If Socialism works, then why....... | Forums

[mortoma]

Did my ex-wife call me from Venezuela to tell me her elderly next door neighbor stole all the money from her purse while she was busy cleaning her house?? She had just gotten to her little house on Margarita island and was cleaning up horrific flood damage effects from a recent Hurricane that caused heavy rains there. The old woman came knocking on the door, supposedly to say hi. My ex went outside to her patio while the old lady was still inside. Then later she noticed all of her cash was gone from her purse.

Well, Hugo Chavez is supposed to be the financial "nanny" for everybody and in that system of government, the state is supposed to take care of everybody. Well?!?!?!?

This just goes to show you the illusion that socialism is, and that it simply does not work. That lady was so poor and desperate because "the state" was not taking care of her. At least it appears that way. Stealing out of desperation is commonplace in that country and far worse now than it was in the pre-Chavez days. Well I guess somebody ( Chavez and friends ) is getting all of that oil money and it's just not being "redistributed" very well, huh?!?!? I bet Chavez lives like an oil sheik!!!

Seems to me if I lived there and felt I was getting adequate money from the state I would be disinclined to steal money from someone's purse. Why would I need to? Right??

[mortoma]

Did my ex-wife call me from Venezuela to tell me her elderly next door neighbor stole all the money from her purse while she was busy cleaning her house?? She had just gotten to her little house on Margarita island and was cleaning up horrific flood damage effects from a recent Hurricane that caused heavy rains there. The old woman came knocking on the door, supposedly to say hi. My ex went outside to her patio while the old lady was still inside. Then later she noticed all of her cash was gone from her purse.

Well, Hugo Chavez is supposed to be the financial "nanny" for everybody and in that system of government, the state is supposed to take care of everybody. Well?!?!?!?

This just goes to show you the illusion that socialism is, and that it simply does not work. That lady was so poor and desperate because "the state" was not taking care of her. At least it appears that way. Stealing out of desperation is commonplace in that country and far worse now than it was in the pre-Chavez days. Well I guess somebody ( Chavez and friends ) is getting all of that oil money and it's just not being "redistributed" very well, huh?!?!? I bet Chavez lives like an oil sheik!!!

Seems to me if I lived there and felt I was getting adequate money from the state I would be disinclined to steal money from someone's purse. Why would I need to? Right??

[x6BL_Brando]

One name - Bernard Madoff ring any bells?

B

[Lotharr]

Well, as far as I'm concerned you're making a bit of a wrong comparision. Look at socialism in Europe. If I would find a purse, I would send it back with the money.

Venezuela isn't exactly a rich country, even if it's (or was) benefiting from high oil revenues.

[Blutarski2004]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by x6BL_Brando:
One name - Bernard Madoff ring any bells?

B </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Madoff stole [or lost or blew] 50 billion dollars. Is he a crook? Yes. Does that constitute an argument against capitalism?

No way.

In fact, Madoff's crime is chump change compared to those of Hugo Chavez, who happily confiscates and steals entire industries.

[roybaty]

Chavez is an idiot, who likes to think he's a socialist. He's so far up his own *ss with illusions of grandeur, classic narcissist.

Greed and stupidity undermine ALL systems. Look at the current chaos in the global economy. Make stupid decisions and you get bad results; simple.

All systems and ideals have to be balanced with a healthy dose of pragmatism.

[x6BL_Brando]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Blutarski2004:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by x6BL_Brando:
One name - Bernard Madoff ring any bells?

B </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Madoff stole [or lost or blew] 50 billion dollars. Is he a crook? Yes. Does that constitute an argument against capitalism?

No way.

In fact, Madoff's crime is chump change compared to those of Hugo Chavez, who happily confiscates and steals entire industries. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

$50bn is chump change? What world do you live in? Madoff's crime is only the tip of an iceberg that the common people of the real world will founder on. I think you'll find Hugo Chavez' dictatorship will be 'chump change' after that has happened.

There are thieves in every society in the world and it's pretty clear that desperation doesn't always come into the equation. Nor does politics. I was endeavouring to make the point that this is a classic case of the pot calling the kettle black - and an unworthy attempt at demonising 'socialism'.

As Lotharr mentioned, we also have socialist governments in European countries which have worked well for years. We have petty thieves too.

