Spies vs. Mercs - Let's Theorise! | Forums

[Fruitarian]

First of all, I must say what a delight it is that Max was allowed to announce the return of the finest adversarial challenge ever born to console. Thanks Ubisoft for listening, and Zack Antoine for more interactivity from the start.

This thread is about protecting and insuring the legacy of the SvM experience we know and love. Primarily, I would like us to discuss the solutions to the evolved gameplay style in multiplayer until we know more about how Toronto are approaching this rebirth.


Most significantly, I want to go with the assumption, as I think it is all but inescapable with games being developed under pressure and with a view to consistency of experience, that the two following gameplay elements WILL BE PRESENT IN MULTIPLAYER

• Mark and Execute - we need to face it, I think there is no chance this core feature will not again be present in multiplayer as in Conviction.
• Automatic Nightvision - again, much as many of us preferred control, I think this is too large an accessibility change for them to regress.

So what I want to know is, how can we theorise the game we want, and include these features which I'm certain will be present? Can we make it work to our satisfaction? I'm hoping that through discussion we can inform the devs as to our minimum expectations. There is after all a lot of recovery to do here. In Conviction, adversarial was reduced to one vs. one spy matches, where both could AUTOMATICALLY see in the dark, with no objective aside from killing, and with ALL of the meta-layer of hacking interaction gone. SvM is adored today because to me it represents the deepest action multiplayer experience ever conceived, and my worry now, is that accessibility will only allow us a shadow of the former game, to please the quick-fix crowds.


MY FAVOURITES:

Here are my favourite parts of SvM which I won't feel has returned to us uncompromised if they are absent:

1. THE INTERACTIVITY LAYER - tension building and authentic feeling, to have players interact with their environments was critical to the depth and pressure of the competition. I think this should be extended for both archetypes, so have Spies once again have to observe and respond to the tactical challenge of their environment I.e. Avoid sensors / detection (more varied than powering down cameras or shutting off lasers), actually interact with objectives, again in a more varied way than waiting for a meter to fill. And on the Merc side, having all of this information feed into their awareness was beautiful. I want to see the return of sensors they can place to aid their detection. The Merc side of SvM was one of the most unique experiences you could find online. Having the feeling that you were being attacked by a quick and deadly force, but that the security network around you was your eyes and ears. I want a stronger sense of connection and responsiveness between Merc and his digital fortress. It was amazing to have detection alerts triggering, have one check the cameras (exposing themselves to sabotage) and another rush the objective.
2. SHADOWPLAY - no high like it, to slip by a human controlled opponent just by working the shadows.
3. CUSTOMIZATION - one thing Conviction enhanced, and being a Ubisoft game, will be improved on in spades I'm sure. I would like to see not only a wardrobe and a tailoring of our gadgets, but ways to make BOTH our Spies and Mercs more distinctively our own. So suit abilities or gadgets all with gameplay effects. Ranking appearance. I know how much that top Merc suit meant to me, and that was only one of three.
4. LONGEVITY - with a game this deep, longevity is almost guaranteed. But to support that, I think we have waited long enough to have some evolution of this engagement. I would like to see a richer social level. Ways to see and challenge our friends, perhaps gambling against one another on certain outcomes for the mission. There are lots of other great ideas here. For Maps, I would love if the security elements could be dynamic. So sensor placement would vary, and always change the awareness of a spy rather than it becoming routine. Laser gates say, could spawn on one of three configurations. The maps should be more sophisticated than Conviction's. More layers, more light changes, more air ducts, or usable elements. I also think it would be great to see more of the cinematic developments recently to multiplayer. A fly through of the dynamic map to start? Random spawning from a range of locations for the infiltrators? A cinematic camera to replay the best moments at the finish, or show of the actual avatars when the accolades are listed? More ways for us to see and engage with the development of our hopefully unique characters.

