shobhit7777777
Logic Loophole there BobOriginally Posted by BoBwUzHeRe1138
The absence of a video showing Conviction like speeds is not proof enough that said speeds are impossible to attain.
@Sage
WHAT?!?! No cash? You said we'd split it 50/50
Logic Loophole there Bob
The absence of a video showing Conviction like speeds is not proof enough that said speeds are impossible to attain.
@Sage
WHAT?!?! No cash? You said we'd split it 50/50
^ Sometimes grumpy, it'll probably get worse as I get older and uglier.
Thanks though.
P.S. "Impossible don't exist".
for the night is dark and full of terrors
@Shobhit
I'll give you 50% of nothing brother, I stick to my word.
Thanks for the support.
I'm SURE there are people out there that could completely dispell the disbelief. I've seen males and females perform climbing feats that are just down right embarrassing to me. A lot of them have good overall muscle distribution, total body strength, I mean, the fingers alone......crackhead strong! I just dabble, I think I have decent climbing ability but it's not even low average compared to the real climbers. It's more like low LOW. Ha!
for the night is dark and full of terrors
Look at you go. So stealthy! I was expecting you to have actually proven your point, when I saw this thread.
In SCC, it's a ledge RUN. Not a ledge gaping climb. Sam actually RUNS, one hand bearing all his weight, while he pushes sideways with one foot, grabbing onto the ledge with the free hand, lifting the other hand and foot, again bearing all his weight on one. In your video, you had all your weight on both hands and (usually) feet, each time you moved sideways. Like climbing steps, and it almost seems like you're lifting yourself into position. Physics would take over if you attempted to RUN it, like SCC, so I'm sticking to my hypothesis. No doubt in my mind I can CLIMB like this, but I still can't SCC ledge-RUN.
However, your demonstration is a lot closer to the slower, half-speed, ledge movement, in SCC.
I appreciate your sacrifice, Sage, but I still can't lay this one to rest. SCC ledge-running speed is still unrealistic in my mind. Your hard attempt at it confirms it, in my mind. You even said, yourself, in the second video, "Not as quick as I was *something*".
Bottom line is, I have a solid understanding of physics, and given the animation of SCC ledge-runs, there is nothing about it that I can visually base in reality, given the average weight and strength of a human being.
So sorry. I just can't. Good to see someone so passionate about a forum issue though. Good job!
Last edited by hastings84; 05-22-2012 at 11:18 AM.
Not exactly a logic loop. We have no video proving it's possible. It is also pretty much IMpossible, else traceurs and freerunners would be all over that and you know it. I am telling you that it is physically impossible. The human body cannot do what Sam/Kestrel/Archer does in the game at those speeds.
Now, I can certainly see that maybe ONE or TWO people in the world MIGHT be able to do it -- like those people who are weird but cool on Stan Lee's Superheroes and other shows. But because no one has proven otherwise...I find it...HIGHLY UNLIKELY that someone like Sam would be able to perform the action considering that so far, we know of no one who can definitively say and prove they can doit at said speed.
Well, in Germany they teach us driving the car this way.
@ Sage
Nice!
You did better then I would.
A few things I'll throw in the argument:
Even if you could go as fast as the game, you would never be able to keep it up for more then a short distance. That's why--I would think--SC games have never had a sprint or hold breath feature, because they've never delved into the stamina aspect required to make things like that viable as gameplay features.
I would say your speed--while very impressive--was only about as fast as the slow speed in Conviction--yet you were still quite noisy and the physical cost on your limbs was pretty savage. The animations in SCC would have us believe that the agents float along at lightening speed with no sound penalty. That to me is one of the larger problems. I want to see an animation that suggests weight and mass. Same as climbing along horizontal pipes. We need to see effort, and hear noise from moving at those speeds on any surface.
The technique that the game (and Sage) use, is however a lot more sound then the simple finger grip of the older games. Your feet help--anyone who knows climbing will tell you to use them. However, I think we should also be able to climb (in the game) without the aid of said feet, this is/should be slower though, but some scenarios--cat walks--don't really allow for your feet.