All in all, I think the Madoff affair will cause far more people to consider a little theft - especially when his highly-paid lawyers start in to bend the rules.
If my house gets repossessed because my bank had money invested in US-based hedge funds, it won't be Hugo Chavez I'll be blaming.

B

[Whirlin_merlin]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mortoma:
Did my ex-wife call me from Venezuela to tell me her elderly next door neighbor stole all the money from her purse while she was busy cleaning her house?? She had just gotten to her little house on Margarita island and was cleaning up horrific flood damage effects from a recent Hurricane that caused heavy rains there. The old woman came knocking on the door, supposedly to say hi. My ex went outside to her patio while the old lady was still inside. Then later she noticed all of her cash was gone from her purse.

Well, Hugo Chavez is supposed to be the financial "nanny" for everybody and in that system of government, the state is supposed to take care of everybody. Well?!?!?!?

This just goes to show you the illusion that socialism is, and that it simply does not work. That lady was so poor and desperate because "the state" was not taking care of her. At least it appears that way. Stealing out of desperation is commonplace in that country and far worse now than it was in the pre-Chavez days. Well I guess somebody ( Chavez and friends ) is getting all of that oil money and it's just not being "redistributed" very well, huh?!?!? I bet Chavez lives like an oil sheik!!!

Seems to me if I lived there and felt I was getting adequate money from the state I would be disinclined to steal money from someone's purse. Why would I need to? Right?? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You don't think you might have added 1+1 and got to a tiny weanie bit more than 2 here.

[Urufu_Shinjiro]

Nice try dude.

[Blutarski2004]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by x6BL_Brando:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Blutarski2004:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by x6BL_Brando:
One name - Bernard Madoff ring any bells?

B </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Madoff stole [or lost or blew] 50 billion dollars. Is he a crook? Yes. Does that constitute an argument against capitalism?

No way.

In fact, Madoff's crime is chump change compared to those of Hugo Chavez, who happily confiscates and steals entire industries. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

$50bn is chump change? What world do you live in? Madoff's crime is only the tip of an iceberg that the common people of the real world will founder on. I think you'll find Hugo Chavez' dictatorship will be 'chump change' after that has happened. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


..... Here's the difference. Madoff got caught and he'll end up in jail or out of the game one way or another. Chavez and people like him [Robert Mugabe, for example, who delivered up his own special "communist socialist paradise" for the people of Zimbabwe] will stay in power for their entire lives, continuing to loot their nations and ultimately leaving their people destitute. Be honest here, Brando. The only sort of socialism that works at all exists in those primarily western nations where a sense of realistic capitalism succeeds in tempering its excesses. Watch what happens when socialism finally exhausts all the wealth accumulated by capitalist effort over preceding centuries. - the whole house of idealistic theoretical cards is going to collapse.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> There are thieves in every society in the world and it's pretty clear that desperation doesn't always come into the equation. Nor does politics. I was endeavouring to make the point that this is a classic case of the pot calling the kettle black - and an unworthy attempt at demonising 'socialism'. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

..... Thieves and crooks exist EVERYWHERE and have since the beginning of human civilization. As such, their behavior can hardly stand as an indictment of one particular economic environment or another. The problem with the more extreme kinds of socialism [the bright RED kind] IMO is that the opportunities for them to excel at their peculiar calling is tremendously enhanced.



<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> As Lotharr mentioned, we also have socialist governments in European countries which have worked well for years. We have petty thieves too. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

..... See my comments above. And don't kid yourself. You have your share of major league crooks as well.



<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> All in all, I think the Madoff affair will cause far more people to consider a little theft - especially when his highly-paid lawyers start in to bend the rules. If my house gets repossessed because my bank had money invested in US-based hedge funds, it won't be Hugo Chavez I'll be blaming. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

..... You're absolutely correct. Don't blame Chavez. Blame your bankers. No one held a gun to their heads to buy such financial instruments. On the other hand, if your stock falls in value because El Presidente Chavez has seized control of multi-billions of dollars worth of property and interests without any compensation whatsoever, THEN you can blame Chavez. How did you feel when Putin and his ex-KGB cronies just walked in and stole BP's multi-billion dollar investment in Siberian oil development - after BP was actually invited by the Russian to invest??????????

Sorry, my friend, but there's a BIG difference.