Tactical Disengagement and re-entering the Stealth loop | Forums

[shobhit7777777]

It is apparent and obvious that once you are detected or "Go loud" the stealth gameplay is effectively over and it devolves into the 'Firefight' segment of the gameplay loop. I would like to know if there is an option for a tactical retreat so that you can fall back, regroup and then use stealth to get back into the fight.
For a tactical shooter this is extremely important. The current system where once everything is loud it stays that way is kinda annoying and extremely inflexible. Splinter Cell Conviction nailed this action-stealth gameplay loop, as did Crysis and DX:HR.
Why shouldn't we be given the option of falling back and recloaking to avoid further gunfights and then sneak back in...the enemy will be in a state of heightened awareness and will search for the Ghosts. This adds another layer to the game. It also allows for flexible planning.

I can only hope that there is such an option...where your team mates peel back from the fight and regroup at a WP some distance from the map....allowing you to "Go dark" once again and re-infiltrate. Stealth and surprise are invaluable tools for a small SOF squad and SEALs have perfected the this tactic since their Vietnam days...why not have it as an ingame tool as well? It would be an excellent addition.

[xhostileman]

The thing is, this isnt splinter cell. There is a reason for separate games like SC,RB,GR

They all bring something different. To me this is fine if once detected you have to throw stealth out the window and just gun them down.

I dont think if you get caught you'll be ok lets just run backwards for a little bit and try this again, i think the guards would be more on guard and be waiting for you this time.

For ghost these are elite special forces who are able to win firefights. Sam Fisher is one man so its viable for him to retreat and try again.

I dunno this is just my opinion. I like it if you get caught you have to go guns blazing. Just dont get caught then!!

Also if this was 4 player co-op. Do you think all your friends would want to retreat instead of gunning to the end?

[shobhit7777777]

The thing is, this isnt splinter cell. There is a reason for separate games like SC,RB,GR

They all bring something different. To me this is fine if once detected you have to throw stealth out the window and just gun them down.

I dont think if you get caught you'll be ok lets just run backwards for a little bit and try this again, i think the guards would be more on guard and be waiting for you this time.

For ghost these are elite special forces who are able to win firefights. Sam Fisher is one man so its viable for him to retreat and try again.

I dunno this is just my opinion. I like it if you get caught you have to go guns blazing. Just dont get caught then!!

Also if this was 4 player co-op. Do you think all your friends would want to retreat instead of gunning to the end?

Wow.

1. Splinter Cell Conviction and GRFS share the same gameplay root. So in that sense it is totally valid for FS to adopt SCC mechanics

2. Please read my post again...I am talking about a tactical retreat...not a simple "run backwards".

3. It is an authentic SF tactic and an EXTREMELY valuable one. You don't "just gun them down"!!!. That is pure fantasy FPS BS. SF don't just engage into long *** firefights..they put enough fire down to pin the enemy down and then fall back...its their SURVIVAL STRATEGY. They don't have enough men or firepower to prolong a gunfight. Seriously... research this.

4. If my Coop buddies are refusing to fall back, regroup and hit the enemy from another direction...then I'd be better off without them. Good riddance to idiotic teammates....also note to self: Don't play Coop with you

Please google the term 'Tactical Retreat' or 'Counter-Ambush Drill'...it is the very basic fire & maneuver drill taught to combat troops.

Why is this important to me? Well it offers another tactical layer...which GRFS could definitely use...you may like to engage people...while some would like to fall back, ambush the enemy and generally play it Guerrilla style. Freedom in tactical approach is the aim...something which is crucial to a squad based tac-shooter. i.e. GRFS



I think Ubi has been far too efficient at selling this "Uber-SF-Super-Soldier-Elite-Commando-Phantom-Ghost-Warrior" Bull-Sh1t. The quoted post is proof of it.

[Kaiskune]

your being a bit harsh shobhit, he is putting foward a good point questioning how disengaging would work.

when the s**t hits the fan a high teir team would in theory either fight their way through it and complete their objective (improvise) or run away and try again using a different method... something that can take days to plan and execute. in that time the target would know you are onto them and would do whatever they can to stay alive including taking flight themselves.

"going dark" is not so simple as to peggin' it back over the hill and wait until they go back to patrolling like nothing ever happened. once the patrol knows your there shouldn't you really kill them to make sure they cannot get the word out?

I understand what you mean but i don't know how it'd be implemented into a game where your operating as a team not just a single over the top american

[xhostileman]

Sorry if i offended you shobhit7777777 . That was not my intent. Im basing this on my playing experience from SC GR and RB. Those are the only shooters i really play and enjoy and i put a lot of time into. Im not one of those cod fanboys since i hate the run and gun style. I loved all SC, since i love stealth games. IN SC Con i never run and gun. If i get in trouble i run and retreat to let the enemies calm down before i re engage.

The thing im saying is. For me i feel the Ghosts operate a bit differently. Yes they go in stealth and mark guys and take them out quietly. But im assuming when special forces (im no military guy) get their cover blown, they scrap the mission or fight there way out. Again these guys are ghosts, spec forces. They have more firepower than Sam fisher thus not needing to disengage.

Again this is my opinion so dont get upset.

4 ghosts and 1 man. There is a difference in options to when your cover gets blown.

[crazykilla075]

See what I do for any tactical shooter it just shooter or stealth shooter games. What I do is go stealth as much as possible as far as I can go through mission. Stealth is what I'd rather do. But when my cover gets blown I kill everyone in my way. No matter what. I'm not gonna retreat unless it's SCC or another game where's it's just me. Squad games I'll push rite through them and move on.