MY CONCERNS:

Ways in which all of this hope could disintegrate. I'm sorry to say that after Convictions multiplayer effort, Blacklist is the first in the series, I will be waiting to experience before buying. Too much trust gone. The replay ability of the Deniable Ops was worth the ticket price, but missing competitive was criminal. Now that they've figured out a way to do it justice, and have announced it to us, I'm glad they waited

1. MARK N EXECUTE - how will they be integrating this. I think they'll take Conviction's lead and awkwardly not have us able to m&e each othe, but that means the inevitability of a new AI component in the mix., and these, logically, will have to be support for the Mercs. How do you feel that affects the atmosphere and tension and balance? If we can m&e each other, how willl that ever work? Surely a spy would do a handtohand takedown, and then wait until completing an objective, to execute any approaching Mercs. I just can't see the balance working. If it is to be only for the AI, then will their presence make the spy's task too obstructed? I don't know that they would. If anything I felt 2 vs. 2 to be a little too lonely at times. If m&e is in, can it be sparing, harder to earn, and reward with a slow motion killcam calling out both players gamer tags?
2. MAPS - maps in SvM need to be living entities. They are fortresses, alive and aware. I think for them to survive, they need limitless pathings, and dynamic elements to challenge and surprise the spies. EDIT : just thought some more on this, and realised how great it could be if each map were a key secure site on a map, and each map had its own stats and identity. So high/low security, high/low guard presence, and then the value of the data, maybe even high/low encryption. All of these elements could be dynamic to keep the playlist feeling fresh. So you might target a high security facility for a challenge if the reward was higher, and likewise as a Merc you might defend where the AI are stronger today as you want an easier time, or there are rewards for keeping more of the human detail alive? Also they could show user ratings. So times hacked today. Favourite objectives. Mini leader boards for each location? All would suit the airborne base where we access our missions..
3. INTEL - that they are leaving this layer out for ease. It will be run and gun action acrobatics, with a Merc with a single weapon, endless neck snapping AI, and no patience required. If it is a third person action experience with stealth elements, then it is no different to uncharted or ghost recon. It is these additional layers of sophistication which make it SC. Conviction denied a lot of this information level, to return to form, I hope they have catered to the hardcore. I got trained how to play SvM by great players, and no it wasn't easy to learn, but kept me thrilled. A similar way for veteran players to introduce novices is all it needs not to have to compromise the core game into a samey accessible shooter.

Thanks for listening everyone. Zack, keep the channels open, so that what you're reviving isn't some Frankenstein that nobody expected.

[Andre202]

I really don't think they will include M&E. I really don't think they will do that, it would be just unbelieveable.
I assume Ubisoft Annecy will work on the MP and I think it will be like DA when it comes to gameplay. Spy vs Merc will be more similar to the version of next gen DA when it comes to animations and movement. When it comes to gameplay they will hopefully look at PT and CT. I may be completely wrong here though.

[Fruitarian]

I hope you are right, but I want us to explore the alternative rather than avoid it. If it IS THERE, as I suspect it will be for consistency, then HOW do we want it to function?

[reddragonhrcro]

Pretty much agree as SvM has been different from the singleplayer in DA for example,as if those 2 were seperate games to say it.So pretty much the SvM could be totaly different from the Singleplayer and Deniable Ops.

[Fruitarian]

I think we're in a different generation of gaming now. Streamlining strengthens the brand, improves consistency, and saves money. It's a long time since DA. Blacklist is a creation of Conviction's Creative Director. They don't spend all the extra time to develop 'killing in motion' not to have it in multiplayer.

Us saying 'it will be different to the core game' just prepares us for disappointment. That's why we can be constructive here and figure out what solution they may have created..

[qJohnnyp]

As long as it's Ubisoft Annecy doing this gamemode, I have faith in them. They did a great job with Assassin's Cred, I believe they have returned to former glory and won't repeat the mistakes od DA.

[Fruitarian]

Doesn't it give you shivers to think we may get to play some multiplayer this QUIET!


http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?desktop...aiA0&gl=GB

[braiog]

SvM needs a step back to CT times. There ARE some parts of DA, IMO, that moved in the right direction, but too many core aspects of the game moved in the wrong.

First, I'd like to see the game move back to 2v2. Second, I'd like to see the Spies get their Taser Rifles back. Spies need an emphasis put back on acrobatics, interaction with the environment and generally being very nimble. We also need to see the sound sensor return and the removal of the proximity detector. Spies should be rewarded for being silent, and not penalized just because a Merc happened to walk by.

