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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Tecness0 View Post
    Well, this game is supposed to embody a bit of realism, is it not?
    'Embody'? Some aspects of the paint job and some of the jargon perhaps; but none of the weapon metrics are remotely realistic, to scale, or even proportionally consistent within their caliber, design, or method of operation...

    Quote Originally Posted by Tecness0 View Post
    Do you think they were thinking of balance when they created nukes? Probably not.
    Do you think puppies are cuter then kitties? Are you suggesting that nukes be added to the game now?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tecness0 View Post
    Semi-automatic sniper rifles, they completely defy any "balance" models you have. They can fire and have massive damage, but fire faster than most other sniper rifles. Why? Because that's how they were built.
    Why because? Creating and answering your own premise that has nothing to do with the OT because? You can't stay on topic, or even make the effort to read and understand what you're replying to...

    GR:O's OP semi-automatic sniper rifles are capable of easily being balanced even with applying more realism if that's your desire. GR:O's sniper rifles are OP because they're simplistic and have no handling metrics. No one in th e real world could wield a 16+ pound sniper rifle that kicks like a mule, semi-auto or otherwise the way they're handled in GR:O (per the OT post ya know); it's physically impossible to crouch in cover in any posture even remotely resembling those in the game, snap heavy long rifle to aim, compensate your range to target, hold your breath, steady your aim, fire a shot, and move back to cover in under a second. In GRO you can not only do this, but you can do it repeatedly, often faster then the net-code allows the player your shooting at to even see you move.

    In the real world and many more realistic games: scope bob, breath hold, setup time, and ranging your target are a part of long range shooting which does very nicely at balancing sniper weapons weapons in these games.

    Similarly, in the real world and many more realistic games: a light machine or SAW gunner could suppress a sniper making it completely impossible for the sniper to raise his head and no less peek and fire for the duration of suppression.... In GR:O a Sniper can snap out of cover under a hail of the most accurate fire the the game's LMGs offer (which is absurdly inaccurate btw) from the supported position, not even take any damage, and shoot the LMG gunner, be back in cover before anyone saw it happen and do this over and over consistently -- I know barbecue I've done it, and been on the receiving end...

    This is not only absurdly unrealistic, it's bad game design, because an LMG that's less accurate and does less time/damage then pistol is not only absurd, counter to all realism game canon, it makes the weapon's 'specialization' fairly useless...

    Quote Originally Posted by Tecness0 View Post
    I don't know how much "depth" a game that is basically, shoot your enemy, capture this point, defend this point, capture these points, defend these points, shoot even more, ect, will have.
    Obviously you don't 'know', but take a look at some of the fire-maneuver and cover fire tactics that get used in other games, and that more coordinated squads and fire-teams will try and use in GR:O like, bounding, RTFA or 'Ready Team Fire Assist' as the U.S. Marines brand the tactical fire-team doctrine. While I agree GR:O's objective design is as simplistic as it gets, that doesn't mean you have to approach it simplistically.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tecness0 View Post
    You answer your own question in a way. Because people are not making posts, or participating in surveys, that means they aren't playing the game?
    And you know this how? Then what's your explanation for that the server "Activity" level monitor going from "High" and green at the start of the beta, all the way down to "Low" yellow and now even consistently red in the match-making dialog... How do you account for the three to five players I see leave literally every game in explicitly declared frustration with aspects of the games design discussed in the OT post?


    Quote Originally Posted by Tecness0 View Post
    As there are reasons why people will leave this game, there are much more as to why people will stay.
    Then why are so many leaving? And the OT, have you read it, right? Is not about the people that stay, it's about declared reasons people have left the game... Perhaps you're posting to the wrong thread, or from some of your remarks perhaps the wrong game forum...


  2. #22
    Division Agent Freelancer852's Avatar
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    At some point in your post I read something about a fairly heavy weight and recoil.

