blackout.. bug or design flaw? | Forums

[LiquidX74]

You guys are making arguments to support blackout, not the 2 minutes of screwover time it creates. I support blackout, I don't support the 2 minutes downtime for everyone it hits.


Suggest to me why blackout needs to lock out unused abilities for 2 minutes. Convince me that it is weak enough (compared to other abilities) +/- to be 800% more effective than every other ability in the game (assuming it only hits 1 person).

So far you've said things like:
it takes time to charge up
it makes me a target
etc etc.

but those things apply to all other abilities as well, and they don't have lasting effects for 2+ minutes.


As far as how often I've been hit with it, granted I generally play in the backfield, so not too many times - however I did recently get hit by it twice in a row - locking me out of my unused ability for 4+ minutes. That means I don't get to use my ability that I generally regard as a fun and somewhat useful part of the game (moreso when my team pays attention). The emp effect is not game breaking but it is broken - nor is it likely a common enough occurrence to get noticed.

I am arguing it is a detriment to fun. I like using my abilities. I find them to be a fun part of the game generally. I like to use them to gain advantages in stalemates, and attempt to gain ground and position on bunkered enemies. When used correctly, and with a team mate to notice, blitz can be as big a game changer as any other ability in the game, but I wouldn't argue that it needs a 2 minute lasting effect because it makes me a target when I use it (don't mention the fact that the shield blocks stuff when it's on my back, b/c that's just as stupid as blackout backfiring - both should be removed). Blackout has a niche just like every other ability - but it allows you and your team to disable and kill potentially many targets when it's deployed. I see no justification for burning players unused abilities - convince me otherwise. And don't default to the "that's what emps do" because this doesn't function like any kind of "real" emp in the first place

From my viewpoint, blackout is very strong, and the only reason people use aegis instead is because aegis is just that much stronger. People generally scatter when they see an aegis popped because their primary weapon is useless against it, and it's difficult to get inside the bubble when the spec has his team pushing with him (more than anything, this is the power of aegis - it's a massive visual cue for your team to push). But I digress.

Examine for a moment the effects of blackout:
benefits
often forces enemies to relocate, lest they be hit by it
disables nearby enemy making them defenseless
negates any active - in use - abilities
disorients nearby enemy (hard to tell exactly what is happening when your screen is gibbled)
provides a large whiteout flash that makes it difficult for even the ranged to tell exactly where targets are
can affect many targets at once.
AND burns all abilities not in use, resetting their cooldown to max duration, making it effective for 2+minutes.

negatives:
Makes you a target
difficult to use
need to be close to the enemy
if not triggered, emps the owner (though this should not happen, even if it does, you can trigger it yourself to avoid this).
equip/deploy time

Compare that list against any other ability and see how they stack up.

aegis:
benefits:
forces enemies to relocate (maybe it doesn't force them, but it is the tendency)
provides ranged invulnerability
aoe effect
long duration

negatives:
makes you a target
makes you walk slow
easy to deploy, difficult to time (aka hard to use to maximum effectiveness)
equip/deploy time


or blitz:
benefits
fast movent / distance closer
knocks down and disables targets that are hit
blocks bullets to the body core (feet, back, and other body parts partially exposed)

negatives
equip/deploy time
unequip time
makes you a target
difficult to use (hit one guy, his buddy shoots you in the back), difficult to control (cornering)
user cannot return fire
Easy to avoid (jump over something, circle strafe, or just empty a clip into it, you'll eventually hit exposed areas) - advent of movement speed on armors makes this even easier

or heat:
benefits
disables enemies, forcing them to cover
does damage (laughable amounts) to those exposed
affects everyone in a frontal cone

negatives
user cannot fire a weapon
user walks slow (slower than aegis)
makes you a target
difficult to use properly
equip/deploy time
unequip time
short duration
can be ranged (70+ yards, 80+ with upgrade can still return fire)
As it provides no disorient, and damage is low, user can easily be charged and hit with melee before significant damage is done


Did I miss anything on any of those? How does blackout compare? Would it really be underpowered if the ability to burn inactive abilities was removed? (that's all I'm trying to put forward).