I say make wall running noisy and slow it down a little for the sake of believable stamina. AND make an animation that 'looks' correct.
As Jazz suggested sound needs to play a much bigger role in SC6. I am not sure if they can go into such a depth system as SCCT one which considered every surface you were moving on. For example moving on tiles makes more noise as if you would move on a carpet. The same would go for the surfaces on the wall when they use a similar ledge-run system as they used in SCC. It would be important, as SolidSage sometime ago suggested, that you would be able to have variable speed in any given situation and stances you are using. While being on the ledge or on pipes or using the coversystem, while leaning at wall and so on.
Never said it was stealthy.
A little bit ago you said that it was impossible due to the fact that when you had tried it, the moment you lifted one hand your weight became too much, I quote "There are so many factors. I have tried it at work, on freshly formed concrete house foundations, and the MOST I can manage is the same ledge-hang. (Not moving). I am a physically fit person, and as soon as I take one hand off the ledge, and attempt a step - gravity takes over."
I AM supporting my entire weight one hand at time in the videos. I got minimal to no support from my feet, that's why they look very floaty, all they offered was the ability to maintain a more stable position in regards to my upright positioning. So if I can make a fair mimic in poor conditions, when you can't do a hand over hand, what is the likelihood that a real climber can do significantly more than me? High, I would say.
I was certainly lifting myself into position, it was all arms.
You give no allowances for the disparity between the environments either. I used the edge of a roof, SCC uses nice solid and smoother ledges, I had to use a significant incline, SCC uses flat and level surfaces. Nor do you give any credit to the fact that I am significantly less capable than someone like an SC operator, or that I just got up off the couch with no preperation and went and did something that looks a lot like it on a seriously crap surface.
My attempt was definately slower, and I did say I "remember it being faster", largely because the first time I tried it, it was faster. I felt like I had significant support from my feet the first time I tried it too, like I said, old sneaks and new paint this time made it slippy to the point that I felt there was no involvement from them. Obviously my legs were involved but I don't feel I had access to any of their strength, if you know what I mean. They helped push my lower body away from the wall but there was no support or refief of my weight from them, hance the very heavy handed crossovers.
Again,, this all begs the point, didn't someone have to perform the Ledge Run for motion capture?
While we can all agree that sustaining that type of travel for an extended amount of time, repeatedly, isn't happening, my argument is still that SCC Ledge Run physics and speeds are realistic....in the sense that a man can perform them, not in the sense that it's an effective method for an operator or climber to employ....other than for showing off.
Have you never seen rock climbers using the 'layback' technique? Give those same guys, of who there are many, meaty hand and foot holds and they would have no problem replicating the ledge run. I think you're making estimations based on your own capabilities.
@Andre
You crazy Germans! All about doing it cool. I was taught in a couple of countries that I had to test in, that crossing hands was risky for a few reasons. They all required passing the steering wheel through your hands, and cross overs were a fail.
Different strokes for different folks I guess.
@Jazz
I agree it would be noisy and a huge stamina drain. I think noise should be a drawback for using the ledge run at higher speeds, and stamina too. They could dial the speed down and make it MORE realistic of course, but I'm arguing that those seen in SCC are realistically doable.
Last edited by SolidSage; 05-22-2012 at 04:38 PM.
for the night is dark and full of terrors
I just had another go at it when I went to pick up GRFS. I was prepped to load a vid with a big "suck it" () tag, but alas, I couldn't do it. Brick wall, smooth top. It was too slippy, my fingers kept slipping off. I could do the hand over hand foot over foot, but couldn't achieve any speed. Need sticky gloves or chalk.
Regardless, my lack of ability, or exagerration thereof is irrelevant. The fact that I can do something similar in spite of not being ANY kind of specialist in this area convinces me that experts CAN do it.
Haint you never seen no Cirque Du Soleil?
for the night is dark and full of terrors
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