ill give you this video : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPFXcsmRn2I
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  7. #7
    Senior Member FALLEN CHAMP's Avatar
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    The beauty of the Far Cry game is that the player can create what they want - if they are happy with THEIR map and others enjoy that map then what is the issue -just because you don't like it that does not mean that the map is bad - It is just opinions as I keep on saying, there is no right or wrong.

    So you keep saying how almost all map makers are a joke - so which maps did you put together which are so amazing then MR PERFECT - Mr I know Everything and everyone is wrong except for you - and also to say that YOU are the best player on FCIP and FC2 that just shows what an arrogant person you are, I am surprised your head has not exploded with the ego inside it.

    What name did you play under on FCIP then, and what name are you playing under on FC3 so I can make sure I don't join any match you might be hosting, I like to avoid players like you.

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------
    I know of one player who actually re-made Pacific Coast and placed in weapons which he believed made the map more balanced then the original map on FCIP - This same player has often asked other map authors to alter some of the weapons in their maps which has helped his play style - His idea of what weapons are correct in that game might be different from yours but I am trying to get through to you that neither is right or wrong - simply your own personal preference.

    If people are happy with the game and how it plays with their own choices in map design or spawn / weapon placement - let them be happy, it is not for us to pull them apart or say bad things just because it does not suit our style, and A GOOD PLAYER should be able to adapt to any map or the placement of weapons if they like it or not.

    You reply and call me what you will and then lets leave it at that - Agree to Disagree because this is going nowhere.
    You claim that everyone is a bad map maker with bad weapon placement and that YOU are the best player on FCIP / FC2 - Good for you man, well done.

    I am saying let people build a map how they want to and if you don't like it then simply leave and let them be happy with the players that stick around.

    That's all I can say about that - Have a good time slating others on here because I am done with your insults.
    Last edited by LAMBCHOP1972; 06-19-2012 at 10:32 PM.
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  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by LAMBCHOP1972 View Post
    The beauty of the Far Cry game is that the player can create what they want - if they are happy with THEIR map and others enjoy that map then what is the issue -just because you don't like it that does not mean that the map is bad - It is just opinions as I keep on saying, there is no right or wrong.

    So you keep saying how almost all map makers are a joke - so which maps did you put together which are so amazing then MR PERFECT - Mr I know Everything and everyone is wrong except for you - and also to say that YOU are the best player on FCIP and FC2 that just shows what an arrogant person you are, I am surprised your head has not exploded with the ego inside it.

    What name did you play under on FCIP then, and what name are you playing under on FC3 so I can make sure I don't join any match you might be hosting, I like to avoid players like you.

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------
    I know of one player who actually re-made Pacific Coast and placed in weapons which he believed made the map more balanced then the original map on FCIP - This same player has often asked other map authors to alter some of the weapons in their maps which has helped his play style - His idea of what weapons are correct in that game might be different from yours but I am trying to get through to you that neither is right or wrong - simply your own personal preference.

    If people are happy with the game and how it plays with their own choices in map design or spawn / weapon placement - let them be happy, it is not for us to pull them apart or say bad things just because it does not suit our style, and A GOOD PLAYER should be able to adapt to any map or the placement of weapons if they like it or not.

    You reply and call me what you will and then lets leave it at that - Agree to Disagree because this is going nowhere.
    You claim that everyone is a bad map maker with bad weapon placement and that YOU are the best player on FCIP / FC2 - Good for you man, well done.

    I am saying let people build a map how they want to and if you don't like it then simply leave and let them be happy with the players that stick around.

    That's all I can say about that - Have a good time slating others on here because I am done with your insults.
    Wow, youre so whiny. I dont need to tell you my gamertag cause you'll be making course maps while i actually play multiplayer, we'd never met. I told you the reasons why the vast majority of maps are **** and you do nothing to counter.I haven't called you any names, so dont play the victim card here. I'm sorry i hurt your feelings insulting the map making community. But when they turn out unbalanced sides, armor/weapon placement that is lazy im just calling it how the competitive players see it. I think map makers can build beautiful structures, but they spend 0.001% of their time actually considering how it plays rather than how it looks.
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  9. #9
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    The topic"s getting rather heated. Maybe each one should consider the other's point of view or just don't care. Personnally, I'm tired of that vehicules question. I guess the game will be good even without.
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by otarosrun View Post
    Wow, youre so whiny. I dont need to tell you my gamertag cause you'll be making course maps while i actually play multiplayer, we'd never met. I told you the reasons why the vast majority of maps are **** and you do nothing to counter.I haven't called you any names, so dont play the victim card here. I'm sorry i hurt your feelings insulting the map making community. But when they turn out unbalanced sides, armor/weapon placement that is lazy im just calling it how the competitive players see it. I think map makers can build beautiful structures, but they spend 0.001% of their time actually considering how it plays rather than how it looks.
    Do you have any idea who you are talking to? LAMBCHOP1972 is well known in the Far Cry community since 2005, I presumed. Your refusal to unveil your own gamertag has shown us that you're afraid of him in some way. He is an administrator of a website that is completely dedicated for the Far Cry mapping community that allows us, the players, to download thousands and thousands of user made maps that are uploaded into the database and can be downloaded into the hard drive of an Xbox 360, PlayStation 3, PC and of course, the original Xbox.

    As for me, I always try my best to place balanced weapon and vehicle placement in Far Cry Instincts, Far Cry Instincts Evolution and Far Cry Instincts Predator. I also happened to win a map making contest in Far Cry Instincts Evolution. The very same map I made is remade and better optimized for balance issues.

    So, "MR. PERFECT", do you develop any maps at all? The reason why LAMBCHOP1972 is asking for your gamertag is to prove if you are *indeed* the so called *best player* in the *best clan* in the franchise. That, and to see if your maps are any good. As for the latter, I would want to see your creations and I would love to critique them. Your insults only adds how much of an immature person you are, particularly playing a Rated M game that's suitable for adults. If you're old enough, you should treat others with respect as if you're an adult, not someone who taunts and claims being the best of the best and to put down other players by being immature. And judging from your behavior, you are not worth LAMBCHOP1972's time.
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