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  1. #1
    Senior Member Jazz117Volkov's Avatar
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    Tutorials always wreck the 1st mission!

    I know that people need to know how to play, and I know it's a lot to expect for some people to read the instruction manual and I also know that it's extremely unlikely that everyone who's been gaming for more then three years will be put on priority for this one, but seriously, tutorial levels are a major drag. It sucked in Pandora Tomorrow, it sucked in R6 Vegas and it still sucks in Conviction.

    Please hear me... anyone, I don't really care who, but just listen, tutorials should be tutorials. They should not intrude onto the main portion of the game and weaken the introduction for the sake of someone wanting to pick up blast their way though the first half hour with little/no understanding of what they're doing. And let's not forget what it does to replay value... gives me the shivers just think'n 'bout it.

    Gears of War had a great idea. The 1st time you get control of Marcus, Dom asks you a very simple question. (paraphrasing) "Do you want to learn how to play, or do you know how to play?" To which the player can answer. "Yes," or "No." Depending on what you do changes whether you get bombarded with tips on how/what to do. Makes replaying the game a joy, because you can just dive right in and enjoy the game. And hell, the tutorial section of Gears2 was so funny it was worth picking the 2nd time anyway... 3rd time, ah, anyway.

    Remember the good old days when the start of the game was actually the hardest part. You had nothing, no weapons/ammo armor--looking at you Doom3. These 'realistic' types obviously can't be made exactly like that, but rewind five years and you see many games with fantastic introductions which are not spoiled with. "Now press this to do that." segments. Actually, Uncharted and COD suffer from moments like this throughout the entire experience. Countless times in COD you're instructed to do something specific to either drive a car or climb a cliff but you never need it again. I believe SolidSage coined the notion, "It's like pressing the continue button," Unbelievably meh.

    Splinter Cell SAR solved this issue by dedicating an entire irrelevant mission to teaching the player the ropes. Great idea because next time through you didn't need to do it. Chaos Theory had the superbly presented training videos with Sam Fisher instructing you on the dos/don'ts, which now that I think of it were absent from the PS3 re-release... I have never seen something as lame as the training vids from the PS3 Chaos Theory HD... nasty. And heck, even the Shanghaied Double Agent had dedicated training maps.

    I'm not calling for a return of the days when you actually needed to discover how to play, even though that was cool, but I'd like part where you find out what the buttons do to be in a very separate area to where we learn what the 1st objective is.
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  2. #2
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    I liked the training mission in SC1. It felt like I was in the army. The background noise really added to that.
    Ubisoft, please prove me wrong.
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  3. #3
    ^ As did I. Being in T'Bilisi in general was incredible and is what really started it all. I also agree that tutorial missions need to be optional and non-essential.
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  4. #4
    Senior Member sameer_monier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jazz_117 View Post

    I'm not calling for a return of the days when you actually needed to discover how to play, even though that was cool, but I'd like part where you find out what the buttons do to be in a very separate area to where we learn what the 1st objective is.
    oh GOD, I remember playing Resident Evil 1, and not to knowing which do what, but one of the good things that the first room was big and with no action, so I can try every single button and figure it out, LOL good days, but sometimes really bad, I remember playing on the NES Ninja Zen, and I literally didn't know what to do, no matter how long I tried, I could never figure it out, but still having on knowledge and then learning everything by yourself kinda feel nice

    Now on topic: I think tutorials are important nowadays, first cause new players keep playing new game, so unlike the old fans they won't be familiar, and 2nd some mechanics gets complicated, yet again, I think I will settle for DA Next Gen Style, a level that is not part of the game, but casual players either jump to the SP or the MP, that's why the devs ended up putting the tutorial in the 1st level

