I actually got shot down by AI!! | Forums

[JtD]

Originally posted by Treetop64:
Sure, but any turn-fighter can only out-turn its foe so much up to a point. Keep that up and sooner or later it'll end up being slow and low. Easy meat by then.

Turn fighting is mostly defensive in nature.

If "the foe" follows through the turn it would be going to be him to end up low and slow, not the turn fighter. And the LaGG-3S35 certainly is not a pure turn fighter. At low altitudes (< 1500m), the overall performance is pretty much as good as that of a 109F-4.

[Treetop64]

Originally posted by JtD:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Treetop64:
Sure, but any turn-fighter can only out-turn its foe so much up to a point. Keep that up and sooner or later it'll end up being slow and low. Easy meat by then.

Turn fighting is mostly defensive in nature.

If "the foe" follows through the turn it would be going to be him to end up low and slow, not the turn fighter. And the LaGG-3S35 certainly is not a pure turn fighter. At low altitudes (< 1500m), the overall performance is pretty much as good as that of a 109F-4. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh, so the hard-turning pursuing fighter would bleed off energy, but the similarly hard-turning, or more likely harder turning prey wouldn't? Sure. If the pursuer were wise he wouldn't bleed off his energy just to keep up turning on a dime with the guy ahead of him. Better to be patient and maintain the initiative by staying high and fast, and pick the moment to scythe through his opponent. Let the other guy worry about dodging bullets.

You say the LaGG-3 35 is not a "pure" turn fighter, but it ain't the "purest" of energy fighters, either. Still, it's better at turning (for brief periods) than climbing or diving, let alone going fast, that's for sure.

Given two equally matched pilots flying their respective machines to their strengths, and with no interference from party crashers, there should be no reason that the guy flying the 109-F4 would allow himself to be shot down by the guy flying the LaGG, unless he does something stupid. The LaGG driver, however, has everything to worry about...

[Wildnoob]

I don't play from already long time but remember that one single mission of the IJAAF were you fly the Ki-84Ic in the defense of a harbor against the Soviet invasion has the challengest AI I ever met. I think the La-7 pilots there must have take some tips from Chuck Norris.

[JtD]

Originally posted by Treetop64:

Oh, so the hard-turning pursuing fighter would bleed off energy, but the similarly hard-turning, or more likely harder turning prey wouldn't? Sure. If the pursuer were wise he wouldn't bleed off his energy just to keep up turning on a dime with the guy ahead of him. Better to be patient and maintain the initiative by staying high and fast, and pick the moment to scythe through his opponent. Let the other guy worry about dodging bullets.

The plane being able to sustain the better turn will not lose as much speed as the other. In this case, it would be the 109 to lose more. So the AI pulling lead, following the LaGG in the turn, would have ended up lower and slower than the LaGG eventually.

The sustained speed performance of the LaGG-3S35 at low altitude is better than that of the 109. The 109F-4 can only get ahead for short terms when overheating (or when being AI). I don't think the S35 driver has a lot to worry about, unless, like mortoma, he already has an F4 on his 6.

[Treetop64]

Originally posted by JtD:

The plane being able to sustain the better turn will not lose as much speed as the other. In this case, it would be the 109 to lose more. So the AI pulling lead, following the LaGG in the turn, would have ended up lower and slower than the LaGG eventually.

Well, I agree with this if the 109 driver were stupid enough to try and keep up with any Soviet fighter in the example you give.

However, if the 109 pilot were smart he wouldn't try to keep up turn for turn with a plane that has better slow speed turn performance. He would use the strengths of his vastly superior speed, climb, and dive rates to dictate the terms of the fight and set up his opponent. He'd be fighting by his own rules, not the other guy's. With a well-timed high-speed diving attack run he could then execute a high deflection shot. If unsuccessful on this run, he'd just use his built up speed to climb away from a potentially fatal situation and repeat the whole process again, and NOT be silly enough to be drawn into a slow speed turning situation. This is just basic, common sense BnZ 101. It was a very successful tactic in real life, and is equally effective in the sim.

The sustained speed performance of the LaGG-3S35 at low altitude is better than that of the 109. The 109F-4 can only get ahead for short terms when overheating (or when being AI). I don't think the S35 driver has a lot to worry about, unless, like mortoma, he already has an F4 on his 6.

Of course the LaGG-3 S35 (or even the Series 4, for that matter) has better turn performance at slow speed and low altitude than the Messerschmitt, which is, once again, precisely why the wise 109 pilot doesn't allow himself to get sucked into low altitude slow speed turning situations with such an opponent in the first place. That's the whole point.

The 109 does everything else at all altitudes far better than the LaGG, however, and can use that to dominate the fight.

[JtD]

Mostly yes, in particular towards the point you're making, but the situation was that mortoma turned and the AI managed to pull lead, which, if you know the AI, means it followed into the turn. My statements are in that context.

The next "but" is that the S4 in general does not turn better than a 109, in particular not better than an F version. The LaGG-3S4 is a classic hit and run plane in early Eastern front scenarios, because the only two things it has are speed and firepower.
Likewise, the 109 does not do everything better than the LaGG, as I've already stated, the LaGG is overall just as fast, certain models actually being faster than certain contemporary 109's.
The 109 can only dominate the fight if the LaGG allows it to, same way the LaGG can only dominate if the 109 allows it to. Slight advantage towards the 109, but at the end of the day a good pilot will survive in either of these two machines.