[Creepermoss]

The Aegis isn't invulnerable to gun fire, lay some LMG fire on it, and you'll cut down it's duration considerably. It's also quite possible to shoot through with the higher powered scoped rifles. Your list is incomplete, as the Aegis is easily countered by any number of other abilities/nades/one guy slipping in. It does NOT provide ranged invulnerability, as I have been OHK'd at range through the shield. Relocation under an advancing Aegis is possibly the worst thing you could do, as you will be shot down trying to escape.

Would it make the blackout weaker if they removed this function? Yes, as any recon could just cloak to negate the effects of being vulnerable, if his cloak wasn't in use when he was emp'd. Or blitz, for that matter. It's disable effect is a full 2 seconds(after the mkII upgrade), and it's partial blindness (for like 10 seconds), it's very possible to track and kill targets while affected. And the part about the flash making you hard to see at range is wrong, as passing your scope or even crosshairs over the emp'er puts a red box around him.

The inaccuracies and missing information in your list makes me think you should try the abilities out before you post any further on this topic. Not an insult, but a suggestion to help you form a more well informed opinion. It's the same thing I tell folks that say all of "x" guns are OP; try one for yourself, and see if it changes your thinking. If you still feel the same after a day or two with said item you may have a point.


Just some extra info here- the shield blocks rounds when it's on your back, it does NOT block them while blitzing (which I think is backwards to how it should be). I can fire the AS Val, which is a laser, into the dead center of that shield, and drop you before you reach me more often than not.

If it does have to be nerfed (and I really don't think it does) a partial cooldown reset would be a better balancing measure than removal. Maybe half of the normal cooldown?

[LovelessMemory]

Did I miss anything on any of those? How does blackout compare? Would it really be underpowered if the ability to burn inactive abilities was removed? (that's all I'm trying to put forward).

I've never really peeked at the cooldowns for the others, but if I recall correctly, Blackout's cooldown is 2.5 minutes, droppable to 2.25 ~ 2 minutes (depending on individual and team upgrades). Granted, it sounds like the other cooldowns are similarly long, so that's parity. With my experience using Blackout in Phase 2 (Phase one I never used it/got hit my it much), you can't just fire it without knowing that you will affect someone and that you will need to act on that, unlike Aegis where you can pop as a precautionary measure.

Personally, I think we can compromise by having Blackout disable inactive abilities, but ones hit by Blackout will have a significantly increased regeneration rate up to at least the point where they were charged prior to being hit. I think that it should burn out inactive abilities, but not for as long as 2 minutes if you wish to balance it out. As mentioned before, Specialists are specialized in breaking stalemates and Blackout and Aegis appears to do it in two different ways: nullify enemy defense or nullify enemy attack respectively. But if you look at Aegis, the longest duration you can get for "nullify attack" is around 22 seconds. Blackout on the other hand will burn out abilities which can be used defensively for a lot longer, but if you remove the burnout ability, I think it loses its effectiveness to break a defense. That is why I think you should be able to shut off abilities for at least a short time, but the key is that it shouldn't be so long.

Also...If I recall, Heat damage can be amped by focusing the cone, sacrificing AoE for intensity.

[gameshoes]

Blackout is essentially a Martyr ability. You sacrifice the usage of Aegis in order to make sure the enemy cannot use their abilities for the same amount of time; and this isn't even a guaranteed success. Most abilities have the 150 second cooldown except for the Recon abilities. You're also putting the victims' cooldowns to match yours so that you can tell when their abilities are ready again; it's an incredibly useful ability that adds an extra layer of tactics to the game.
Blackout is also more oriented for defense than offense. See an Aegis or Blitz push? Charge up that Blackout. Now you'll know that another push is ready in 150 seconds.