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    Senior Member Dieinthedark's Avatar
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    The thing me and sameer_monier discussed in Modern Stealth is that I don't really have a problem with tutorials, but in Conviction I really felt like here's the tutorial, and here it is again, and again and again and again until the game ended. I drew my point to the videos in SAR where the level designer (i don't remember his name) was talking about how one level you need to learn how to climb a pipe, and the next level you need to climb a pipe again but there's a guard nearby kinda looking at you and by the end of the game you need to climb a pipe that's got searchlights fixed on it with dudes with AKs in guard towers watching. Basically just describing pushing what you do each level. And that was a problem for me in Conviction was that it felt like I was being exposed to the same situation over and over again with the same enemies just a different cosmetic appearance. It didn't feel like I was actually progressing, the game didn't teach me anything as I made it through, just that B, LB and Y = WIN!

    At least that's how I feel...anybody kinda see what I mean?

    Honestly, I don't notice it much in SCC if I just pop the game in and mess around but if I'm going through the previous games, namely SAR as I've played that a bit recently, SCC just seems to fall in terms of teaching us how to be the awesome Sam Fisher.

    (off topic-any consensus on what font size looks best? Normally I'm posting in 2, this is 3...hate the new forums ^insert smilely smashing PC)

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  6. #6
    Senior Member coltcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sameer_monier View Post
    Now on topic: I think tutorials are important nowadays, first cause new players keep playing new game, so unlike the old fans they won't be familiar, and 2nd some mechanics gets complicated, yet again, I think I will settle for DA Next Gen Style, a level that is not part of the game, but casual players either jump to the SP or the MP, that's why the devs ended up putting the tutorial in the 1st level
    IMO thats not the problem, If there is a tutorial and a player jump over it and found out hes doing badly in real mission, anyone with a right mind will figure if he wants to real play the game he needs to check that tutorial up or at least look up control setting. I can still remember doing that in CT becuz of an accidentally throat cut to the very first NPC I encountered.
    if the game can be accomplish without teaching you how to play than it wont needs a tutorial. (have just played MW3, who needs tutorial?)

    if a player really needs to be spoonfeed, a unskipable tutorial before entering the SP will be good for them and I can accept that. we got those in the old days.

    back to SCC tutorial.
    whats with SCC is that a painful tutorial being forced into the already bad written story mode with launghable dialogues, stupid projecting that points out the painfully obvious, unskipable 2~3 min flashback cutscene just to let you know if you are in the dark ppl cant sees you (Who dosent knows that????), finally some crazy invisible walls trys to make sure to know what key is for what before lets you move on AND still want to be taken seriously as it's a part of the Story and Sam's life. it's like he got amnesia and only way to free his memory is a good old fashion transformer heckin blown black out.
    We do have more than 100 keys on keyboard, the melee/action key design is a failure.

    ......and just because people runs fast, it doesn't mean they want to jump over obstacles and kick down a door.
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  7. #7
    Senior Member sameer_monier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by coltcat View Post
    IMO thats not the problem, If there is a tutorial and a player jump over it and found out hes doing badly in real mission, anyone with a right mind will figure if he wants to real play the game he needs to check that tutorial up or at least look up control setting. I can still remember doing that in CT becuz of an accidentally throat cut to the very first NPC I encountered.
    if the game can be accomplish without teaching you how to play than it wont needs a tutorial. (have just played MW3, who needs tutorial?)

    if a player really needs to be spoonfeed, a unskipable tutorial before entering the SP will be good for them and I can accept that. we got those in the old days.

    back to SCC tutorial.
    whats with SCC is that a painful tutorial being forced into the already bad written story mode with launghable dialogues, stupid projecting that points out the painfully obvious, unskipable 2~3 min flashback cutscene just to let you know if you are in the dark ppl cant sees you (Who dosent knows that????), finally some crazy invisible walls trys to make sure to know what key is for what before lets you move on AND still want to be taken seriously as it's a part of the Story and Sam's life. it's like he got amnesia and only way to free his memory is a good old fashion transformer heckin blown black out.
    That's the thing "right mind", why do you think there is always a higher difficulty than hard that that don't show unless you finish the game ?!, it's because people may jump into it thinking they are bada$$, get their a$$es kicked, and throw away the game calling it hard or bad instead of getting used first on the controls and understand how things work, not everyone got patience which is a very bad thing nowadays, that's another reason why Hard is more like Normal nowadays