Mercenaries need emphasis on hunting, tracking, surveillance and brute force power. Their ability to interact in a limited manner (such as rappeling) was a good idea to me. It's 1 direction but allowed them to use key locations to take shortcuts. Also, I liked DA's remote hacking but I think it should be up to the Spy to hack a terminal up close (for maximum speed) or at range (for safer download, but progressively slower download speeds)

I was a fan of the always-on motion vision for Mercs, which required 3rd person view Spies to be aware if they were in the line of sight of Mercs. But a crouched Spy moving at less than full speed shouldn't show up.

The cat and mouse feeling this game had (either Spy or Merc could be either) really kept you on your toes. I really hope they promote this game and even develop it on its own 2 feet so that it could come out before Blacklist and more people could try it. Rarely have I ever played such an addictive game mode. For it being a simple 2v2, I really hope Ubi gives it some attention worth its while.

[CoolBrinkman]

Mark and Execute is a cool function, trust me; but for SvM it really shouldn't be interfering with the already amazing design. Ubisoft is a company that seems to like offering customization abilities and multiple game modes (in Conviction at least). I just hope they decide to implement their M&E in one of their custom game modes, and leave classic SvM without the M&E ability.

It truly is the most logical thing they could do, as they are offering the best of both worlds: their badass Sam Fisher character with the deadly abilities, and the sneaky spies with the ability to somersault through the shadows undetected.

As for SvM:
Bring back motion detectors that can be shot with the stun gun from a distance to temporarily disable their functionality.
Bring back trip and proximity mines for the mercs. Maybe even try the same for the spies, smoke mines or flash mines perhaps.
Never was a big fan of the always-on motion detection by the mercs, though with tweaking I could live with it.
Infinite ammo and regenerating health should be avoided. First aid and ammo crates broke up the maps and caused teams to split, making the game more fair.

The maps should be able to cause uneasiness or even mild stomach discomfort by rattling your nerves when you are alone without a partner in SvM. This is what made SvM great for me; the ability to be terrified of what was around the corner and to be doubtful of your judgement of the enemies.

I believe Ubisoft's consumers won't let them down in designing the perfect online experience. Direct them to this thread Fruitarian.

[Fruitarian]

Mark and Execute is a cool function, trust me; but for SvM it really shouldn't be interfering with the already amazing design. Ubisoft is a company that seems to like offering customization abilities and multiple game modes (in Conviction at least). I just hope they decide to implement their M&E in one of their custom game modes, and leave classic SvM without the M&E ability.

It truly is the most logical thing they could do, as they are offering the best of both worlds: their badass Sam Fisher character with the deadly abilities, and the sneaky spies with the ability to somersault through the shadows undetected.

As for SvM:
Bring back motion detectors that can be shot with the stun gun from a distance to temporarily disable their functionality.
Bring back trip and proximity mines for the mercs. Maybe even try the same for the spies, smoke mines or flash mines perhaps.
Never was a big fan of the always-on motion detection by the mercs, though with tweaking I could live with it.
Infinite ammo and regenerating health should be avoided. First aid and ammo crates broke up the maps and caused teams to split, making the game more fair.

The maps should be able to cause uneasiness or even mild stomach discomfort by rattling your nerves when you are alone without a partner in SvM. This is what made SvM great for me; the ability to be terrified of what was around the corner and to be doubtful of your judgement of the enemies.

I believe Ubisoft's consumers won't let them down in designing the perfect online experience. Direct them to this thread Fruitarian.

Ha! Will do my best. I just want us to explore the possibilities, and try to fathom how they can have built a new SvM with this quicker action core. I put too much trust in the PR for Conviction's multiplayer, only to be horrified with a under-thought experience - one on one with permanently on Nightvision and sonar! If they can lose sight of the thrillingly nervous experience to that degree - then just knowing SvM is returning is not enough. We should try and discuss the possible development routes they have taken, and by hypothesising let them know while they have time to adapt, what our feeling are. And not by the time we have a demo in our hands..