[LiquidX74]

The Aegis isn't invulnerable to gun fire, lay some LMG fire on it, and you'll cut down it's duration considerably.

and be shot in the face in the process unless the people moving with the aegis are preoccupied (yay teamwork)

It's also quite possible to shoot through with the higher powered scoped rifles.

I have never seen this happen, nor been successful in doing this with my recon (sentinel rifle), so I suspect this is either inaccurate, or has such a low chance of happening as to make it negligible. I have also dumped multiple clips into an aegis with my assault's mk16 to zero effect (no identifiable effect on duration, and definitely no penetrating shots).

Your list is incomplete, as the Aegis is easily countered by any number of other abilities/nades/one guy slipping in.

I said ranged. it's pretty hard to throw a timed grenade with any accuracy from more than perhaps the width of a capture zone. The grenade can take weird bounces, or if not enough time is taken to aim the throw, perhaps it rolls right out the other side (or worse hits the aegis in mid air and bounces harmlessly away).

As far as someone sneaking in and killing the aegis or blitzing, heat /etc - all abilities are vulnerable to this so I did not list them. But since you brought it up, blitz is nearly useless in this regard as the assault can stop the aegis, but cannot kill the spec because his team mates that were pushing with the aegis will gun him down quickly, and since the aegis still functions after a blitz, it still negates most of the enemy team's attempts to disable the aegis.

I think my point stands, but if you insist that you can be shot through the aegis barrier, then that makes blackout even stronger in relation.

Relocation under an advancing Aegis is possibly the worst thing you could do, as you will be shot down trying to escape.

How much have you played this game? This happens all the time - further if you get shot trying to relocate, what makes trying to dump ammo into it any safer.

Would it make the blackout weaker if they removed this function? Yes, as any recon could just cloak to negate the effects of being vulnerable,

and yet if cloak were active when emp went off, it would burn their junk out anyways, not just cancel the effect right? So they can't recloak. You're talking about the recon risking himself and using strategy to survive. How is that a bad thing?

if his cloak wasn't in use when he was emp'd. Or blitz, for that matter. It's disable effect is a full 2 seconds, and it's partial blindness, it's very possible to track and kill targets while affected. And the part about the flash making you hard to see at range is wrong, as passing your scope or even crosshairs over the emp'er puts a red box around him.

And yet if the ability were not in use at the time of the emp, you've still disabled the player and likely killed him in that time. Moreover if you're talking about teamwork - say someone survives the initial disable and uses his ability to counter attack - then the spec's advancing team should make quick work of him in most cases anyways. The EMP disable, much like blitz's knockdown lasts long enough for a single person to kill 2 targets - if your team is moving with you, the players affected by blackout are guaranteed to be dead.

As far as the 'red box' goes - sure it puts a box around them, but it still obscures vision. Meaning that red box could be behind a wall or other cover. I don't think you've giving that enough credit. It is easily as difficult to see through as a grenade blast, though it affects a wider area - and that's assuming you're going to spend enough time peeking around a corner to discern that the red box is indeed, not behind cover - (making yourself an easy target for opposing snipers),

The inaccuracies and missing information in your list makes me think you should try the abilities out before you post any further on this topic.

I have a lvl 27 assault, and a 12 sniper and I think a lvl 4 spec - I'm familiar with their abilities plenty, and I have seen the effects of specialist abilities since the second friends and family beta. i think I am familiar enough with their abilities to make the statements I have. The fact that you are nitpicking minute details (that I have not seen occur mind you), makes me think you are attempting to defend a bias.

