Dynamic of Building and battles with neutrals | Forums

[Ghasteater]

Many games is used the same scheme of kingdom and heroes growing...

For example 3-rd heroes:

1st week Wanquish creatures 1-2 levl with starting troops and troops from Fort...
Building CityHall and Citadel + some dwelwings or TownHall + Castle + 6-7 dwlv.
2-nd week Build Capitol ANd May be 7 levl...
3-rd week Expanding kingdom, finish some units up to 6 lvl TAking New Towns. Build Mage guild E.t.c.

In Heroes 4 that stages can be wery quiqk... At end of 2-nd weekif not ereler "Main party" can be redy to "Kill almost all Neutrals"

In 1-2 series this tage can more longer... No problem was even if 6 lvl dwelv not build in 3 weeks...

What do you think? How long can be "prepairing Phase" and it is nicre if players easily can meet in battle long defore end of that stage...

May be Most powerfull units can build only at Capitol?

[Pitsu]

Number of buildings: I think about 20-30 buildings (upgrades counted in as separate building) is a good number. Even with plenty of resources it would take 3 weeks for full town. Top level dwellings should no way be available on first week. Not even with cheating. Since on-line players do not want too long games, but still want to enjoy entire game, completing most of the town in first month is necessary. Pressure on "most". Some very expensive buildings like capitol, some superior defence systems, magic amplifiers etc can take longer time. A finish-all-maps-with-less-than-28-days player can chose one super-structure on one map and next structure on next map. Although he would never have a fully built town, he still has access to all buildings.

[RexMund1]

as long as all the towns have the same number of steps I don't care very much how many steps that is.

there shouldn't be one town that can potentially get their top creature in the first week while another town has to wait until the beginning of week three at the earliest.

As for the time it takes..
I HATE sitting around not being able to explore because I can't fight my way out of my starting area due to random monsters so I hope that it continues to be easy to develope and expand from the beginning..and more difficut to complete the build

[OZFirst]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pitsu:
Since on-line players do not want too long games, but still want to enjoy entire game, completing most of the town in first month is necessary. Pressure on "most". <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nothing personal to Pitsu, but I will emphasize this every chance I get -- I hope that the developers will design no fundamental aspect of gameplay with mp'ers first in mind. They are a vast minority.

On the present question, however, I agree that it shouldn't take too long to complete your town, as long as it's not ridiculously simple, either.

Also put me down for one of the people disappointed not to see 8 (or 10 or 12)towns, but willing to be open-minded about six, as long as one of them is not the Fortress or equivalent.

[C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RexMund1:
as long as all the towns have the same number of steps I don't care very much how many steps that is.

there shouldn't be one town that can potentially get their top creature in the first week while another town has to wait until the beginning of week three at the earliest.

As for the time it takes..
I HATE sitting around not being able to explore because I can't fight my way out of my starting area due to random monsters so I hope that it continues to be easy to develope and expand from the beginning..and more difficut to complete the build <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I disagree. I like the options that H3 gave us. You could bypass several dwellings and go for the T-birds and Beh's in week one. You could do similar things with the fortress...getting wyverns VERY early. I thought it added to the stragegy a ton. I sure don't want a bunch of cookie-cutter build trees like in H4. Sure, you had options...but they were basically all the SAME options. Meh.

[RexMund1]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s:
I disagree. I like the options that H3 gave us. You could bypass several dwellings and go for the T-birds and Beh's in week one. You could do similar things with the fortress...getting wyverns VERY early. I thought it added to the stragegy a ton. I sure don't want a bunch of cookie-cutter build trees like in H4. Sure, you had options...but they were basically all the SAME options. Meh. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I can understand your disagreement Chuck but look at it this way...
What is the soonest you can possibly have Angels or Behemoths?

Now...what is the Soonest you can get Red Dragons?

Castle and Stronghold are able to gain an entire weeks growth (and depending on the scarcity of resources sometimes two or even three) of level 7 creastures over the Dungeon.

That is the kind of balance I meant. One town shouldn't have something in week one the other guy can't get until week 3

[C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RexMund1:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s:
I disagree. I like the options that H3 gave us. You could bypass several dwellings and go for the T-birds and Beh's in week one. You could do similar things with the fortress...getting wyverns VERY early. I thought it added to the stragegy a ton. I sure don't want a bunch of cookie-cutter build trees like in H4. Sure, you had options...but they were basically all the SAME options. Meh. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I can understand your disagreement Chuck but look at it this way...
What is the soonest you can possibly have Angels or Behemoths?

Now...what is the Soonest you can get Red Dragons?

Castle and Stronghold are able to gain an entire weeks growth (and depending on the scarcity of resources sometimes two or even three) of level 7 creastures over the Dungeon.

That is the kind of balance I meant. One town shouldn't have something in week one the other guy can't get until week 3 <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I understand your point. But the extra troop growth is off set somewhat by the extra buildings in the dungeon, the higher mage guild, the overall better troops, etc. If you make them all even...they'll be too ****ed similar IMO. I don't know too many people who can't win with Dungeon, Castle OR Stronghold. Do you? Just takes different styles. And the non-uniform development trees lend to players having to develop different playing techniques. Sure, in regards to creature production, some towns have advantages...but in general it's also in regards to creatures that are second-tier troops. Angels are the obvious exception. But the costs of said angels and cost of building/upgrade off set's that advantage quite a bit IMO.

[Dentari]

I'm of the same mind as chuckles here. Each town should have it's own unique playstyle if possible. Obviously some towns will be better in short games, others better in long games, that's always been the nature of HoMM.

[Pitsu]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RexMund1:
That is the kind of balance I meant. One town shouldn't have something in week one the other guy can't get until week 3 <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hm, you must really dislike Homm2 then.
Well, H2 is somewhat unbalanced, but the point is that the balance is not determined only by date when a dwelling can be built. bIt is the usefulness of the creature, its growth rate etc that count as well. Well-balanced towns produce always similar PEON values (or exp value of creatures), but is not directly linked to the number or levels of creatures. You logic is correct if all lvl1, lvl2 etc creatures in all towns are pretty much identical and with the same value. This is possible, but I hope for something more colorful.

[RexMund1]

I wasn't commenting on the lack of build equanimity in HOMM2 or 3 or even 4...
I was suggesting that I don't want to see the inequities extended further.

The main reason I mentioned that all should have the same number of steps is because I don't like having useless buildings in the towns so if I'm forced to build something to be able to build something else...make everything relevant and useful.

Chuck...no I don't think anyone has trouble winning with Castle over Dungeon or Dungeon over Castle. But if you make the Towns in 5 even further apart like I mentioned...
imagine having 5 angels in week 3 and meeting your oponent who just got his first dragon. Who wins?

I LOVE that different towns have different options and force different playstyles. I want to keep that. But the towns need balance or everyone will play the optimal town everytime.