    Just pointing out that the heavier a rifle is, the less the felt recoil in almost all cases. Should be obvious why.
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  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Freelancer852 View Post
    At some point in your post I read something about a fairly heavy weight and recoil. Just pointing out that the heavier a rifle is, the less the felt recoil in almost all cases. Should be obvious why.
    Of course, and some of the light skeleton frame sniper rifles of same caliber should, recoil more then their heavier counterparts -- just as some of the heavier, and longer barrel rifles should be more difficult to steady; especially so from the ridiculous shooting postures the player models can assume. But for GR:O sniping there is no recoil that isn't a virtually instant recovery to automatic perfect zero, no sway, no setup time; the sniper rifles are all magical: massless, infinitely stable, laser cannons... Even adding just any one metric of realistic rifle handling would be a substantial improvement...

    Last edited by hoak; 04-20-2012 at 12:15 PM.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by hoak View Post
    Do you think puppies are cuter then kitties? Are you suggesting that nukes be added to the game now?
    Depends on the puppy and depends on the kitten, and yes, they should! :d (Yes. I'm joking)

    Why because? Creating and answering your own premise that has nothing to do with the OT because? You can't stay on topic, or even make the effort to read and understand what you're replying to...
    In your original post, you said "'the higher the damage the less skill the weapon takes; the less accurate a weapon is, the less the skill it allows"
    As I said multiple times, sniper rifles. Semi-automatic sniper rifles shoot even faster. Now, the cover is over-powered when peaking very quickly and shooting, yes I know that, but it's easily counted by opponents.

    GR:O's OP semi-automatic sniper rifles are capable of easily being balanced even with applying more realism if that's your desire. GR:O's sniper rifles are OP because they're simplistic and have no handling metrics. No one in the real world could wield a 16+ pound sniper rifle that kicks like a mule, semi-auto or otherwise the way they're handled in GR:O (per the OT post ya know); it's physically impossible to crouch in cover in any posture even remotely resembling those in the game, snap heavy long rifle to aim, compensate your range to target, hold your breath, steady your aim, fire a shot, and move back to cover in under a second.
    Yes it's physically impossible, it's the same with no fatigue level for sprinting. I expect something will be done to fix both of those in the future, until then, just use it or learn to counter.

    In the real world and many more realistic games: scope bob, breath hold, setup time, and ranging your target are a part of long range shooting which does very nicely at balancing sniper weapons weapons in these games.
    I don't know what scope bob is, but if they added that, than a lot more recon-snipers would be camping because of the time it would take to find a good location, to setup, to get the kill, ect. Now, I'm not saying either of these are a bad thing, but people will always find something to complain about. I'll give you an example.
    Another beta I'm in, also features third person view. The developers move the camera angle. Nobody liked it, but we adapted. Several people quit because of this fact and said they would not play the game unless they changed the angle back. They gave it back, an option for off center and center. The people who quit, didn't come back yet. Why? Because they didn't like where the character was in position to the camera. The developers moved the character slightly, the people still didn't come back. They didn't like how the character was holding the gun.

    Similarly, in the real world and many more realistic games: a light machine or SAW gunner could suppress a sniper making it completely impossible for the sniper to raise his head and no less peek and fire for the duration of suppression.... In GR:O a Sniper can snap out of cover under a hail of the most accurate fire the the game's LMGs offer (which is absurdly inaccurate btw) from the supported position, not even take any damage, and shoot the LMG gunner, be back in cover before anyone saw it happen and do this over and over consistently -- I know barbecue I've done it, and been on the receiving end...This is not only absurdly unrealistic, it's bad game design, because an LMG that's less accurate and does less time/damage then pistol is not only absurd, counter to all realism game canon, it makes the weapon's 'specialization' fairly useless...
    Several things... "I know barbecue I've done it"....I'll keep my comments to myself on that one... I've tried to do the hole snap shot thing against several people, you know what happens to me? I get shot. So, when someone is doing it to you and you can't shoot them? Someone is lagging or something. Oh and have you ever played that attack and defend map (Not oil rig, the other one), and been a sniper who was attacking? You may have sat on the far bridge to snipe people. I've been out-sniped by an LMG sitting there, while I was in the back of C. Only happened once, but still happened.