It's the same thing I tell folks that say all of "x" guns are OP; try one for yourself, and see if it changes your thinking. If you still feel the same after a day or two with said item you may have a point.

having your special ability stripped away for 2 minutes does not equate to trying a new gun. it is no where near as trivial. This can potentially create a scenario where one team has abilities to use, and the other does not. Meaning, one team will steamroll the other for the next 2 minutes. It is in complete imbalance with all other special abilities as far as effectiveness is concerned. Maybe it should disable the use of all abilities for 10-15 seconds since that seems to be your point of defense - which would still be strong to win a battle, but not nearly strong enough to turn the tide of a map. IE: it would be inline with other abilities.

Just some extra info here- the shield blocks rounds when it's on your back, it does NOT block them while blitzing (which I think is backwards to how it should be). I can fire the AS Val, which is a laser, into the dead center of that shield, and drop you before you reach me more often than not.

I believe it does block shots while blitzing - but it has more holes than swiss cheese - so it is likely you are hitting an unprotected extremity, or perhaps the shield mechanic only blocks a certain number of rounds per second or something - because I have also dumped a clip from my mk16 (which sprays a lot) - into a charging assault and had no more than a couple hit (much more effective if you aim for the exposed area, or wait for him to get 1/2 way past you, exposing all the meat.

[LiquidX74]

I've never really peeked at the cooldowns for the others, but if I recall correctly, Blackout's cooldown is 2.5 minutes, droppable to 2.25 ~ 2 minutes (depending on individual and team upgrades). Granted, it sounds like the other cooldowns are similarly long, so that's parity. With my experience using Blackout in Phase 2 (Phase one I never used it/got hit my it much), you can't just fire it without knowing that you will affect someone and that you will need to act on that, unlike Aegis where you can pop as a precautionary measure.

are you suggesting it can't be used if no one is close by? IE: charge it up and trigger it before the self emp timer runs out? I can't recall trying on my specialist (which granted, has been time limited) - but that would seem to suggest that the ability is aware of targets around you, which I'm pretty sure is not the case....

Personally, I think we can compromise by having Blackout disable inactive abilities, but ones hit by Blackout will have a significantly increased regeneration rate up to at least the point where they were charged prior to being hit. I think that it should burn out inactive abilities, but not for as long as 2 minutes if you wish to balance it out.

Provided the burn out time is no longer than 30 seconds (still too long imo considering everything else it is capable of doing), that would definitely be a more attractive option. My point of contention is primarily that anyone hit by blackout is generally likely to be killed, so making them less effective for what can be an eternity in game time after they respawn is overkill.

As mentioned before, Specialists are specialized in breaking stalemates and Blackout and Aegis appears to do it in two different ways: nullify enemy defense or nullify enemy attack respectively. But if you look at Aegis, the longest duration you can get for "nullify attack" is around 22 seconds. Blackout on the other hand will burn out abilities which can be used defensively for a lot longer, but if you remove the burnout ability, I think it loses its effectiveness to break a defense.

I would suggest that all abilities are potentially equally effective at breaking stalemates - provided a team rallies around the use of an ability properly. IE: blitz on it's own is pretty weak, but if it is followed up by a rush of team mates, it can tear a defensive flank wide open. So I think saying specialists specialize in breaking stalemates is a bunk defense.

Even without the burnout of unused abilities, blackout can allow a team to advance and take control of a particular point in a map. Granted, it's not going to get you through a doorway that's being watched by 4 snipers - nothing short of aegis will do that - but on a map like oilrig (used in close quarters at A or B for example), Any capture point on korolyov towers (whatever it's called), or moscow city which provides a multitude of grouping points - disabling opponents alone is plenty strong enough to allow a team (or even a solo specialist if he's good) to take control of a point.

That is why I think you should be able to shut off abilities for at least a short time, but the key is that it shouldn't be so long.

I can buy that - short term ability short out - As I said, my main concern was having been killed already, I get doubly punished when I respawn - for no good reason.

Also...If I recall, Heat damage can be amped by focusing the cone, sacrificing AoE for intensity.