[Esc Art1st]

This is an excellent question. I used to play the rogue class back in my World of Warcraft days.
If you were in combat mode, the only way to regain stealth was to remove yourself from combat for
5 seconds. After that time you could go stealth(cloaked). This would be an excellent escape and evade
tactic. Actually would make a good a achievement for 360 owners(UBI hint, hint, LoL). Ambush some hostiles than
drop smoke/flash than drop back into camo mode and slip away.
I need to patent this tactic. LoL. If any one ever played the versus mode
during the splinter cell pandora/chaos theory days will remember the
ninja sticky cams. A very effective tactic.

[Elcuco1227]

This is a good question of having the option of grouping and trying a different approach but I have seen with Campos specifically saying that the early missions are "linear", and not until you get the Russian mission[s] that you have more flexibilty of approach. Though yes I would like to see this option, but doubt you can go back. My guess there will be checkpoints and there is no going back. And if your teammates die, gameover. Even though I doubt a sniper bullet to a head would give an option of rolling around the ground or crawling to a teammate.

[Hortey]

It all depends if the enemy will LET you retreat. They are particularly aggressive in this game and might just keep pushing at you and flanking you until you die as any good soldier would do in that situation.

The worst thing you can do against a formidable opponent is let him get his bearings once he is frenzied, or turn you back on him.

[shobhit7777777]

your being a bit harsh shobhit, he is putting foward a good point questioning how disengaging would work.

when the s**t hits the fan a high teir team would in theory either fight their way through it and complete their objective (improvise) or run away and try again using a different method... something that can take days to plan and execute. in that time the target would know you are onto them and would do whatever they can to stay alive including taking flight themselves.

"going dark" is not so simple as to peggin' it back over the hill and wait until they go back to patrolling like nothing ever happened. once the patrol knows your there shouldn't you really kill them to make sure they cannot get the word out?

I understand what you mean but i don't know how it'd be implemented into a game where your operating as a team not just a single over the top american

I don't think you understood...I'm not talking about a complete withdrawal and then a regroup...I'm talking about falling back 200-300 meters...cloaking back up...setting up claymores and then maneuvering around the OPFOR to ambush them again. Stealth is the best and most effective weapon in the Ghost's arsenal...plus fighting off 100 NPCs is not my idea of tactical fun. I like the freedom of planning hit and run tactics.

As for the realistic factor...it is SOP for a small unit to disengage a much larger force and then use surprise, shock and confusion to melt back into the shadows. This was a tried and true tactic (not strategy BTW) employed by SOF like the SEALs and was perfected as part of counter-ambush drills. It is highly unrealistic and kinda stupid if the Ghosts are unable to disengage and the gameplay loop devolves into a TPS.

It is extremely limiting not only from a realism POV but from a gameplay POV to NOT be able to fall back and stealth up again..a waste of the stealth mechanics IMO. Once a firefight is on...a skilled player should be able to fallback and attack the enemy from another direction using the Ghost's stealth and technological advantages.

How would it work? Excellent question....and one I should've answered in the OP. Sorry.

On giving the "Disengage" command...the player becomes the pivot point. the squad members closest to the player forms up on the player's position and lays down suppressive fire...done by engaging every AI target within a specific cone. During this phase the AI is more susceptible to suppression to facilitate a fallback and make it more believable. The remaining two peel back and then take suppressive positions to cover the first guy. The Ghosts then cloak up..do not fire and fall back 50-100 meters to a pre-designated regroup zone where they take up ambush positions (the same way the AI has been programmed to take up positions). The Enemy AI will also re-group and send out Hunter-Killer teams towards the Ghosts. The player can take them out or try to avoide them. The enemy base will now be a bustling center of activity with doubled security and heavier troops.

@xhostileman

No you didn't offend me. I was just incredulous. If I sounded angry or offended or harsh..I apologize..it's just that I did not expect such a post.

For me Ghosts rely on stealth and agility to survive against larger foes...like real life SOF. A lightly armed squad of four simply cannot survive a prolonged firefight for more than a few hours..no matter how many gadgets they may have or how well trained they are. It is a logistical impossibility. They will run out of ammo, will be surrounded and then annihilated.

I am not saying that they should simply fall back at the sound of the first shot going off...on the contrary the firefight segment is crucial as they need to inflict as many casualties and then break off..Neither am I saying that it should be forced,...but should be available as an option to allow the player to get back into the stealth loop once again.

Our opinions are of no consequence when we are talking about Small unit SOF tactics. Sure they often have to fight their way out and I'm not trying to change that...all I'm saying is that by forcing an engagement on the player and not allowing us to break off and re-engage on our terms is tactically limiting and wastes the stealth gameplay. Wouldn't you like the ability to slip back into stealth and then ambush the enemy or plan another route to the objective? it is a more flexible system.

@Hortey

A valid observation..thats where the cloak comes in and you can tune the AI behavior to behave differently when the disengage command is given they do not pursue very aggressively...I know its a cheat but it has to be done to simulate supression....and aren't games based around tricking the player?
The Cloak allows a large buffer zone. Allowing us to slip back into stealth mode.

@Escart1st

Smoke and Flash feels like a great idea to support a disengagement maneuver.


@ALL

I am not trying to force a disengagement...you can still have the option of pushing through...Its a game afterall..and I too would like to punch through the enemy...but I would like the option of slipping back into stealth and trying out a new tactic or approach, plus it adds authenticity to the game.