    Obviously you don't 'know', but take a look at some of the fire-maneuver and cover fire tactics that get used in other games, and that more coordinated squads and fire-teams will try and use in GR:O like, bounding, RTFA or 'Ready Team Fire Assist' as the U.S. Marines brand the tactical fire-team doctrine. While I agree GR:O's objective design is as simplistic as it gets, that doesn't mean you have to approach it simplistically.
    This is not RTFA, not will it be extremely like it (might be some stuff like it, but hopefully not). So how would you approach "attack & defend" complexly?

    And you know this how? Then what's your explanation for that the server "Activity" level monitor going from "High" and green at the start of the beta, all the way down to "Low" yellow and now even consistently red in the match-making dialog... How do you account for the three to five players I see leave literally every game in explicitly declared frustration with aspects of the games design discussed in the OT post?
    Now I think you're the one not reading the posts...
    Quote Originally Posted by Tecness
    I've been in several beta's with friends, and some of those betas, I never went on the forums or did anything involving the community, besides playing the game, giving the developers more statistics, helping my friend take videos of bugs, ect..
    . Also, I've been here since the beginning of phase 2, and the activity level always been the same for me. Maybe client side activity levels?

    Then why are so many leaving? And the OT, have you read it, right? Is not about the people that stay, it's about declared reasons people have left the game... Perhaps you're posting to the wrong thread, or from some of your remarks perhaps the wrong game forum...
    Well, I am not leaving, so I have no idea as to why they are leaving. I did not seem them walking out the door as I came through it, so I could not ask them. Do you know the exact reason as to why people are leaving? Not unless they completely tell you...and on the internet, I don't think they are going to be 100% completely honest.


    Oh and to your example of boxers. Let's say, a lightweight boxer is the equal to SMG's and shotguns. Medium weight is assault rifles and LMG's. Heavy weight is the sniper rifle. (This is in terms of long range). If you pit the heavy weight fighter against the lightweight fighter.......well, I'm putting my bet on the heavyweight fighter. For each scenario, the weapons change what fighter they are. If it was all purpose weaponry, the assault rifle would be a heavyweight, along with the LMG. Medium weight would the shotgun and lightweight would be the sniper rifle and SMG (In my opinion of course). If you pit the sniper against the assault rifle, in long ranges, the sniper rifle will win. In anything but long ranges, if the assault has a very good chance to kill or wound the sniper. (This is just an estimation on average-above average player skill).

    One more thing, enough will the roll eyes thing. It makes me think you're ****y and overly confident. You know who else fit those two characteristics? I'll give you a hint, he didn't like Jewish people and controlled Germany there for a while.
    Last edited by Tecness0; 04-20-2012 at 10:54 PM.
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  5. #25
    Division Agent Freelancer852's Avatar
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    Bounding/RTFA with a coordinated team using voice chat is a deadly strategy in ANY team shooter. Heck, you can use it to advance, to retreat, or to relocate all while keeping the enemy pinned down.

    I do it in BF3 with a few friends and it works wonders. With the cover system in GRO it would work even better.

    If you play with people enough and explain some real-life tactics to them and make use of them effectively, it's very easy to approach the simplistic objective based play while using complex tactics and maneuvers. It all comes back to a coordinated team and communication. On this, I agree with hoak.
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  6. #26
    Everyone looks like a bunch of lawyers quoting each other's phrases and then destroying them
    I don't mean to criticize tho because this is actually intelligent debate so I wanted to put in my opinion:
    I think sniper rifles should do the damage they do (don't change it I mean), the problem is the cover system. I honestly have no idea how they might fix the fact that you can watch a doorway from behind cover (completely undetectable to people without oracle)as a sniper and when someone shows up in it you right click to snap out and shoot them because you knew where your sight would end up. It would kind of suck if they had to make sniper rifles do so much less damage that it doesn't make sense (like Battlefield Heroes). Maybe add to the handling stat of guns 1)how quickly you snap out of cover(that's not what it already is, is it?). If you have a SMG you should be able to whip around corners and pound people at close range, sure, but if you have a sniper rifle, that's a big long gun and it should take a moment to look around the wall. Another example of that: I once saw an airsoft fight in which a guy with a pistol quickly leaned around a wall in a CQB arena and shot someone. No way he could have done that so quickly with a big sniper rifle.
    Other handling idea: make it control how far out of cover you lean. somebody with a pistol could stay really tight to the cover so you only see some of them, but someone with a huge sniper rifle has to lean out a bit more so people without sniper rifles can at least shoot them enough to mess up their aim. I like idea 1 better tho. that's assuming that handling is how quickly you ready a gun after sprinting.
    Last edited by ChrisImmortal1; 04-21-2012 at 01:53 AM. Reason: found a stupid sentence