Possible, that doesn't make it any more useful really - in all likelihood, you're going to get shot from someone in the backfield before it ticks more than three times anyways. At best, it forces players to take cover for the 5-6 seconds (not sure on the length - I've discarded it due to it's magnitude of terrible) it lasts - allowing a team to move up a few yards. But again, because it only affects the immediate area, someone in the backfield is going to have a party while they snipe you or your advancing team mates.

[Creepermoss]

You're wrong about the blitz, and you're wrong about the Aegis. How much have I played this game? Level 12 assault, level 9 recon, level 24 spec. I have spent considerably more time with the Aegis than you have, I know what I'm talking about. You clearly do NOT know about Aegis in particular, as your information is flat out wrong. Laying slightly out of cover, pouring fire onto any portion of the Aegis shield (yes, anywhere on the shield will do) is the best way to drop one quickly, and catch the spec using it unaware.

The fact that you DON'T have correct information makes me think you, sir, are incorrect. How long you've been here isn't relevant, if you don't know how the abilities you're talking about work. Because YOU haven't seen it, means it doesn't happen? Yeah, good argument there.

Like I said originally, if it took you this long to figure out what the emp does (and I was assuming you started in phase 2, you've been here much longer than I thought) then you're not informed, or not paying attention, either of which casts serious doubts on your credibility on this issue. The fact that you don't know that bullets penetrate the blitz shield, and it's your primary class' ability, speaks volumes. "I believe" does not hold up vs "I know", as one is opinion and the other provable, repeatable fact. I don't believe this is how these things function, I know from experience and developer's patch notes. Fact vs opinion is a bad starting point for any discussion.

I know exactly what the limits/counters/ and benefits of both abilities my preferred class uses. I have also added two suggestions for your perusal, and while you like to point out what you perceive as holes in my argument, you have yet to acknowledge either of my suggestions.


Do I have to post video? I'll grab some today, if that's what it takes. Because proof is greater than conjecture.

[LovelessMemory]

are you suggesting it can't be used if no one is close by? IE: charge it up and trigger it before the self emp timer runs out? I can't recall trying on my specialist (which granted, has been time limited) - but that would seem to suggest that the ability is aware of targets around you, which I'm pretty sure is not the case...

Sorry for that confusion. The Blackout fires instantly, meaning anyone who enters the area post-effect will not be stymied. On the other hand, Aegis operates over a duration, so any reinforcements who come in will still have to deal with the bubble.

I would suggest that all abilities are potentially equally effective at breaking stalemates - provided a team rallies around the use of an ability properly. IE: blitz on it's own is pretty weak, but if it is followed up by a rush of team mates, it can tear a defensive flank wide open. So I think saying specialists specialize in breaking stalemates is a bunk defense.

Point taken.

I can buy that - short term ability short out - As I said, my main concern was having been killed already, I get doubly punished when I respawn - for no good reason.

Given a guaranteed maximum recharge time of 30 seconds after being hit, would it be better to return the charge level upon respawning, knowing that it can still take a while for you to get back into the fight from your own spawn? Personally, I don't mind it just being reverted upon respawn.

Possible, that doesn't make it any more useful really - in all likelihood, you're going to get shot from someone in the backfield before it ticks more than three times anyways. At best, it forces players to take cover for the 5-6 seconds (not sure on the length - I've discarded it due to it's magnitude of terrible) it lasts - allowing a team to move up a few yards. But again, because it only affects the immediate area, someone in the backfield is going to have a party while they snipe you or your advancing team mates.

Sorry, I've never touched Assault or Recon and I'm just relaying second-hand information, so I don't know so much about Heat or it's failings in detail. I'm fine with a few buffs to it, and I wasn't really saying it was good in the first place, just passing off some off-hand information.

[gameshoes]

Aigoo...... 80% of this isn't even a discussion anymore. It's just bickering.

[chemzero]

Aigoo...... 80% of this isn't even a discussion anymore. It's just bickering.

I'm starting to agree.

Let's keep it a discussion and not an argument, otherwise I'll just be forced to close the thread