05-19-2012, 10:24 AM
"No 5th, it could. If anything...he was back in the game. Look at it this way. Batman became who he was because of the death of his family. Yes, he was only 8 and something most likely snapped that night and he'd never be a child again. He was resolved to hunting down EVERY criminal (who, in his mind, he views as the killer of his parents). But despite that -- he doesn't murder people. He doesn't in order to keep from being like the person he despises most. This is, arguably, a huge downside. He can and never will be able to bring himself to kill Joker despite the terrilbe things he's done."
After Sarah died,Sam sorta lost it. He basically quit during the cutscene before the jail mission but within that same mission, he was brought back in...CLEARLY still wanting to fight for freedom and take down the "bad guys". That time he had to become one. which was easy for him because of what had happened."
I don't understand where you're going with the Batman comparison. Sam had been a soldier for over twenty years and was already working for Third Echelon when Sarah died while Bruce Wayne was just a kid. Sarah was killed by a drunk driver while Bruce's parents were murdered by a mugger. Sam took the mission because he had nothing left to lose and Lambert convinced him to (for various reasons) while Bruce became Batman under his own volition and to fulfill his own personal fantasy. Sam took the mission when he was still grieving his daughter's death while Bruce became Batman years after his parents died. And Sam has killed people while Batman generally doesn't.
"At the end of the day though, Sam would not kill his best friend just for the sake of the mission. This is clearly seen in Chaos Theory on Seoul because to earn a 100% you have to complete every side objective right? So the pilots of the downed plane can or can't be saved but since I believe that 100% means 100% the way Sam did/would do things...he saves them. More over...listen to his dialogue. Lambert is telling him it could screw the mission up and that he wouldnt earn a medal for saving them. "Medals don't help me sleep at night." Those UNNAMED, practically faceless, and definitely anonymous pilots to Sam would have kept him up at night had he not saved them. You honestly think he would ever live with himself after killing his friend? No, he would've risked the mission by saving Lambert and killing the terrorists (perhaps even Conviction style in order to reach Emile) but he would NOT have killed Lambert. So yes. Still hung up on it. Also...how do we know they planned Lambert's death at the hands of fisher? Source?"
You say Sam wouldn't kill his best friend but he did kill a friend before (not his best, but still) and in Double Agent he didn't even actually kill Lambert. After Jamie leaves the room Lambert tells Sam to complete the mission and Sam tells him to hang on. Seoul on Chaos Theory isn't proof that Sam wouldn't shoot Lambert because you don't have to save those pilots and the event hasn't been made canon. Lambert's death has. If you played Conviction you'd know that Sam is still hung up about killing Lambert so obviously it affected him. How do I know they planned Lambert's death at the hands of Fisher? Work on Conviction began after Chaos Theory (2005) and Conviction was about Sam being a fugitive. But there would have to be a reason for him to be a fugitive and that reason was committing terrorist acts in Double Agent because Conviction was the sequel to it. But since Lambert was his handler he would obviously clear Sam's name. So Lambert would have had to die for that story to work. Also, there's a flashback mission in Essentials (sequel to Double Agent) where Sam is working for the JBA. The objective of that mission is to kill Lambert and not killing him results in mission failure. Actually, the whole plot of Essentials is about Sam killing Lambert and being hunted for terrorist acts he committed while working undercoer, so Old Conviction would have been a sequel to that.
"I didn't say necessarily happy again but his "family" (Lambert, Redding, Grim) would be there for him. After Lambert talked him into doing the DA thing, Sam was back in the game. They could have easily gotten Sam's name cleared after proving that he was a spy within the terrorist agency. It's a government op that the president would know about for god's sake. After Sarah's death and after being brought back in by Lambert, Sam would have stayed since the mission was a success. If it hadn't been a smooth op, then maybe Sam would have quit after realizing his time was over for working with 3E. But it went fine (even if you save Lambert). Sam would have no reason for backing out again. The fact that he was so cool and collected andstillable to make jokes ("Moose" ... "It's Moss!") show that Sam would not have gone into rage-mode SCC style and killed everyone (especially if his daughter was alive and he found that out. He'd be pissed for sure but probably MORE happy that shes alive and second...he wouldnt just kill everyone.I know it's silly to argue over the lambert thing because what's done is done but it still doesnt make sense. And just becausehe did ONE line in SCC (okay maybe a few) doesn't mean he wasn't tired of it. They may have just been like "read these three lines, they help explain something important and it's money" and I didn't even say he was for sure. I was saying that if that was the case...they didn't have to kill him off."
You misled me when you said Sam would be celebratory and have a "Yes! I'm back!" attitude. I didn't say they couldn't prove Sam was working for the NSA if Lambert lived. Obviously they could. But it would have been nearly impossible if Lambert died because Sam's wasn't officially working for 3E (well, he wasn't before either but this is much more un-official). You don't know that Sam would have stayed if Lambert didn't die. We know he took the mission in the first place because he was going through a tough time and Lambert was trying to help him. Maybe he might have left after that, maybe he might have stayed. You don't know and it doesn't matter because Lambert's death was planned. Saying that Sam was alright because he was cool and collected making jokes is a bit hollow... Sam has always been cool and collected during missions and he makes jokes because he's afraid (and that's canon). Saying Sam wouldn't have gone rage-mode SCC style is also hollow if you play Double Agent old-gen. Also, Lambert saying "I'm too old for this." is funny considering he's younger than Sam. The Lambert thing totally makes sense in context - Sam is working undercover in a domestic terror organization. His handler has been caught inside the compound and the terrorist leader hands Sam a gun and asks him to kill him. The terrorist leader leaves and has another terrorist (as well as surveillance cameras) supervise Sam. Now, what does Sam do in this situation? Shoot Lambert and maintain his cover so that he can disarm the bomb? Or shoot Jamie and alert the entire compound to his true intentions, so that they can come in through the door and kill him and Lambert both, then since he's dead they can detonate the bomb without intervention and nuke the entire city? Speculating that Lambert died because Jordan was tired of voicing him doesn't accomplish anything and is completely unfounded.