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Tecness0 View Post
    One more thing, enough will the roll eyes thing. It makes me think you're ****y and overly confident. You know who else fit those two characteristics? I'll give you a hint, he didn't like Jewish people and controlled Germany there for a while.
    So, unable to stay on topic or discuss anything in the OT post reasonably you've decided to take the ultimate voyage to the bottom of the barrel and play all the Hitler racism, nationalism, and anti-Semitism card -- because I used a smiley you don't like... Five Mister Yucks for you Fella...



    Quote Originally Posted by Freelancer852 View Post
    Bounding/RTFA with a coordinated team using voice chat is a deadly strategy in ANY team shooter. Heck, you can use it to advance, to retreat, or to relocate all while keeping the enemy pinned down
    Yup, and it adds a lot of depth and fun coordinating a team this way. Even better is that a team of relatively unskilled Players using just bare-bones RTFA tactics working as a team, can easily outperform vastly more skilled Players that play as individuals -- we've demonstrated this consistently in VBS·2 training scenarios.

    Quote Originally Posted by Freelancer852 View Post
    It all comes back to a coordinated team and communication. On this, I agree with hoak.
    Yes and to that end, because a lot of Players don't want to, or can't use VOIP in the game for a slew of reasons from don't want to wake the baby, to don't have the bandwidth -- I think a BF2 like CCC menu would be a god send to the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisImmortal1 View Post
    I think sniper rifles should do the damage they do (don't change it I mean), the problem is the cover system. I honestly have no idea how they might fix the fact that you can watch a doorway from behind cover (completely undetectable to people without oracle) as a sniper and when someone shows up in it you right click to snap out and shoot them because you knew where your sight would end up. It would kind of suck if they had to make sniper rifles do so much less damage that it doesn't make sense (like Battlefield Heroes). Maybe add to the handling stat of guns 1)how quickly you snap out of cover(that's not what it already is, is it?). If you have a SMG you should be able to whip around corners and pound people at close range, sure, but if you have a sniper rifle, that's a big long gun and it should take a moment to look around the wall.
    I agree, and there's also the 'snap shooting' feature/exploit (don't know which it is) that I won't document 'how-to' here because the fewer people that actually know how to do it and make it work, the better...

    Also regarding your comments about pistol, this would be a great way to make handguns more useful in the game, rather then making them more powerful then other weapons as is currently the case; i.e. with handguns you could use cover more effectively as you suggest moving in and out more quickly -- but also expose yourself less; especially so as we're given what appears to be a close aim perspective that seems more like the CAR Shooting System used in Splinter Cell Conviction, sans the diagonal perspective, or at least that would explain why handguns were held so close in GR:O...

    Even though my OT post was rather hastily written, I still stand by all the points as they remain the arcation and reasons given by many Players giving up in frustration and disgust in many games I play in, and summarize a large number of repeat complaint posts here and in the General forum.

    Last edited by hoak; 04-25-2012 at 04:21 AM.

  8. #28
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    As for the snap-shooting, I'd like to see a weapon's handling stat still play a role in readying that weapon even while in cover. Some of what is mentioned in many of the above posts is already in the game, it just feels like there are some gaps and oversights that need to be addressed to make the game water-tight.
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  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by hoak View Post
    So, unable to stay on topic or discuss anything in the OT post reasonably you've decided to take the ultimate voyage to the bottom of the barrel and play all the Hitler racism, nationalism, and anti-Semitism card -- because I used a smiley you don't like... Five Mister Yucks for you Fella...

    It's at the bottom of my post for a reason.
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    If I see you first, you die.
    If you see me first, you die.
    Bottom line, you die.

  10. #30
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    All valid points by OP, only thing i'd add into this are the Line Of Sight issues

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