    An unskibale tutorial is just like SCC, and here is another thing, instead of making a tutorial level the developer feels like needing to immerse you in the game, hence the 1st level is the tutorial, it's painful, going throw the same scripted tutorial again and again and again in every game

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  8. #8
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    Splinter Cell SAR solved this issue by dedicating an entire irrelevant mission to teaching the player the ropes. Great idea because next time through you didn't need to do it. Chaos Theory had the superbly presented training videos with Sam Fisher instructing you on the dos/don'ts, which now that I think of it were absent from the PS3 re-release... I have never seen something as lame as the training vids from the PS3 Chaos Theory HD... nasty. And heck, even the Shanghaied Double Agent had dedicated training maps.
    Well yes and no. I played CT coop few months ago with my friends and It felt like playing alone the entire time. They were all playing sp, but not as good as I. I told them to watch training videos, but they didn't wanted. When they played coop for the first time, they relized that they can climb on pipes, grab enemy from ledge, do inverted neck brakes and even knock out the enemy. This part is skipped in CT sp and that's why most of the people don't like SC universe. They say that the game is slow and complicated, but they actually don't know how to play.

    Those who played Con learned from 1st mission that they have more efficient way of killing the enemies - M&E. That's also very bad, because new players thought that they seen everything they need to know in the 1st mission, but what they haven't seen is that you can climb on pipes, on walls...

    My point is that training in game such as SC is needed. Well not in COD, because everyone knows how to shoot the bad guy. I would love to see training in the 1st mision of the game. Devs can build it as in GW1, once you complete the basic parts, you can skip it.
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  9. #9
    Senior Member coltcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sameer_monier View Post
    not everyone got patience which is a very bad thing nowadays, that's another reason why Hard is more like Normal nowadays
    I dont know we've become endangered specie, seriously I dont even know any player that lazy. even my least gaming friend who play only one or two game a year will asking me how to play the game after I lend it to him and trys to setting his own contrals.
    Quote Originally Posted by sameer_monier View Post
    instead of making a tutorial level the developer feels like needing to immerse you in the game


    makes sense,I'm just afraid if a guy thinking self such a badazz, dont even bother giving the game just a little bit of seriousness and gets some training or getting use to the games control. well, being honestly I'm pretty sure the person dont gives a sht about immersing with story.
    and SCC dont even have some decent story to start with... (= =)

    I do like a total separate tutorial with no connection to the story and unskipable at the start. becuz otherwise we'll have a dragging first level.
    We do have more than 100 keys on keyboard, the melee/action key design is a failure.

    ......and just because people runs fast, it doesn't mean they want to jump over obstacles and kick down a door.
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  10. #10
    Senior Member sameer_monier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by coltcat View Post
    I dont know we've become endangered specie, seriously I dont even know any player that lazy. even my least gaming friend who play only one or two game a year will asking me how to play the game after I lend it to him and trys to setting his own contrals.makes sense,I'm just afraid if a guy thinking self such a badazz, dont even bother giving the game just a little bit of seriousness and gets some training or getting use to the games control. well, being honestly I'm pretty sure the person dont gives a sht about immersing with story.
    and SCC dont even have some decent story to start with... (= =)

    I do like a total separate tutorial with no connection to the story and unskipable at the start. becuz otherwise we'll have a dragging first level.
    Funny I got a friend who after convincing him to play SC, he got SC:Essential for PSP, I loaded one of his save files to find out he has killed everyone in the level LOL

    That's the glory of SP, no bada$$ will come to you SP claiming so haha

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